Why Men (and Women) Don't Want Sex
I was reading a post over at WebMD on why men don't want sex. The expert gave a number of reasons for the lack of interest--medications, turn-off to aspects of the sex, hormones etc. that all sounded reasonable but I was struck by some of the anger, frustration and downright despair of the male commenters writing in about their lack of desire:
Here is another one:
And from another frustrated male:
After reading this, I traveled over to the "Why Women Don't Want Sex" post and saw 463 comments--some from angry women who had not been helped around the house enough to have sex with their husbands:
A number of the men had responses like this:
So what did I learn from spending the last hour reading comments from women and men about sex? That I need to go to work earlier and stop spending so much time on the intenet? Perhaps--or maybe I learned that instead of seeking solutions to what bothers their mates, many women (and some of the men) spend their time wondering why their own needs are not being met--and that is no way to fix a broken sex life.
Update: A Men's News Daily commenter to this post writes the following:
"Never forget: the single most revolting image, the nightmare that haunts women, is that of the happy, grinning, sexually satisfied male. They really hate that and the sooner we adjust our social expectation to that fact, the better." Truer words were never spoken--I think that some women really do feel this way.
Update II: Some interesting thoughts from Kim du Toit and Mrs. du Toit on men, women and sex.
My personal reasons for not wanting sex is disappointment, the word NO, rejection, lack of desire by wife, total indifference. I have heard every excuse heard by man. When the efforts by my spouse are a basically get it over with, you can hardly expect me to get overly excited. Since she consideres sex a chore - just let her read and book and fall asleep.
Here is another one:
After 30 years of marriage and great sex. Prostate surgery ended our sex life.Viagra was tried and it worked well. We had sex for several months when I was given the ok for sex. Sex became less and less, when I asked what was wrong she said "well we had great sex for all these years, had our children and I no longer feel the need for sex"
And from another frustrated male:
Ladies, please consider that this is not an article about your wants. It is just a statement of fact about what causes men to not want sex.
I'm a 27 year old guy, if it was up to me I'd be having sex 10 times a week. However, one of the things that occasionally makes me less interested in sex is that I have to do all the work to make my girl cum and to make myself cum as well. It's all well and good for her to want it, what about wanting to get me off?
FYI, guys jerk off. Get over it. It's not about you. Amazingly, sometimes I just want to cum. I can do it in two minutes by myself instead of the 45+ minutes with my partner (because I want to make sure she enjoys it). Of course, I'd prefer if she'd offer me a hand as long as I don't then have to return the favour.
Some of you may benefit by taking up some of the workload and offering the occasional handjob/blowjob without expecting anything in return. When my girl does that it sparks up my sexual appetite immensely.
After reading this, I traveled over to the "Why Women Don't Want Sex" post and saw 463 comments--some from angry women who had not been helped around the house enough to have sex with their husbands:
As a 28 year old woman, with the same man for 13 years and 3 kids, have a little insight on why women lose interest in sex...It gets beyond boring for us thats why. It becomes a repetitive chore, akin to washing dishes. And even though my man works, when he doesnt want to help me clean or care for the kids, why would I want to spend energy I dont have doing something that is going to feel exactly the way it did last time. Theres no passion, no excitement, nothing. Sex feels like being poked and prodded like your some cow. Is boring, repetitive, and dont you men realize, that girls still just wanna have fun?!!! Pay for us to have a makeover, then buy yourself something nice and please, brush your teeth..Then maybe we would want it too.
A number of the men had responses like this:
As a 45 year old male in a 6 year sexless marriage let me tell you, a lot of the reasons given here are just Bull.
Many, not all but many, of us men, help around the house, help with the chores, take our time making love, and still we are denied sex. We are loving attentive men who help in any way possible and do all we are asked, and still, we are denied relations with the women we love, and with women who profess to love us?
So what did I learn from spending the last hour reading comments from women and men about sex? That I need to go to work earlier and stop spending so much time on the intenet? Perhaps--or maybe I learned that instead of seeking solutions to what bothers their mates, many women (and some of the men) spend their time wondering why their own needs are not being met--and that is no way to fix a broken sex life.
Update: A Men's News Daily commenter to this post writes the following:
"Never forget: the single most revolting image, the nightmare that haunts women, is that of the happy, grinning, sexually satisfied male. They really hate that and the sooner we adjust our social expectation to that fact, the better." Truer words were never spoken--I think that some women really do feel this way.
Update II: Some interesting thoughts from Kim du Toit and Mrs. du Toit on men, women and sex.
posted by Helen at 11:36 AM
212 Comments:
This reminds me a bit of the whole breastfeeding issue. Lots of competing assumptions about what's "normal" and anxiety about why my particular situation isn't.
Competing assumptions:
Sex is primarily for reproduction. The pleasure is a by-product.
Sex is the greatest physical and spiritual experience that two people can share with each other.
A good sex life is absolutely vital to a good marriage.
A good sex life is of secondary importance in a good marriage. Love and commitment come first.
Sex is about love more than anything else. If you love your spouse or partner, their physical and personality attributes won't matter. People in love are just naturally attracted to each other.
Sex is about attraction and arousal. If you've gone fat, stopped paying attention to basic hygiene, and spend all your spare time watching reality TV, why are you surprised that you're not getting any?
There are lots of others. Can anyone tell us which assumptions all this public chattering will validate, solving all our bedroom problems once and for all?
I'd say, just try to be kind to your spouse or partner and roll with the changes. If the other person and your relationship is important enough, you'll find a way to make it work, with or without lots of sex. If this particular issue causes you discomfort - well, welcome to the human race.
Yours is the only site I have to regularly post anonymously! Thanks for good topics. I hope others post anon as well and share their thoughts.
My wife and I had sexual problems from the beginning. I was inexperienced and she had zero experience. Within a month or so of starting to take birth control pills, which she started a few weeks before our marriage, she completely lost her sex drive. At least that is what we finally fingered as the cause. Think about that. Pretty much when the honeymoon was over the honeymoon was over. I'm fortunate in that my wife is willing to have sex almost anytime I like and will do anything I ask (I'm pretty vanilla though.) She has no difficulty reaching orgasm and enjoys it once she is warmed up.
Lots of guys would love to have that level of cooperation. But I found that wasn't very satisfying. I'd waited and turned down sex for many years waiting for my wife and to have her not want want want me hurt quite a bit. She now understands how important it is to me for us to have a good sex life. It took her two years and reading what other men thought for her to understand it wasn't just me, but at least she does understand it now. She now pays attention to try to learn what I like rather than needing me to repeat it every time. She is becoming a little more open about what she likes but I have little info to go on. Sure, she can orgasm easily but I worry that it will become boring for her and we'll have more problems in the future. She now initiates sex sometimes. I literally talked, explained, begged for years and am only now seeing real progress.
All in all things are moving forward and I know that compared to many I probably have it pretty good. But I just wanted to make a statement for female readers since so many men are reticent about discussing sexual problems. For men, even more than women I think, our self image is tied up first in our job and second in our sexuality . If you reject us for sex you are, to us, rejecting us as men and its extremely painful. If you must make rejecting part of your life together than consider regularly initiating sex to make up for it and help show that you desire us.
I can't tell you how many times I almost gave up with my wife. In fact, in the end I had given up and told her so. We went several weeks without sex and that triggered for her that I was serious and that I needed her to put some effort into it. I feel very fortunate that in the end she responded. Neither of us believes in divorce and we were heading down the road into a sexless marriage.
Helen, obviously I'm not a sex expert. I hope I haven't said anything counter productive. I just wanted to relate at least one story with a semi happy ending. Before our marriage I always thought that sex problems shouldn't be a big deal. You just work on them together and it will all work out. That is true but both partners have to internalize that it actually is a problem and care about it. If your partner says it is a problem then by golly it really is a problem and I urge people to take it seriously before it's too late.
Bar patron # 1: What the hell are you doing? You're pouring a perfectly good drink out, all over your left hand!
Bar patron # 2: It's my girlfriend. I'm trying to get her drunk before I take her home.
anonymous 1:44;
Yes, I noticed at WebMD that most commenters there are posting on this topic anonymously. There are some topics where anonymous comments should be welcome, this is probably one of them. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Guys - avoid marriage at all costs if you expect to have a good probability of a normal sex life as you get older. If you do get married, marry someone younger.
Otherwise, stay single, you'll have a better sex life. I am divorced after an 81/2 year marriage that was largely sexless after year 3. I have three f"friends with benefits" (also divorced) and occasionally have a serious relationship. My married buddies in their 40s and 50s are locked into their marriages, and most of those are largely sexless. If they leave, they know they will lose most of their assets and their children. I am lucky my wife wanted to divorce me when my kids were still young, even though it cost me about $85 K and five years to get to a place where I have my kids 50% of the time.
My kids are happy, well-adjusted and doing great overall. If I have another woman in my house, who knows what will happen? I will never marry again - it's a living death for a man, but an option on a huge financial windfall if you're a woman.
"My personal reasons for not wanting sex is disappointment, the word NO, rejection, lack of desire by wife, total indifference." Pretty much exactly my experience with my wife. We haven't had sex in over two months, partly because I've been sick, but we only had it every two weeks when I was healthy. We've been married less than a year! She has already told me that when we have kids she will want sex even less.
Ironically, I married her because I thought it was my last chance to have kids (we're in our mid 30s). Little did I know it would be my last chance at sex, too.
She has gotten to the point that when she says no and I express disappointment or frustration, she outright laughs at me.
what these people forget that sex doesnt have to be about penetration by penis, it could be any form, maybe if you dont fancy it, you can do something for your wife. you cna spice up your sex life by doing other things. blindfold her, and tickle her. find spots. you dont have to do anything if you dont feel like it.. but know there is someone else who needs release.
This is such a sad thread. There is truth here, too, of course.
I very much loved my first wife, but there was utterly no romantic spark for me for her. She seemed to be attracted to me, but for whatever reason, I was not attracted to her (though she was and is very pretty).
I was young and pretty stupid (never wanted to admit problems, etc). So that marriage didn't last.
My current wife and have that "spark." Sometimes we are both too busy, and there is little physical romance...especially with two young children.
For me, older and I hope wiser, it is about trust and communication. I was always afraid to talk about sex with my first wife. I was a guy, and I should be all macho and all.
Trust is the other part. My current wife and I communicate very well in general. I trust her completely. She reaches out to me, not just about sex, but about the things that are important to me. And I work hard to do the same for her.
But you have to talk honestly, and trust completely.
This is not common in our culture, I fear.
So I read some of these threads and I see my first marriage. I am here to tell you that it is possible to find a partner who is not selfish, who reaches out, and who loves you no matter what. I found such a person.
I'm sure all the smart and snarky trolls will make fun of me, hence the anonymous business. But none of that means I am wrong.
Thanks for listening.
cadmus -- I am the poster before you. About half of our "sex" doesn't involve penetration, and I have offered to make her come with no reciprocation. She wasn't interested enough to do it.
I hip with "Guys, do NOT get married." My wife was a firecracker in bed when we were dating. We were at it like rabbits. Now? Once ever three or four weeks, if I can talk her into it. She 'just doesn't feel like it.'
Feh.
I'll hang myself before I marry again.
Anon
Too.
Much.
Information.
Helen wrote: "many women (and some of the men) spend their time wondering why their own needs are not being met--and that is no way to fix a broken sex life."
I'm confused. You quoted 4 men and only 1 woman, so why do you seem to suggest that mainly women who are only concerned about their own needs?
As for the 27 year old guy who wants handjobs/blowjobs with no recip. Hey, I'm cool with that. But the way he's complaining, it doesn't sound like he's into getting her off with no action for him. I've had lots of encounters with men when I didn't get off. It's fine. But how many times has it happened the other way? Not many.
Do women often take longer than 2 minutes? Well, yeah, I'm sorry about that. Biology really. Don't think there's much to be done about that. But the idea of me and my guy both getting each other off in at most 4 minutes? That's really not very appetizing anyway.
The main reason couples have problems? Because both men and women get DAMNED BORED with the same person over and over for years. That is the sorry truth, but it's natural and understandable as hell.
I am 37, male and single and I haven't had any sex for the last 3 or 4 years (don't even remember well) and the only reason is that frankly It just bores me to death. It wasn't like that when I was in my twenties. I think is just a combination of a natural decrease in hormones and the fact that I find women nowadays absolutely unsufferable in the way they think, feel, talk to and generally speaking interact with men. Frankly I find them emotionally repulsive and that makes it really hard to get excited about having sex with them. Good thing is I have found out that I am very happy with the situation. It is really liberating to have hardly any sexual desire anymore. I feel free.
What if you are plain asexual? In my case, cancer has messed up my- hormones, so, I have no sex drive. Zero, Zilch. Male hormone levels in the blood measure in the normal levels, I dont have trouble gaining and maintaining muscle mass from weight lifting and athletic pursuits, yet, I find myself to have become asexual.
PhysicallyI am that way, and psychologically, a lot of modern women bore me. Either are femi-nazis, or are at the otehr extreme, ready to put out woth anyone and everyone at the drop of a hat.
Check out : www.asexual.com
Women are emotionally repulsive? Hm, I'd like to hear more about that, anon 6:49.
How depressing! I am a woman married to a man who, for 4 1/2 out of the 5 years that we have been together, has had a very low sex drive. It's terribly frustrating and can definitely harm a marriage! Our sex life was so bad that it was the cause of my infertility - it takes two to tango you know. I had always had a high sex drive but married my low libido husband out of love. Even so, I wondered if love could sustain a mostly sexless marriage. When I hear about women who are very cavalier about their lack of interest in sex an how they are so annoyed with their husbands for wanting it - well, it makes me angry. Sex is part of the contract of marriage. And so much can be done to make it lively. There's no excuse for apathy.
At any rate, husband and I did some work on this problem, and finally after 4 1/2 years, he got lusty, and I got pregnant! Really, low libido persons in your dull marriages - you owe it to your spouse to at least try to figure out a way to find an interest! And if you don't do the work, you honestly have no right to blame your spouse if out of shear desperation they turn to infidelity.
Ok, can I leave a slightly happier note? I'm really happy with my married self sex life. Maybe I'm just closer to my single days, but being a single female in your 30s absolultely stinks if you want a "normal" sex life (or, at least a guy who will call you back a week or two after you hook up). I think that the complaints stem from the fact that with two parents working, and dealing with child care, everyone gets too tired; consequence is that you get in the habit of choosing sleep vs. sex when you have the ability to grab the sleep time. That eventually takes you from the multiple times weekly-to maybe once a month to long periods on end, which turns into resentment on both sides. Husband gets irritated b/c kids get more loving attention than he does. Wife gets irritated b/c husband doesn't clean and she just feels like she's living a daily drudging bore. (Which seems to be what is happening with my brother in law and his wife). I've been married to my husband for over 3 years, we have a just-turned-2 yr old, I am the breadwinner and work 60+ hour weeks. We started going down that path, but we agreed to cut back on some expenditures (we tossed the cable and a second cell phone, and won't be upgrading our car for a looooong time) so that we can have a babysitter come in during at least one night during the week so we can go out with friends, and are lucky enough to have awesome parents who live nearby are very happy to stay overnight with our daughter on occasional weekends. We take advantage whenever we can for our own date nights, or nights out in a hotel. It makes a world of difference. I get to be his princess, instead of worker bee/mom, and he gets to go out and reconnect with his fun-loving guy self. I get a nice spa day once every 2 months, he does his night out with the boys once a month. Dunno, but it seems to have worked wonders for us. We get a chance a couple times a week to say, oh yeah, THAT's why I love you so much, and a little bit of self time too to recharge. We also try to do one new thing with our house once a year, and spend $$ on one bigger "splurge" item for us each year, which always gives us something to plan, talk about and work on together on as a team that is totally non-kids related. Of course, now I'll go home and ask my husband what he thinks on the topic, and after I get the "oh god why do we have to talk about this" plea, he'll be on a totally different plane of thought... ;-)
Perhaps this thread is a glimpse of some of the true and unfiltered reasons marriage is on a down hill slide.
Does any couple who married think their union would end up in the conditions described here so far? The many half joking sayings we've all heard throughout our lifetimes, "cheaper to keep her", etc., all the way through, may not really be just jokes after all. Perhaps many marriage "truisms" really do begin with actual experience.
Got married, bought our first house - painted the nose, put on new wings, made the dream our own, etc. Thrills and chills no amusement park could touch. Just beaming with joy. Bought a bigger home, repeat process, move up again. The cup was just a-boilin' over wiff luuvvv. I sure have heard that a lot.
If, and, or when it crashes, one may realize they have become imprisoned by all that they own, by the time and effort they put into it. What the **** happened? Geeze, what about the kids? Do I want to be alone when I'm old? Lawyers and real estate agents must love divorce.
All things considered, no sex is that good. At least not after the first totally unbelievable time you never forget. And if you can't talk to each other, or pull in the same direction anyway, you may as well buy a blow up doll.
Gimme a back yard shop with enough wood working tools in it to make Norm Abrams cry like a baby, and I'm happy as a clam at high tide.
I have pondered the following, having heard it more than once. A man falls in love with a woman for who she is, how she is - and just knows wants to spend the rest of his life with that person right there. (somebody's been reading my mail)
A woman, on the other hand, decides he'll do for now. Once we are married I can work on him, make him better, nag....er, uh, nurture him, mold him into my perfect vision of a man. Can this be true? I know people are on their best behavior when its new. And maybe familiarity (if I spelled that wrong, name's not Webster, get over it) truly breeds contempt.
I think we should all be born old and stupid, getting younger and smarter as we age. That way, as we age down, we get smarter, stronger, in better physical condition, and all this gels as our libido maxes out. We could tear tile, rip rug and do the wild thing with the reckless abandon of youth tempered by the knowledge and wisdom of maturity. Hoowah!
The most breathtakingly beautiful thing my eyes have ever seen, and many years ago I must admit, was a young woman, nude, in the moonlight, with her arms outstretched, beckoning to me. Huh........well there it is!
Knowitall digression time. "Familiarity breeds contempt" does not mean "Knowing someone makes you hate him." It means "Allowing someone to address you without the proper level of respect causes that person to hold you in contempt, for you have shown by your lack of spine that you are unworthy of his respect." If, say, a wife starts "playfully" referring to her husband as "Hey, loser!" and he just takes it, he has discovered what she really thinks of him, and she has discovered that he's a wuss who tolerates blatant disrespect. Sex life goes down the tubes at that point, understandably.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled flamewars and trolling, already in progress.
I am utterly convinced that MANY MANY women (and some men) withhold sex out of anger, as a passive aggressive move. If you genuinely like your partner, it should just not be that big a deal to do it.
A second point: I think women become bored much more quickly than men, despite the sterotype to the contrary of guys chasing some young woman because he is bored with his wife. As evidence, look at the comment by the woman that Dr. Helen posted. So what if it "feels the same way every time"? Ice cream tastes the same way every time - that would be yummy, and I would like to eat ice cream and have sex every day for the rest of my life if I could get away with it.
I believe the problem lies in the fact that today people do not understand moral and ethical philosophy. Moral philosophy has seemingly been usurped by psychology but in reality people have been fooled by a counterfeit.
As evil is parasitic on the Good, pleasure accompanies the Good. People today pursue the pleasure as an end and by doing so they are never satiated. The advent of our boundless materialism presents so many options and variations that the will is confounded. As the German maxim states:
"He who has choice has torture"
There are so many diversions in the modern world that if the cultural context cannot provide the correct foundational reference, it may be hard to discipline the passions and thus provide the means to attain the authentic Good. Herein lies the problem. People pursue what they believe (feel, though not the same as believe) is good but after they have obtained it they realize it was but a semblance of the authentice good, a facade or a sort of half-truth that leaves the will desiring more. Since their 'vision' is defective and their will is defective as well, they continue to pursue what will never satisfy.
In the modern marriage one has the coalescence of several authentic Goods that can lead to authentic happiness. However, the narcissism, selfish, material plenitude, indifference and dare I say it----
(I dare for I suspect that many individuals who read this blog are quite high on tolerance---but remember----to be tolerant in a pluralist society, one must also be tolerant of what may be perceived as intolerance or their 'tolerance' is but Orwellian newspeak for semantical tyranny)
the moral confusion of modernity; the authentic Good will continue to allude the citizens of this country for some time. When happiness is allusive and the individuals in the marriage can only focus on satiating their personal desires, they are blind to the greater context in which they live. This will obviously affect each member of the family and will tear them apart if not lead to a spirt of abject apathy. And if you think this message is veiled Catholicism or Christianity, you would be quite incorrect---although there are elements of what I have written that are contained in Catholicism---this philosophical reasoning is but one part of Stoicism, particularly the Roman variation, the roots of which go back to Socrates himself but are also eloquently expressed by Aristotle. Perhaps we need to go back to the past to know how to proceed into the future. Just a thought.
i was making generalities anon 343. but in your case, you try, in others people dont even try.
sometimes as a male i dont feel like having sex, it doesnt mean i love her any less, but i know she has needs too. so i try to satisfy them, i want to give her pleasure, sometimes she doesnt want it, so she uses other things for me.
it keeps us together, knowing the needs of the other person, and helping them fulfill that need.
(i am using cadmus as an anonymous name i think its better to have a "name" rather than anon.. )
I asked my wife if she wanted to have sex last monday, she said "no, the kids drove me crazy today, how about tomorrow.
Tuesday I asked again, and she said she was ready, but she fell asleep as soon as we were in bed.
Wednesday I asked again, and she said "What, three nights in a row?"
This is why many other cultures accept freely the idea that a man should have a mistress, as long as you don't bring her home.
"He who has choice has torture"
That's the most asinine thing I've ever heard. The opposite of choice is deprivation or control, which isn't a viable alternative. Well, it could be if you are a sadomasochist or have some kind of subserviant or slave mentality.
Let me guess - you or your proxies should be the ones to control or limit the choices of others?
Re Stoicism: What kind of Stoicism are you talking about? I've always thought that the kinds of Stoicism that focused on endurance were rather cowardly. For example take tyranny and oppression. Enduring those has always been the easy way out. Resisting, fighting, and ending them has been the hard way. So the "Stoic" might hold endurance up as some kind of ideal when in fact it is cowardly. A nation of people with a focus on accepting and enduring would be a nation of slaves. Very helpful for a parasitic master class.(Not "class" in the Marxist sense, but a tyranical group of people.) On the other hand it does take some Stoicism to resist, fight, and overcome tyranny. That kind of Stoicism is something that I can understand. Of course it isn't Stoic suffering for its own sake, but with a worthwhile goal in mind.
Suffering for its own sake is just masochism - they have websites for that, imposing it on others without their consent is a crime and tort.
Concerning libido and the like, I am a male, 33 and I have a very high sex drive which I constantly have to combat and control. I cannot have meaningless trysts or sexual excursions. I have to have an emotional bond but I am in the same boat as many of the men here. The women are not worth pursuing due to their proclivities and attitudes. They are so narcissistic and imbued with a sense of entitlement that they make the prospect of a healthy relationship seem out of reach. Certainly one would not want to have a child with one of these 'creatures' for as long as they act like this I cannot really call them ladies or women for I believe they are emotionally immature.
I am not a mysoginist but we continually refer to ourselves as the most educated society in the modern world. If that is the case, how is it that a large majority (note: I did not say all) of women take their cues and viewpoints from the zeitgeist, Oprah, Dr. Phil, their peers, common consensus and what they perceive to be the 'norm.'? I thought we were supposed to raise and nurture independent minded individuals but it seems that America is continually producing persons and intellects of uniformity not that 'diversity' that is seeminly coveted by the status quo. Indeed, diversity is lacking these days--that is diversity of ideas and personalities. I guess what I am trying to say is that I am tired of 'plastic'women.
In response to "The women are not worth pursuing due to their proclivities and attitudes."
I've heard this before and when I do, it seems like the same guys are always attracted to the same women - women with 'tude. I have a sister, many girlfriends , etc. who are single and very lovely, nice and interesting women. Sometimes I think they have difficulty dating, because men, due to whatever reason, often are attracted to "the bitch".
I guess what I am saying to the commenter above is that there are many women out there who are not "plastic women". But obviously that is what you are attracted to.
For ten years I took the f*ck friend path thinking I was sophisticated, hey I don't even know where the guy lives we always met at my place. He never acknowledge my birthdays, or holidays, never enjoy ttime just being together, never there in time of comfort.
We had fantastic sex but the depression of living such a hollow life finally led me to stop that friendship.
From my perspective married people who believe the grass is greener on the other side don't ever see the rot going on under the lawn.
For me it isn't so much an avoidance of sex as it is avoidance of dating. I hate dating. Unfortunately for me (unless one resorts to prostitutes, or the one-night stand /singles bar-thing, and I don't), in our society, an unmarried person pretty much has to date to sooner or later have sex. People can get used to things, and my long periods of celibacy due to lack of interest in dating has gotten me used to little or no sex; and I generally don't miss it enough to overcome my distaste for the dating rituals. In certain periods of my life I have had "friends with benefits" and unlike a previous poster, generally don't find the experience hollow at all. I find good sex can deepen friendships rather than destroy them.
How does good sex deepen a friendship when the only time spend together is going after the orgasm?
From my experince 'friends with benefits' is just sex without having to pay a prostitute either male or female.
The word dating is passe, the word is hooking-up and perhaps people tend to hate dating is that it requires us to show others who we are.
I know the second wave feminist movement screwed things up, I was one them; we ripped out our wombs and replaced it with the vagina...no wonder men are bored having intimate relationships with the female, we have nothing really to offer except a good time.
I am 55, am told by a number of women that I am handsome, I make good money, I'm healthy, I don't smoke, and I'm not fat.
I've had sex one time in 3 years.
The hassle isnt worth it.
My statement that "I find good sex can deepen friendships rather than destroy them" seems to have seriously rattled one commenter's cage. I should have added, perhaps, the all-important phrase: "In my experience . . ." I can't say what works for me will work for you. I admit I'm a tad peculiar, but I'm an artsy, non-mainstream kind of guy (a libertarian "bobo," some might say, except that my income level is currently closer to "hobo" than "bobo") who associates with other non-mainstream folks, and therefore we tend to lead what mainstream society would consider "peculiar" lives. Since I've never had sex with a prostitute, I can't really rebut your statement that the friendship-with-benefits is the pay-less equivalent. I really don't have the first-hand empirical data. I will say that I do spend time outside the bedroom with my FWBs; maybe not a lot, but I tend to be something of a loner. (Albeit a relatively content loner, not the troubled, Travis Bickle type loner common in popular culture.)
As for people "hating dating because it requires us to show who we are," all I can say is: Maybe on your planet. On mine, from what I've observed, dating is one of the poorest ways of finding out who the other person is. In any event, that wouldn't apply to me. Women friends (some with "benefits," some without) tell me that one of my plus qualities is that "what you see is what you get;" i.e., a kind of constant auhenticity and lack of game-playing. But again, I'm not your average guy.
Anonymous 10:35:
What is the hassle you are talking about? What is it that women do that causes you to feel that sex is a hassle? Do not feel obliged to answer, of course, but I think it would be helpful to talk in terms of exactly what women are doing/not doing that is causing men like yourself to be turned off to sex. Anyone else can answer if they have had similar feelings.
I enjoy socializing with males and females but when the relationship with a female becomes close the rules begin to change drastically. It becomes more and more about the female's desires.
Is boring, repetitive, and dont you men realize, that girls still just wanna have fun?!!! Pay for us to have a makeover, then buy yourself something nice and please, brush your teeth..Then maybe we would want it too.
Buy her a makeover, buy her a diamond ring, buy her a car. TV ads implying a man would get lucky if a man bought these for the woman in his life ran constantly during the Christmas season. More and more, women's ideas of having fun seem to be closer to the "Sweet Sixteen" birthday parties than anything most men consider real fun.
Maybe I'm a stick in the mud but I'd rather by whitewater kayaking.
As a 37 yr old single male, I can sympathize with the frustrations of many of the men my age. But I think that it's important to apply some perspective here.
I think that it's fair to say that if these women had the attitude and appearance that they might have at 25, the trouble would seem worthwhile.
My pet observation is that many women don't really mature past their early twenties. They may take on more responsibility, but they retain the irrationality and self absorption of an adolescent. While this is often endearing in a pretty 25 year old, it's off-putting in a 30 year old.
The bulk of my sex life consists of people telling me to go fuck myself...
It's a shame that feminism was perverted to the point that women just became asshats because of it. It was originally about self-help, tending to your own education and career so as not to put the entire burden on the men.
But society is filling women's heads with all sorts of prideful nonsense and you have to tune it out. I think most men understand NOW that we have rights so it's time for a truce.
I am still surprised at 57 to be in a happy marriage of 14 years. We hassle a little over sex--honestly it takes energy and concentration to have good sex, and I'm mentally lazy. But we laugh about it, make a running joke out of it, play around, and it works out okay. He seems to be happy. He's 68 and probably gets more than guys half his age.
I think what helped me after many prior failed relationships was internalizing the teachings of my newfound faith, Catholocism. Whenever I found myself thinking disrespectfully of my husband, a voice in me said, have mercy woman! It takes a sense of charity, a basic theological virtue, and a dampening of pride, the worst of the seven deadly sins, to hold your tongue and quell bitter thoughts. None of us is that hot.
Oh, and always talk politely to each other, and greet him when you see him after work, even though you see him all the time.
Most the older single men I know are really, really bitter. Lots of baggage there and I don't think it's all their fault.
I'm in my mid 40s, and I've been married 10+ years, and have two kids. After the first my wife gained a bit of understandable weight, but after the second she just blew up. There's just nothing there sexually attractive anymore. Yes, I've gained weight too (about 15 pounds) but both actually and as a percentage she has considerably outgained me. She has purchased a number of exersise devices and begun several diets, but has never followed through.
Because of her size she is only comfortable in the missionary position, which is easily my least favorite of our repetoire of positions. It reached a point where I was simply so uninspired that I began having erection problems when we would try, which became a mental problem each successive attempt. (I have no problem when masturbating).
We haven't had sex in over two years.
If I didn't love my kids so much I'd ask for a divorce, but I couldn't imagine not being around them every day.
I will try to be gender neutral in this post.
What I am getting from all of this is that in order to be in a happy healthy marriage, one must have sex. Not only should one have sex but it should be pretty often. Not only should one be having sex often but they have to look like the want it and look like they enjoy it. And if one does not provide their partner sex often and look like they are enjoying it and not make it part of a reward system, then the marriage is inevitably going to collapse and the offending noncompliant party is responsible.
No wonder the number of single people is increasing.
DR. HELEN !
that instead of seeking solutions to what bothers their mates, many women (and some of the men) spend their time wondering why their own needs are not being met--and that is no way to fix a broken sex life.
Well said, but not as interesting AS the "Pacemaker on Viagra with hookers" commentary.
I think I'll continue to pursue revitalizing my boyhood passions which my wife as shown great enthusiasm for, fly fishing for wild trout, salmon and big bass,
and wingshooting and rifleshooting.
It's nice to have some insurance in case the great sex ever wains.
Econ-Scott
Econ-Scott,
Look, it's hard to beat the Pacemaker, Viagra hookers story, I'm doing my best here.
I've posted here before.
My wife and I have not had intimate relations in four years. I say it that way, not because I am afraid of the word "sex", but because it isn't just sex that isn't happening.
She has not kissed me on the lips in two years.
She has not put her arms around me in four years.
She has not taken my hand in many years.
The only time she has told me she loves me in the last four years was the time I lost my cool, told her "If this marriage was ever going to work, it would have by now" and started packing my suitcase. I've never had the guts to go through with it, because (a) I love my kids, (b) I hate admitting failure, (c) I have a lingering belief in the sanctity of marriage vows, and (d) when I lose it and threaten to leave, I'm stupid enough to believe the promises she makes to get me to stay.
I've never seen a perfect marriage, but I've seen a lot of good ones. I know it can be done and I believe in the institution. Just not for me. In fairness to my wife, I have some Aspberger's tendencies and I know they're hard on her. It isn't deliberate on my part. She was sexually abused by a relative when she was six -- a single incident that apparently has still left huge scars. Not deliberate on her part.
I did stupid things that have not helped. I had a problem with premature ejaculation when we first got married (please pardon the indelicacy.) I think she gave up on me about three months into the marriage. At that point, I did the really stupid passive-agressive thing, and started waiting for her to initiate sex, because I wanted her to show me that she was still interested. Guess what? She showed me she wasn't interested. After several weeks without, I'd break down and try to initiate sex which always went badly and left me kicking myself for my stupidity. She sensed I was kicking myself every time we had sex, decided it meant sex was just making me unhappy, and stopped having sex with me at all.
A few years later I did another really stupid passive-aggressive thing. I started sleeping on the couch, as a way to rub into her face the fact that it's awfully hard for a red-blooded male to sleep in a bed with a woman he finds sexually attractive but who has not the least interest. Guess what? She found that she sleeps so much better without me there that she's insisted I sleep in another room ever since. Seems I snore and it used to keep her awake.
It's tough not to get bitter. Reminding myself of the fact that I've contributed plenty of stupidity to the situation reduces the bitterness but only by replacing it with regrets.
I really, truly believe that marriage can be a wonderful thing. I really, truly believe that there is far more to a happy marriage than sex. I really, truly believe that sex can be an occasional thing if both spouses are okay with that.
I also really, truly believe that it is impossible for a marriage to be really happy when one spouse unilaterally ends the sexual relationship.
Oh --- and I was disappointed with the article on why men lose interest in sex. I was looking for some "how to" tips.
To address Helen's question regarding the hassle of pursuing sex, though it wasn't directed to me..
It's a hassle when you come to expect that the process of obtaining the sex is necessarily going to reveal attitudes and behaviors on her part that make the sex undersireable.
It's not the effort, it's the result.
The comment stating that what's tolerable at 25 is aggravating at 30 bears some truth. You just get tired of the neuroticism and sanctimony and passive-aggressive manipulation.
I used to think that guys pursued younger women primarily for their appearance, but as I've gotten older I've recognized the appeal of meeting someone who's still idealistic and less prone to seeing you means to an end.
Anonymous @ 1:02 PM said...
...We haven't had sex in over two years.
If I didn't love my kids so much I'd ask for a divorce, but I couldn't imagine not being around them every day.
Admirable priorities.
Dr Helen said...
...wondering why their own needs are not being met [...] is no way to fix a broken sex life.
I agree... unless wondering why leads one to realize that sex is like dessert. Forgive me if I sound like I'm channeling Dr. Ruth here, but the main meal in a healthy relationship is trust, caring, contact, and comfort -- four things every child needs from day one and never really stops needing. As adults, the more we give of those four things, the more we tend to receive them, which often leads to more satisfying sex. While the desire for sex comes and goes throughout one's lifetime, the need for healthy human attachment never really fades.
It would seem that this simple lesson is not being taught in our schools' sex education classes.
The message here is crystal clear. If you're a guy - stay single as long as possible, or, if you have kids, familiarize yourself with the law and try to spend as much time at home as possible with them to maximize your chances for custody when you seek a divorce.
Good luck to you, and if you find a marriage counselor who takes your (male) sexual deprivation seriously, please post his or her address. I'd like to introduce that counselor to the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy...
I wash the dishes. Make up the bed. Take out the garbage. Take the "walk and talks".
I take it slow. Am more than willing to do all the work. Am more than willing to do all the touching.
I do understand marriage is about much more than this topic. WE have everything else. But I lay in bed at night craving for human touch. Yes. She knows this.
One major killer of desire is contempt. I often see people treating their spouses in a manner that is openly contemptuous, and women seem to do this more than men. Probably because its more socially acceptable these days.
And when a man suffers a major career setback, his wife is very likely to leave him or at least to make his life a hell on earth. This is as true at all levels, for the janitor and for the executive.
There are women who will stay emotionally loyal to a man during a difficult time, but they seem to be a minority.
But I lay in bed at night craving for human touch. Yes. She knows this.
I'm sorry but if that's the case then you're married to one very selfish woman.
If you are doing everything possible to meet her halfway and she won't even attempt to do the same then you really know all you will need to.
If she knows how much it's killing you and won't lift a finger to change the situation then how much love for you do you think she really has?
"I also really, truly believe that it is impossible for a marriage to be really happy when one spouse unilaterally ends the sexual relationship."
I'm rethinking that, or at least thinking it needs qualification:
"Forgive me if I sound like I'm channeling Dr. Ruth here, but the main meal in a healthy relationship is trust, caring, contact, and comfort -- four things every child needs from day one and never really stops needing."
It's the absence of these that really hurts. Denial of sex is just the cherry on top.
Perhaps it's possible for a marriage without sex to survive if these other things are present. That brings us to the question of whether it's possible for these other things to be present if there is no sex. I think one of the reasons my wife denies me these other things is from fear that, if she gives me trust, caring, contact, or comfort, I'll start wanting sex.
She has a point. Beats me what I'm supposed to do about it.
RE: MARRIAGE
One of the anonymous posters on this thread asserted that male identity is closely tied to sex life: how often they get it, how much they perceive they are desired by their significant other. If this is true, I think it is very little known or understood. I could be wrong, but I think, especially as they get older, sex is not as important to women. As a result, it is easy to trivialize the male need--and even exploit it as a weakness. If more women understood that sex is really, truly important to men, on an emotional as well as physical level, fewer marriages would see these problems.
RE: DATING
The "hooking up" culture has hurt men and women both. Women on one hand appreciate the ability to sleep around without the "slut" stigma, and A LOT of men benefit from it, getting lots of sex with no commitment. The flip side is that few women are truly, honestly happy with this arrangement for long; and it's ultimately unsatisfying even for men. What this creates is a dating/hook-up situation where men expect to get it for "free," no strings attached; and women (who aren't really made to do it that way) start exhibiting manipulative or passive aggressive behaviors as a result of giving it away for free. Both end up pretty unhappy.
Anyway, not sure what my point is, except that the totally free, uninhibited culture of sex that exists now seems to have turned out to not be so great after all. Both sexes have become devalued in different ways, and in many cases, enemies of each other.
meade-
I agree... unless wondering why leads one to realize that sex is like dessert.
Who told you that? Sex is what a couple decides and agrees to. For me a sexless marriage would be a dealbreaker, even if the other things you mention were there in spades.
Most of this banter culminates in the fact that men and women observe each other through their own personal bias. A Woman is almost always expected by her man to have this gushing sex drive that her Testosterone hormones just simply cannot produce, and a man is expected by his woman to rely on her as his sole stability, and progenitor of anything that involves desire or intimacy, since this is regularly tied to him in her world. For those that have difficulty trying to see that men and women are different, and have entirely different motives for having a relationship in the first place, all this might be solved by examining several things about your counterpart.
1. Men have exponentially more levels of Testosterone (T). It is produced by the woman in the conjugation of androgneous hormones from the adrenal glands, so it is present in women, but not to the levels of what a man has, and certainly, she can't find any pleasure in doing something that she isn't hormonally motivated to do. The question here is whether women should consider sexual servitude as a part of their domestic responsibilities.
There is a prevailing attitude among women that this consideration is tantamount to male oppression; that historically, women have been oppressed by male aggression, without any equivocation of their own. This histrionic assumption is usually extrapolated from data mines that are rigged, or ones in which the terms of the debate are highly loppsided to be in the favor of a feminist agenda.
For women who are left scratching their heads, let me just ask you to try an experiment: have your man get you within thirty seconds of a big O, and then withdraw. I tried that with my first wife, and she didn't speak to me for a week. But to demonstrate, why don't you try perpetually walking around, being 5-30 seconds from YOUR big O, and see how you like it.
2. Men need to realize that although women are largely a mystery, most of this riddle may be solved in documenting her behavior in accordance to the particular day of her monthly cycle. Women have fluctuating hormones, and moods. Get over it. A woman does in fact require a certain amount of inculpability and forgiveness that just simply isn't available to a man.
For men who are scratching their heads, try to imagine a world where you go to sleep, and wake up every morning finding your job is now with a different employer. Women have fluctuating moods, and it is not their fault; get over it. Just as you have needs for sex, she has needs for many other things, stability being one of them; this is supposed to be provided by you, not the state. She shouldn't have to work if it doesn't please her, and you should be man enough to provide; nobody had a gun to your head forcing you to carry on with her. I say this as a man.
As historical examples of polygamy provide, women and men can settle their differences, and understand that their counterpart doesn't tick the same way they do. Not all polygamous examples are bad, you know. Furthermore, although we are largely stigamtized to the follies of polygamy, there are many pragmatic aspects of polygamy in which all parties are actually content.
This may be a little off topic, but speaking of polygamy, one has to be blind for the polygamous relationship that the state has with all of its female citizens not to go unnoticed. Women are very undulating in their moods, attitudes, and overall decision making, and as such, their nature demands that they grab on to constants to avoid being entirely dysfunctional. And, as women are naturally inclined to a stabilizing factor; say, a man, for instance, it isn't unrealistic to observe that the state has in fact replaced what used to be a man's bargaining chip; his stability.
A man can find great difficulty in finding any equivocation in a relationship, as what used to make women the commitment creatures that they are renowned for; nay, notorious for, has now been placed in the care of the state. And as a man in westernized civilization has no say in his family without the woman's expressed consent, the ostentatious female oppression, borne of her new-found freedom from answering to her male counterpart, is readily reflected in female-dominated divorce stats, and female inculpability as a whole.
As one reflects on the purose of having a relationship in the first place, one realizes that men are mainly dependent on women because their exponential levels of testosterone are begging for a modicum of relief. Yet women's call for a stabilizing factor has already been answered by the state, and it is eerily reminiscent of Parens patriae; the male becomes aware, however subtly, that he is nothing more than a sperm donor that has been given the blessing of the state. This would explain why the feminsist movement could find no moral rectitude in chastening Bill Clinton for his ostensible oppression of the female sex with his position.
I am the 3:31 anon.
For me, there are no "dealbreakers". I made the commitment. I intend to fulfill it. For better or worse. If I have nothing else, I will keep my word.
Life isn't always fair. We don't always get what we want. Yes, it hurts, but in the end, I intend to be able to say I loved and honored for bettor or worse.
"And if one does not provide their partner sex often and look like they are enjoying it and not make it part of a reward system, then the marriage is inevitably going to collapse and the offending noncompliant party is responsible."
That's right, and it sounds unreasonably onerous doesn't it? That's why a person needs some heart, some imagination to make this work. Because when you look at it in black & white it's kinda ugly.
I do think sex has become way too performance-obsessed. I blame the female side of this on all the women's magazine articles since the 1950s that focused on male impotence and female frigidity. I had a complex years before I even went on a date.
This whole nightmare is why, I believe, we bestow special perks in the form of MARRIAGE on men and women who try make that huge leap in sympathy and empathy to cohabit with a member of the opposite sex.
It's a real accomplishment, people!
anonymous 3:55pm-
I disagree with your contention that everything is the fault of the "hook up" culture.
This may sound biased, but I believe the fault lies primarily with the women. Many women have a superficial, materialistic, idealized concept of marriage. To a large extent I think this is created by the media - customer service reps in half-million dollar apartments in "Friends", $400 shoes in "Sex and the City", etc, etc, etc. So its a fantasy that is impossible for large swaths of the population to obtain. When most husbands can't provide this or it turns out to be different then they thought it was they bail out. Then due to the bias in the legal system the husband suffers the more serious consequences while the wife just goes out and tries again, often funded by the ex-husband.
I liken it to hermit crabs and beavers. Many women view marriage like a hermit crab's shell. If they don't like the one they picked they just trade it for another one. Whereas the more appropriate view of marriage is "building" a life together, like beavers build a lodge and dam. (Pun somewhat intended.)
Another factor at play is how aging effects the sexes differently. The "hook-up" culture is like Disneyland for women in their 20s. They hook-up, date, etc. and have a good time - and often with older men. Often even when they are supposed to be in exclusive relationships with a boyfriend, etc. So when these explode its no big deal because they're in their 20s - just go out and find another hook-up. They're in their 20s and generally they will be the most attractive they will ever be and since most women do not date younger men they have the widest selection they will ever have. Well things start to change once they hit their 30s. Their male peers the same age that aren't married are older and many are established, making more money, etc. They now have a growing range of selection in women and are becoming more appealing because they are established and are making more money.
So with women their range of selection in men peaks in their 20s and decreases from there. With men it starts at a low in their 20s and grows from there. So a lot of women take the benefits of their gender in their 20s for granted and in some cases don't treat the men they date so well. Then later on they begrudge men the benefits of their sex when some of the men their age start to date younger women.(Even though these women dated older men when they were younger.) So its a case of some women wanting to have their cake and eat it too and then later on trying to fault men for having cake at all.
So in my opinion its not the fault of some moral crisis created by the "hook-up" culture. It's just a case of some women having a grand old time in their 20s and not looking to build a life with someone and then begrudging men the benefits of their gender when they want to do the same.
And I'm not saying that all women are bad, superficial, etc. Just some.
I am anon 10:15.
I have never been the sort to look for one night stands, and of course only a crazy person does that these days.
So I suppose the "hassle" I wrote about is the hassle of the relationship/mating dance. In my experience, a great many women (I live in the "Southwest") think that all a man wants is sex, so they push away any man who even looks like he might move in for a hug or a hand-hold. They act like Queen Victorias who might, oh some day in the distant future, deign to allow some humble man the honor of escorting them into their boudoir, doncha know.
Really.
I think I'm all right. I'm not a prince, I'm not a prize catch. I don't have a Mercedes, although I could. I don't vacation in Europe, although I could. I like my lifestyle, but, frankly, most women I meet are looking for someone who is ready to take them to Europe and drive to the airport in a Mercedes. I refuse to play the game. I am not cheap, but I am not going to use money, which I have, to try to buy a relationship.
What I really shake my head about is when I hear a woman, usually divorced, usually 45-60, ask "where are all the good men?" Well, I'll tell you where they are. They're at home watching "24" because THEY'RE TIRED OF YOU!!
anonymous 3:31-
For me, there are no "dealbreakers". I made the commitment. I intend to fulfill it. For better or worse. If I have nothing else, I will keep my word.
I keep my word too. That's why the sex would be dicussed and agreed to before I would get married.(It also would be determined whether we were sexually compatible in the first place before we got married.) If she broke her word, that's what's called a "dealbreaker".
Life isn't always fair. We don't always get what we want. Yes, it hurts, but in the end, I intend to be able to say I loved and honored for bettor or worse.
Don't sermonize me, you blowhard. Adults discuss these things and determine them before marriage. That's the way you make life fair. I haven't been married yet, but you can bet these things will be discussed and agreed to beforehand.
Anonymous 5:08:
Tone it down--you can make your points without the insults.
Anon 5:08
You are welcome to discuss prior to marriage. But you are setting yourself up for a huge disappoinment. I did not say she would have to keep her end of the "deal"...I said that " I would ". Just because you make a deal beforehand, things can change. But I still intend on keeping my word, regardless if she does or not.
TO: anon 456 pm
FROM: anon 355 pm
The scenario you described IS the hook-up culture: women sleeping around in their 20s with no intention to commit, and regretting it later; and men (the ones who don't want to marry) doing it indefinitely. You just blame it all on materialism on the part of women. I would agree that to some extent, that problem exists; but I wouldn't call it the cause of the problem, merely a symptom.
I think too many people these days are selfish. On the whole, men are no better than the women they complain about. The only difference is the way society treats them, and therefore women are marginally worse (generalizing) because they can be. If society allowed men to treat women's needs as punchlines, and take the kids and the money in the divorce, trust me, the majority of men would initiate divorce.
anonymous 5:19-
You are welcome to discuss prior to marriage. But you are setting yourself up for a huge disappoinment. I did not say she would have to keep her end of the "deal"...I said that " I would ". Just because you make a deal beforehand, things can change. But I still intend on keeping my word, regardless if she does or not.
No, I'm reducing the chances for disappointment. That's one of the reasons I haven't married yet - I'm being selective.
You married guys are in a sad state. Find a woman on the side to keep you happy and spend as much time with your kids as you can - they grow up quickly.
The above comments about the hookup culture are somewhat correct. The rules of the game have changed, and marriage is no longer an equitable contract for many men. Neither the Dems nor the Republicans care about these types of issues, so you're on your own if your going to hang around waiting for changes in Family Law.
Take what joy you can find in every day, be it with your kids or a mistress. If your wife has checked out already, keep tabs on the money, but don't try to be a saint just for its own sake. When the (no-fault)divorce petition comes from your wife, you will only kick yourself for not making the most of lost time.
Helen said...
What is the hassle you are talking about? What is it that women do that causes you to feel that sex is a hassle?
Yes, do tell! Helen hasn't read enough anti-women stuff today, so please fill her need. Thanks for the predictable chuckle, Helen. You're as regular as clockwork.
Your gentle rebuke to Anon 5:08 might make me forgive you. Maybe. Anon 5:08--discuss and agree all you like. And then when you're the one with an enlarged prostate, how will you explain yourself? Oh, wait. You're not planning on an enlarged prostate, are you. Never mind.
knoxwhirled-
The scenario you described IS the hook-up culture: women sleeping around in their 20s with no intention to commit, and regretting it later; and men (the ones who don't want to marry) doing it indefinitely. You just blame it all on materialism on the part of women. I would agree that to some extent, that problem exists; but I wouldn't call it the cause of the problem, merely a symptom.
The scenario I described isn't the "hook-up" culture, the scenario I described highlighted some of the malcontents of the "hook-up" culture. The women who "hooked-up" with an eye towards building a life with someone and didn't treat them poorly don't regret anything - they're happily married. If I'm a car dealer trying to sell cars and I insult every customer that comes on the lot its not very surprising that I regret it later.
As long as the men (and women) that "hook-up" indefinitely and don't want to marry are honest about it, what is the harm?
And if the "hook-up" culture is so problematic, what do you suggest to replace dating and screening potential spouses, etc.?
charlotte-
Anon 5:08--discuss and agree all you like. And then when you're the one with an enlarged prostate, how will you explain yourself? Oh, wait. You're not planning on an enlarged prostate, are you. Never mind.
We haven't been talking about health problems here, the discussion has been about partners that are able to have sex. If I was with a woman I actually agreed to marry and she had actual health problems we'd cross that bridge when we came to it. (And of course someone maiming someone else and trying to use a health problem as a cover is just a criminal.)
I sure wish I new where the answer is. The happiest I have ever been was when head over heels. It happened because of one single person who was "it" for me. Maybe the moonlight helped. Later on, still head over heels, with the miraculous addition of our kids I am forever head over heels about.
Have a field day with it. That's who I am, that's how I feel.
I think the problem is that hook-up leads to shack-up and all the ensuing unhappiness that was the original subject of the post.
Here's how it is: you hook up with a guy a couple times, act all free and easy and hot, then realize that he's going to go hook up with whatshername tomorrow, maybe in the same bed, and you feel all jealous and hurt.
The way to "fix" that is to shack with him so you can keep an eye on him all the time. Of course, that doesn't stop him from hooking up but now it's more difficult and he's supposed to feel "guilty" about it because it's a *relationship* and there is this underlying assumption of "faithfulness," you see. But we're not ready for commitment, no.
Been there, done all that. And boy do I feel stupid.
NOTE: This is not "aimed" at anyone. It is merely on the topic.
Thankfully, our marriage is of a more traditional and covenant nature: we each take seriously the Pauline attitude of "My body is not merely mine, but hers; her body is not merely hers, but mine."
Having such a belief as a "preset" in your marriage seems to me a real key toward heading off issues like the one here. The Golden Rule is a good marriage manual, too.
(Yes, I recognize that it takes two in this arena, also!)
Can married sex become "same-old"? You betcha, but so can cooking. I'll bet few of us give up eating, though.
Well, yeah. But you don't eat the same thing every night. I love Big Macs. But I don't want to spend the rest of my life knowing all I can eat are Big Macs and nothing else.
Cham, sorry, I mean "Charlotte":
"Yes, do tell! Helen hasn't read enough anti-women stuff today, so please fill her need. Thanks for the predictable chuckle, Helen. You're as regular as clockwork."
Frankly, the men on this site sound sad and frustrated--if you want to see anti-men stuff, head over to the WebMD site on "why women don't want sex" and check out some of the 465 answers given by women, some like this one:
"So Im having affiar with a 56 year sweetheart ausome lover who really does treat me like a treasure. But I stay married and have crappy sex once a week with my spouse to save my kids emotional trauma. While trying to save myself from it. I do not feel giulty, and I am not responisible for my husbands emotional and pyschological deficientcies."
You are obviously very angry that men have any opinions at all on this topic or that a woman such as myself might be interested in what they have to say. You interpret my interest as "anti-woman."
So be it, but my question to you is, "why do you find it so threatening that men have a forum to discuss their ideas, concerns etc.?" Do you think that only women can voice their concerns? If so, you are the one who are "regular as clockwork" in your chauvinism.
Here's how it is: you hook up with a guy a couple times, act all free and easy and hot, then realize that he's going to go hook up with whatshername tomorrow, maybe in the same bed, and you feel all jealous and hurt.
Why not wait until you have an agreement to exclusivity? You realize this is entirely under your control, right?
The way to "fix" that is to shack with him so you can keep an eye on him all the time. Of course, that doesn't stop him from hooking up but now it's more difficult and he's supposed to feel "guilty" about it because it's a *relationship* and there is this underlying assumption of "faithfulness," you see. But we're not ready for commitment, no.
If you don't trust someone to the point you think you have to watch them why would you want to move in with them? That's under your control too. These situations seem to be the result of choices you are making, you can't blame the "hook-up" culture for that.
Helen, what post of mine are you referring?
Cham, Charlotte, Greg Kuperberg . . . aren't they all the same?
"Some of you may benefit by taking up some of the workload and offering the occasional handjob/blowjob without expecting anything in return. When my girl does that it sparks up my sexual appetite immensely."
Just imagine telling a guy this...huney go down on me...make me orgasm...then just fall asleep and don't expect anything in return.
Helen,
You're right. That woman you quoted sounds like a horrible person. I went out to the WebMD site and read the comments and found these gems:
***
"for my relationship, it is partly because his belly grew bigger than his thing. He wants oral sex with a stinky butt, I think not! Ive repeatedly told him nicely to wash it 5 or 6 times, he doesnt have a clue. I also agree the hurtful names cause a lot of damage, who wants to be intimate with the jerk who earlier said whatever he felt like and then expects his woman to be hot for him. I cook, clean, take care of this man, I also work 2 jobs, but he never does a thing around the house except once in a great while. He also cant understand why I want to go to bed at 9 am when I get up at 430 am. I love him but dont like sex with him. i did dress up for him a sexy outfit once and he called it a whore outfit and now doesnt understand why i dont want to do it again. i couldnt tell him this so thanks for letting me have my say in this matter."
***
"Here is my reason for not wanting sex. Its because I am required to have it at least everyother day because my husband says he needs it at least that often or my husband feels he is frustated and has the right to be mean and hurtful to me. If I do some how manage to get an extra night off I get to hear about how I don't put out, such a loving term. ALthough I do occasionally enjoy sex, most nights its a chore. His excuse for not trying to get me in the mood is that according to him I'm never in the mood so why should he try. I also think my being on the pill has some thing to do with my lack of desire but he refuses to get a vasectomy and after 4 kids I'm not willing to risk getting pregnant again. Sex is the main thing we fight about. I wish I had a husband who realized that the way he treats me has a huge affect on whether or not I'll be interested in sex. I'm sick of the meaness."
***
"For me, it's simple....he has embarrassed, humiliated, and treated me and our child like dirt. He tells me to go out and F--- anyone I want, and then threatens my life if he THINKS I did....I just cannot have sex with this man or (any other man) thanks to him. He has told me I am fat, useless, ugly, ...just to name a few..for 8 years...why would anyone want to have sex with me anyway?....If you ruin someone's self-worth, and you call them all these horrible names, why does he still want to have sex with me?.....I will never understand.
God help me."
***
***
So there. I've found some posts that make it sound like some men are pigs. But I'm not generalizing from a few awful stories to say that all men are like that or even that most men are like that. Taken as a whole, the comments on the WebMD site show that there people out there who have sad relationships and that there are people who have joyful relationships.
I'm not sure how you managed to read the same bunch of comments and come to the conclusion that mens' stories are sad, but not see that women's stories can be just as sad.
You can advocate for men without being anti-woman. Try it sometime.
Men are easy to please. A blowjob a week keeps the mistress away.
Thanks, charlotte. We all know men aren't supposed to complain about anything, and complaining about women is especially inappropriate.
The men here are now sufficiently chastened. We are contrite and apologetic for forgetting our true station in life.
Please forgive us, Mistress.
Oh, and , no one wants to marry you. Better start saving for the cat supplies and the inevitable hysterectomy that you will be needing in your old age.
Bye!
Welcome to the internet, where ideas that are usually unspeakable are allowed to roam free.
Today's unspeakable creature: the idea that circumcision -- male prepucectomy, to be specific -- can significantly degrade both male *and* female sexual functioning.
Apparently the male prepuce -- the intact foreskin -- provides a sort of rolling-bearing 'gliding action' in standard intromissive sex. Without it, standard intromissive sex tends to cause more vaginal chafing and rawness than otherwise, with consequential negative affects upon women's sexual functioning, enjoyment, and interest. Add to this an increased necessity on the man's part for rougher, more forceful thrusting, due to his considerable loss of erogenous nerve endings, and we're looking at at compounded problem.
Yes, average circumcised man, you most likely *did* lose a helluvalot of nerve endings, and yes, your sex life most likely *has* been significantly handicapped because of it. Nonsurgical foreskin restorers consistently report dramatic increases to their sex drive, sensitivity, functioning, and so on as they grow new 'fauxskin'.
Yes, average intact woman sleeping with average circumcised man, his missing foreskin most like *is* the reason he needs to pound you like a drum, and leaves you feeling all scraped out and painfully rubbed raw and unsatisfied. The intimate female partners of nonsurgical foreskin restorers likewise consistently report noticeable increases to both their own and their partners' sex drives, sensitivity, functioning, and so on as the process continues and more preputial skin is regrown.
No, I'm not suggesting that this is the sole or even the primary reason for the negative sexual experiences and rejection going on in the lives of the commenters here. But as more and more women start opening up about how crappy their married/committed sex lives are with a monogamous circumcised spouse, and noticing how their experiences match, it's becoming more and more obvious that this is a real contributor to the problem, and on which needs to be taken seriously, and addressed even more seriously.
Try reading up on it yourself, instead of just rejecting it out of hand:
http://www.sexasnatureintendedit.com/ , and
http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Nature-Intended-Important-Making/dp/0970044216 .
And remember, there isn't a single proper peer-reviewed citation to support the common assumption that the male prepuce is trivial and irrelevant tissue, and may be assigned a unique status of automatic disposability compared to all other healthy and functional human body parts.
That's right, there is *no* such citation, period, end of story. It simply does not exist.
acksiom,
What is this drivel? Your assumption is that men are so sex, pleasure, penis centered that each and every day they are just dying to heighten the fix by questioning their preputial status? As far as the relational aspect, do you relegate all potential solutions to material plane? These complaints have very little to do with the functionality of the penis and the vagina. If you even bothered to read any of these posts you would know that the majority of the men here are capable of seeing beyond the immediate gratification fixation and are more centered upon those relational aspects that, while not negating the importance of sexual satisfaction, are part of the wholism that modernity seemingly cannot provide. Finally, modernity will not be able to provide it by obsesing over the foreskin of a penis, so yes; I do dismiss it out of hand.
yukonyon 4:34 P.M. and 4:35 P.M.
Ummmm..... are you Bill Buckley? (humor alert!)
Once I ciphered your posts with my trusty collegiate dictionary, I found them fascinating.
Thank you for an incredible point of view.
I have two ears, two eyes, even two nostrils, yet only one mouth. And I'll bet, for very good reasons.
Here I go again...Man, I love this blog site!
I blame the fat.
Happy people still make plenty o love out here. Good physical love.
And I agree:
leave the foreskins on and teach boys to clean themselves. Yes, it can be done.
Acksiom explains why above.
I can't overemphasize the importance of "date night". Some posters have said something similar. I think after years of marriage, with the demands of work and kids and rotting drywall and replacing broken dishwashers, how could anyone not expect that even the most loving couples might fall into a lull in their sex life. And these lulls can initiate a downward spiral of resentment, disappointment, decreased libido, and even less sex. And so on. The key is to catch it early, and do something affirmative. Date night is great because it forces a couple to relate to eachother as partners and lovers, not simply people who take care of a kid and a house together (best movie line about this, from Before Sunset "I feel like I'm running a day care with someone I used to date"), and it takes the pressure off the rest of the week. Keeping it up during the tough times gets you to the point where you don't have to make appointments for sex any more.
Whether men or women are to blame for this is a pointless discussion. But I do agree that in the current zeitgheist, there is a strong tendency view male sexuality as pathological and femal sexuality as somehow organic and wholistic and therefore superior. It seems to be one thing that the feminazi's on the left and the fundies on the right agree on.
However, if we look at this discussion (and thanks, Dr. Helen, for the post, and thanks, readers, for the comments) without trying to blame women or men or the right or the left, I hope that women especially can learn somthing about men and male sexuality, pathologize it a little (or a lot) less, and realize that men are not the only ones who don't fully understand the opposite sex, and that we are not the only ones who suffer when reality doesn't match our expectations.
Now that kind of understanding would go a long way toward protecting marriage and the family.
My wife and I have been together since 1988. We have three small kids thanks to our fruitfull loins. If it wasn't for these little blessings, we would have sex much more often. But I can't complain, it's a small price to pay.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the "Bean Jar" theory, which is if you put a bean in a jar everytime you have sex the first year you're together and then take one out every time there after, you will never empty the jar. I was lucky, I knew this going in so I made the most of the first year now we still have a couple hundred beans left.
Dr. Helen @ 6:34 pm --
“You are obviously very angry that men have any opinions at all on this topic or that a woman such as myself might be interested in what they have to say. You interpret my interest as "anti-woman."
So be it, but my question to you is, "why do you find it so threatening that men have a forum to discuss their ideas, concerns etc.?" Do you think that only women can voice their concerns? If so, you are the one who are "regular as clockwork" in your chauvinism.”
Consider this quote – “Men are silenced now, literally, just as women were silenced in the past… women are ‘empowered’ to feel righteous without ever having to take seriously what men are saying.” (From – SPREADING MISANDRY: THE TEACHING OF CONTEMPT FOR MEN IN POPULAR CULTURE, by Paul Natahnson & Katherine K. Young. – pg. 67.)
Personally, I have given up on women – for reasons based on aesthetic, economic, and karmic criteria.
* Aesthetically -- I no longer pursue relationships with women because by-and-large, modern American females are no longer particularly desirable. Feminism has largely extinguished femininity, replacing it with the modern, aggressive, masculinized Go-Grrrrlz careerist prototype. In pursuing masculine forms of power, women have remade themselves into poor imitations of men. As a heterosexual man, I am not erotically attracted to my own gender. So, why should I be attracted to faux-men in skirts? (And no, I do not wish to see women sequestered at home barefoot and pregnant.) But please don’t ask me to find ball-busting, affirmative-action professional diversity princesses with toxic feminist entitlement attitudes and the requisite uncritical certainty in their moral, intellectual, and emotional superiority (over lowly, subhuman men) --- DESIRABLE as potential relationship partners.
Women chose to be ideological when they accepted feminism. And sorry girls, but your new dogma is just not sexy.
* Economically – I avoid personal relationships with women because, quite simply, a basic cost:benefit analysis will prove that the obvious risks far outweigh the presumed benefits. Forget about having to pay for the dates, the flowers, the jewels and all the other tokens on her toll-road to sex.
This is where one must talk about the lethal anti-male legal system that forty years of feminism has imposed. Marriage now is a system for expropriating a man’s wealth, and nothing more. It’s the only so-called “contract” where two individuals state their vows to form an inviolable partnership, unless one of them wakes up some morning and decides to bail because s/he is bored, inconvenienced, or unfulfilled. (And 70% of the time, the aggrieved party is female.) The Divorce Courts are where men are systematically harvested just like corn is de-tassled. The radically dead Bolsheviks would be embarrassed today to see how feminist gender capitalism has so exponentially exceeded naïve communism in achieving the redistribution of the oppressor’s wealth to the victim class!
Even co-habiting with a woman is dangerous now. She has 911 on the cell speed-dial and knows all about the Domestic Violence intervention squad that she can summon 24 x 7 to arrest the man on any false pretense she might wish to express. All 50 states have rape laws that provide up to 30 days after an alleged sexual act for the woman to decide (retroactively – maybe those Valentine’s Day flowers were an insufficient token of supplicancy?) that she was in fact raped. And, marriage is no sanctuary from this jeopardy, thanks to “marital rape” laws that codify the same female subjective standard of proof.
Oh, and if this wasn’t enough legalistic terrorism, the law now says that if I buy a woman a drink and she later comes to my bed, I may have coerced her and deprived her of the act of consent, so on her allegations alone I would be subject to sexual assault charges. Puts a bit of a damper on the romantic ambience that dating intends, yes?
So, economically speaking, women have become an expensive, risky luxury commodity that I have elected to decline. I also avoid loan sharks, prostitutes, and politicians for pretty much the same reasons.
* Karmically – I have discovered through objective critical reflection, dissecting my associations with women during my nearly 50 years, that the majority of the harm, injury, and suffering I have experienced in my life has involved women. (Economic loss, emotional devastation, pro-fessional betrayal, etc.) Now I am not by nature a masochist, and I do not associate being in pain with seeking pleasure. Having discovered the correlations between personal suffering and its proximity to the female gender, I determined to eliminate the apparent source of my suffering, as an experiment. Removing the offending irritants from my personal life proved to be an almost magical balm, restoring peace, tranquility, and financial solvency in short order.
I realize that my tentative conclusions do not support any kind of cause-and-effect hypothesis like making the preposterous argument that women actually CAUSE men to suffer. That would be unscientific, illogical, and hence, unmasculine. So I’ll just stick with my self-defensive superstitions about women.
In sum, I have taken to heart the feminist maxim that “the personal is political,” and have adjusted my personal politics accordingly.
Until I see women actively, vocally, and honestly seeking to dismantle the tyranny of a hate movement called Feminism Inc., actually listening to men, and returning to an ethical meaning of “equality,” I will take the prudent course and shun women. I don’t need to sleep with my enemy…
BTW, wounded former idealists always make the best cynics. Men, having been indoctrinated in Chivalry and now facing the consequences of their foolish and outmoded beliefs --- might be forgiven their current cynicism regarding the once fairer sex.
I don't know why women don't like sex. They will spend 2 hrs a day digging though your shit, and zero time to put out! Then they have the audasity to get angry with you when you want masterbate because they won't put out!!!
American women are spoiled rotten in general!!!
I talked to a Hooker once, she stated that she wouldn't have a job if the wives did their's.
Marrying a career woman is a bad idea aswell! She will spend more time doing her career than spending time with you!!!
Even so - the wonder, the mystery....
You could be standing at a store window, drooling over a brand new design of carbide tipped, thin kerfed, Freud 10" table saw blade - proudly on display, when you hear that unmistakable sound in the distance...getting closer....louder... click, click, clickety, clickety, click, click.... You know what it is...yes, that sound.....and yet, like a moth to a flame, you just have to turn and look. A woman in heels. You clear your throat, adjust your tie (did she just flip her hair?!?!) You watch her walk in your general direction, just going about her business. You watch her walk by... you watch her as she walks away.....click, click, clickety, clickety, click, click.
Somehow, the rest of the day is killer. Can't explain it.
Yes, Helen, that's right. Only two or three people in the whole world could be stupid or crazy enough to disagree with you. By all means, be childish and presume that anyone who does disagree with you is one and the same person. At the same time, be lame and avoid actually addressing their points of disagreement.
"What is this drivel?"
The 'drivel' here would be the misrepresentations and reactionary denial on your part, I believe.
"Your assumption is that men are so sex, pleasure, penis centered that each and every day they are just dying to heighten the fix by questioning their preputial status?"
Um, no; I don't assume any such thing. Care to cite your specific evidence for believing I do, using exact quotes?
"As far as the relational aspect, do you relegate all potential solutions to material plane?"
Didn't I just say 'No, I'm not suggesting that this is the sole or even the primary reason for the negative sexual experiences and rejection going on in the lives of the commenters here'?
"These complaints have very little to do with the functionality of the penis and the vagina."
Bold assertion!
So. Where's your proof?
"If you even bothered to read any of these posts. . ."
. . .and your evidence that I have not is. . . ? FTR, I did.
". . .you would know that the majority of the men here are capable of seeing beyond the immediate gratification fixation and are more centered upon those relational aspects that, while not negating the importance of sexual satisfaction, are part of the wholism that modernity seemingly cannot provide."
The thing is -- and this is just one of several immediately obvious flaws in your thinking above -- I also know that women initiate the majority of all divorces, approximately 70%.
As I also said 'But as more and more women start opening up about how crappy their married/committed sex lives are with a monogamous circumcised spouse, and noticing how their experiences match, it's becoming more and more obvious that this is a real contributor to the problem, and on which needs to be taken seriously, and addressed even more seriously.'
So. Where, exactly, in your call for "wholism", do you address women's behavior, and account for that?
"Finally, modernity will not be able to provide it by obsesing over the foreskin of a penis, so yes; I do dismiss it out of hand."
That makes no sense. Why on earth would one dismiss a solution to one contributing cause of the situation simply because it does not address other contributing causes of the situation?
The bottom line is - American women just don't care. Once they get that ring on their finger, they know with total certainty that THEY can fuck YOU over any time they want to, for any reason, or no reason at all.
I've had a much, much better sex life since my divorce. It makes me wonder, why in God's name did I get married in the first place?
DR. HELEN IS PIMPING ME ...
Imagine my shock to return after posting to Dr. Helen and finding on the spalsh page a box advertisement from amazon.com saying "Hi (my name) --- Help support Dr. Helen's work ... click to pay..."
So now, commenting on Dr. Helen's site means that my name and commercial internet transactions are being recorded and used to solicit money for Dr. Helen?
Perhaps Helen, you need to join the .xxx domain crowd if you are going to sell yourself in this demeaning manner?
Or, perhaps at least disclose the scam you are running?
Here's what amazon.com says if you choose to investigate how Dr. Helen is marketing you without your permission --
--- How does the Amazon Honor System paybox know my name?
When you look at a Web page, the words and pictures you see actually may come from several sources. Your browser software assembles the pieces and displays them as a single page. On the Web site you were visiting, most of the content you saw was transmitted from server computers used by the site's operator. The image made up of the paybox and your name displayed within the paybox was different--we sent it to you directly from Amazon.com. This allowed us to recognize you by name just like we do when you visit the Amazon.com Web site. Because Amazon.com's servers transmitted the image containing a paybox and your name within the paybox directly to your browser software, the site owner never saw the paybox or your name and never received any information about you. Return to help index.
Can I prevent the payboxes from greeting me by name?
Yes. You can determine whether the Amazon Honor System payboxes greet you by name. If you would like to turn off name recognition, please visit Your Account at Amazon.com. Under "Your Account Settings" click on "Updating your communication preferences." Then, simply click the appropriate check box. Please note that your browser may cache (store) graphics files for a period of time, so you may still see your name at recently visited sites.
-----
This is a new and improved form of subtle predation.
Dr. Helen, perhaps you have an explanation?
"Welcome to my Amazon Honor System PayPage. Payment is fast and easy. Just click Pay Now and the deal is done in no time. As always, your credit card is secure and your privacy is protected at Amazon.com.
You are paying: drhelen@violentkids.com (drhelen)
Privacy Notice: No information about you will be shared with the recipient. Learn more about privacy.
Total collected $3,855.00 from 281 payments."
See Helen’s link at ---
http://zme.amazon.com/exec/varzea/pay/T13EICX4L1VDCN/104-5285561-8933523
HELEN --- WHAT ARE YOU UP TO AND WHY?
http://violentkids.com/
Now I get it.
But Dr. Helen, more transparency would be appreciated.
Please don't shill MRA's to promote your documentary film.
I'd purchase the DVD just on the basis of its merit.
Don't link my amazon.com purchases to your -- or any other site.
Please let your posters know if their information is being sold.
Thanks, girl.
I hate to say this. after twenty years dating and courting (five of them married), I've come to a simple and obvious conclusion.
By and large, women don't like men.
You need only listen to women talk about men to get this. Just ask women what they think of men. They hate us passionately. Ask them.
For women, men are the temporarily pleasurable means to acquire a child; afterwards, men are just the paycheck to raise it. Again, listen to women. They say, it’s “my” child to their husbands.
One need only listen to what women actually say. By and large, they hate us.
anon 10:23
I couldn't agree with you more. There were several posts wherein a few individuals get the point. These women already have their husband, boyfriend who also happens to be their father, namely; the state. From the time they are young they know that if they are not "happy" (an arbitrary notion that varies with moods and the zeitgeist) they have the option to divorce, live on their own while securing the children and a monthly stipend to boot. All the time they play the part of victim and are 'empowered' by the silence of their family, society and friends who never question or condemn them for their narcissism.
Everyone reading this should know (and if you don't then you lack circumspection) that within this country there no longer exists a representational republic or a constitutional democracy, rather we now live in the United Socialist States of America. The same phenomena we are currently experiencing also occurred during the 1920s and 1930s within the Soviet Union: http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=view&id=954
Presently we are living atop a scaffold of sorts in virtue of the existence of modern technology. The stances and liberties (which are no more than unmasked licenses) which the modern woman takes is solely contingent upon that existing scaffold. If however, that scaffold where to collapse and the people were to fall onto the ground where would the women then be? They would feel and taste the hard reality of true equality; an equality that only nature can meet out.
Men have been totally and utterly usurped by the state and technology and though we are told that our nation would never permit a monarch or a state sponsored religion or slavery, we clearly have millions of queens, millions of wage-slaves paying for the 'right' to see their children and we are forced to fund the false priesthood of the judiciary with their acolytes the psychologists and the 'social' workers enforced by that ever noble civil servant known as the policeman.
These queens have the state sponsored ability to decide who lives and who dies irrespective of the rights of those to be born or those who shared in the conjugal act. And since the false priesthood of the judiciary has slammed their gavel and has written their 'gospel', it must be their right by fiat of the very same state these women love and adore. Need I remind you that it was this same court that said a black man has 2/3 of a soul---surly they have reformed themselves and now possess the faculty of infallibility and will never promulgate erroneous juridical opinions again, right?
No, my advice for all men, particularly the younger ones would be not to marry at all. Nor should you fornicate; these 'women' are not worth it at all. They have chosen their true love and they don't need you. Rather, you should devote yourselves most ardently to study and research particularly in the fields of literature, philosophy, history, theology and begrudgingly; science.
If you believe in a constitutional democracy or republic (I do not) these words should give you pause:
"That whenever any form of Government becomes destructive of those ends, it is the right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government..." loc. cit Declaration of Independence.
This country is dead and the women share an immense portion of the blame. One man's reform is another's revolution but this country needs to change one way or another. And again, the change and the affects of that change will as always lie squarely upon the shoulders of men for the women have become utterly malleable to modernity without circumspection or an awareness of the dangers afoot; especially to our children. One thing you can always count on despite all the platitudes of equality and tolerance; when foreign boots hit the ground in this country or on the day that there will be a civil war, all the women will cry, wail and beat their breasts and beg every man (the very men they were so eager to dispense with) to protect and defend them while using the children as their excuse and shield. I say, that when that day comes, and it will; every man should take the children and leave these women to be raped or killed while we save the children and let them populate a new and more equal society established upon a sublime rationality that was once called---self sacrificial and self effacing love. And therein lies the warning to that once noble gender known as women.
Wow, I'd rather read about scat, than some of these nutcase rants. And that's saying something.
Sorry, for those people with some pretty normal sexual problems here -- but other posts are just whack.
Remember anon 2:14
Plurality of witness does not equate to truth.
Anonymous 8:30, 8:46, 9:01,9:06:
Amazon is recognizing you because you've shopped with them and it's put a cookie on your machine. That's why you see the "Hi ___" greeting. I don't know who you are, because they don't share that information with me. If you don't like me taking donations, the way that most bloggers do, then please visit some blogs that don't. Reading the Dr. Helen blog is not compulsory!
In the meantime, spare us the silly paranoid conspiracy theories. We have enough to worry about in this world without that kind of stuff.
I've been scratching my head over this blog, trying to figure out helen's point. Rational discussion didn't seem to be what she's after but now I finally get it. This blog is a safety vent for unabomber types! Helen is performing a vital public service by letting these whack-jobs sound off. (I was going to call them blowhards, but that would be an insult too harsh for Helen's tender ears.) Maybe if they can say their piece here, they won't go postal. So thanks, Helen, for doing your part to keep us all safer. Thanks for being the one woman who will listen to these men and for giving them someone to fantasize about. Those photos you post of yourself probably do the trick. Oh, and thanks for protecting us from silly paranoid conspiracy theories, too. That means a lot.
annonymous 8:30, etc.
Not a computer software wizard here. But I do delete all my cookies (automatically, actually) every time I shut Firefox down. History, too. But I don't really know how effective it is. If one simply does not like what happens to their identities when out in the world wide net "world", don't go. Whenever you hit the web, the first thing your computer does is identify itself. If someone wants to know who you are, it is easy enough. How do you think all these kids are getting nailed for downloading music for free? Hell, almost every time you click your mouse, you are tagged and followed. Blame Gates, Google, Lycos, your service provider, associated laws, on and on. And keep your cell phone turned off if you don't want to be traced everywhere you go. It tells the network where it is when it's turned on. And your name is attached to its I.D. That's how you are able to receive calls from Miami, when working in Seattle. If you make online purchases, it's a safe bet you are being tracked everywhere you go, because someone wants to know what you like to buy so they can solicit you. They "follow you around". Spam in your e-mail, you know. There are many who visit here who know infinitely more than me about this. If you want to get mad, get mad at yourself. Know what you are getting yourself into when you hit cyber space. No matter what sex you are.
Now, how do I tie this in with the battle of the sexes that has become one of the many battles for control of the human race?
Anonymous 8:59 AM:
Is that you, Ted?
Good grief reading this was depressing - so many complaints, so little communication.
While the list of reasons was fairly good, there are some factors I have seen and experienced which were either overlooked or touched on lightly.
"The personal is political and the political is personal"
The MND comment about women hating nothing more than seeing a man happy and sexually satisfied reflects the impression that men get from listening to what women say about their husbands, boyfriends, and sex. Most men who have not lived under a rock for the past 40 years have had their libido beaten to death with the entire "rape" issue. Every act of sex is both a potential for 18+ years of child support, as well as a potential rape charge. "Sex" has been subtly redefined as "what the woman wants, when she wants it, how she wants it" and everything else has become "rape." A few years ago I wandered into the tar pit which feminism has made of romantic relationships when a woman I was dating expressed her "fear" that I might be "a rapist, or child molester, or serial killer" because I had a copy of Playboy laying around my house. A normal, healthy, interest in sex on the part of men has been pathologized and criminalized by the MacKinnon-Dworkinites and it has poisoned both women's attituded toward men and the body of criminal law which now intrudes into the most (formerly) personal and intimate relationships. Not suprisingly, I was never able to feel attraction to her again after she made that comment.
Consider the case of Jonathon Previtt and all the other young boys slammed with sexual harassment charges because they express liking girls. Sex is portrayed as a very very bad thing unless it is exactly what the female wants, in which case it suddenly becomes an obligation on the part of the male. Culturally, we are teaching young boys that their sexual interest is a very bad, in fact criminal, thing. Children have to learn the values of the culture they live in and fit in, and the current sexual witchhunt atmosphere is teaching them that liking females and being attracted to them is really quite horrible and that they will be punished severely for it. A culture penalizes behaviors that they want to stamp out and I expect that women over the next few decades will encounter a lot of men who had their interest in women stomped out of them when they were boys.
Which leads to -
Dehumanization of men to the level of flesh and blood vibrators.
The notion that many women seem to have of men that we are constantly horny mindless beasts in a perpetual state of rut is unbelievably destructive to personal relationships. Women have thousands of excuses why they are not in the mood for sex at the moment, and men must simply accept them, but let a man show the same kind of human complexity and he is a complete and utter "jerk."
Years ago I dated a woman whose idea of foreplay was to lie in bed running her mouth 100 miles an hour about all the "jerks" she worked with and how she got even with them while humping the side of my leg. It was such a complete turn-OFF that I began to pretend that I fell asleep immediately just so I could avoid it. When I attempted to discuss the subject with her, she absolutely refused to take any responsibility and blamed everything on me - telling me that what I needed was a shot of testosterone. There you have it - I was a broken vibrator who didn't turn on when she hit what she wanted to be my "on switch", so the total solution was a new set of batteries.
"Birdsong at morning" and past experiences.
In Alex Comfort's "Joy of Sex" (the little yellow book of the sexual revolution) there is a section on the need to keep intimate relations sacred and out of personal conflicts. Things said or done when people's guards are down and they are taking the risk of opening themselves to another person need to be respected and cherished. They need to be off limits in arguments when people say angry things. Yet, of all the women I have dated over the years not one of them has seen any reason to not use everything I have said in those tender moments as a weapon against me when she got angry at me. I have had some very emotionally risk confessions and statements twisted around and turned into the ugliest possible spin on my words, and thrown in my face for no other reason than to cause as much distress as possible. Over time, a person becomes conditioned to expect that and the idea of handing a person ammunition to shoot you in the gut become less and less appealing.
The cultural attitude that men owe women for sex.
Warren Farrell covered this issue more than 20 years ago in "Why Men Are the Way They Are." Simply look at the phrase "get lucky" to see a pervasive cultural value. It is always the man who "gets lucky" when he gets a little nookie, and the clear underlying belief is that sex is something the woman "gives" and the man "receives." Over the years I have had more and more experiences of women demanding sex and harassing me to provide it, but somehow managing to switch the shells after-the-fact to make the experience into something they did for me for which I owe them something. Caution in incurring either monetary or emotional debts is generally considered a sign of maturity.
While there may be plenty of individual personal reasons why a specfic person may not have a lot of interest in sex, I think that overlooking the cultural factors which influence this will make any solution impossible to find. The culture of the US is completely schizphrenic on the subject of sex - it is a very bad thing unless it is being used to sell something. As a man I am constantly bombarded by sexual imagery, yet let me say "hello" to a woman or (god forbid) indicate that I find her attractive and most women react as though I had just handed them a shoebox full of feces and that I'm only a few seconds away from knocking them to floor and having my way with them right then and there.
A great deal of what women are experiencing today is a direct result of their own PR efforts. Years ago, the wife of a young man I knew would call me up and bitch to me about how much her husband wanted her - seeming completely confident that I would share her huffiness and think that it was just awful. Eventually he gave her what she demanded, which was to leave her pretty much alone, at which time she switched her complaining to the fact that he didn't give her enough atttention.
I often say semi-jokingly that I am a conscript in the Army of Occupation of the Gender War, left behind by the Sexual Revolution. Sorting out all the conflicting messages, attitudes, and expectations has become so odious and burdensome that my honest gut reaction to the subject is much closer to dread than anticipation.
It is an interesting quirk of human nature that people are often much more motivated to complain about what is bad than to talk about what is good. The article you mentioned alone had more complaints about men than I have seen positive statements by women about men in my lifetime.
As the MND poster indicated, we men have gotten the message how much women hate us. It was a bitter pill to swallow for a while, but sooner or later most of us come to terms with it.
Hard to pick him out on this blog, isn't it?
Nice friends you have here, Helen. You must be proud.
I'm not saying that there aren't women like those described here. I would think, however, that it is obvious early on that she is this type of woman. So, why do these guys continue to mess around with them? Well, probably for the sex. And so it should come as no surprise, when your motives are so shallow, that you get a shallow relationship with an intolerable woman.
There are loads of women out there who are not like this. They may not always be the beauty queens you want. Again, don't be surprised.
The woman who is smart and funny and competent and independent? Well, let's face it, a whole lot of guys don't want that woman. They're intimidated. They want to be the rescuer, the smart one, etc. Well, fine, guys. But again, you get what you pay for.
Helen replies--- "Amazon is recognizing you because you've shopped with them and it's put a cookie on your machine. That's why you see the "Hi ___" greeting. I don't know who you are, because they don't share that information with me. If you don't like me taking donations, the way that most bloggers do, then please visit some blogs that don't. Reading the Dr. Helen blog is not compulsory!"
Dr. H., I did not state that I wish to deprive you of donations. In fact in my post I said I would buy your DVD documentary because I'm sure it has merit.
My point was simply, please do not shill me.
More disclosure, more transparanecy, more honesty.
That would not be a stretch for you, because you are an ethical woman; indeed a rarity.
The fact that amazon.com does not share my information with you does not actually answer my question ---
Do you in fact have to AGREE to link your site to amazon.com's trolling software?
Or, can amazon.com simply graze your site's hits, harvest ISP's, and solicit me?
At some point, Dr. Helen, did you agree to a contract with amazon.com?
That's fine, if so.
But (to be redundant again) --- full disclosure would be appreciated....
PS - Your allegations about my "paranoid conspiracy theories" seem only too similar to the psychological projections that your feminist critics apply to you, girl!
Oh, by the way Dr. Helen ....
You might not understand this, but you have created the cybernet equivalent of a fern bar in Islington, London, U.K.
Well, maybe it's a bit more of a Kingston JA crowd.
These blokes and rudeboys are not kidding.
"Heavy manners."
I hope your delicate sensibilities will not soon require a bouncer to keep the rabble under control.
So far, your grace and intelligence seems to be doing the trick! ;-)
Man, get over yourself.
Amazon knows your name, and tied it into their advertisting.
"Please do not shill me."
What the heck are you talking about?
Wikipedia Shill
"The intention of the shill is, using crowd psychology, to encourage other potential customers unaware of the set-up to purchase said goods or services."
She agreed to a contract to amazon just by putting the tipjar on the site. Oh no! She's in cahoots! Run for the hills!
Hey, Paranoid Lady:
Click on the link below the Amazon ad and you will go to http://tinyurl.com/387jhq .
Follow the instructions there and you will see how to stop Amazon from splashing your name (only to you) all over the web.
The owner of this site has nothing to do with it.
some heretic zed --- "... I often say semi-jokingly that I am a conscript in the Army of Occupation of the Gender War, left behind by the Sexual Revolution."
Well, that would suggest you're getting laid, at least rhetorically, right?
Now please go read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Uranus, OK?
"She agreed to a contract to amazon just by putting the tipjar on the site."
You are Dr. Helen's legal agent and speak for her?
I have no disagreement with the Wiki- definition of "to shill."
Nor would I have any problems with Dr. Helen seeking donations for her videography career.
Just, leave the underwire bra strategy on the shower pole, OK?
You don't have to be a legal agent to know this stuff.
For instance, I know for a fact that for her to buy the house she's living in, she had to enter a binding contract. Even though I'm not her lawyer or legal agent! Am I psychic? Do I have special agents shadowing her every move?
Or do I know the basics?
It's not rocket science. Do you really think Amazon, or any business of any size would let you set up an "account" with them where they handle money for you, without some kind of contract?
Amazon's lawyers would have figurative heart attack, maybe a literal aneurysm!
And the reason I brought up the Definition of "Shill" is because I didn't (and still don't) get what your point is.
Same thing with the underwire bra.
erikz-- "And the reason I brought up the Definition of "Shill" is because I didn't (and still don't) get what your point is.
Same thing with the underwire bra."
Dr. Helen is amazingly silent on these theoretical issues.
She has represented herself as a "different" kind of feminist.
I have met this breed many times. The "I'm not like them crowd."
It is so easy for a self-proclaimed i-Fem to cop the Trojan Horse strategy with men .... "I am the exception..." etc.
The problem for me is that I truly believe Dr. Helen IS an exception...
She is an incredible writer, a credible thinker, and if only her commercial contracts were fully disclosed, she could also have some actual street-cred with MRAs.
If you have to further investigate what "shilling" means --- contact Mike LaSalle @ Mens News Daily.
anonymous 1:44 P.M.
I have a couple daughters who are, yes, smart, funny - and beautiful. They can pop the hood, check the fluids, judge when it's time to change the oil, change a flat - rev the engine, dump the clutch and smoke the tires. Absolutely, I want them to be totally independent. I've been telling them (and my son) they can achieve and become, all their lives. They can also sew, cook, clean, and organize rings around me. And I'm pretty good in a kitchen. They also know about honesty, integrity, compassion, fairness, respect. And that their is damned little of it in this world. They know about God. I won't like it one damned bit, but I'll hold the door for 'em when they go.
If they are as self sufficient as they can be, they can make decisions that are well thought out. Not based on fear, or need for someone to take care of them. Don't know if you are a parent or not, and that's not my point or any of my business. I want my daughters to be able to intimidate men in the boardroom, if that is where they choose. On the sidewalk if that becomes necessary. They've been doing it on the ball field since they were young girls. As a dad, I've yet to see a young man worthy of either of my daughters. I want everything and more for my daughters. This isn't a dad's version of the woman/man, fish/bicycle thing. I do not, however, want my daughters to be typing complaints into a blog such as this in the future, or be the subject of some man typing about them in a blog such as this in the future. Being the proprietor of such a site as this, well that's a totally different thing.
Anonymousroy said...
"Well, that would suggest you're getting laid, at least rhetorically, right?"
Ah yes, the contemporary gold standard regarding whether life is worth living or not. "Am I getting laid?" Yes? Life is good. No? Oh woe is me. Whatever shall I do? Perhaps a trip to the garden and a fine dinner of worms?
In this post-sexual-revolution world it is quite easy to get laid, if one still finds it worth the trouble. However, it is quite difficult to get loved.
And, BTW, how in hades does one get laid rhetorically? ;)
Anonymousroy said...
"Well, that would suggest you're getting laid, at least rhetorically, right?"
Ah yes, the contemporary gold standard regarding whether life is worth living or not. "Am I getting laid?" Yes? Life is good. No? Oh woe is me. Whatever shall I do? Perhaps a trip to the garden and a fine dinner of worms?
In this post-sexual-revolution world it is quite easy to get laid, if one still finds it worth the trouble. However, it is quite difficult to get loved.
And, BTW, how in hades does one get laid rhetorically? ;)
---
So, ZP?
I could make this a full rant, a scientific explanation...
You can get rhetorically "laid" anytime you assume the grammatical position.
(Just employ fewer nouns, more adverbs...)
We seem to have created an anonymous kind of "tag team" comedy schtick, yes?
I can parse your posts and identify you immediately.
Perhaps we have a potentially profitable algorithm?
Dr. Helen is now in the position of having invited guests she never expected.
With histories she never read.
What a fantastic girlfriend!
Just good fun, after all....
Helen should rename this blog 'free therapy'.
A lot of the comments regarding women are over the top, but they're not baseless. American women are pretty candid in their disdain of men and have gained this reputation internationally, as have British women. Is it so suprising that American men have come to resent them? - and does anyone really believe that these women continue to resent men primarily because of inequities in the fulfillment of housework ?!?
When I'd come to the US I'd dated frequently in the cities where I worked and lived. There is an adverserial quality to many women in the US that isn't playfullness or even a challenge to be taken seriously. It's like a trial where you are accused of things that you must confess to or you are assumed guilty of worse crimes. American women seem to expect authority, but they don't expect to be taken seriously, or to have that responsibility.
Fortunately I married a women from my home country, we have hired a maid, and so still have sex ;)
Married with a great sex life. My best advice: In the course of daily life, don't nag each other--don't boss each other around. This goes a very very long way to a very very happy marriage.
I've read every comment and it's really sad. But with some exceptions, happy people aren't posting online about their dysfunctional sex lives.
I've been a radical feminist and now am a happily married 52 yr. old (post feminist). When it comes to sex, for me the true pleasure (besides the obvious) comes from giving pleasure. Narcissism is a pleasure-killer, as are inconsideration and lack of respect. For me, good sex flows from an emotionally nurturing relationship; for my husband, it is the opposite, but we complement and compromise. Yes, there are rough spots, but so far we've been invested enough in this marriage to get past them. Our biggest difference is that, to feel romantic, I need some verbal and emotional closeness, and he needs a number of topics (politics and family) to be off-limits preceding a "date." He makes an effort to be chatty and I make an effort to avoid the mood-killing topics (there are no mood killers for me except for stress and discord).
There are a lot of anti-women sentiments expressed here, which I am very sympathetic to. Over the past 30+ years, women have completely upended their sexual "bargain" with men. Women are not fun anymore. Any culture that indoctrinates its male and female college students with "The Vagina Monologues" and mandatory presentations and exhibits on rape is a viciously anti-male culture that breeds contempt between males and females. That is simply undeniable. It flows from radical feminism. Women are hard and all about themselves, and it is grotesque. Men find this repugnant and they are much less inclined to tolerate women. And while decades ago, we all may have suffered in silence, now everyone runs at the mouth about their miseries and that makes it much more acceptable to be miserable and not to try to change. It's also so much more difficult when we live in an age of instant communication and pervasive advice and yet don't have any of the tools to make and maintain a good relationship. It's also probable that many people have always lived these lives of quiet desperation, only now we all know about it. Women have always complained but in the past men have been stoic and kept their feelings and disappointments to themselves. Women are finding it hard to hear the same complaints about us that we've always been free to spew. The shoe's on the other foot now, women are finding they don't like it, and I say "tough." We broke the bargain and we're mad at men? I can see how most women are not worth the bother. They are full of contempt, for themselves and for men, and it's a turnoff -- before and after marriage. At least 2 generations may have been effectively ruined.
By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll be happy. If you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.
Socrates
-----------------------
While I may be in a situation where my marriage is most satisfying, I am sorry for those who struggle with these issues. It's very insightful, and rather scary to read all the female bashing however. I don't think it's fair to generalize.
willbdone,
So if your husband "goes bad" you will become a philosopher? I will be interested to hear what you have to say.
Anonymous 10:25:
Thanks for your thoughts.
I couldn't get through all the comments. But read enought to think I must be an exception. Been married 28 years, with 5 kids. The longest we've gone without sex in 7 months during that time. An extended WESPAC cruise. We didn't quite make up for it the first week back, but sure tried. Still 2-5 times a week. We're neither as young, or as in shape, as we used to be.
If something (God forbid) were to happen to my wife, I'd get married again in a heartbeat.
Whenever I har someone complain abot their wife withholding sex, mu comment has always been, "What are you doing wrong that she would want to punish herself like that?"
A happy anonymous
Reading all these icky personal details has completely turned me off. I am now officially witholding sex.
We'll see who breaks down first...
Helen,
Ha! There could be worse fates.
I don’t share the view of Socrates in that quote. Just because one marries a good person does not guarantee happiness. (Certainly it helps.) There are holes in the argument if you take it literally.
I happened upon that quote after reading all of the negative commentary about women. It stuck me as something funny to throw out there, because it offers some reassurance to those who hold the opinion that women are so bad.
I don't have sex because I have trouble finding women worthy of my body. And seed.
Yes, that's it. My body and seed are too good for most women.
Bart
frequent AoS commenter
Anonymous 1:44 attributed the unhappiness of so many married to men making the wrong choices, choosing the beautiful over the smart, interesting-- though perhaps less beautiful-- women who are overlooked.
I respectfully disagree. The majority of us don't have the looks, money or style to marry Carmen Electra look-alikes. We're regular guys who fall in love with and marry those smart, interesting women. Yet something happens...despite loving and caring for our wives, so often the sex, love and happiness is eventually squeezed out of our lives. Have you ever turned on TV to hear women say nice things about their husbands? I haven't.
My parents, Church, and all kinds of cultural messages taught and remind me every day to treat women with love and respect...and strive to overcome my crude male nature. Yet, is there any force in American mass culture today (except Dr. Laura Schlessinger)urging women and wives to be better people?
Helen,
How can you redeem what you started?
Your photos are lovely....
anonymous 8:05 P.M.
In you efforts to become Prime Antagonist, you've made yourself a prime example.
Check your watch. I believe you missed your last round of meds.
This post really seemed headded somewhere, but ended without connecting the dots assembled. What was the original point?
The point is to foment alot of dissent and hard feelings between the sexes. The point is to provide a forum for alot of dysfunctional men to spew hateful screeds about women, thereby allowing them to feel that they do not have issues to work on, but in fact the fault lies completely with these hateful women. The point is to provide a forum for Helen to declare that she is so different from women in general and for these men to accept it, since she in fact agrees with everything they say, not matter how clearly wrong-headed or psychotic. And thus, to provide a forum to receive the praise from men she so desperately requires.
Mission accomplished!
Are there women out there who are the types of bitches described here? You betcha! Are they the majority? No way. Are there men out there who engage in similar asshole behavior? You betcha! Are they the majority? Of course not.
Besides, only weak-minded people rely on generalizations, instead of taking people individually. And only a sadist or a very unhappy person would enjoy further alienating the sexes from each other. There are healthy and productive ways to talk about the problems that separate us. But Helen is not interested in any of that. And there are ways to be "in with the boys" and to get along with men, without wholesale trashing your own sex.
Anonymous 8:00:
Sounds like your "assessment" of my motives is a generalization itself.
Sounded very specific to me. On target, too.
not ted, anonymous antagonist etc.,
Your comments will no longer be allowed here and will be deleted. You are not here to discuss in any meaningful way and are here only to insult both other commenters and myself. I am not in the habit of deleting comments but you have crossed the line.
Anonymous@8:00 said...
The point is to foment alot of dissent and hard feelings between the sexes. The point is to provide a forum for alot of dysfunctional men to spew hateful screeds about women, thereby allowing them to feel that they do not have issues to work on, but in fact the fault lies completely with these hateful women. The point is to provide a forum for Helen to declare that she is so different from women in general and for these men to accept it, since she in fact agrees with everything they say, not matter how clearly wrong-headed or psychotic. And thus, to provide a forum to receive the praise from men she so desperately requires.
Nice attempt at a hatchet job, Anon@8:00, on both Helen and the commenters. The problem for you and people of your ilk is that the technique has been so overused that it has lost its punch.
As the former rad-fem Anon@10:25 admits, her "former" sisterhood has created a "viciously anti-male culture that breeds contempt between males and females." Admitting that this is the case and that women actually deserve some of the criticism they are now finally receiving from men, after decades of them bashing men, is an essential first step to that "more positive" dialogue you claim to be interested in. Of course, we know that you really aren't and that Helen's previous observation about women being so threatened when men are actually given a voice for their perspective that women have to find a way to silence them, no matter what means they have to use, has just been proven once again.
The reason it has become so bitter is directly due to the game you are trying to run here - direct or indirect personal attacks on anyone who dares even raise the subject. This suppressed the dialogue during all those years when men were still willing to dialogue in a calm and rational fashion. As a result, the frustration and rage of men has built to the point you see expressed here and what they are saying about women is turning very ugly because women refused to listen when it was expressed in a nicer fashion - just as you continue to do.
Anon@10:25 put it very well - Women have always complained but in the past men have been stoic and kept their feelings and disappointments to themselves. Women are finding it hard to hear the same complaints about us that we've always been free to spew. The shoe's on the other foot now, women are finding they don't like it, and I say "tough." We broke the bargain and we're mad at men? I can see how most women are not worth the bother. They are full of contempt, for themselves and for men, and it's a turnoff -- before and after marriage. At least 2 generations may have been effectively ruined.
Up until now women have dominated the dialogue and been free to say anything about men they wanted - no matter how much of a generalization or how untrue it was and men just had to take it in silence because if they said anything someone like you would jump in and call them psychotic. It's quite telling that we never see women like you on the famous man-bashing forums like feministing trying to sell your snake-oil of "if you cannot definitively prove that absolute 100% of all men are 'like that' then you cannot say anything at all." That worked while the majority of men still cared a great deal about women, but Anon@10:25's former sisterhood has gone so far in alienating men from women that every day more and more men cease to care. You are now firing blanks with your scathing attacks and insinuations, and much to your distress you will find that tactic to become progressively more useless as time goes on.
Until family law, education, and the attitudes of the average woman start being reformed to become more fair toward men, it actually is in men's best interests to foster a healthy distrust of and distance from women. We didn't break the system, women did, and it is not our job to fix what they have broken. Even though Helen is a member of a profession which has a great deal of culpability for the current mess, at least she is trying to to open some dialogue instead of the diatribe men have been beaten with for the past 4 decades - "all women perfect, all men horrible."
This 40 year collective couples-counseling session that the culture has been conducting, with men forced to sit with Prozac grins on their faces while women complain bitterly about all our shortcomings, is coming to an end. Nearly a quarter of single marriage-age men now say that they will never marry. The marriage strike is underway and gathering steam. While this may thrill the New York Times, the average woman is not finding the "freedom and independence" of wage slavery to be nearly as fulfilling as the hucksters told them it would be.
The old fable about the Boy Who Cried Wolf is beginning to be demonstrated on a culutral level - cries of "oppression, MISOGYNY" no longer bring the villagers scurrying from their homes to defend the weak. Instead, they are falling on ears which are becoming progressively more deaf to the complaints which have repeatedly been proven to be lies.
Everything old is new again.
Helen referred to "not ted, anonymous antagonist etc.,"
But aren't they all Greg Kuperberg?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
a girl: quick! delete me! said...
Helen,
If you were interested in starting a discussion about men's rights that would have an effect, you would encourage women to be part of it. There are plenty of women out there who dislike the stereotype of the helpless idiot husband and who see that men get the short end of the custody stick in many cases. Instead of letting women join the discussion, you actively discourage it, leading to the conclusion that you really aren't that focused on effecting change.
So, ag:qdm...
1. how has Helen actively discouraged you from joining the discussion?
2. why do these women not go to the forums where the man-bashing is fostered and make the same points to the women there which they try to make to men here? and...
3. how is calling people who are expressing their frustrations by the label "psychotic" and casting aspersions on their motivation as well as Helen's to be seen as "fostering" discussion?
Anons and girls: Helen's smart. She thinks for herself. If you can't handle that, maybe you should go away and start your own blog. I'm sure you'd find banning people very cathartic.
Or you could try witholding sex. Works for me!
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...
Let me get this straight, zed. So because some wrong-headed women bashed and generalized about men, it's ok for you people to do it? In fact, your kind's hateful screeds are in fact an "essential first step" in the process to a more positive discussion? Wait. If that's the case, then all those wrong-headed women with their man-bashing were also an "essential first step".
"They started it! She threw the first punch!" So immature. And frankly, who really started this fire?
Face it. There's no justification.
That interpretation is typical of the distortion a man faces when he tries to deal with the issues at all - and particularly when he tries to deal with them fairly. None of my posts have contained personal attacks, profanity, or generalizations - yet I get the same resistance to my message which men have always gotten. Far from the position of that wanna-be "Moses" of the MRM, it isn't that "Women cannot hear what men do not say", but rather the fact that no matter what men do say a lot of women and many men will do everything they can to avoid hearing it.
The degree of vehemence you are hearing in men's frustrations with women is information in and of itself - for those not too mired in their victim ideology to see that information and use it to their advantage. Two analogies I use are that of a pressure cooker and those red lights on the dashboard of your car which warn you that there is some problem with your engine.
Pressure cookers have a safety valve which lets off some steam when the pressure inside builds up to dangerous levels. This probably came about as a result of some people getting killed by devices without these safety features when they blew up.
A woman who has any sense will view men's anger as a warning signal like the red light on the dashboard of your car - it signals that something is wrong. Now, you can -
1. ignore it and hope it goes away,
2. put a piece of tape over it to make ignoring it easier,
3. take a hammer and smash the light out of the dashboard so that you don't have to look at it, or
4. stop the car and look under the hood to see what is wrong and try to correct it.
So far, I have seen women go through 1, 2, and 3, but the notion of trying 4 is generally cast a presposterous and unreasonable.
No one has to "justify" an earthquake, a tornado, a hurricane, or a volcanic eruption. Those are just natural events which occur as a result of natural forces.
They can however be explained and once one understands the natural forces which create them, one is in a much better position to know how to deal with them.
It is also pretty natural for members of a group which is the target of scorn, contempt, exploitation, and constant derision to develop some animosity toward members of the group doing all this. And, it is particularly useless to exhort members of the target group to "suck it up" and continue to "play nice" with members of the group attacking them. People used to learn that by about kindergarten age.
As I pointed out before, glibly twisting someone's words and putting a negative spin on their message is a great way to shut down discussion. But, ignoring the red light on the dashboard of your car is eventually going to lead to your engine blowing up or melting down.
The slick little shell game of "your anger, and now 'nicely' you express it are the issues, NOT what you are angry about" doesn't work any more. If I notice that the back of my neighbor's house is on fire and do the good samaritan thing of warning her, I really don't expect to have to argue about it. It's your house. While I have some degree of social concern about whether or not it burns down on you, whether or not it does has no effect on the roof over my own head.
And, that is pretty much the stance I'm taking here. Women have been torching the "house" of men's goodwill toward them for a long time. My attempts to warn them about the fire and its natural consequences have been cast as "justifying" the fire. I'm not.
All I'm doing is telling you that it is burning - what you do with that information is up to you. And, no matter what you do with it, I will still sleep warm and dry tonight and every other night.
However, people like you who once might have been invited to share that shelter are no longer welcome - because they paid so little concern for their own houses that I won't allow them to put mine at risk.
You people are trying to silence the wrong group - the men here pointing to the red light on your dashboard are trying to do you a favor and warn you about something. The are the ones still trying to make a friendly gesture toward you. It's the ones who are not here trying to talk to you who make women disappear in the middle of the night.
And, it's guys like me who hear their screams and then roll over in my nice warm bed and go back to sleep.
What women really should be more afraid of than men's anger is their complete indifference.
zed:
D'OH! Helen deleted my comment but then you quoted it!
"It is also pretty natural for members of a group which is the target of scorn, contempt, exploitation, and constant derision to develop some animosity toward members of the group doing all this."
Yes-women know this. But why do you have no understanding for animosity on the part of those women in the first place?
Finally, I appreciate your concern. But I've checked and MY house is not on fire.
You know, you never hear of men having these problems under Islam...
Maybe women might like to fix the problem before the men turn to Allah as liberator with payback options?
Yes-women know this. But why do you have no understanding for animosity on the part of those women in the first place?
I did - 40 years ago. It couldn't withstand the flames. It's now a vacant lot covered with weeds.
Never forget: the single most revolting image, the nightmare that haunts women, is that of the happy, grinning, sexually satisfied male.
There's a reason bukkake is growing in popularity, eh MrsDrHelen??? :) Smile pretty for the camera ladies; a good snore from the guy is more likely than a grin anyhow. :)
Anon said
"Yes-women know this."
LOL - and who was it that was just chiding Helen and the men here about "making generalizations"?
Obviously, "not all women are like that" (understanding this), else this discussion would have never come about.
and, it gets even better -
"why do you have no understanding for animosity on the part of those women in the first place?"
Wait! Wasn't it you who just categorically stated that there was never any justification? Which is it? Or is this another case of having it both ways?
Either this "animosity on the part of those women in the first place" was "justified" then, in which case men's should fall into the same category, or it was not, in which case men really have been severely wronged by women and thus having a little animosity on their own behalf might be just a wee bit understandable.
You just did a better job of proving zed's point than he did!
and, BTW, it is great to see all these scads of "fair-minded women" joining the dialogue. I saw both the comments Helen deleted before they disappeared and neither of them were from this multitude of fair women seeking to remedy the unfairness of the current cultural climate toward men.
argyle:
Or is zed making my point? This behaviour is no better. That's the point. Those who TRULY want to see an improvement in relations and an understanding between the sexes don't talk this way. And that's Helen's prerogative. But I think her choice should be make clear.
Ultimately, I've determined that this place is the blog equivalent of reading the National Enquirer. It's vouyeuristic, unintelligent and unhealthy. I wouldn't sit around reading the National Enquirer, so why do I continue to read this blog? Helen clearly doesn't want an alternative viewpoint, particularly since she's now my deleting comments that were not at all rude to her or anyone else.
zed's suggestion that I should be going to sites like feministing to denounce their man-bashing is probably apt. I don't expect to find people to listen to reason there. And it clearly can't be found here either. So, why waste my time?
Again, MY house is not on fire. I'm happily coupled with a man. I think marriage is at best a tough gig, at worst to be avoided. But I have a committed relationship with frequent, neuroses-free sex. And I reckon I needn't worry about those who have such absurdly contentious relations with the opposite sex.
Good luck.
Anonymous said...
Ultimately, I've determined that this place is the blog equivalent of reading the National Enquirer. I wouldn't sit around reading the National Enquirer, so why do I continue to read this blog?
Excellent question. Do you have an answer?
So, why waste my time?
Another excellent question.
I have a committed relationship with frequent, neuroses-free sex.
Good for you (and him). However, the topic at hand, if you look at the top of the page, is "Why men (and women) don't want sex." If it is such an offensive topic to you, it does seem to be rather masochistic of you to keep hanging around while people discuss the subject.
Okay, you all wanted a women's opinion on why we don't want sex, here it is.
I'm 50 and married now for 26 years. We share sex about once a month. Sometimes we skip a month. Neither one of us feels deprived. When we first met (mid 20's) we had sex several times a day, every day. We could get hot just looking at each other across a room. I couldn't tell you who initiated the sex back in them days. It just happened.
In our 40's we hit a rough spot. Sex was less frequent and we were getting quite testy with each other about the quality of our sex. I complained it was too fast, too much pressure; he complained I didn't do enough to arouse him. We grumbled, we avoided sex, we were both unhappy. I thought I was no longer sexually appealing to him. He felt I must be getting it elsewhere.
Then tearful confessions were finally made. He was having trouble keeping it up and was too embarrassed to say so so he got angry at me for not doing enough to help him. His anger undermined my confidence and I withdrew to protect my own feelings. You can see how all this is spiraling down to a lot of anger, mistrust, resentment and no sex. Only when we hurt so bad the subject of divorce came up did we start to clear the air.
We use ED drugs to give our efforts a greater chance of success now. I understand he has lost some function and he understands I have lost some drive. We snuggle quite happily in the morning and are affectionate with each other throughout the day. Sex is not the beginning and ending for us. Our friendship is stronger than ever.
Things sometimes still work without the drugs but it will sometimes fail without the drugs. We can now laugh about it, both of us. Either one of may bring up sex. Either one of us may turn it down. Sex is not used as an exchange or to coerce. It is a pleasure we enjoy now and again. It amazes us both that the same ol' same ol' is still mighty fine.
I think there are a lot of people who buy into the Hollywood version of sex as we age. The Sean Connery's of the world get older and sexier and it seems the older men in films are always having sex, wanting sex and getting beautiful women to share sex with. Women are not show as having as strong a sex drive as men but it doesn't seem to diminish with age any. Even aging starlets are up on screen vamping men in scanty costumes.
I believe the sex drive does taper off with age for both genders. If you are lucky, both partners sex drive tapers off at the same rate and nobody is left with the itch to scratch without the partner interested in scratching it. But how often can that matched tapering occur?
Sorry anonymous above.
You are 50 and having sex every other month?
That is much much too young for the average person, but how nice you two found each other.
wow, what a great read.
I was told again last night that "sex is just another chore". She hates it.
Seems to me that if "love" were involved there would be no excuses like "chore" or "you're fat". She certainly likes the paycheck I bring home though.
It is clear that she doesn't love me anymore (or ever did?)and so she is now an object of my pity: wasting away under my roof, watching Oprah and her soaps, raising my kids to be as spoiled and self-centered as her, and taking the side of anyone who opposes me. (last week it was the pen that ran out of ink- somehow I was a dick for even complaining, it was a great pen until I tried to use it! whatever)
Thanks Helen, I have come to a decision after reading so much to buttress my own views and experiences: (a)Getting a mistress, and (b)waiting for "the foreign boots on the ground" as that one fellow described. No more wondering whats wrong with her. She's broken and trapped and now that I pity her I think loving her is going to be a lot harder. At least she cooks good. I can concentrate on my job and 401k and placing all of my life insurance in the hands of my only son.
I like the idea of driving off with the kids and leaving her with the cats.
Perhaps many of you will not think that what I am about to say is not apropos to the subject at hand but I would entreat you to consider a coming and present reality. Resurgent Nationalism. Throughout Europe and slowly in the USA, predominantly men are realizing that their birth-rite has been taken away from them and when that is coupled with the loss of their children in family courts; the current state of affairs cannot long exist. One must remember that if we are governed and ruled by the letter of the law, how can we explain that routinely and scandalously men are denied the ability to present evidence to exonerate themselves when false allegations have been presented in court or that men are also denied the right to request a trial by jury? A constitutional right. It happens every day in family courts across the nation. These inequities cannot exist in perpetuity without a causal reaction. It you think they can then I question your basic grasp of reality.
I hope I am in safe company to say that a dispersion of a social ‘philosophy’ or a revolution of sorts has occurred. Indeed, it occurred some time ago. Its effects and affects are intensely palpable, unless one is drunk with that inane volitional dissent which is the hallmark and plague of man’s modern confusion. Such is the case with feminism. It is not in the main the principle subject for objection. It is a subalternated disorder of this pernicious social ‘philosophy’. It is an effect that has wrought innumerable notional affects among men and women. It is deep-seated and societally enshrined as a virtue of sorts. There is a distinction between a type of ‘authentic’ feminism and the radical feminism that destroys helter-skelter; however there has been an intermingling of the two strands and when one seeks to parse them out, he usually is greeted by the appellation ‘misogynist’.
In seeking to eliminate the sensible effects of that disordered feminism, it is not enough to start wearing a skirt or baking a better apple pie but to discern our motives and to engage in an intensely spiritual, historical, philosophical and theological circumspection. We must seek the causes and see, beyond the immediate remedies, if we have been infected by this virus in our social structures, political structures, notional structures, educational structures, religious structures and familial structures. If we acknowledge that this is a disordered social structure, than we can’t be malleable to modernity.
All too often we seek the practical, enshrine the practical and say of the speculative that it is impractical, quixotic, naïve and puerile. We hear them say, “We are here now; we have to deal with these (aforementioned) structures in the current milieu, perhaps one day we will gain a better understanding of the sexes (or any such similar topic) and leave this state of perpetual becoming.” I disagree. To subject the current structure to thought, contemplation and circumspection does take time and as such the action does occupy a space in time but we already have the tools to deduce that the current template is unquestionably broken. To go on within this template is to use its tools and to be formed by its ideas, its structures and its values. This is where we are. We have been infected and to become ‘disinfected,’ save for a singular grace of God, takes a lifetime of toil in the fields of wisdom and love.
We are participating in these structures, inculcating their paradigm and becoming reconciled and ameliorated to the zeitgeist; wherein disorder is seemingly the only order of rule. As I have said, feminism is a subalternated effect of the overarching malicious defect that has plagued our world. It is so deeply embedded and intertwined with feminine life, as half-truths mix the good with the ill, that there is inevitably a latency borne about and carried deep within like the crevasses and subductions of upholstery hold stubborn ‘dust bunnies’ beyond the reach of the vacuum cleaner. As such, the majority of American or 'Western' women may be rightly called; latent feminists.
How does Resurgent Nationalism fit into this and the gender issue? Well, it could have several effects. It will lead us to address the issues of 'tolerance' 'political-correctness' and the ability of a rational creature to pass judgment upon actions. These will be sticky issues for a supposedly 'pluralist' country that seems unable to make decisions and lacks the courage to reform what is obviously broken. One particular problem will be that if we are truly a 'pluralist' society then if one is truly tolerant then they must be tolerant of intolerance. If not, then there use of 'tolerance' is no more than a euphemism or a a tool of a semantical tyranny.
To think that this country as currently constructed can long continue is naive and I think men more than women know underneath it all it has to change and the sooner the better. Finally, I think men are willing to make the sacrifices necessary to effect this change then women; and this is the primary difference between the sexes.
I am sad, crying actually, (getting in touch with my feminine side)... tonight---
because Helen is actually BANNING posters now.
She has gone over to the dark side, the place where only Narcissism prevails.
Why is this syndrome so f'ing predictable in the MRA 'Net Twilight Zone?
Zed continues to throw himself against all the walls, bloodied and battered and he never gives up, just keeps making extraordinary speeches.
Nobody listens or acts.
So many other excellent voices.
What crime was committed here, Dr. Helen?
You invited us! With your appealing demure sexiness and t-shirt photos.
You nurtured us!
And now?
I am ashamed to think I misjudged this fine woman.
Perhaps I am misguided?
(Zed) - "Everything old is new again."
Then, I guess we men have a future to create?
That would be fun!
Everyone, step away from your keyboard (or call up a better porn site), arouse yourself, and go find yourself some physical loving.
That woman up there who stopped having sex at 50 has me crying now. The fat man who thinks his big paycheck should still excite his wife too. Those couples who set up dates, or need a special vacation to touch each other.
Where have you gone Dr. Westheimer, a nation turns its lonely eyes to you. While DrHelen boohoohoo's...
Your watch....check your watch.
A word of hope from a married woman--when the kids were tiny and I was exhausted from their demands, I didn't enjoy sex very much but we kept on trying and talking and laughing together and as we tried new stuff (I love those magazines at the beauty parlor!) we came up with some ideas that made both of us go wow!! And now many years later we still enjoy the quest and adventure as well as the comfort and pleasure of each others bodies. Sex can be a problem but it's so lovely, it's so worth not giving up on.
Sorry but this thread has convinced me never to marry.
Apparently I don't cliffjump enough for Dana.
Dr. Helen,
Are there any books on intimacy you can recommend for me to give my wife?
Anonymous 11:44,
Depends on your wife. My suggestion for books would be to go to the bookstore, pick up a few from the self help section that you flip through and if you think they are good, share them with her because you are interested in them--maybe ask her some thoughtful questions about her views on intimacy etc. Hand your wife a book on intimacy and what do you think this tells her?
I get it. And, I'll go at it the way you put it. Thanks. It's wild how I really thought about it for a while. But, I would have never thought to handle it this way. So, even with fore thought, I would have still just gone right in and bogled it.
Thanks.
Anonymous 2:45:
I hope I did not come on too strong with my reply. I am sure you just want the best for your wife, but this is a touchy subject for both men and women, and a careful touch is called for.
My wife cannot give the smallest of compliments-I play several musical instruments quite well, yet when I play, she leaves the room, as if to say, you are only doing that to prove how untalented I am. I could sit in a corner and simultaineously play the Star Spangled Banner on the guitar with my toes, set myself on fire and construct a nuclear device and I would not get so much as a glance-the absolute obliviousness to any achievement is incomprehensible. Not one word of praise or acknowledgement has ever passed her lips and I figure the only way I would get a sniff of attention is if I blew my brians out in front of her and her first call woud not be to 911 , but to the insurance company. The search for love or even recognition from a cold woman is futile. My dilemma is I cant' stand the thought of leaving my pets. I am completely alone in everything I do and my attitude is one of "who in the world gives a shit what I do." I am dying a slow, painful death of a creative person being totally ignored-the sheer hatred is palpable. Forget sex-I just barely hang on to the will to live.
Anonymous 4:06:
You care or should, about yourself. Do not let your self--the creative self that you have described be destroyed because you cannot get love from a person who does not want to give it. If this is truly the case, as you have described, go and talk to a professional about your feelings and see if they could help. Ask other men in your office, family or milieu to give you a recommendation for a mental health worker--and go. It sounds like you really need some support. Please follow through.
Anonymous 4:06:
You say, "The search for love or even recognition from a cold woman is futile."
I say, the search for love begins with you. Love yourself enough to listen to the excellent advice you have been given. Don't let the "stigma" of seeking help get in the way of actually doing it.
...no, not too strong. Thanks again.
Everything worthwhile requires work. That's not to say that love shouldn't be effortless and natural, but after being married 20+ years, it's easy to fall into a rut.
But it can be fixed. My wife and I fell into the downward spiral of dwindling intimacy, caused my lack of attention, kids, work, and all the other stresses. But above all, we simply forgot to truly care for each other.
I was like a lot of the guys on this site. And I suffered years of passive/aggressive 'sex as a weapon' issues, dwindling sex, lack of intimacy, failed counseling, a divorce action, and a hell of a lot of pain. But the one thing that turned it all around was simply caring about the other person.
How can you rebuild love, trust, and amazing sex after all that? By swallowing your pride and your hurt, and being kind toward your wife. Giving her what she wants (within reason), being kind to her, kissing her, not expecting or needing sex, leaving her little notes, never arguing with her. Treat her like a princess. If you make the same effort you made to win her in the first place, she won't be able to resist for long. Most women want, and truly can't be angry
And if, after a few weeks of you being the best possible husband and friend you can be, she doesn't reciprocate your feelings... then move on and find a woman who knows how to be loved.
They're out there, and that's all they really want.
to be honest, after reading anon 2:04, I want to barf. The social and marital reciprocity needs to start with the female. The honest male knows that women rarely reciprocate on any level and they also rarely admit fault for any action or effect of their inactions. In short, the many considerations and inequities that are foisted upon men in society and in the family need to cease if our society endeavors to actually live to see the future.
Note to self: Stay single.
A Biblical View:
Proverbs 5:May your fountain be blessed,
and may you rejoice in the wife of your youth. A loving doe, a graceful deer—
may her breasts satisfy you always,
may you ever be captivated by her love.
I Corinthians 7:
3The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
It sorrows me to read these posts. What I see is not reasons for avoiding sex but troubled marriages. As a Christian, I have received my share of ridicule from unbelievers who accuse us of having archaic views on sex. But as someone who has been married for 30 years and has enjoyed a full sex life with his spouse, I can honestly say that God’s plan for sexuality is far better than anything modern society has devised. As can be seen from these Bible passages, God’s plan is for married couples to enjoy sex frequently and well into old age. It is not normal for marriages to become sexless and cold. When sexual activity wanes in a marriage it is evidence of either physical/medical problems or spiritual problems. For medical problems, people need to consult their doctor. For the other kind of problem, few human experts can help. For this kind of problem people need to seek God.
Well, as usual....
All the THEORY just eventually evaporated.
Let's get back to important issues, like chafing and vaginal dryness.
But wait ....
those might be theoretical issues, right?
One married man's point of view:
Give 100% all the time, expect 50% in return.
This system might leave you feeling underappreciated at times, but if you married a good woman it will pay off over the long run.
If you didn't marry a good woman, you're screwed anyway.
Mercy--quite a thread!
I divorced at 53---figured if there was no sex after one year, there wasn't going to be any. Yes, she got her weekly night out for years, but used it to plow down as many drinks as she could before the movie started, then was just too tired after we got home. She didn't have to work, unless she wanted to. I did 60+% of cooking and cleaning.
Have now been with a smart, loving, powerful, financially secure professional woman for five years. Sex is still pretty good, and at least once or twice a week (I'm 58, she's 53). Interestingly, she has always liked sex but has never been orgasmic with a partner, but still enjoys sex-as-a-loving-gift, and with the "give-her-an-orgasm" pressure off, there's much less performance-pressure on my part.
Most important--we don't live under the same roof, and see each other two or three times a week, so it seems to have the best of both a dating relationship and a committed relationship. I'd imagine the closest we'd get to living together would be a duplex, about which we joke often.
I'm 40 years old, have been married almost 20 years now to the same man, and we have a fantastic love life, even though there was a "dry spell" during which I didn't love him any less, but I discovered that my use of birth control pills sapped my libido. Once I got off those, my normal, rowdy self re-emerged. Also, we have chose sterilization inasmuch as we didn't want to have any children, so the anxiety of a possible pregnancy isn't there anymore. We both enjoy ourselves more freely.
Staying in love througout the years does take some work though. Love lives don't run on auto-pilot. What turns me on most is how turned on he is by me. It blows my mind that after all this time he still WANTS me.
Dear Anonymous above,
Good for you!
You and your husband are blessed with a good attitude, good dispositions...
D.
Interesting how many people come to a post about people who don't want sex for the purpose of bragging about how great their own sex lives are.
I am a 29 year old female...I enjoy having sex...But my husband doesn't seem to like to have sex...we have only been married 6 months and well we have one done it 5 times.....I have done everything to get him to want sex..but he just turns over and goes to sleep..what am I doing wrong....
Question:
What if you are a woman married for 12 years with 2 great kids and you don't feel anything sexually for the man, but yet you think about women all the time. Did I already mention I have kids? I don't know what to do. I love my husband but am sexually attracted to women not men. This by the way just started about 5 years ago. Please help any advise would be great
3:51 pm-
my marriage is your first marriage, and it is all my fault.
lack of sex, i have little desire for him. he wants it, mopes about it, i give in, i am restless. i love him, he is a good man. But i knew, before i married him, that i was not in love with him-i told him so. He wanted to stay with me, work it out, i gave in i guess. who would not give in to a friend that one loves?
now i feel guilty, but i cannot force myself to want him, to have that passion. married less than a year, and i am destroying a good man. i want to yell to him "go!" but he never will. what is a woman to do? live a lie? beg him to leave? i am so lost...
I would love for someone to explain to me why my husband does not desire me only after 7 months of marriage. He says that he does, but we only have sex on average once or twice a month. He's fourteen years my senior and I'm 25. I am beginning to take it hard only because I guess I was so used to being pursuited and to now, almost be ignored when it comes to that gets under my skin. I will admit that I don't do much in regards to always being on top because I know that my husband loves the bedroom. I would like to come out of the bedroom, go to the table, the car, the woods, public/semi public places, and etc. Not just the bedroom. So inevitably, my creativity goes down. But even though my creativity goes down, I guess it's just a pride issue that I deal with...having always had to deal with knowing that I was always desired and now, it's simply 'whatever.' My pride is wounded by this.
Is this discussion still active? I am having the same problem with my husband. We've only been married a month, and we got married because I got pregnant, but we also love each other. However, the sex life is not fulfilling. When we dated, he wanted sex a lot, and I never did. After getting pregnant, I guess the hormones changed me? I want sex, and now he is rarely interested. We might have sex once a week, but it is rarely exciting or passionate.
I'm a 28 year old woman, but when it comes to sex I'm made to feel like the man in the relationship. My boyfriend of 6 years never initiates sex or shows me any other signs of affection. I don't know why thisis. He states its his age (40)but from what I've gathered from reading is that this is not normal.
Can anyone explain what I'm doing wrong? I don't expect hours of him satisfying me, I can be very giving if he would let me. But he does his best to avoid being close to me in any way.
I'm pretty certain he's not playing around. But he thinks I'm a sex addict. I've stopped asking and now I've stopped getting.
I am 30 years old and my husband and i have been married for almost 5 years. Sex sucks. After too long of having to take care of myself during sex, I said enough. I admittedly had an affair with a man who on the first night was able to do things my husband couldn't dream of. This affair lasted two years and after it was all said and done, I do not find any desire towards my husband. Men, instead of bragging how good you are, prove it. My husband has had sex 100's of times with me...I simply got f***ed. I'm angry that he never cared and he made comments like "men don't really care if the woman gets anywhere". I have also learned that those who brag about their prowess the most, are the absolute worst lovers in bed. They are bumbling idiots, sweating and pawing at you like a caveman. This I have learned from marriage and a couple of previous relationships.
I would rather be shot in the knees than to get married and stuck ever again! Run you fools, run!
I always want sex but my husband never does. It is sometimes 6 months in between each time we have sex and when we do have sex it is because I initiate it. Lately, my husband very rarely satisfies me. I like to experiment, he's just in and out and that's it, OVER and he goes to sleep. I am getting really tired of having to initiate sex all the time. I have also been fantazing and thinking seriously about finding a man to satisfy me. I need and want sex more than twice a year, I don't know what to do.
I can understand where some of the men on this site feel as if they're doing all the work. In my case, however, I'm the one who is constantly asking for it and being told no....too tired, not in the mood, the same ole same ole. We've not had sex in over 2 months and I'm about to lose my mind. There has been some very stressful things that have happened and I DO know that these things are now starting to affect him greatly but what I don't understand is the fact that I've found out that he'll masturbate literally as soon as I walk out of the house. This doesn't happen very often but when it does, it really hurts me. Not only because I'm asking for it on a weekly basis but because less than an hour before I was in the bed with him and nothing was said or if I offered, was turned down. Any suggestions?
I have only been married for about 1.5 years now and we havne't had regular sex since we were engaged. I have found that any time I try to initiate or bring up sex... she rolls her eyes and sighs... then she pretends that she just doesn't have time. And then she has the nerve to get mad the 1 time i get caught looking at porn. It gets even worse though, when she is actually in the mood, I don't want anything to do with her because I know the way that she rolls her eyes and sighs 90% of the time. In my mind I think that the 10% when she actually asks for it, its probably because she simply is just horny and would take anyone....
Hello Anonymous 3:39 pm. Have you asked her WHY she rolls her eyes and sighs? Is she not sexually satisfied? Is it about control? Does she understand how important this is to you? Is she harboring some kind of resentment? Fom a woman's perspective, I think ou should find a non-threatening way to ask her what her feelings are. You might be suprised about what you learn, or don't learn. Good luck.
I have not read this whole thread, but what I have read seems to be the men craving the sex, and the women denying it. I find myself in the opposite situation. I have been with my boyfriend for two years, and we had the most incredible sex life for well over a year. The past six months, though, he has lost his desire to have sex. (No, he's not cheating.) He is the most loving, caring person, and we have talked about it. About three months ago, he said he didn't feel very good about himself bk he had gained weight, and when he works out, he feels better. Now, though, he does work out more often, and it still hasn't changed anything. (I have never thought he has gained weight; I am super attracted to him, and I look just as good- if not better- than when we first met, too.) We have such an amazing relationship- he is so incredibly awesome, and the fact that sex has become so rare has made me so very sad. He says he knows I am sad, and he feels frustrated, too, that he doesn't want sex very much. (One to two times a week, tops.) We are 25 years old, and I want to feel hot and sexy... I feel like there are not too many years left to feel that way. I want him to want me really badly- like- just to come from work and devour me. I really don't know ways to go about "fixing" this; I don't know if it is a permanent change in his sex drive, or if it's just a rut. He says he feels pressure from me, and he doesn't know what's "wrong" with him. I recently suggested maybe not having sex for a month- just for it to be off the table, no worries- just to enjoy each other without any pressure. I don't know if this is a crazy idea or not. I just love him so much, but am really worried that this will drastically change our relationship for the long term.
Anonymous said...
I can understand where some of the men on this site feel as if they're doing all the work. In my case, however, I'm the one who is constantly asking for it and being told no....Any suggestions?
5:41 PM
I am a woman in the same position in my marriage. You don't say how long you've been married or how long you go without sex but you do mention 2 months - well I'd be happy with that as the longest for us was 8 months and 3 or 4 months is not unusual and it's been like that for years now. We've been married almost 17 years and he's a great person, not having an affair just isn't into sex that much (but
like yours once or twice, at least, preferred masturbation to making love to me) but he does love me and is very affectionate with hugs - but that doesn't make a marriage. I still love him and he is my best friend but despite trying everything I can think of to spice up our sex lives it just hasn't worked. He has no stress or ill health, no nagging or repulsive qualities from me to cause it, we get along well but there just isn't that spark for him, it wasn't much in evidence even at the start, though he says it is not my fault, I still felt it was.
It doesn't get any easier or better with time, and if things are like that then they will probably stay like that without real imput from the non-responsive
partner.
I've known for years I am still attractive to other men but my husband is the only lover I've ever had and I would want to keep it that way, but I've known for years it is only a question of time before I do have an affair and in the last year I know now I WILL have one at some point when I meet a man I am not only attracted
to but like and trust, and more than that I would expect my husband to understand and if he didn't then I would think the marriage well lost and I've let him know I feel this way. I also know I will not feel guilty about this when it does happen since I have tried everything to have that kind of passion in my marriage where it should be and it is incredibly hurtful emotionally as well as physically frustrating that I get no response at all from the one man I want to attract most.
An affair isn't what I want at all, but during the last year things have changed for me too in that I used to think 'the next time he actually wants sex I will say no' (all sorts of reasons why - from letting him know for once how it feels to be rejected to not feeling as bad about myself for being a pushover sexually for him
whenever he wants) but it never happened and for years I was just so grateful when he ever did want to have sex that I got expert at getting my orgasm over very
quickly since I was so scared he'd change his bloody mind. But in the last year he hasn't been able to arouse me at all even when he has tried - and at first he was put out he couldn't, since I think in some way he actually thought he was a gifted lover or something and not that I was a woman with a high sex drive driven to extreme by months of abstinence and also a woman so scared of boring him that I got my orgasm over quickly. But there is still no real change in his behaviour to me so I'm finding more and more that he is just incredibly selfish. He's not
selfish generally but sexually he is monumentally so and since he doesn't want to change then I now have to.
My advice to anyone at the start of a relationship like this would be to get out soon, if you can't or don't want to then be prepared that there will come a time when you have to make a choice of accepting the hurt and rejection of a sexless (and increasingly so) marriage or contemplating behaviour that might not have come
naturally to you of having an affair where you can live that part of your life and not feel atrophied and sere long before your time. If anyone has suffered a marriage like this longer than me then I am also open to their advice. Maybe an outside lover or even a menage-a-trois is for the best? maybe that is even what
the silent partner is hoping for to ease the burden on them? Or maybe I've just allowed him to be so secure in my fidelity that I am no longer a challenge and as soon as another man does appear it will make him behave differently to me?
I have been married for 7 1/2 years to my husband. We are 26 and 27, healthy attractive people. We have been together since we were 15 and 16. We have 2 beautiful daughters and we get along great. He is my ultimate best friend. But, I haven't ever really had desire. I have contemplated my hormones being off...so many things. We've tried counseling, toys, books the whole 9.
We are now seriously contemplating divorce...AND we still love each other. He is extremely insecure and I feel horrible. I honestly feel like I could go forever with no sex. I am not selfish. I love him so much and have/will/would do or try anything. We just feel like maybe, while we are still young and our kids are young...just starting over and ending our marriage amicably. I am so scared and sad..he is too. I have been a stay at home mom for 5+years...I just don't really know what the best decision is.
I am a 26 year old male. I seem to have the opposite problem that these other men have and I still cannot find a woman who is interested. I discovered through the course of my life that my sex drive only seems to work well vicariously. I enjoy performing cunnilings and so forth but cannot find a woman that will go along with this. I don't want blow jobs and I don't want access, I seem to only enjoy pleasuring. You would think I would have no problem finding a woman like this at all! Wrong, I always run into the problem of her not having a strong enough sex drive or she is more interested in fishing for romantic guesters.
I suspect some women are too shy to admit to their desires but I have no idea how many are truely disinterested and how many are not being honest out of fear. Any advice?
I am 45 female have had a good sexual relationship for 13 years or more now Im on my 19th year I have realised that all my other half has ever wanted is sex and to his needs only its too one sided I realsie now that all a man wants is just sex basically thats all thats all a man wants at the end f the day women are not here for just that women do too much for a man wash cook clean work bring kids up u name it men are lazy I have to be honest here.
WOMEN WAKE UP men just use us for their own needs they dont love us they use us and are always unfaithful men are too screwed up and always wanting more than they get they are never happy
Women have to cope with everything men dont women give birth the lot men dont have to go through anything womens probs are hormones men dont have to suffer them like we do men have it easy Im afraid women are not here for sex we are worth alt more treat us nice
It's apparently quite uncommon among those on this board, but I am in very low-sex marriage due to my husband's lack of desire. We have been married almost 14 years, get along well, have a good life that includes two beautiful children, and love and respect each other very much. We are both fit and attractive -- in fact, I look better than when we were first married! (Not to sound conceited, but what I mean is that I'm definitely not a flabby slob.) Still, he's just not that interested. It's been that way since we were first married. I don't consider myself a super-high libido person, but I would LOVE to make love to my husband at least once (or twice!) a week ... the reality is about once or twice a month, and that's only because I insist that we make a date to make love every Saturday night. Do the math -- it still doesn't happen every time when "scheduled". *Sigh*
I know that other men find me attractive, but that's only more frustrating b/c it's of absolutely no help -- I would never have an affair (the "for better or for worse" part is important, I think), but it is unbelievable how sad and frustrated I feel about this issue A LOT of the time.
Sometimes I feel that, even though I really love my husband, if I had known before our marriage what I know now, I might not have married him. I don't mean to suggest that sex is everything, but it's very important in a marriage, without a doubt. (Then sometimes I think, "What if I had married a guy with off-the-charts testosterone who wanted sex a zillion times a week and chased any woman?" That would surely be awful, but I don't think we need to deal only with extremes ... a middle ground would be lovely.) I just never thought my marriage would be like this.
BTW, I take care of our home and family, I think quite competently. I mean, I'm definitely not a slob, our home is a nice, pleasant place to be, our kids are generally well mannered, and I cook reasonably well, etc. -- I mean, I feel like I'm definitely fulfilling my responsibilities! I think I'm a pretty enjoyable and happy person, so it's not that I'm being a nasty, crabby bitch like some women -- sadly -- are to their husbands (at least I'm not crabby too often *smile*). I just feel like I deserve for my husband to WANT and seek out a little fun between the sheets, at least once a week!!!!! Aaagh!
Anyway, I wish I could find a magic potion to just have our relationship be NORMAL in this department, but I don't know what else there is ...
Good luck to all of you in your lives. I know what a significant source of unhappiness this issue can be.
Instead of anon, call me M.H. I got tired of reading how all these 30 and above women are so materialistic. As a never married well above 30 female who knows several other similar (but gets along more with men friends) the male comments about us being stuck at 25...well that might be true, but is more a statement of who they choose to be around than women as a whole.
Personally if you chose someone that materialistic, you weren't looking very far into the person to start with!
BEYOND THE MATERIALISM and self centeredness listening to married guy friends over lunch I have heard, and experienced myself, where one partner (male or female) repeatedly brings up a topic that is bothering them and the other shuts them down...by doing so you are telling your partner that their thoughts and feelings are not important to you and therefore not valid. Who wants to have sex after their partner has so disrespected them as a person?
ABOUT WOMEN REMAINING THEIR 25 Y/O SELVES…MAYBE IN THOSE RESPECTS I AM STUCK AT AN EVEN YOUNGER AGE: At 21 I was finishing college and working a few jobs. My boyfriend was taking home less than $50 per week (in 1990) after child support payments. One morning after getting in at about 0500 from one job, my boyfriend woke me up a few hours later with a bracelet he had gotten while out himself that morning. He said how he wished it was a nicer (it was base metal with fake turquoise). I told him the truth, I loved it! He'd seen it in some little kiosk and on impulse thought of me...he had nothing, but this admittedly small gift was so precious to me because he told me what it represented in his heart, and that was the true value of it. We knew that we were not meant to marry each other so we broke up over a year later and I moved for work a little after that. We kept in touch for a while and his business began to take off again. He met someone else and said he felt guilty because he was giving her expensive jewelry that should have "been yours, you were the one that supported me through the worst so I could get to this point." I was thrilled he found someone, only caveat was that she better not be like some he dated before me and treat him badly.
YES BITTER MEN, I supported him emotionally and any other way I could even knowing that we were not going to get married. Another “materialistic” bent at 27...great friend that I ended up dating gave me dinosaur valve stems for my motorcycle for valentine's... romantic to me because it was different, he'd seen me giggling about them at a local shop (not expensive either) because I could not afford anything else to spruce up my rusty old bike.
At 33 a man I began dating while we were stationed together for a short time went with me to get new tires for my motorcycle...problem happened when I gave them my credit card and it would not go through, it came back as a suspicious charge and since it was a Sunday the bank was closed so I could not call to confirm that it was me, and the place would not accept out of town checks...the guy put my tires on his card and I wrote him a check, still, to me, a "gift" because that takes trust.
SO YES, AT 30 SOMETHING I WAS THE SAME, IN THAT WAY, AS I WAS AT 20 SOMETHING! THANK GOD!
I have been moving around for military service and other work for over a decade now and finally found an area where I can settle for a few years, still, no lifelong partner! I am 38 and get hit on much more by guys either decades younger or decades older wanting just to get laid....or 5 kids, tomorrow! Once we go out they exclaim how I am exactly the same as I first presented myself! Wow, I am just me! If we make it past the first few weeks they move really fast toward commitment, but in so doing scare themselves silly (and me as well), I didn't bring up marriage or kids, geez, for that I want to know the guy a bit better.
I am educated; I have a good job, own my own home and do most of the renovations myself, have no bills and bought my own jewelry while overseas. It is difficult to offend me and I am NOT P.C. I even participate in outdoor adventure sports because I love them, all this and I generally wear a dress as often as possible. So you can get a non materialistic self sufficient sporty type woman who likes to look feminine.
Guess what I miss, single and "materialistic" and all that...I miss wiggling up next to a man that cannot resist me for all my faults...I have went without sex for so long that though I experienced "variety sex" in college and prefer and find more pleasure with a long term partner you trust so that you can be experimental...I am on and off again at seeking to set up a sex only relationship..Why? Because unlike what so many complained of, once I get it, if it is good, I want it more! Trying to get it regularly from different sources is too much time away from other goals and gets a female labeled like one guy posted as sluts.
Is an independent educated woman who is attractive enough to make 22 y/o men think "Helllooo, Mrs. Robinson!" so unattractive because she doesn't NEED you to "fix" her? Or, is it possibly that you think you somehow won't measure up because YOU think that she perceives herself as more man than you? If she is me, than she doesn't, she doesn't need you to fix her, but when she is sick, or things become overwhelming you won't see her struggle, how could you, she can't show that to a stranger in public that refuses to make a move. She would be labeled overly emotional. Yet you won't get close enough to see her private side, the one she wants you there to support, the one she wants to support you in as well… and isn’t it in privacy where most sex occurs?
So, maybe if some of the guys that see women as materialistic and slutty would actually have a few female friends, they might find someone like me...though if they act the way they wrote here, she will want nothing to do with so much bitter baggage!
An interesting article on education levels among women contributing to a lowered rate of marriage: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/02/01/do0101.xml
Post a Comment
<< Home