"How Do You Feel About Abortion?"
Imagine you're a guy out on a first date and this is a question a woman asks you over dinner conversation. Why does she ask? MSN's article on five things guys love to hear and five things guys hate to hear tells us:
After a question posed as a test like that, there's a later? Poor fool.
This type of question is known among men as a litmus test—a touchy topic that women raise to gauge whether we’re politically, morally, or spiritually on the same page as them (the death penalty, gay marriage, and the war in Iraq also fit the bill). Sure, we probably have strong opinions. But we’re not interested in getting into them with you, at least not yet. After all, this is a date, not debate club. Let’s have fun and save more heated back-and-forths for later.
After a question posed as a test like that, there's a later? Poor fool.
posted by Helen at 10:37 AM
150 Comments:
A litmus test question like that coming out of the blue would call for a counter litmus test.
"I just learned last week that half of all fertilized eggs (aka embryos, aka blastocysts) are naturally aborted. Might they have had souls?"
If asked in a polite and neutral manner, it might be possible to at least be able to find out (regardless of politics) whether the person is thoughtful and reflective, or angry and emotive.
Not something I've ever experienced, but there would be a strong likelihood there would be no "later". It smacks of someone who takes themselves too seriously.
I think a compatibility on overall outlook is important, but that kind of thing needs to take a back seat and reveal itself in due course.
eric: Might they have had souls?" Now there is a GREAT way to end a tedious date in a hurry! Or at least get some fireworks for your effort.
That article was really funny! Those tips work well once you are married too. Thanks for the reminder!
I really like the other side of the story "how to sweet talk her" link at the end.
Becky
Sebastian,
I certainly agree that compatibility is important, but the kind of person who would subject a person they don't know to a test of political stance seems a bit of a bore and who knows what other "tests" lie in wait? It sounds like an interrogation, not a date!
One of my favorite date horror stories was the gal who, in the middle of watching a movie at a friend's house, suddenly decided that it was the perfect moment to convince me to join the John Birch Society. Needless to say, there was no second date.
Try your luck on eHarmony, and you'll get people like this all of the time. If you're not into Progressive Politics, you're simply not a potential mate.
I used to believe that I had to have someone with the same politics as myself, but then I grew up. Or, I realized that no one has the same beliefs as I, and it's not a sin to reject lower taxes.
I think you could have some fun with this actually. If she asks what your opinion on abortion is, you can confuse her by saying, "I hadn't really thought about it" (Who hasn't thought about it?). Or say something really off the wall, like "I'm for it. I think feminists should abort all their children." If she's pro-life, she'll probably laugh, and if she's a feminist, well, in a round about way, she got the answer she wanted (and what man wants to date a feminist anyway?).
Of course, if she asks what your feelings about gay marriage are, you can always respond, "Is there something you need to tell me?"
Or "Is there something I need to tell you?"
"A litmus test question like that coming out of the blue"
.....is a red flag. That kind of person obviously thinks she is entitled to treat people anyway she likes. Then again, she is just trying to make light conversation. It can happen. Then again, a person who thinks such a question is light conversation probably has other problems.
Relationships? Five dates!? What a waste of time and resources.
Litmus Test
Do they put out of the first date? If not, kick them to the curb. That's why hippy chicks are best. Pump 'em and dump 'em.
Stay single. Stay free.
Heh. Although, “My last boyfriend...” is a lot better to hear than "My current boyfriend..."
I now try to care less about the rude person on the other side of the table than I care about how I handle it and what that says about me. Rude people are everywhere and our culture gives those with "progressive politics" a green light to be bullies. But courtesy is contageous and so I try to at least do my part.
Rizzo, humor is a great deflecto-shield to get you through the moment.
I wonder why e-harmony is like that? It seems to me that having progressive politics be your driving issue does not cover a huge swath of the American public. Maybe those bully types find it harder to find mates - thus more of them constantly in the hunt. Oh well, at least knowing that up-front allows yourself to avoid a bad date with one of them brow-beating about Guantano or how Bush can't read. (Wow! make that up yourself did you. I laughed, I cried)
Becky
This reminds me of a news segment that I saw several years ago.
It was a series of man in the street interviews. The subject was abortion, and the question was "When do you think that life begins?".
The respondents gave the answers that you would expect: at conception, at birth, etc.
The last interview in the story was a middle aged married guy with kids.
His response?
"Life begins when the last kid leaves home and the dog dies."
I'm now 47, married, with two kids. I do believe that he was on to something.
I would not mind that sort of thing, because a litmus test works both ways. If a date axes me because of my beliefs concerning abortion, I would have axed her later anyway I bet.
My test would be to see how she reacts to my answers. If she had too many issue tests, I would get some valuable info: she is not the person for me!
Trey
I once got asked that, and I quickly answered, "Depends on who's being aborted." Works on everyone! Plus it's my own litmus test to see if they have a sense of humor.
I've had a number of dates where this question came up. In every case, there was never a second date. For good reason. I'm a law student--my work every day involves dealing with political pontification and people thinking I'm strange because of my right wing views. On a date, I'd prefer to get away from that...
sometimes you dont want to hear such.. serious questions on the first to 5 dates, only when its getting serious, would that question be valid. but to ask it over dinner, theres a time and a place for everything, over dinner is definatly not that time, and even more so the first date.
if someone asked me that, i would question are they really after me as a potential match, or just as a breeding male.
My response would be "I've had a vasectomy, so that won't be an issue."
(Ooh, horrible pun in there as well.)
"What's with "relationships" and the "magic word Five"?"
See "The Magic Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two". For some odd reason, the human mind does a particularly good job of remembering items in sets of 5-9. Going for the low end of the range lets you hit even the slowest audience...
Any man who hears the question of abortion proffered should either run away from her or ask her if she knows that the majority of children aborted are female and ask her how she feels about that. 'ya know what luv,dear, I am alright with abortion as long as it is a female' Humm, now that is a litmus test. But then again the issue is not really 'abortion' per se but about reproductive control for the woman--let us now mince words--it is always about control with the woman.
Perhaps the guy can also ask her if she is alright with ex-utero abortion? I wonder what she would think of that? It happens everyday to adults as well as to children only minutes old. If she is alright with that well then you know she is a 'compassionate' 'loving' 'sweet' 'demure' 'sensitive' 'sexy' 'empowered' 'liberated' 'progressive' 'non-hateful' 'tolerant' woe-man---don't we already have enough of them? I think the ex-utero abortion would look more favorable if this was her credo.
I also like on the dating sites where women can specify an income range for prospective partners.
I wonder how they'd feel if the guys could specify cup size?
Very crass, I think.
Off-topic, I guess, but I might be inclined to respond with the following:
"I believe that abortion is last-resort option, but in any case, the decision to become parents, or not, is a decision that must invole both parents equally. In the unanticipated event of an unplanned pregnancy, this still holds true."
I'm quite sure that this would terminate an otherwise pleasant outing, and this is probably, after all, not a bad thing.
Rusty
Seems like getting asked a question like that on a first date is a blessing. If the guy has any brains at all, there won't be a second date or a psychotic break up further down the road. Sounds like he's getting off easy!
but rusty on a first date, alarm bells would be ringing, and a klaxon shouting run away, run away..
The correct response is to take her hand in yours, look deeply into her eyes, and say something like
"All our lives are in the hands of Cthulhu."
True, aa, but I always feel compelled to campaign for fatherhood. And since just hearing the question sets the "do not call" flag in my mind, I would find it amusing to hear the answer even while knowing the outcome.
Rusty.
rich...life without a dog is only pseudo-life.
After a question like that, it becomes obvious that even if you agree with them, that this is the sort of thing that really, really matters to them. There are some issues that are hobby-based, and that's not too bad, but if they can't put politics aside, that's bad.
Religion is different, only because religion goes much deeper. If you can't agree on religion, you really can't agree on fundamental truth. People who expect you to just blithely accept fundamental disagreement are basically asking you to not believe that what you believe is true. And if you think that people can have sincere, severe differences here and have a good marriage, you're statistically wrong. How could a Muslim fundamentalist husband get along with a Buddhist or Christian wife who sincerely disagrees with him?
OTOH, if there is a big issue between the two of you, there is a lot to be said for discovering it sooner rather than later.
"Why do you ask? Are you planning on having one?"
This article is stupid. All 5 of the things "men want to hear" are also things women want to hear on a date.
As for the 5 things "men hate to hear":
1) Women don't want to hear about your ex-gf either.
2) Women get just as annoyed when you take calls during dinner.
3) The abortion question (and topic of this whole conversation) is an awful one to bring up for most men AND women, although there are some super-argumentative types that will jump at the chance to debate anything. Those don't worry about offending.
4) If you want a "girlie girl" then you have to be prepared to smile, nod, and "that's so interesting" when she goes on about shoes. If you repeatedly ask out women who wear designer clothes, expensive makeup, and obviously put a lot of effort into their appearance, you have no right to whine when they talk about it.
5) Maybe this is just because I am younger, but most secular women do NOT want to hear that from a guy either. For religious types (both sexes), this is a usual first date question.
I tend to get "I'll bet you're really $ucce$$ful..." as a litmus test more often, after which I finish my dinner, pick up the check and bolt.
When I get the Abortion question on a first or 2nd date (it's happened a couple times) my response is "I'll never have one."
If they think it's funny (or even worth a smirk) then THEY pass.
I've got very little time for the "Sex in the City" brigade.
I was seeing someone for a while, a roman catholic medical malpractice lawyer. We spent an awful lot of time talking about the conflicts she had between her clients and her religion. Quite fascinating.
If this question is truly asked on first or second dates, as seems to be the case, then all I can say, is the end must be near...
I'm starting to sound like my grandmother and proud of it.
Well, I for one wouldn't mind it at all, since I not only enjoy the hell out of a good freewheeling serious discussion, but find small-talk chit-chat both boring and yet annoying at the same time.
I'd much rather get asked what I think about abortion, answer, and then get to follow it up with a question about what *she* thinks about men deserving equivalent options in terms of legal divestment of their paternal obligations and responsibilities -- i.e., LC4M: Legalized Choice for Men.
To me, that sort of thing *is* part of 'the fun'.
Now, that being said. . .the other four "Don'ts" listed are indeed Bad Moves -- and the advice against them applies to plenty of other introductory social occasions in addition to dates.
I have no objection to such a question--the purpose of a first date with someone I don't know is to determine whether or not they are a good enough match to rate a second date.
As a Christian, I am mostly looking for a specific set of beliefs, which will then influence views on specific issues such as abortion--I normally don't need to ask such a blunt question, as after an hour of conversation I typically have a pretty good idea of someone's beliefs (such as the history major who volunteered that she usually wrote about the women's side of things and how they were oppressed, and that she'd had a hangover that morning from being out drinking--two signs of a significant cognitive dissonance between us).
This whole thread makes me glad (once again) to have been married for 20 years.
I don't date and don't miss it.
David - 18 for us, and boy, do I not want to be back "out there"! I had no idea the first-date conversation had changed so much; back when--in the '80s--I had trouble dodging the astrology-followers. And don't anyone tell me "that figures; you must be a Virgo"!
Boy, was I glad when I discovered Bruce was as turned off by that as I was!
If I was asked that on a first date, the context would have to be very well sorted for me to not see it as a big 'red flag'.
In other words it would mean things were going very well indeed or very badly! It's more likely to be the latter, eliciting a 'better get the bill, must dash, got to polish the leaves on my house plants' reaction.
Nick - South Africa
"'progressive' 'non-hateful' 'tolerant' woe-man"
Oxymoron.
It's a dumb article. It's a fantastically deranged question (for a first, or for that matter third, date). As Helen said, "There's a later?" I would be hard pressed to do anything with the rest of the evening aside from performing a cruelly subtle conversational vivisection.
Be that as it may, brainfromarous had the best answer yet.
Also, thanks to kirk for pointing out that hilarious article!
Funny. I've been asked that question by men--maybe not on the first date, but fairly early on--and I didn't realize it was the affront to decency and humanity y'all seem to think it is when posed by a woman. I appreciate knowing that a guy believes that men should be allowed to get a court order for an abortion when he doesn't want to be a father; it's useful information in determining whether or not I want to be physical with him.
Anyway, the only answer to that question out of the blue is, "Why do you ask?" There's usually a reason.
"take her hand in yours, look deeply into her eyes, and say something like "All our lives are in the hands of Cthulhu."
too many really funny comments to list but I agree brainfromarous gets the award.
"Why do you ask? Are you planning on having one?" is a close second :-)
Becky
Most kind, folks. Although I've gotten some harsh response from Dagonites.
Ahem. Seriously, however, there will come a point in an ongoing relationship where the Big Questions about beliefs, morals, etc. will come up. We all know that.
But a woman (or man) who drops that kind of bomb before the end of a first date should be treated with caution. Sure, maybe they just like to discuss politics - that IS 'small talk' for some.
But it could also be a warning that the person has no sense of boundaries whatsoever and those kinds of folks are trouble. It could also signify that they expect their friends and lovers to be ideologically correct, in which case every topical conversation will be a minefield.
What's the problem? I've asked women how they feel about paternity fraud being legal in the U.S. I've also asked them what they intend to do to change the legal environment that permits it.
They usually just get angry and leave. That's why I make a point of asking them early in the "date" so that I waste as little time as possible.
>>"...in which case every topical conversation will be a minefield."<<
But why so? I agree that this is a pretty deep question to ask on the first date, and my personal response might well be rare.
But such a conversation would only be a minefield if you were attempting to navigate your way around the 'hazard' rather than being honest about it. If you do anything other than answer honestly, THEN you're creating the minefield because you're liable to find youself eating your words and losing an otherwise desirable relationship.
Bruce Springsteen and Brad Pitt both had to divorce their first wives because of their desire to procreate, which was revealed after the weddings to be in conflict with the intentions of their wives. I suspect that those two particular minefields were created when either one or both parties failed to make their intentions clear at the outset.
Rusty
After a question posed as a test like that, there's a later? Poor fool.
So true. Why even put up with such behavior?
This seems like a worthwhile question to ask anyone before you sleep with them. Even careful people sometimes end up with a pregnancy, and if people disagree on this, it could lead to a lot of heartbreak and hassle for everyone.
5 Things I Like To Hear On A Date:
1. "Race you through the wine list."
2. "Worst pain I ever experienced was the first few hours after my hysterectomy."
3. "Wow... I haven't fired a gun in weeks."
4. "I'd love to."
5. "One more drink, and I'm all yours."
Of course, I last went on an actual date back in the Kaiser's day, and no woman has ever actually said any of those things to me, so most of the above, like so much about me, is probably horribly out of date [sic].
It wasn't all that long ago that I had quite a few first dates. I never ran across the abortion question. I can't see a second date after a question like that or any of the otehr bad behaviors listed.
Mind you, there were a few really interesting debates on first dates. On one we got into which Durrell brother was the better writer with me backing Gerald and her Lawrence. There were several dates for that one.
On another first date we got into a REALLY silly discussion of the bad-dates we have had over the years. I still talk to her sometimes and we're still talking about doing a book on atrocious dates: We might actually do it. We've got some dillies!
Now, radish, you're falling into one of those behaviors that will get all sorts of sneers: saying, "Oh, so it's ok if men do it?" when no one had mentioned men doing or not doing it at all.
I'd dodge that if I were you. Partly because no, of course it makes no difference the gender of someone who attempts such presumptuous twittery, but the article was about women doing it. (I cannot fathom a man being lauded for that sort of thing, and it not coming up suggests few others can either.) Partly because we're pretty much all on to that deflection toward irrelevance and find it both silly and disingenuous.
In answer to the people who ask, "What's wrong with finding out early?", my answer is: It's a matter of your date seeing you (or vice versa) as another human being, and not just a potential extension of themselves. A person who is willing to challenge, in a social/date setting, someone that they've only just met with controversial opinions is a person who is at the least self-centered and inconsiderate. At worst, they could be narcisstic, borderline personality, or even sociopathic. So if a first date hits me with a Big Opinion, even if it's something I agreed with, it would cause my psycho warning flags to go up.
Well said, Cousin Dave.
I used to take my dates to a hole-in-the-wall Chinese restaurant, order MuShu Pork, and see if they'd eat it with their fingers or try to fork it up. It was an infallible test of their self-assurance, especially if they had never had that dish before.
Also, the one I married insisted adamantly on going Dutch the first time we went for dinner, and I essentially had to trick her into going with me in the first place. With good taste like that, I knew I had a winner.
I usually pick my nose several times during the meal if particular questions come up before their time.
I roll the geege around in finger tip and thumb tip, flicking it once it becomes dry enough to actually control its direction of flight. All in direct view of the offending person across the table and those around us. That usually guarantees a one off date.
Sometimes I don't even have to expend the fuel to give her a ride home.
"One reason to be against the death penalty is that a disproportionate number of death row inmates are poor and black. I'm against abortion for the same reason: most aborted fetuses are black females. I think anyone who's pro-choice has to consider the inherent racism and mysoginy of wiping out a generation of black women."
If I recall correctly, during the campaign finance debates Eric Alterman wrote that he wouldn't have someone opposed to McCain-Feingold over for dinner at his house. Talk about a litmus test--refusing to be friends with people of a policy differences!
oops. Multiple typo alert. I meant-- "refusing to be friends with people over policy differences."
TO: Dr. Helen
RE: Eeeerrrrr....
....most men I know, i.e., REAL men--the sort that swore to lay down their lives for this way of life--don't think very highly of women who are willing to go out and kill the children they've sworn to defend....with their very lives.
Just an observation, backed up by 27 years associated with the infantry.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
I have been asked this question on a first date as well. My response:
"Well, I don't know yet. How do you feel about Pre-Nup's?"
Usually do not have a second date.
Q: "How Do You Feel About Abortion?"
A: "I don't know, I've never had one"
Rob Crawford said...
"What's with "relationships" and the "magic word Five"?"
See "The Magic Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two". For some odd reason, the human mind does a particularly good job of remembering items in sets of 5-9. Going for the low end of the range lets you hit even the slowest audience...
----------------------------------
Rob,
The study/reference you are probably refering to was done by AT&T back in the late 20's. The phone system needed to determine what was the maximum number of digits that a person could retain for 1 minute. Answer - 10. They also looked at the sequencing and found that groupings of no more than 4 was the maximum. As a consequence we have --
(xxx) (yyy) (zzzz)
North American NPA/NXX plan
(ww) (xx) (yy) (zzzz)
Euro City plan
Why did the US abandon the old style name-number scheme? eg Bradford425? In the early mechanical switch days of the late forties it was necessary to try to slow down the end user from dialing too fast. Using the mental trick of substituting name for number did the trick. When faster mechanical phone switches showed up it was abandonded for pure digits.
Ole Phone Guy
TO: All
RE: Another Way of Putting a Response...
...to such a question...
Q: How Do You Feel About Abortion?
A: Don't worry. You'll never need one on MY account.
Action: Getting up smiling and leaving the table...and her the check.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Never lie down with a woman who has more problems than you.]
"How do you feel about abortion?"
"It's sure helping to pay for my boat."
You know, it's times like this I'm really glad I'm married.
Good heavens, please don't ever make me go back out there.
"How do you feel about abortion?"
"I don't see it on the menu here. I'll just have the steak."
If it's done to "litmus test" you, then it's bad. But if it's done as a conversational topic I am all for that. I don't know why americans have so many rules about what to talk and what not to talk on the first date. I am an open minded person and as long as other person is the same, we can always agree to disagree. This is probably one of the reasons why I find americans to be very superficial compared to people from other parts of the world.
Couldn't it be a test to see how the prospective partner would act in the event of an unplanned pregnancy?
If the two don't agree on abortion, they probably shouldn't have sex. It's only a "first date" question for people who are ... er ... fast.
For those knocking eharmony for being swamped with progressives: I must disagree. I've been on there for several years, and I keep getting uber-fundamentalist Christian types. (As in relating every single question on their profile to Jesus...)
Guess it depends on your settings...
TO: Anonymouse
RE: Napoleonic Strategies, Anyone?
"Couldn't it be a test to see how the prospective partner would act in the event of an unplanned pregnancy?" -- Anonymouse
Sounds like an all to clever girl using Napoleon's famous Indirect Approach, e.g., Australtiz Campaign. This girl is playing a clever game to her own advantage. She may have her biological clock ticking so loud it keeps her awake at night.
Either way, the message to any gentleman is clear, 'Flee at once!'. It's a trap!!!
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Know your enemy and know yourself and you shall never be defeated. -- Sun Tzu]
Talk about 'Battle of the Sexes'!!!!?!
"How do you feel about abortion?"
Sure, I'm game.
Right here, or your place?
After a question like that not only will there not be a next date, there will not be this date, dinner, movie, or whatever this "date" was supposed to be. One does not bring nuclear weapons to small talk over dinner. In conclusion, I am soooo glad to be married and to not have to deal with that kind of silliness.
"How do you feel about abortion?"
Since I was already 5 when my mom tried it on me, well, I can say I was pretty pissed off. Why?
During the late 60's - and likely during other periods - in the military, there was a rule of etiquette in the O club bars: no discussion of sex, religion or politics. (Only heard the rule broken once when a drunk said the Viet Nam war was the worst thing that ever happened to the US. He didn't know a lot of history.) Always tried to follow that rule since then since it is a good way to avoid losing friends for no good reason.
I suppose discussing sex - circumspectly, of course - is extremely relevant to dating situations. But the marriage rate might be a lot higher if people learned to avoid religion and politics while dating. My wife and I - she is a liberal Democrat, raised in The People's Republic of Berkley; I am a conservative Republican raised by a father who thought Eisenhower was a radical. but we have still managed to stay married for 37 years, largely by ignoring political questions.
I guess there are few people with a taste for peace and quiet these days,
I think it's sort of interesting that pretty much everyone interprets the question as coming from a pro-choice viewpoint.
At any rate, I think I'm going to go with those who've said, "Isn't it better to know sooner?"
I'm not saying this from dating experience but from years of being too worried to bring up the wrong subjects with potential friends. Not abortion, but just interests. I've decided that it would have been much better to just let rip with all my strangeness, to let it be about me, just a little bit, because far too often I've found that I've *had* interests in common with people but never found it out. Instead of talking about those things we'd have both found interesting, I've spent years of association with people making painful small talk about toddlers.
I also have memories of blind dates that were one long "why did I ever let my friend talk me into this" only to find out, when it was all over, that he was going to the university I'd applied to and taking the major I was thinking of. And there was never another date there either because the date sucked.
Yes, those sorts of questions are normal "I'm interested in you" questions but they also put a person out there for rejection just as much as "this is who I am politically."
This year I've been married for 20 years. If something should happen to him and I face dating, I'll probably be on the rude side.
Oh, and to go on...
I think people over-estimate the necessity of finding someone like themselves. You can get all the right boxes checked but no matter who you marry, you'll disagree on most important things in some way or other. If you can't get along with someone, or they can't get along with someone, who thinks the other person is really wrong about some opinion they hold... it's going to suck.
For just such a question, at a time like that, I think the only possible response I could muster, is, "...Not nearly as good as I feel about draining my sperm into a condom during tonight's best-case one-off stand, because clearly you are a whackjob".
TO: Anonymouse
RE: Officers and O-Club Barroom Discussions
"I guess there are few people with a taste for peace and quiet these days," -- Anonymouse
My excuse is that I'm an ENTJ (Myers-Briggs Type Indicator). I LOVE 'discussion'. [Note: In my current status, I judge high school debate. Oddly enough the topic for Cross-X, this year, was close to that which I argued in 1968; Resolve: That the United States should adopt a system of universal military service ('68). Old home week with a unique idea of 'vengence'.]
At any rate....
John Wayne, in The Quiet Man, said, "Where I come from we don't talk about our women-folk in bars."
Now days, our women-folk are talking about us, men, on HBO....or so I've heard. [Note: I gave up on television in the late 90s.]
Tit-Tat and all of that, compadre.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. The US government stopped commissioning officers as 'gentleman' the year before I got my commission.
I suspect that it had something to do with West Points LCWB [Last Class With B---s].
What do YOU think?
[Ever people gets the society it 'deserves'.]
As with most things, I think the issues are best summarized in a South Park episode:
http://www.tv.com/south-park/erection-day/episode/417477/summary.html
"How do you feel about abortion?"
Well, never on a first date. And certainly not before even having sex. And only then if I can use my 'frequent flier' discount.
Dating. Feh! I recently thought the waters looked tempting. I stuck my toe in to see ... and got hit by an immediate chill. So much for that.
I am the One-Date Wonder ... one date, and then I am left to wonder where the hell he went. So, I speak with Zero Authority, except maybe as a bad example.
But for those who do lead somewhat normal lives, I wonder if blogging makes any difference. I mean, our opinions on all sorts of things are all out there available for all to see ... personal life events, problems at work and with family, annoyances, peccadilloes, hopes and dreams, and so on. I know of a few couples that met while blogging ... did having that information readily available either before or while dating make things easier? Or more difficult?
It would make an interesting study ...
I think a good answer would be, "I'll tell you in the morning."
Women would get more dates if they talked less. Men don't really need to hear everything about everything. We tend to only speak when we have something important to say. And I can do the "nod-along and "oh-really", but I usually wander off before the main course.
Mrs. Reynolds,
I was actually asked this once on a first date. I told her that I thought abortion was a crime against humanity and I could never be a party to one. That woman is now my wife and the mother of my two daughters.
By the way, she also asked me what I thought of, get this, teaching multiculturalism is schools. (She was a teacher before stay-at-home motherhood). I told her that America was the greatest country in the world, that it pissed me off that people sued over Christmas because their poor feelings were hurt, and that if people wanted to keep their language and not learn English, they should go home.
Oh, and she asked me what I thought about Albuquerque, her home. (We met while at Arizona State University). i told her from what I saw on Cops, it was a hell-hole and I would never live there. Guess where I live now?
There are no accidental people.
No one will ever show up before the judgement throne of God and surprise him.
"Wait a minute... where did you come from?!!?"
Just won't happen. Every life is the result of the creative intervention of God - every life, EVERY. LIFE. has value.
lots of good, smart-alecky responses here.
How about "anything Playboy is for, I'm for"?
TO: Brian
RE: Women
"That woman is now my wife and the mother of my two daughters." -- Brian
Let me guess....
....we can read about her other attributes in the latter part of Proverbs 31?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. I'm [happily] married to a similar woman.
Mrs. reynolds,
I had to share this as well. At law school, I said in a class that I would never marry a woman who wasn't a Christian or Catholic, who would even consider abortion as option if we were together and she got pregnant, if she wanted to put our kids in daycare to pursue her career instead of being a stay-at-home mother, and (I threw this in for good measure since we were in a criminal procdure class) who didn't believe in the death penalty. I was called everything from a sexist, bigot, to mysognist.
However, a quiet girl in the class who I had never met or spoke to came up to me the next date and asked me out on a date. I had to politely decline as my wife would have objected.
Good one Chuck!!
TO: uticn
RE: Except for....
"How about "anything Playboy is for, I'm for"?" -- uticn
...this one 'small' fact....
"16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein." -- Luke 18:16-17
An interesting understanding of this passage would lead one to think that God requires us to accept children as a gift. And if we do not accept them, then we (1) are not accepting the One from whom such gifts are given and (2) will not enter into the 'kingdom of God'.
Just an thought.....
....for YOUR consideration.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Children, n., messages we send into a future we shall never see.]
TO: Brian
RE: Yeah....
"I was called everything from a sexist, bigot, to mysognist.' -- Brian
...we can expect that, just because we value our wives and children more than we value our own lives. [Note: That from the perspective of an infantry officer. And, looking on the fiasco of the Brit Royal Marines and swabbies vis-a-vis Iran.]
But I'm used to it. I've been a sexist, i.e., willing to lay down my life for women and children, before. Came with the oath I swore back in 1970, en route to—but not quite making—Nam.
If you're passing through Pueblo, Colorado, on vacation or business, drop me a line, via the e-mail. We'll put you up for the evening and provide you breakfast in the morning....if you survive the scotch and cigars on the back deck by the open-pit fire. If you don't, we'll provide a brunch, in stead.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[A hand full of friends is worth more than a wagon full of gold.]
This does carry me back to those thrilling days of yesteryear:
-- The AR Loon who went round and round with me about hunting, then admitted she fed her dogs horsemeat.
-- The woman who announced she was too shallow to date a man 10 years older than she was (I believe this was called "tact").
-- The woman who would say, "God, that sounds SO INTERESTING. I can't this weekend, but you've GOT TO CALL ME and invite me for next time," when of course she was thinking, "How can this clotpoll ever have gotten the idea I'd go out with him?"
-- The woman who spent the first hour of the first date grilling me about career prospects, salary, LTCRs (long-term commited relationships), interest in re-breeding, etc, until I finally said, "Miss? Miss! Would it be OK if I finished my beer before I propose?"
I liked dating a lot, but there were moments when it seemed as if the looking glass had misted, wavered, and sucked me in to the world on the other side.
Chuck,
I passed through Pueblo once, in February 2005. Our daughter Emily was a little over a year old, and love Dora the Explorer. The live Dora show didn't come here, so we had to drive to Colorado Springs, about 450 miles or so to take her. I gave the tickets and the weekend as a surprise Christmas gift. Besides our mutual feelings on abortion,m religion, parenthood, etc., I knew she would be just as willing to drive up there just for a Dora show for our daughter as I was, and she wouldn't think I was nuts.
I will save the e-mail. I actually met Lee from Thinking while I was in L.A. I am a pretty friendly fella.
Oh, and thanks for your service.
In Male society these types of questions are not known as "litmus" tests. They are known as "shit" tests. As in how much shit will this guy take. Never answer an shit test directly. Ignore the shit test. Joke about the test. Turn the test back on her. exploit the shit test.
How do I feel about Abortion?
1. My sister had one last week, how could you ask!
2. I'm gay. It's not an issue.
3. I'm sterile. It's not an Issue.
4. I heard you had a couple of abortions; it doesnt matter to me.
5. Are you hitting on me.
6. I prefer oral, so abortion is not an issue.
7. I lost my penis in Afghanistan, its not an issue.
8. Girls scare me.
9. I had one when I was a woman.
Never answer a shit test and you will pass.
When dating you have a couple of options. You can read every self-help book there is on what to say and what not to say, then smile politely, ask lots of questions, keep your mouth shut and don't say anything offensive, and more than likely you will get asked out on a second date. One can keep this game up indefinitely and your man/woman will think you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. OR...you can just be who you are, say what is on your mind and ask some spirited questions. There is no guarantee that you will get asked out again but you will, at least, find out whether you and your date are compatible.
OK, like I said, these are called shit tests. Google it. or go here
http://www.fastseduction.com/cgi-bin/fswiki.cgi?Shit_Tests
Scroll down and read the Tyler Durden Posts.
Shit tests are good. It means she is trying to QUALIFY YOU. you pass if and only iff you ignore the test or make fun of the test.
Another version of abortion on the first date.
Chuck Pelto:
Hey ! you got a steady gig in Pueblo, CO ?
Your 'ol bud, me, Havoc, I want some of that Scotch & cigars by the fire-pit.
My First Dulcette Darling Daughter #1 will be graduating a little later than this time next year, from a Place with it's motto "For Christ and his Kingdom" your basic anti-jihad college. And she's not flying home for Nursing School, we're driving a drunk's map route e.g. great fly fishing spots, from S.E. Wisc, to White River Ark., to Vail Colo. to the Grand Daddy Green River below the Flaming Gorge Dam, to the Wind River Indian Reservation to the Deschutes, Pitt and McCloud Rivers.
She, me and Havoc Jr. #2, The Bulldog, are going to take a nice 2-3 weeks .
How bout we stop over at "Cocktail Hour" late May 2008 ?
Your 'ol dog & legbiter
Havoc
"I've never actually tried one, but I hear they're tasty."
My wife had an entirely different litmus test. On our first date, she matter of factly stated: "I want 16 children." She figured anyone who asked her out on a second date after that was really interested in her.
We only had 5 in 28 years.
Abortion? I've often thought, for some people, that it should be retrospective.
Eric said in one of the first comments that half of all fertilized eggs are aborted naturally.
Please, can someone give the source to show that that statement is true?
"Thank goodness my mom's didn't take."
It's easier just to ask if they believe that Christ is genuinely present in the host.
I mean, a few centuries ago the wrong answer would have gotten you killed, and today you just get a peculiar look and a muttered noncommittal answer.
If you do get a second date, at least you know they have a good grasp of history.
The really offensive thing about the whole article is that the author promises not to talk about "guy stuff" like the stock market. Really? This chick cares about her money just as much as boys do.
If you answer "pro-choice" she'll be more comfortable with getting physical with you later on. I know this firsthand.
She'd had an abortion and needed to know if it happened again I wasn't going to freak like her ex- had. It was the first question she asked of any guy she went out with.
Treating the question as a "shit test" and giving a flip response might've worked, too, but we both got what we wanted without me having to be a weasel.
Wouldn't a questionaire be more efficient and less likely to result in a wasted evening?
As for abortion, I'd want to know whether a person believes in a personal God (as I do), which would tell me a lot about the answers to any other potential questions.
On the other hand, if a woman asked me that question, it would probably save me the cost of a date.
In almost all cases, awkward questions can be adequately (sometimes marvelously) fielded with Miss Manners' standard reply: How soon do you need to know?
She recommended this for the answer to pesky in-laws asking young marrieds when they're going to have kids, but it comes in handy in all sorts of situations -- like this one.
but in a first date, there are questions you shouldnt ask, 5th date, fine, discuss it, talk about it.
but there are times when you shouldnt ask questions, like what if a man had said, well i have these terrible piles, how can i sort them out. and thats on a first date. thats just as bad.
there is too much pressure to be in a committed relationship after 2 hours, but what sort of person, would ask a powerful question like that, then jump into bed with them on that answer.
1st dates should be getting to know the lighter parts, then as the dates go on, you get to know more and more, i am not saying dont have that conversation, i am saying definatly have it, and the issue about children, but only after you have gotten used to how the other person thinks and phrases his or her answers.
This kind of stuff doesn't only happen on dates. Having been happily married for ever so long, I haven't been on a date for 100 years, but at Bar-B-Qs, cocktail parties, & alumni reunions people make similar get-to-the-chase comments, rarely in the form of a question. Never had one right off about abortion (not counting the stem cell ones), but lots of Iraq War, Global Warming, “Bush is Mr. Malaprop”, “Hillary is the Dragon Lady” type of statements.
I suspect that this is simply a manifestation of "The Common Assumption" fallacy, which goes something like this: Since I am so interesting, au courant, whatever, in this room full of seemingly interesting, au courant, whatever people, I can come up to anyone & tell him/her, in “I-brook-no-untoward-response” terms, my position on religion/politics/war/sex/ARod-Derek since this person will assuredly agree with me. And if I’m wrong about some person, I’ll simply stare right through him/her.
Funny, but if I take on such person, I’m sometimes viewed as the party pooper.
"What sort of person, would ask a powerful question like that, then jump into bed with them on that answer."
Umm, my ex-gf?
Ask for the check - don't ever answer the phone without caller id'ing first and block all future eMails.
Eric said...
A litmus test question like that coming out of the blue would call for a counter litmus test.
"I just learned last week that half of all fertilized eggs (aka embryos, aka blastocysts) are naturally aborted. Might they have had souls?"
If asked in a polite and neutral manner, it might be possible to at least be able to find out (regardless of politics) whether the person is thoughtful and reflective, or angry and emotive.
11:34 AM
You're assuming that the person who is asking a "litmus-test" question is anti-abortion. Why?
If the initial question is asked by somebody who is pro-abortion, then your litmus-test question is not a clever counter, but a reinforcement of pre-existing beliefs.
I welcome those type of litmus test questions, if she is hot and I want to bed her, you just lie or joke. If they are not hot, it gives you the perfect out to end the evening quickly. win win
Q-How do you feel about abortion?
A-I know a great little place around the corner where I take all my partners who need abortions.
I suppose there is a slight advantage to getting to know someone socially before actually dating them... you can talk about such questions in terms public policy, general populations, stories... it doesn't have to apply personally and directly to the two of you... until you want it to. Think of it as pre-screening. It may also weed out those that put up a good front, because they may not always keep the front up forever. Or not, It's still a roll of the dice... and only life after all - D
"And if you think that people can have sincere, severe differences here and have a good marriage, you're statistically wrong"
Hear that, honey? We're statistically wrong!
"if she is hot and I want to bed her, you just lie ..."
Assuming you were pro-choice, how exactly is answering "pro-life" going to get you anywhere?
And if you're really pro-life, would you really deny what you perceive as injustice to the unborn just to get some action? (Maybe you shouldn't answer that ...)
"What a dream!"
She was more of what you'd call a "nightmare", but she didn't turn psycho right at first. It took her some time to build up momentum.
Back to the question, "How do you feel about abortion?", it's the progressive female mating call. She's practically asking you up for coffee and yoga. It would be a shame to ruin the mood.
"How do you feel about protection?" is an honest riposte for a pro-lifer. Even a pro-choice guy wouldn't want to risk unprotected sex the first couple of months, and the concern echos and reinforces her concern about unwanted pregnancy. Most importantly it's honest.
In fact, responding with "protection" just might even woo the pro-lifer who happens to actually want you. If she's both pro-life and sexually active then protection is going to be even more important to her than the pro-choice girl. If "protection" wasn't the answer she wanted it's probably because she's not sexually active anyway, in which case you haven't lost anything.
There you are, first date, you're staring into each other's eyes holding hands, and she pipes up, "So, how do you feel about abortion?"
You reply with a grin, "How do you feel about protection?"
Opinions?
There are so many ways people can be coming from, looking at this subject.
As it takes two to make one pregnant, and a pregnancy occurs unintentionally, then two were not prepared. Passion or stupidity, they were not prepared. The expected outcome of the act is orgasm, and perhaps pregnancy. It's a natural thing, to propagate the species. Otherwise, becoming hornier than a hoot owl on a regular basis doesn't make a particle of sense. Neither does a woman's time each month.
I do not agree that the result is a "fetus". That is a scientific type term. It's a human being. Period. What else would pop out 9 months later? A Moto-Guzzi? A Countach Diablo? A 4 bedroom home? Who would abort those? Any other position on that is one of convenience for those affected for possibly the next quarter century. It is much easier to kill a "fetus" than an "accidental" or "unwanted" son or daughter.
Having three kids who mean more to me than I could ever express, I am personally dead set against abortion. And even more dead set against being part of creating a situation where abortion would have to be considered.
So yeah, protection makes perfect sense if sport sex is what you're after, and you don't really know the person. Considering herpes, HIV and other STS' especially.
And when one has to decide whether or not to take a human life over the aftermath, I just can't imagine the abortion route. It sure ain't worth an orgasm or two.
I'm glad I wasn't aborted. Even though I did not ask to be born, or have my choice of parents beforehand.
Wow, what an amazingly silly thread. I dated a bunch of guys before I found my husband and it never would have occured to me that political topics were "off limits" until he'd figured out whether *he* wanted to have those discussions. I wasn't interested in dating someone, let alone marrying someone, who hadn't thought about the political issues which I thought were important. If we didn't agree on such fundamentals as abortion, civil liberties, etc... why would we agree on topics as varied as our children's education, religion, or paint colors? I'm amazed by how threatened the self represented guys are on this board. What topics did *you* think you needed to repress in order to impress your dates? When, exactly, were *you* going to bring up things that were important to you? what's the magic number of dates before you feel comfortable enough with what you believe before you can be honest with thep erson you are dating? This has nothign to do with your political persuasion, it has everything to do with your level of honesty and comfort with yourself. And if you are afraid that your opinions (be they left or right) are too strong for the woman you are dating you can be darned sure they are too strong for that woman as a longer term partner.
I feel sorry for the women you dated, you all seem incredibly entitled, nervous, fearful, and shallow. Thank goodness all the guys I dated were lefties and had political interests and a sense of humor. I wouldn't even waste the time for a cup of coffee on any other kind of man.
and before you pile on and explain how wrong I am let me point out that I've been married for 12 years and have two kids and a working marriage. those of you still on the dating scene can get back to me when you 've found the perfect doormat or a true lifetime partner and let me know how you managed to find her. I'll bet you won't have found her by hiding your political beliefs from her.
aimai
aimai, you are misreading it, there are certain contraversial, confrontational topics that should NEVER be spoken on a first date.
would you want the first date you had, mention their piles, or how they threw up due to a bad meal the day before. there are certain topics that should never be asked on a LIGHT first date.
its like being asked how much money do you earn, within 30 seconds of meeting him or her. its inappropriate
of course a lot of women are "sharers" they tell you everything as soon as you meet them, from what type of periods they have etc.. is that really something you want to answer or ask the first time you meet a person. politics, birth control, religion are all very hard subjects to answer, as emotions are increased. so avoid it the first time. 4th dat or 5th or whatever but never a first. thats a sure way to be alone.
aimai,
You sound just like a shining example of the woman in the article I linked to who has to have a guy pass a litmus test. Good to know who to avoid.
Political, aimai? I don't think this particular thread is about politics....do you feel it is?
I do know that from what I've read of what you've written, you are a reminder of why a man never tells his spouse or girlfriend everything. Ever.
Funny. Last time I went hunting for companions, I got more than 500 responses in the first two hours of a profile, which included several riddles and questions that had to be answered. Many of those were political, philosophical, or artistic in nature. It also included some 'Don't bother to respond' checklists.
I replied to about 100 of those with a "weeder," a list of about 20 or so questions that had to be answered. Again, same topics.
Out of the 75 or so responses I got to the weeder, I selected about twenty to meet in person. With those, I engaged in heady debate, flighty conversation, and, with more than a few, some fun and commitmentless sex.
I retained one fiance (a very strong and sucessful person), three close friends, and two on-off type "let's go hang out" friends.
I'm a woman, a strong feminist, an academic, and a hell of a good lay.
But, overall, you're right. If someone is unwilling to get into politics, art, philosophy, or theology with me on a first meeting, you aren't worth my time as a partner. And if you don't respect women as equals, support to the death our right to do with our bodies and our lives as we please, and have a really good library, I'm not going to want to be around you.
Ya know, some people actually do want a partner. It's something you get to when your emotional maturity transcends the age of six.
BTW: BR549,
You are welcome to choose whatever best suits you.
For me, I don't care if it's a human. It's living inside my body. If it can do that outside my body, great. But if it can't, it doesn't have a right to stay if I don't want it there.
It's just that simple.
And for those of you that don't agree, I expect to see you at your local organ donation center seeing who needs one of your kidneys or lungs.
I am an organ donor, jenna. Says so right there on my drivers license. I don't need the parts if I'm no longer alive and they may prolong another's life.
And you don't have to worry about not wanting to be around me. I wouldn't want to be with someone who thinks like you, even if you are a "good lay". And apparently, I'd have to take a number and wait in line for that experience.
Ah, but br549, you can donate now. Only takes a few months of discomfort and a bit of danger. You can save the life already in progress now!
C'mon. Get your lazy butt up and sacrifice! Can I get a Hallalujah!
.
Jenna the library size queen ...
Though my eyesight is fine, some of my favorite books are in Braille.
And if you don't respect women as equals, support to the death our right to do with our bodies and our lives as we please, and have a really good library, I'm not going to want to be around you.
So you must have these first conversation checklists with everyone you meet.
Genuinely curious, not being sarcastic, how do you manage to get through life, hold a job, etc., only associating with people who meet your checklist?
Amy K.
Maybe she works at a university.
you mentioned a profile, as in a dating site or speed dating or whatever, that is completely different to the real world.
we are talking about first proper dates in the real world, you see someone and you ask them out, then you go on a date, then you talk to get to know them.
would you want my entire life history in that first date. what i want to do, what my politics is, etc etc etc.. why should you share everything at once, grow comfortable then discuss more, more comfortable talk more..
but theres that pressure to date and marry instantly. imagine someone you just met, asks what you want to do for your wedding, or how you want to be remembered in after you die, wouldnt that be a little strange and make little flags raise. there is a time and a place for everything.
and the VERY first date isnt the place. since you apparently filled in a profile jenna, you must have stated politics, or whatever, you get to know the person faster with a profile like that.
laika.....
Let's hope it's a university, and not a middle school.
Jenna,
agreed and agreed. I identify myself as a strong feminist, I am grad stuent who works as a rape crisis counselor and I'm vocal about supporting women and whatever choices they make regarding their lives in their bodies. (even if I don't agree with said choices, natch).
The last time I went looking for companions via the internet, I was averaging about 25 or so hits per hour. I found it neccessary to be upfront about my interests and my more strongly held beliefs. I wanted to (hopefully) avoid potentially dating men who were hostile to feminist women.
For the most part it worked. I meet some great guys, went to fun places, had great conversations, but eventually fell in love with my co-worker, who is definitely a man worth waiting for.
Jenna,
You wouldn't believe how big my library is.
---------
Q: How do you feel about abortion?
A: I'm not really worried about it; I'm only planning to do anal with you.
hey, Paul Harvey, what if Jenna isn't interested in doing either anal or vaginal with you? or does it matter what the woman wants?
aimai:
They find their "dates" or "companions" by mail-order around here. And no, they don't find it necessary or desirable to inquire as to the political thought of the lady in question. In fact, opinions of any type are rather frowned upon.
br549: "Let's hope it's a university, and not a middle school."
LOL, touche'.
His library's probably filled with titles like "Betty the Yeti" and "Buster Bunny". Y'know, all that sexy controversial subversive stuff.
"They find their 'dates' or 'companions' by mail-order around here."
It's getting harder and harder to grow pod-women from mail-order seed catalogs these days.
Once the Feds learn you're selecting plants by sex they just assume you're trying to grow marijuana.
(As if anyone pathetic enough to brag about how many hits her profile gets on a computer dating site has room to crack on the guys here. Please.)
Q: How do you feel about abortion?
A: I love sex so much, I'm willing to kill for it. And you?
My answer would be ambivalent. And then asked to clarify, I would say that I was right about where most of the country was - 1st trimester, it was up to the woman, and 3rd trimester should be reserved for saving the life of the woman. I would also point out that I had no intention of having to face the issue. Sex is great, but there are already claimants to my estate, and they wouldn't appreciate a one night stand sibling sharing.
I wouldn't be offended, and might even ask the question myself just to guage the militancy of the woman involved. I love and crave strong women, but too much militancy doesn't work for me in the long run.
Realistically, by the end of the first date, I pretty much know a woman's stand on abortion. If she is a militant feminist, I will know. And if she is conservative religiously, I will know that too.
Its weird, but I can be very intense, and if a woman can't handle that, it isn't going to work, and I know that w/i minutes. If she is too, then leaving the subject of religion open, and letting her jump in, if she desires, works great. And from that, I pretty much know the answer to the abortion question.
So, tonight, I was on the phone for some two hours (until my cell phone died) with a woman I have only seen four or five times. And I asked her what she was most proud of. After a bit of hemming and hawing (and after assurring her I left it open ended on purpose), she responded her relationships with her family, friends, and her God. I liked that answer. I liked it esp. since I couldn't answer the question as honorably.
A good answer would be "I think it's wrong unless you're pregnant." Her reaction will tell you something about her intelligence, sense of humor and ability to listen.
Q: How do you feel about abortion?
A: I love sex so much, I'm willing to kill for it.
I guess I'll never understand a pro-choice female with this litmus test. If I admit I'm willing to kill after sex, doesn't it follow that I'm willing to lie to get sex? So why bother with the question to begin with?
Most of the strangers and near-strangers I meet socially start discussing politics, sex, religion, etc., with me without any problems, and sometimes I start with these topics, and it does not usually cause any social awkwardness (the only exceptions being the kind of people who do not realize that with people you don't know these things should be discussed in softer tones than with your old friends). I don't see why it should be different for a date.
As for litmus tests: dating only people who agree with you on all political issues is overrated, but some political issues do have a strong influence on relationships, and abortion is definitely one of them. Since I know that I would have an abortion if my birth control failed, it's only fair I should warn a guy before going to bed with him, so that any guy who finds the idea unbearable has a chance to say "thanks, but no, thanks".
It's better to phrase this question in a way that is not very political or abstract, though: I've met a lot of men who were pro-choice but did not want to take the risk of abortion themselves, and even - surprisingly - a few who were pro-life but were willing to take the risk.
Why would u even think about having an abortion unless you were raped?
There is nothing to debate unless you are one of the many who choose to enjoy sex without responsibility.
A child does not deserve to be murdered because its mother was raped. This is unfortunate, but it is not the child's fault and the child should not have to pay with its life.
Let me be banal so that the masses and those whose parent have abandoned them can relate, and ask the question why our justice system charges a defendant with the murder of a fetus when the woman is pregnant and yet allows a Family Planning "doctor" to commit the same crime without repercussion?
There is no forgiveness for killing your own child through an abortion performed by a "doctor" who has taken the Hippocratic Oath to perform work that is in the best interest of his patient's health. Your debates are comical rationailization for your psychotic joy of carnal pleasure at the expense of a voiceless, defenseless human life with a beating heart. And if you are human, you will feel the unendurable pain of your mistake for the remainder of your life and eternity. How is this in the best interest of a patient's health and how does it does this do the patient and the child no harm "doctor?" I am deeply troubled by your arguments and ashamed that you too call yourselves human.
AP) -- The drugs used to execute prisoners in the United States sometimes fail to work as planned, causing slow and painful deaths that probably violate constitutional bans on cruel and unusual punishment, a new medical review of dozens of executions concludes.
Even when administered properly, the three-drug lethal injection method appears to have caused some inmates to suffocate while they were conscious and unable to move, instead of having their hearts stopped while they were sedated, scientists said in a report published Monday by the online journal PLoS Medicine.
No scientific groups have ever validated that lethal injection is humane, the authors write. Medical ethics bar doctors and other health professionals from taking part in executions.
The study concluded that the typical "one-size-fits-all" doses of anesthetic do not take into account an inmate's weight and other key factors. Some inmates got too little, and in some cases, the anesthetic wore off before the execution was complete, the authors found.
"You wouldn't be able to use this protocol to kill a pig at the University of Miami" without more proof that it worked as intended, said Teresa Zimmers, a biologist there who led the study.
The journal's editors call for abolishing the death penalty, writing: "There is no humane way of forcibly killing someone."
Lethal injection has been adopted by 37 states as a cheaper and more humane alternative to electrocution, gas chambers and other execution methods.
But 11 states have suspended its use after opponents alleged it is ineffective and cruel. The issue came to a head last year in California, when a federal judge ordered that doctors assist in killing Michael Morales, convicted of raping and murdering a teenage girl. Doctors refused, and legal arguments continue in the case.
More than 2,000 executions
In 2005 alone, at least 2,148 people have been killed by lethal injection in 22 countries, especially China, where fleets of mobile execution vans are used, the editors write, citing Amnesty International figures. Of the 53 executions in the United States in 2006, all but one were by lethal injection.
The new review was written by many of the same authors who touched off controversy when they published a 2005 report suggesting that many inmates were conscious and possibly suffering when the last of the drugs was given.
That report was criticized for its methodology, which relied on blood samples taken from prisoners hours after executions.
The new paper looked at the executions of 40 prisoners in North Carolina since 1984 and about a dozen in California, plus incomplete information from Florida and Virginia. The authors analyzed details such as the dose the inmates received, their weight and the time they needed to die.
Most states use three drugs -- thiopental, an anesthetic; pancuronium bromide, a nerve blocker and muscle paralyzer; and potassium chloride, a drug to stop the heart. Each is supposed to be capable of killing all by itself, but if not, the anesthetic is supposed to render the inmate unconscious while the other drugs do the job.
In 33 North Carolina executions, the average death time was 10 to 14 minutes, depending on the combination of drugs used, the authors report. Calculating each inmate's actual dose, based on his or her weight, they concluded that some did not receive enough.
"The person would feel either asphyxiation or the burning sensation associated with the potassium," said Dr. Leonidas Koniaris, a surgeon and co-author at the University of Miami. "The potassium would cause extreme discomfort, something like being put on fire."
Even the final drug did not always prove fatal as intended. At least one California inmate required a second dose, and the California warden has said additional doses were used in two other executions, the study reports.
Death penalty proponents complained the report's conclusions were based on scant scientific evidence.
"It's more like political science than medical science," said Mike Rushford, president of Criminal Justice Legal Foundation in Sacramento.
Steve Stewart, prosecuting attorney in Clark County, Indiana, where an execution is scheduled for May 4, said the simple solution seemed to be to give a higher dose of the anesthetic, which probably would not satisfy opponents who see all methods as barbaric.
"It doesn't matter a whole lot to me that someone may have felt some pain before they were administered poison as a method of execution," he said.
Dr. Mark Heath, an anesthesiologist at Columbia University Medical Center who has studied lethal injection cases, took issue with some of the paper's conclusions, but said it generally showed that concerns about lethal injection in its current form "are well-justified."
Editors said they sent the manuscript to three independent medical experts for review -- an anesthesiologist, a forensic pathologist and someone in charge of a critical care unit, plus a lawyer.
"We were satisfied" with the science, said Dr. Virginia Barbour, a British physician who is managing editor of the journal, published by the nonprofit group Public Library of Science. "The difficulty of a paper like this is that there is very poor evidence for all the kinds of protocols used" in lethal injections, but the authors did a good job analyzing what there is, she
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