Sunday, November 12, 2006

Is Rumsfeld Rigid?

I spent all day at a conference Saturday at the University of Tennessee on the use of a psychologicial instrument, the Personality Assessment Inventory or PAI. The author of the instrument and a subsequent book on the topic, Leslie Morey, was there to explain how to use the test to evaluate personality traits. The workshop was informative, the presenter solid in his knowledge and the material was interesting.

If you have been reading my blog for a while, you will know that I am not very happy with the political correctness of the majority of liberals in the psychological field. I try hard to avoid workshops where I will be bombarded with politically correct positions about men as perpetrators and women as victims to the negative traits of conservatives. Why, you might ask do I avoid such drivel? Because I have been bombarded with that viewpoint throughout my career and do not want to hear the conservative bashing that often goes on in seminars like this. I go to workshops simply to learn the material outlined in the brochure like scoring and using a test and I do it only because I need to meet the Continuing Eduation requirements for psychologists in Tennessee. I can read, after all, and would get more from a book much of the time than from a lecture. If I wanted to hear about politics, I would be at a covention for that discussion. But I digress.

I did not hear one bad joke about Bush, politics or any other crack for three-fourths of the lecture. Just as I was falling into a false sense that perhaps I had found the perfect workshop where the topic was adhered to and no mention of politics was forthcoming, there it was. As the speaker explained one of the scales of the PAI having to do with treatment motivation, he quipped, "If the scale is too high, the person is too rigid and set in their ways, like Donald Rumsfeld." So there it was, I was hoping I could make it through the seminar without the cracks and putdowns of the current administration but it was not going to happen. To the speaker's credit, he did mention that he worked at Texas A & M and Robert Gates was one of the best administrators he had ever seen. However, the use of Rumsfeld's name to make a point about the negative aspects of a test score on a scale measuring rigidity was not science or fact. It was an opinion and was not necessary.

So is Rumsfeld rigid? I don't think that rigid is the right word. If rigid means uncompromising, demanding of high quality work, sticking to your guns as an agent of change, then yes. But the use of the term rigid by the speaker above makes these traits sound negative, when they can indeed, be positive in certain settings, like in the military. My problem with some psychological tests and their inventors, is that what they perceive to be psychological well-adjustment in their eyes is not always what we need in times of war, in the military or in the society in general. Only history will tell us if Rumsfeld's traits were really rigid, or if they were the traits that we needed at the time but cast aside because we misinterpreted the traits of a leader in a negative light. By contrast, who would decribe the civil rights leaders or suffragettes as "rigid" even though they stuck to their guns for decades?

60 Comments:

Anonymous Kurt R. Todoroff said...

George Carlin once said that all of the answers are in our words. Why do we call them "apartments?" If Con is the opposite of Pro, then is Congress the opposite of Progress?

Helen said, "I don't think that rigid is the right word. If rigid means uncompromising, demanding of high quality work, sticking to your guns as an agent of change, then yes . . ." Extending her comments further, if these attributes define rigid, and if rigid is bad, then "compromising" must be good, less than "quality work" must be good, and "stagnation" must be good. Inside or outside of the military, who would accept this? Would you accept this at the restaurants that you frequent? How about the clothing stores where you shop? How about your doctor, dentist, accountant, or therapist?

I wonder if the speaker at Helen's seminar visits medical doctors who compromise on his checkups, and who are content with medium quality. I wonder if he chose a similar accountant to prepare his annual tax return.

11:30 AM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

I have no formal training in psychology, I am a businessman, but your comments provoke some thoughts-

Helen says: "My problem with some psychological tests and their inventors, is that what they perceive to be psychological well-adjustment in their eyes is not always what we need in times of war, in the military or in the society in general."

If Rummy is "rigid" perhaps he needs to go on a regimen of daily medication to loosen him up.

I have often wondered about this with respect to the widespread use of psychiatric medications these days. Perhaps they are necessary because many people cannot function inside the parameters now considered "normal" without them. Society has changed so fast that characteristics which evolved over thousands of years are no longer useful, and in many cases are detrimental to an individual's ability to function. Individuals who cannot cope in this "brave new world" are given these tests and then pidgeonholed into a category of suffering from a "disorder". Then, doctors modify our brain chemistry to bring us back into a comfort zone using brain chemistry modifying medications with no more thought than using fertilizer and insecticides to grow enough food to feed us all.

Perhaps it is necessary, just as agricultural technology is now necessary in the modern world, to treat adventuresome boys with Ritalin to get them to pay attention in class. Perhaps it is necessary to treat people who are in overly stressful jobs with SSRI's to boost their seratonin levels to the point that they feel at ease making difficult decisions. But where do we stop? When do we start prescribing medications to reduce seratonin levels in those we perceive as being megalomaniacs?

Maybe all this testing should be used to help people find a lifestyle they were more or less pre-programmed for at a much earlier age.

I am rambling, and really have no qualifications to discuss this, but those are my thoughts...

12:24 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Tomcal,

I do not think one needs "qualifications" to discuss the ills that they see in society. One only has to be observant and logical and ask questions. Yours seem to be just that. I remember on 9/11 being in my office as the towers came down and a young boy who was being treated for ADHD turned to his mom after hearing the news and said, "Don't worry, I am going to go after those bad guys." Was this impulsivity or the kind of attitude we need in our soldiers who enter the military? It probably depends who you ask.

12:34 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

I had dinner with John Farnam last night and will see him again today. Maybe I'll ask him..

12:58 PM, November 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tomcal-

No - large amounts of people don't need pharmaceuticals to "function" in todays society. But the pharmaceutical companies and the "mental health" establishment want you to think just that. The fact that you framed the issue in their terms and in the way they want the issue to be viewed means that their propaganda and their framing of the issues has been successful.

5:10 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

anonymous 5:10:

Yes they do seem to me to have a pill for every ill. And have been very successful in re-defining behaviors once considered just personality traits into "disorders" which they can subsequenly medicate.

Another question is how does the public fight back when you have new "disorders" being created all the time by the psychiatric and pharmaceutical industries? I don't have any answers but the trend seems to me to be moving forward unchecked; and it affects everyone from job applicants to schoolkids.

It seems as if we are now being counseled and medicated into politically correct behavior. Rings of the reprogramming camps for dissenters in former Soviet Union to me.

As Neil Young says: "Don't want no TV ad telling me how sick I am."

5:46 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

I use the PAI much more than the MMPI because it gives me more information about impression management. I am waiting for Les' Adolescent version as I do not find the MMPI-A very helpful.

And, some personality traits go well with some job descriptions. Histrionics go with good entertainers, a little OCD is a plus in the person who cuts your hair, and I think some rigidity goes well with police work.

Interesting, all the soldiers that I worked with who ran point on patrols in Iraq had ADD. They were perfest for the job; alert, responsive to novel stimuli, they can hyperfocus on an adrenaline filled task.

So I think Rumsfeld was PERFECTLY rigid.

Trey

6:54 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Trey,

Just as an aside, Dr. Morey said he is finishing up the adolescent version of the PAI and it will be out at some point in the hopefully not too distant future. I also would like to use it with adolescents--it gives a terrific clinical snapshot.

7:18 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

That's me, I need to hyperfocus on adrenaline filled tasks. There just aren't enough of them in this day and age. Plus, I've managed to live long enough to want to avoid the danger.

10:49 PM, November 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now, I'm just a layperson, but it seems rather unprofessional to be making a diagnosis of someone that the therapist has never met, had the opportunity to observe or interview, and about whom he knows nothing besides what is reported in the newspaper.

12:51 AM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 12:51:

I realize the speaker is just making a joke and a jab at Rumsfeld, but it is so predictable and uncalled for--I just get tired of hearing it in academic settings or in the presence of liberals who have such groupthink that they think everyone feels and thinks like them. Mark Warner, in one of our podcasts made a joke about Cheney which fell flat with Glenn and me. I imagine that he is used to getting a lot of laughs at the administration's expense typically.

7:26 AM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So I think Rumsfeld was PERFECTLY rigid.

Except when he happens to be wrong.

7:59 AM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Well ANON, that remains to be seen, does it not? Let's check back in a year from now and we will have good data about how wrong he was. I curently belive he was more right than mistaken, you seem to have a diferent idea. Time will tell, will it not?

Trey

11:11 AM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous bgs said...

Rumsfeld is the modern McNamara - another clever civilian who thinks he knows better how to wage war than men and women who have studied and practiced it all their lives. It's one thing to monkey with the defense budget in peace time; it's another to ignore the advice of your commanders during an actual war. A military genius can get away with that sometimes. Rumsfeld is not a military genius.

12:31 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous bgs said...

On the other hand:

Q: "Is Rumsfeld rigid?"
A: "I don't know - ask Mrs. Rumsfeld..."

Sorry. Sometimes these things have to be done.

12:41 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous bgs said...

Can I get a rimshot for that one? Anybody? Hello...?

12:43 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well ANON, that remains to be seen, does it not? Let's check back in a year from now and we will have good data about how wrong he was. I curently belive he was more right than mistaken, you seem to have a diferent idea. Time will tell, will it not?

Time has already spoken.

- The Iraq war was an illegal war - there is no such thing as "pre-emptive" war. The war was illegal under international law that we agreed to and helped draft. Saddam's Iraq was crippled by over a decade of sanctions, the no-fly zones, the inspections, etc. It was not a credible threat to the US.

- From a terrorism standpoint, the Iraq invasion and occupation made things worse. It has created a huge terrorist recruiting and training ground. It has created thousands of new blood enemies. (Think about each wedding we bomb - the only question is whether we create one dozen or two dozen new blood enemies when that happens.)

- Rumsfeld repeatedly pushed his pet theory that 21st century warfare can be waged with much less manpower due to technology, training, communications, etc. So he used Iraq as a huge laboratory and our troops and Iraqi civilians as lab rats, repeatedly ignoring the advice of seasoned, experienced military commanders who insisted that we needed much larger numbers of troops. (The war was a horrible mistake to begin with, but it became even more of a disaster because Rumsfeld insisted on pushing his pet theory of low troop levels.)

- The idea of installing democracies in the middle east by force is nonsense. Most of the people in those countries identify by religion, tribe, clan, and family. If you succeed in destroying the original government, quelling civil unrest, and holding elections the people will vote for the muslim clergy (mullahs, etc.) or those beholden to them. Then the government will head towards islamic law and customs, not modern western liberal democracy. So you won't create modern western-style democracy, you will tend to create islamic states. On the way there you will have a feedback loop of violence, lost lives, and lost money. (And no, I'm not saying that people in the middle east "aren't ready for democracy" or the like, I'm just saying that their underlying culture is much different from ours. When democracy is enacted many tend to vote for religious figures or those allied with them.)

- If the notion that modern democracies can be installed by force in the middle east is incorrect, the Neocon fantasy about starting a middle east "domino effect" where the other countries magically have revolutions and become modern, western-style democracies is even more incorrect.

So from all of the above I don't need any more data, Rumsfeld was one of the key figures involved in tragically creating a deadly, horrendous, unnecessary mess in Iraq.

NOTE 1: This is by no means criticizing our troops - they were dropped into a horrible, unwinnable situation. They are being misused and abused.

NOTE 2: I don't "hate America" or "blame America first". I love my country. But I have some serious problems with my country's government and it's policies. And the two are not the same thing.

1:22 PM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Anon typed: "The Iraq war was an illegal war - there is no such thing as "pre-emptive" war." We disagree, but what has this to do with Rumsfeld? He cannot declare war. You oppose the war, OK. What has this to do with Rumsfeld?

"From a terrorism standpoint, the Iraq invasion and occupation made things worse." We disagree, but Rumsfeld is not the president. Rumsfeld cannot and did not declare war.

"Rumsfeld repeatedly pushed his pet theory that 21st century warfare can be waged with much less manpower due to technology, training, communications, etc." Yes he did, and I am skeptical about this idea as you are. Time we tell is we are right or he was.

"The idea of installing democracies in the middle east by force is nonsense." We disagree. I wonder if people had the same doubts that you do when we Democratized Japan by force? Different countries, but time will tell.

"So from all of the above I don't need any more data," Things change my friend. People who are not willing to recognize the change and admit that they were wrong STAY wrong and are left behind. I ALWAYS welcome more data, because I really like being correct! If you do not need anymore data, it makes me wonder if your stance involved any data at all.

I am Presbyterian, and one of the few things I like about my denomination is a guiding statement: "The Church reformed, always reforming." I try to live my life that way too.

Time has a way of sorting out theories. I may be totally wrong in my assessment of Rumsfeld, but I will admit as much because I am open to new data.

Trey

2:27 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Predictable and uncalled for? Groupthink?

Pot...meet kettle.

Trey:

I assume there are many things you like about your denomination,no? Otherwise, why be a part?

4:30 PM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Hey Anon 4:30 - Good question, why remain a Presbyterian when there are so many things I disagree with them about. Well, my local congregation is really happening!

I became involved with the church again as I was going through a nasty custody dispute. I was terrified that I would lose my daughter, and I was hurting. The dispute lasted several years, made it to appeals, and cost three cars. My congregation helped, they listened, they loved my daughter when she was there, they gave me a place to stay busy when she was not there.

I made it through that, my daughter spends almost half her time with me (Praise God) and then I got married to a wonderful woman in that church. We stayed active, then found out my wife was expecting triplets in that church. (Well, not in the church, but you know what I mean!) They supported us through the terror of not feeling equipped to raise three infants before they were born, and supplied many a meal and much help after they were indeed born.

Now my oldest is 12 and the triplets are 4 and they all love going to church. The pastor makes me think, the Sunday School is helping me become a better Christian, and so my whole family is blessed by God to be there.

Then the denomination comes up with some nonsense about "holy womb" or refusing to do business with companies that are part of building the wall in Israel or some other lefty hogwash.

So that is whay I am upset with the denomination, and that is why I stay with the local congregation. The locals have had my back for 9 years, and I owe them. Bigtime!

Trey

5:45 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink-

We disagree, but what has this to do with Rumsfeld? He cannot declare war. You oppose the war, OK. What has this to do with Rumsfeld?

He, along with the other neocons, was instrumental in pushing and selling the war. Especially the effort to use 9/11 as an excuse to attack Iraq, which didn't have anything to do with 9/11. I believe they even have some pretty strong evidence for this - like his notes stressing the use of 9/11 as an excuse to go after Iraq.

Yes he did, and I am skeptical about this idea as you are. Time we tell is we are right or he was.

Nearly open civil war. Hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties. A constant flow of US military casualties. Billions upon billions continuously being thrown at it - and several of those billions being blatantly stolen from taxpayers. All the worldwide goodwill from 9/11 evaporated and turned to loathing. The army, the reserves, and the national guard just being run ragged and broken. Etc, etc, etc... I've seen enough data already.

We disagree. I wonder if people had the same doubts that you do when we Democratized Japan by force? Different countries, but time will tell.

The Japanese are much different culturally.

If you do not need anymore data, it makes me wonder if your stance involved any data at all.

Well, I just rattled off some data.

6:57 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is amusing to see "civil rights leaders" and "stuck to their guns" in the same sentence. I would have chosen an alternative metaphor, particularly for those who advocated peaceful resistance rather than warfare to settle problems.

Some of the greatest conquerors were those who were flexible in battle and learned from their adversaries.

What did "sticking to his guns" get Napoleon in his attempt to conquer Russia?

Robert E. Lee was a brilliant military tactician who also was notoriously flexible (perhaps he would have succeeded if he only had more resources). His flexibility in battle confounded the much better-equipped northern forces. He likely would have been a tremendous failure if his tactics were at all rigid. You can't run a calvary and be rigid at the same time. Fluidity is of utmost military value in any offensive maneuver.

I believe the entrenchment we have encountered (or created) in Iraq is a giant military blunder. But only history will show us the extent of our grievous mistakes.

We can decide what "rigid" means when we're talking about castles or occupation of a hostile land.

How long do we keep Iraq under seige before we realize "rigid" may not be the only tactic that is worth evaluating (and reconsidering)?

Does rigid work in fisticuffs? Does it work in Nature? Does the tree which remains rigid in the force of a hurricane remain standing?

Rigid works for certain things, doesn't work for others. It's not a quality as much as a tactic. I think it's inappropriate for anyone to resort to ad hominem fallacies in a scientific environment, but you also don't offer any positive characteristic whereby we have an alternative to label the rigid Rummy. You merely suggest he's not rigid, but you don't really tell us what you think of him.

I guess that one is left as "an exercise for the reader".

8:29 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous JKB said...

I'm considering canceling my subscription to The Economist for the such out of context editorializing. In the past year, their so called journalists included slights against Bush and others in any story they can to the extent they detract from the story. I don't mind opinion in an opinion piece but to many stories use the same language you cited that aren't necessary for the subject.

11:16 PM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Anon 6:57 wrote: "Nearly open civil war." Agreed, this makes me wonder if your assessment is correct. Time will tell.

"Hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties." A disputed number to be sure, the Lancet numbers have been discredited. It is difficult to distinguish between civilians and terrorists too.

"A constant flow of US military casualties." Flow, isn't it more like a trickle? Didn't more soldiers die in the first day of Normandy than have died in this war? The brave men and women who have died are heroes, not suckers (not that you intimated so, I am thinking of Kerry here.) Their deaths have kept us free from attack for 5 years. That is one mission accomplished. Have as many US soldiers died in Irag as civilians died on Sept 11?

"Billions upon billions continuously being thrown at it - and several of those billions being blatantly stolen from taxpayers." I am concerned about this as well, we will know more as we get an accounting, but I suspect that you are correct about graft and corruption.

"All the worldwide goodwill from 9/11 evaporated and turned to loathing." All? All is a HUGE number! We are loathed in some quarters and honored in others. In my personal life, I am proud of my friends and proud of my enemies as well.

"The army, the reserves, and the national guard just being run ragged and broken." The soldiers and friends I correspond with, as well as those whom I met in my practice NEVER complained about being run ragged and broken. Never. They are a small sample, but what makes you think our soldiers are being run ragged?

Well at least our new congress will fund the soldiers adequately. Right? Only time will tell on that one too.

"Etc, etc, etc... I've seen enough data already." I think it would be more correct to say that you have heard enough opinion that matches your own, and you are satisfied. I think you may very well be correct on at least a couple of your points. And I expect to see these opinions validated on those matters. On some I think you are dead wrong, and a couple leave me agnostic. But it will take data to answer the questions. And data takes time to gather, evaluate, and understand. Perhaos your rush to "judgment" is more a feeling than an analysis.

Trey

11:56 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink-

A disputed number to be sure, the Lancet numbers have been discredited. It is difficult to distinguish between civilians and terrorists too.

The Lancet numbers were generated some time ago. I was being conservative - the civilian casualties are at least in the hundreds of thousands.

Flow, isn't it more like a trickle? Didn't more soldiers die in the first day of Normandy than have died in this war?

ANY casualties are a tragedy, especially when we're talking about an illegal war of choice.

The brave men and women who have died are heroes, not suckers (not that you intimated so, I am thinking of Kerry here.)

They are brave, which makes it such a tragedy that they are being misused in an illegal war of choice.

Their deaths have kept us free from attack for 5 years.

Unfortunately I don't think this is accurate. The Iraq war has multiplied the number of terrorists and radicalized more muslims. If the resources spent on the war had been spent more wisely the borders would be sealed and our ports would be much more secure. This is the fault of the civilian leadership, not the troops.

The soldiers and friends I correspond with, as well as those whom I met in my practice NEVER complained about being run ragged and broken. Never. They are a small sample, but what makes you think our soldiers are being run ragged?

I wasn't referring to individual troops, I was referring to how some senior military officers have been commenting on how mainly the reserves and national guard (and to some extent regular army) are being misused and broken. They're using stop-loss and reserve/national guard mobilization as back door drafts.

See here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A51687-2005Jan5.html

"The head of the Army Reserve has sent a sharply worded memo to other military leaders expressing "deepening concern" about the continued readiness of his troops, who have been used heavily in Iraq and Afghanistan, and warning that his branch of 200,000 soldiers "is rapidly degenerating into a 'broken' force."

1:17 AM, November 14, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Good article Anon, you should read it! The majority of the criticism is aainst policies, not against deployment. The general in question is in charge of keeping up the reserve, he has NOTHING to do with troup levels in the field. While you remembered and drew from the response of the Democratic senators spinning the article, you missed the point of the general's statements. He was not saying that the reserve and guard were broken from battle, but that he needed more soldiers here NOT in battle. That is his domain, not the field of war.

This adds to my belief that you are cherry picking information and opinion and do not want to see how things develop because the facts may interrupt your beliefs. But as I tend to repeat, time will either vindicate or repudiate your ideas as well as mine. Let's just wait, then we will see.

Trey

9:59 AM, November 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink-

The war was a criminal mistake undertaken for insane, unrealistic, ridiculous reasons. There's an old saying that when you're in a hole the thing to do is to stop digging. I don't think a "wait and see" approach holds when people are dying. Especially when continuing the mistake is making things worse.

6:15 PM, November 14, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Anon: Did you know that the United States entering WWII led to a sharp increase in the Nazi party? Should we have avoided that war too?

Some things are worth dieing for. Our freedom and safety are two of them. Your platitudes are easy to repeat, but would have serious, deadly consequences if followed.

Trey

12:57 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger Mark in Texas said...

For those of you who are not so rigid in their beliefs that you don't need more data, here is an interview from last year that might provide evidence on whether Donald Rumsfeld is too rigid.

Rumsfeld Interview

6:33 AM, November 15, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink-

Anon: Did you know that the United States entering WWII led to a sharp increase in the Nazi party? Should we have avoided that war too?

So? I hope you're not trying to compare me to the Nazis, that's ridiculous. And ridiculously insulting.

Re: WWII. No, we should have avoided WWI. Both sides were pretty punched out and if we had stayed out of it there might have been a more equitable settlement. No crippling sanctions on Germany = Less depression & civil unrest = No rise of Hitler and the Nazis.

But that's all woulda-coulda-shoulda. Yes the Nazis needed to be stopped. But that doesn't mean that Iraq is a just, necessary war - it isn't.

Some things are worth dieing for. Our freedom and safety are two of them. Your platitudes are easy to repeat, but would have serious, deadly consequences if followed.

Yes, when our freedom and safety are actually at stake. In the case of Iraq they weren't. The Iraq war is illegal and unnecessary.

7:11 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Of COURSE I am not trying to compare you to the Nazis! I mean come on man, I post all the time here and am not prone to calling people names. My web site links to my family pictures for goodness sake! We are disagreeing, I am not calling you names.

Besides,you are supposed to call ME a Nazi and I am supposed to call YOU a commie. That is the way stupid name calling goes when liberals (that is you) and conservatives (guess who) disagree and act like children. But I digress.

Try the decaf, I was referring to your earlier statement that the war is wrong headed because the number of terrorists has risen. Well, I think it was you, the Anon thing makes that difficult.

Of COURSE the number of terrorists have risen, just like the number of Nazis rose when the US entered the war. Stupid! (OK, that was a joke, I am laughing, I hope you are too. I do not think you are stupid or a Nazi or even a stupid Nazi. I just disagree with you. It is OK, really, I even disagree with my wife on rare occasions.)

Thanks for the statement about avoiding WWI. It lets me know where you are coming from. While I agree that the punitive sanctions led to the rise of the Nazis, I think Germany was not beaten enough and that led to WWI. After a sound thrashing Europs and the US should have helped them avoid the crippling aftermath instead of starving them.

The lesson from recent history is that peace comes after a well won war. I realize this will seem like madness to you, but I believe that history shows us this.

Congress gave the president the OK. That makes the war legal. As for a mistake, I like the fact that present day Nazis (not you gentle Anon) are dying by the thousands in Irag. That works for me. It doesn't hurt that NOBODY has been dying at the hands of present day Nazis here in America.

I worry that will change when the snip and sprint starts. But only TIME WILL TELL!!!!!!!

Trey - not an idealogue who is incapable of changing his mind

10:23 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Mark, thanks for the link to the interview. Seems Rummy is much better in a one on one situation than he is in front of the press.

Trey

10:28 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

To re-phrase my original question provoked by Dr. Helen's comments in my layman's brain: If the psychological community is predominantly left-leaning, is that not going to translate into the design and interperatation of these tests and their results going to lead to diagnoses of disorders when in fact all they are identifying is a tendency to disagree with the political concensus of the psychiatric community?

11:31 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Good question. I think, I HOPE that depression, bipolar, and various personality disorders are more on the minds of my colleagues than their political views when it comes to test construction. Most of the tests are orientated toward the current version of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, our Bible of diagnosis. Now there is a boatload of minor tests that are less noteworthy, reliable, and valid.

Political concerns DO impact the DSM, as we see when homosexuality was declassified as a mental disorder ( a good thing) and dependent personality disorder was similarly declassifed (a bad and inaccurate thing.) The latter was taken out because it was most often applied to women. That is sexist don'tyankow. I am holding my breath waiting for the same thing to be done to antisocial personality disorder because men are usually diagnosed with this disoder. I passed blue several years ago.

I wonder how the folks on the DSM committees can ignore the neuroligical brain differences between men and women? But I digress.

So far there is no Conservative Delusional Disorder, or (more likely I fear) Christian Psychosis. So political beliefs and practices have not wormed their way into the diagnoses too much. I hope that keeps us free from insidious mental health persecution.

Trey

11:53 AM, November 15, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink-

Besides,you are supposed to call ME a Nazi and I am supposed to call YOU a commie. That is the way stupid name calling goes when liberals (that is you) and conservatives (guess who) disagree and act like children. But I digress.

NOT a liberal. Libertarian. BIG difference. Libertarians tend to infuriate both liberals and conservatives. The left-right dichotomy really needs to be scrapped, its a crude oversimplification.

As far as the other stuff is concerned: War wasn't officially declared and there's no such thing as a "pre-emptive" war. A "pre-emptive" war is just a made-up term manufactured for policy reasons, sort of like "enemy combatant". It was a war of aggression which is illegal under international law.

As for a mistake, I like the fact that present day Nazis (not you gentle Anon) are dying by the thousands in Irag. That works for me. It doesn't hurt that NOBODY has been dying at the hands of present day Nazis here in America.

That doesn't matter - our efforts there allow for the recruitment of training for many more than we kill. And a lot of the killing is unnecessary as well, since the violence was triggered by instability that we created. (That isn't even getting into the civilian casualties and the infrastructure damage.) Eventually the terrorists will get over here because our borders aren't sealed. The invasion of Iraq has made us less safe.

3:59 PM, November 15, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Trey,

"Interesting, all the soldiers that I worked with who ran point on patrols in Iraq had ADD. They were perfest for the job; alert, responsive to novel stimuli, they can hyperfocus on an adrenaline filled task.'

Interesting to hear an actual professioanl confirm this. It is conventional wisdom in the Army. ADD is obviously adaptive in combat, and more than that it even characteizes the organizations developed for combat. Non-ADD people (Alertness Deficit Syndrome? Bovine Attention Syndrome?)tend to do poorly in the Army even in peacetime. They are simply a misfit minority in the Army.

Re the debate on causes or non-causes of WWII and ho the outcome of WWI was mishandled - the debate is idle. The whole 20th century mess - WWI-WWII, the Bolshevik Revolution and the Cold WAr were just the inevitable play-out of centuries of development in Europe - the class contradictions of industrialization, and the tensions between tribal states trying to act like independent nations, all competing for colonies and empires. WWI was basically inevitable, and once the process started it was like a train wreck, and trying to stop it in 1918 or 1945 was beyond anyone.

5:12 PM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger Rowena Hullfire said...

anonymous 12:51 a.m. said: Now, I'm just a layperson, but it seems rather unprofessional to be making a diagnosis of someone that the therapist has never met, had the opportunity to observe or interview, and about whom he knows nothing besides what is reported in the newspaper.

That's what I was thinking, even before reading the commentbox.

I'm not a layperson, I'm an LPCC, and one important part of professional learning early on is humility and the ethical code.

Perhaps the ethical code for psychologists is looser?

If not, why aren't professionals holding each other accountable? This stuff happens only because no one is addressing it.

8:10 PM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Hey Anon, first, there is no International law. We are only beholding to our Constitution. And we followed it. Thus, nothing illegal going on.

Second, it must be nice to be so right! You do not share opinions, you make pronouncements! Sadly, I make mistakes and errors of judgment. Perhaps you should ignore the ramblings of such an imperfect soul as I.

Trey

12:36 AM, November 16, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Well, there are diagnoses and diagnoses. If someone says it, it is an opinion. If someone shares it with an insurance company, it is another matter. If a diagnosis is stated in court, that my friends, is a diagnosis!

Seriously, rigid is diagnosis. And many of ther "diagnoses" are used as shorthand. "Borderline" means the patient will be a pain to work with, "Narcissist" means they will bore you, stuff like that. A joke, even a bad one at a presentation, is just a joke. Well, that is my take, Helen does more court work than I and may have a better take on this.

Trey

12:41 AM, November 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hey Anon, first, there is no International law. We are only beholding to our Constitution. And we followed it. Thus, nothing illegal going on.

Very wrong. When the US signs a treaty it becomes US LAW that is second only to the Constitution in supremacy. Signing an international treaty like an anti-torture treaty means it becomes law that is second only to the Constitution.

Second, it must be nice to be so right! You do not share opinions, you make pronouncements! Sadly, I make mistakes and errors of judgment. Perhaps you should ignore the ramblings of such an imperfect soul as I.

What passive-aggressiveness. Be careful, someone might try to diagnose you with oppositional defiance disorder. Or borderline. Or bipolar. Or clinical depression. Or ADHD. Hmmmm - I sound desperate to diagnose you with something. Maybe I have an agenda.

6:37 AM, November 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink:

Where can I find the diagnosis "rigid" under the DSM-IV?

7:56 AM, November 16, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

NOT a diagnosis, NOT a diagnosis. So sorry Anon, I typed that LATE, there was a NOT in my brain but not in my hands. Thanks for spotting this. Rigid is NOT a diagnosis. Sadly, dyslexia and ADD are.

Trey

9:32 AM, November 16, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Hey other ANON, I DO have ADHD, so too late! I am just frustrated that you won't have a discussion you just spout talking points. Other posters have alluded to the same. You already know the "truth" and it is pointless to discuss further. Cause there was no discuss there in the first place. Good luck, God bless you.

Trey

9:35 AM, November 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink-

Hey other ANON, I DO have ADHD, so too late! I am just frustrated that you won't have a discussion you just spout talking points. Other posters have alluded to the same. You already know the "truth" and it is pointless to discuss further. Cause there was no discuss there in the first place. Good luck, God bless you.

Didn't know about the ADHD, if you felt insulted I apologize.

While I am rather convinced that my views on the Iraq war are correct, I do listen to other viewpoints.

Re: "Throwing out points": That's how a discussion/debate goes - each side throws out some points and the other side criticizes those points and/or comes out with answering points or new ones.

9:58 AM, November 16, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Hey Anon, no offense taken! I laughed when I read the post, wondering if you were only being funny or were also being impresively sensitive and picking up some of my symptoms. While I appreciate the appology, it is not at all necessary. My interesting brain functioning is more often a source of amusement than inconvienence. OK, it sucks when I look for my keys for 30 minutes and end up finding them in the refrigerator. Well, it sucks for an hour till I get interested in something else.

Remember: ADD means never having to say . . . Hey did you catch the Zinni statements about the war? What were we talking about?

Take care. Trey

10:12 AM, November 16, 2006  
Blogger tomcal said...

Trey, thanks for your patient explanation of the DSM.

Why do you say ADHD shoud not be in there? My kid has it. I probably would have had it when I was a kid, had it existed.

Also, I thought it was well established by the PC community years ago that mens' and womens' brains are identical, except when it is convenient for them not to be.

Tom

11:50 AM, November 17, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

The current research on ADD is that it has higher genetic loading than just about any trait excepting height. So your child may certainly have had that passed down from you! I was telling this to my wife, my daughter overheard and started laughing. I said "Laugh all you want smartypants, your dad has ADD and your mother is short!" I always look for the parent who has it when interviewing a minor.

ADD certainly does belong in the DSM, it is likely I just got so distracted I mistyped. We have the pictures (spect brain scans) now, so there is little controversy left regarding the diagnosis. To see for yourself, check out www.brainplace.com.

Take care.

Trey

3:43 PM, November 17, 2006  
Blogger Chap said...

A comment on a different aspect of your post:

If rigid means uncompromising, demanding of high quality work, sticking to your guns as an agent of change, then yes. But the use of the term rigid by the speaker above makes these traits sound negative, when they can indeed, be positive in certain settings, like in the military.

In the military, like in other places, there are times to be uncomprimising, and times to learn and adapt faster than the other guy. I've seen some people fail in a military environment by following one or more of those aspects of "rigid" too closely in a situation that requires something different.

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