Sunday, November 12, 2006

How many paedophiles can there be?

First, it was the New Zealand airlines demonizing men as potential pedophiles and having them change seats if they were sitting next to a minor child--now it's British Airways (Hat tip: Mercurior):

I mean, come off it, folks. How many paedophiles can there be? Are we really saying that any time an adult male finds himself sitting next to someone under 16, he must expect to be hustled from his seat before the suspicious eyes of the entire cabin?

What about adult females? Every week there is some new tale of what a saucy French mistress is deemed to have done with her adolescent charges behind the bicycle sheds; and, disgraceful though these episodes may be, I don't hear anyone saying that children should be shielded from adult women. Do you? Or maybe I'm wrong — maybe all adults will have to carry personal cardboard partitions with them on every plane or train, just in case they find themselves sitting next to under-16s.

Even as I write, I can imagine the lip-pursing of some of my lovely high-minded readers. How would you like it, they will say, if some weird chap was plonked next to your kids? And they are right that I would worry about some strange adult sitting next to my children, chiefly because I wouldn't want the poor fellow to come to any harm.

To all those who worry about the paedophile plague, I would say that they not only have a very imperfect understanding of probability; but also that they fail to understand the terrible damage that is done by this system of presuming guilt in the entire male population just because of the tendencies of a tiny minority.


The author of this opinion piece is right that the damage done to society because of the mistrust of men is high and far reaching--he points out that many men no longer teach kids, particularly in the area of physics, math and chemistry and it is hurting our science base. Just when we need more physics teachers teaching young people, we may see fewer men who are willing to take the job because the stakes of being called a perp are too high. Will the demonization of men hurt the science profession? I sure hope not.

48 Comments:

Anonymous Pete said...

If thet tried to move me, a ruckus would ensue. The only time I can get some elbow room in the ridiculously narrow seats they sell is when I'm seated next to a person of small stature. Demonizing male strangers as potential pedophiles ignores the fact that most victims are molested by people they know. Perhaps forcing the parents to be seated away from their child would be more prudent.

12:19 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Doug Wade said...

You would think if it were really airline policy that the ticketing computer would just take care of it without anybody ever realizing what's going on.

12:32 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Doug Wade,

Yes, or parents could put in a request when they buy a ticket for the unaccompanied minor which then takes it out of the hands of the airlines.

12:38 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i am in 2 minds about this, its bad that they demonise men, but.. there isnt nothing worse than flying for 7 hours sitting next to a wriggling little brat. and you are expected to look after it..

this has happened to my fiancee, and we see kids running wild throwing things etc.. why cant parents look after their own kids.. sit with them.. and let the parents take care of them..

3:33 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

this man who wrote the article (boris johnson) was a MP, member of parliament. perhaps he will say something to someone.. we can all hope he will

3:39 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Graham Strouse said...

How about English teachers? Not to be sexist, but how many great female novelists can you name off the top of your head?

I mean great. Not okay. Hey, the novel is not my form. Personally, I tend to do best with long essays (I can think of quite a few great female essayists) & poetry (jury is out here, but I've edited a lot of poets & known more A-rank women then men, a lot more).

But novels, take away George Sands, the Bronte sisters, Mary Shelley (her husband was the poet--just shows you can't judge a book by it's, uh, something) & what have you got left?

Not much. There's "Sense & Sensibility," of course. And you could make a case (I would) that Ms. Rowling is a kick-A tweenie authoress, but it really is a short list.

Most of the great novels & plays & histories (pardon, B.T., you are da bomb when it comes to 14th Century France & no mistake) were & are written by men.

Finding a woman who can write a believable female character is a challenge. They seem to be worse at this sort of thing.

Let's not inflict upon the little ones PC authoresses who are the literary equivalent of a double-A ball-player.

On the other hand, I think a lot of guys could get into early Didion (novels & essays) & late Didion (essays only, and she's getting a little weird even there).

And I once a poetry smackdown against a rabid feminist with a selection of poems from "Ariel", which I happen to love.

Same way I love Revelations, Chapter 6, really. And "Terminator 2."

Plath was one fine poet. Technicians prefer her husband, who was pretty good & a great editor (S&T had a super-solid professional relationship. AAs to the romantic relationshop...best not to get into that. Let the dead be at peace.)

But Ted's stuff doesn't have a beat & you can't dance to it.

I dunno.

I read everything. I've read a lot of great essayists (both sexes), great novelists (mostly men) & great poets (mostly women, although I am fond of Eliot & Thomas--so was my girl Sylvia, actually & the style shows).

I've edited a lot of poets and most of the great ones were female.

In short, I know a lot about literature. I know more contemporary feminist scribes them most self-proclaimed feminists I talk to.

But I ain't gonna pretend & up-rate a female novelist or male poet unless I think they're saying something worth saying, and saying it well.

No way.

So how about a nod for male English teachers, huh?

And btw--My Aunt Mary teaches math & comp sci, has been for 30+ years and she is GREAT at it. And she has a learning disability which makes it a little harder to handle non-sequential/spatial systems. And she's still GREAT.

We've talked about teaching a bit. Her technique, well, she's just brilliant. A lot of girls (and guys) in the field could learn from Mary. But the guys would pick up the method faster, I think. She thinks like us, I suspect. Maybe more like us then we do.

Can't judge a (text) book by it's cover, eh?

4:13 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

The largest part of the answer to child sexual abuse is giving ALL our children safety training. Most perverts who bother children are careful about who the bother, they pick carefully and groom the children. Trained children are harder to groom, report faster, and make better witnesses.

Then you lock up the pervert for 20 years. It would work.

I start my children's safety training at 3. And then I review it with them periodically. By 7 my eldest daughter would roll her eyes and spout off the three kinds of touch and what to do if anyone tried to give her a secret touch. "I remember, OK daddy?" Ok honey, mission accomplished.

Trey

7:00 PM, November 12, 2006  
Anonymous Mollysdad said...

Ironically, 99% of the men they might happen to move away from the little ones would willingly die in flames to save the kids' lives.

That's the way we are.

7:39 PM, November 12, 2006  
Anonymous Brian said...

On top of all that...is there anyplace safer for kids than an airplane? I mean, where is this theoretical molestation going to happen? In the 1 remaining cubic meter of open space on the plane?

If it's even possible to molest a child on a plane without getting caught, then clearly airline security needs some serious improvement.

9:23 PM, November 12, 2006  
Anonymous MS said...

@ Mercurior
"I am in 2 minds about this, it's bad that they demonise men, but.. there isn't nothing worse than flying for 7 hours sitting next to a wriggling little brat. and you are expected to look after it."

I think you're missing the point, Mercurior. If they sit you next to some annoying kid, you are entirely at liberty to request to be moved, but it's YOUR choice. Here, it's not. BA is deliberately fanning the flames of hysteria with a policy that is over-zealous in the extreme and for which they would be lynched were they to try applying it to any other sub group. The simple way to see this bigotry for what it is is to replace 'men' with some other minority:
"I'm sorry, you'll have to move. We don't allow blacks to sit next to children"
"I'm sorry, you'll have to move. We don't allow gays to sit next to children"
"I'm sorry, you'll have to move. We don't allow jews to sit next to children"

My second point is that discrimination against men in any issue regarding children has become so pervasive that I believe it has moved beyond mere exaggerated fear and towards a deliberate policy to control young minds: by systematically removing men from childrens' lives - from the family through divorce, restrictive visitation rights and restraining orders granted with a process that no country claiming itself to be free has any business calling justice, and from schools and other structured and unstructured activities through media driven suspicion, ever more onerous background checks, wholly unfair stigmatization on the basis of unfounded accusations, convoluted and petty liability-induced rules, punitive divorce/support awards requiring excessive hours at work etc. etc. etc. - by forcing a wedge between men and children in that way, it becomes possible to poison the minds of the next generation against men in a way that simply would not be possible otherwise.

Finally, checkout this article from last week which has some stats on how few male teachers there are now in the UK:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=415547&in_page_id=1770

9:53 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger BobH said...

To MS

"My second point is that discrimination against men in any issue regarding children has become so pervasive that I believe it has moved beyond mere exaggerated fear and towards a deliberate policy to control young minds: by systematically removing men from childrens' lives - from the family through divorce, restrictive visitation rights and restraining orders granted with a process that no country claiming itself to be free has any business calling justice, and from schools and other structured and unstructured activities through media driven suspicion, ever more onerous background checks, wholly unfair stigmatization on the basis of unfounded accusations, convoluted and petty liability-induced rules, punitive divorce/support awards requiring excessive hours at work etc. etc. etc. - by forcing a wedge between men and children in that way, it becomes possible to poison the minds of the next generation against men in a way that simply would not be possible otherwise."

There's one major problem with your theory: half of the minds in the next generation are going to be male. That has important implications about how much women can persecute men.

10:04 PM, November 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

bobh:

Wha? Haven't roughly half of the minds in ALL generations been male? So... I don't see how the "implications" of that fact alone can be terribly important.

10:26 PM, November 12, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i dont know if you have travelled a lot, but a lot of the times there is no other space to move too.

now as i said i am in 2 minds, one its good that as a male i wont suffer the problem, i remember once this little brat kept spitting, kicking the chair, his father was in the front seat and did nothing..

have you ever travelled with a kid like that.. its bad to say the least, so in that case i would gladly ask to move if there was room.

the other is it does demonise men, but where are the kids parents.. thats what i would like to ask, boris was the parent, but the other mothers and fathers.. shouldnt they be looking after their own kids, its not the duty of everyone to look after their kids, its not the staffs duty , where is the parental responsibility. the parents should look after their own kids.. but they would rather other people do it.

3:44 AM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

ms, bobh & anonymous:

We've yet to look at the effects misandry have on our boys. I'd bet they are rather nasty effects. BA, Quantas and crowd teach boys that THEY, they personally, are bad, evil and dangerous. That cannot be a good thing.

The are a few really nasty things about this:

- the number of women who posted their support for this policy
- the number of men who made jokes about the policy
- the refusal to see female offenders means that BA & crowd likely seat children next to REAL sex offenders & child abusers -- female ones: There are a lot more than most people think (as well as a lot fewer male sex offenders than most people think)

3:51 AM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Policies like this would not be tolerated of a New York second if any other group was the focus of the policy. Try and stop blacks, Muslims or women from sitting next to children and see what happens.

Under the perverse (pun intended) of the airlines men shouldn't sit next to women as an even greater percentage of rapist are man than child molesters. I couldn't sit next to a 14 year old boy but Debra "Too Pretty for Prison" Lafave could.

Next they'll start having separate restrooms and water fountains for men, maybe even restaurants. Sound familar? If you're over 50 it will.

10:36 AM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous bgs said...

What about female child kidnappers? Do those exist? And what could be easier than befriending a child on a long plane flight?

The correct policy should be, no unaccompanied minors on airline flights.

12:06 PM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger Kent said...

It's pervasive.

I was recently asked to assist with a Sunday School class for three- to four-year-old kids. The teacher I'm assisting is a young father and his kid is one of the ones in the class. Total of four kids. Two adult men to four little kids for a class lasting less than an hour.

The reason: Double coverage. I'm there to make sure the other guy doesn't molest the kids, and vice versa. Or perhaps the real story is that I'm there to make sure the other guy isn't falsely accused of molesting the kids, and vice versa.

Apparently one woman is okay, but one man or a man and a woman (other than husband and wife) are right out.

And, you know, I don't blame my church. I think they're being smart. It's the fact that this is now the smart policy that troubles me so much, becuase of what it says for the larger society.

12:13 PM, November 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Next they'll start having separate restrooms and water fountains for men, maybe even restaurants. Sound familar? If you're over 50 it will."

In my neighborhood, they already have separate restrooms for men and women. And a Hooters.

3:02 PM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Anon. 3:02

I meant separate restrooms for men and boys although we don't have neighborhood restrooms where I live.

Maybe we just need restroom attendants every where. At the TVA&I Fair, when I was a kid, they always had a man in the restroom "watching" it. At the time I wasn't sure why. It was common to tip him a quarter or something.

Of course, if we went back to that, who would watch the watcher? He could be a pervert too. After all, he's male.

3:44 PM, November 13, 2006  
Blogger Kent said...

Of course, if we went back to that, who would watch the watcher? He could be a pervert too. After all, he's male.

Sheesh, do I have to do all the thinking here? Obviously she won't be male!

9:57 AM, November 14, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

" How many paedophiles can there be?"

"The current study is the largest to date to employ pedophilic stimuli and genital measures with men drawn from a community sample of volunteers. The current results suggest that sexual arousal to pedophilic stimuli occurs among a sizable minority of normal men who report no pedophilic behavior and is not necessarily associated with pedophilic behavior. Consistent with previous data (Barbaree & Marshall, 1989; Briere & Runtz, 1989; Fedora et al., 1992; Freund & Watson, 1991), 20 % of the current subjects self-reported pedophilic interest and 26.25 % exhibited penile arousal to pedophilic stimuli that equaled or exceeded arousal to adult stimuli." - Hall, 1995

"What about adult females? Every week there is some new tale of what a saucy French mistress is deemed to have done with her adolescent charges behind the bicycle sheds"

That's child molestation, not paedophilia. Someone who is attracted to adolescents is an ephebophile.

"To all those who worry about the paedophile plague"

A "paedophile plague" does not exist. Paedophilia is an orientation (okay, according to the APA it's an illness), it does not imply sexual activity with children.

-

There will certainly be paedophiles sitting next to children on planes, but assuming that the majority of them are child molesters is ridiculous.

~ BLueRibbon, author of Paedosexuality

10:23 AM, November 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Blue Ribbon:

Paedophilia is a DANGEROUS illness and perversion that wrecks the lives of innocent children. Your NAMBLA garbage notwithstanding, it is not normal, not alternative, it is by definition sick and morally depraved. It is not the next civil right and you are not the next Dr. King. And I am not a bigot. What you are spewing is trash and deserves the same treatment.

Get yourself some help, don't con yourself into normalizing dangerous, deviant thoughts and behaviors. What is next? Civil rights for cannibals?

Fight your delusion, find a psychologist who specializes in treatment of child molesters and repudiate the thoughts and desires.

11:26 AM, November 14, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

You didn't really read my post, did you?

I'm not saying that it should be acceptable to have sex with children, I'm explaining that paedophilia is not sex with children. The APA make that reasonably clear in their definition, which states -

* Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
* The person has acted on these urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies cause marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
* The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Masturbating to thoughts of children is certainly acting on those urges, but it doesn't harm a child.


I don't support NAMbLA, because I don't support the abolition of AoC laws.

A thought is not dangerous, actions can be (in these circumstances they are). It is the thought which I am defending, but you aren't prepared to read what I write in order to understand that.

I will not go to a psychologist who treats child molesters, because I am not a child molester. I find children sexually attractive, which I do not believe requires treatment. If I went to a psychologist and explained that I'm attracted to children, he would treat me like a child molester, which is another reason why therapy is pointless.

Your stereotypes are based on one group of paedophile activists, NAMbLA. Don't apply their campaign focus to me, because it makes you look foolish.

11:44 AM, November 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Of course I look foolish to you: You masturbate while thinking about children.

It makes my day that I look foolish to you. I consider it personal validation. Thank you for sharing that.

Do you also ignite a flame thrower in a fireworks factory and say that is is OK because you are not attempting to create an explosion??? They pull you burned and smoking from the wreckage, everyone else burned to death, and you say "I don't know what happened! I was only fantasizing about lighting the cherry bombs. I did not mean to actually do it. I am not an arsonist, I just wish I was and spend my time fantasizing about it." Can somebody send this man a dollar, clues are on sale.

I read your post, you are a ticking time bomb trying to justify your illness and depravity. Get help, or get arrested. The folks inside jail will have a treament for you.

And I am trying to be polite. Nuff said. Can I get a witness here?

3:37 PM, November 14, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:07 PM, November 14, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

I'm interested in your opinion of "normal" heterosexuals who have rape fantasies. Are they "ticking time bombs" too, or does it only apply to people who are attracted to children?

"Get help"

Which, in your opinion, means,

"Go to a psychologist, tell him something that he'll think means "kiddiefucker", then life will be great!"

"or get arrested"

It's not illegal to be attracted to children. You managed to ignore that, ummm, significant fact.

Experts admit that they can't "cure" paedophilia. Are you really qualified to suggest otherwised?

5:10 PM, November 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People who masturbate while thinking of illegal, hurftul activies are indeed ticking time bombs.

Get help means work to reduce and eliminate your depraved, ill sexual desires.

It is not illegal to inject battery acid into your veins either. Just stupid and deadly.

You have a serious problem, you can work to to reduce it, or work to increase it. Your web site makes it clear what your choice is. Perhaps it is not too late for you to make a better choice. Perhaps it is.

1:02 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

"People who masturbate while thinking of illegal, hurftul activies are indeed ticking time bombs."

So, does that apply to "normal" men who have rape fantasies? If not, why does a particular sexual attraction make you more likely to act on your urges?

"You have a serious problem, you can work to to reduce it"

Are the World's experts wrong when they say they don't know how to "cure" paedophilia? Would you tell someone that you're a paedophile if you thought that the psychologist would treat you like a child molester?

Your "solutions" are rehashed, debunked belief.

6:07 AM, November 15, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If I WERE a likely child molester who masturbated while thinking of having sex with children, I hope to God someone would give me the help I needed. Desperately. And I would seek it. I would pray for it, I would fast for it, I would light candles, I would go to a monastary, I would do what it took. If I had to go through 15 therapists to find one who could help me I would.

I would call them up and say "I have this terrible problem, I am sexually attracted to children. It is scarry and embarassing and oh my God so wrong. I have got to get help because I will NOT hurt anyone. Can you help me? Do you know someone who can help me? I so need help."

You can do this. You can do it today. If you hear ANY revulsion on the phone, hang up and try the next name. It is in your power to choose to fight. God help you do it. It is my prayer that you make this happen, that you allow it to happen. God knows why you have these unhealthy desires, you can fight against them instead of honoring them. Start today. Start now.

That is the best I can say to you.

10:38 AM, November 15, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

"If I WERE a likely child molester who masturbated while thinking of having sex with children"

There is a HUGE difference between masturbating to thoughts of children and actually having sex with children. You believe that someone who masturbates to those thoughts is likely to molest, but that's simply your opinion.

"I would call them up and say "I have this terrible problem, I am sexually attracted to children. It is scarry and embarassing and oh my God so wrong.

It's not scary or embarassing, nor is it worong. My parents know about this and they find the subject uncomfortable, but I don't.

"God help you do it. It is my prayer that you make this happen, that you allow it to happen. God knows why you have these unhealthy desires, you can fight against them instead of honoring them"

Please define "honoring them".
I'm not a religious person. You appear to have a religious dislike of "impure thoughts" though. When you refer to "fighting thoughts", you are reminding me of "therapies" used for homosexuals, which are now accepted as junk science.

4:46 PM, November 15, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Anon 10:38, etc, etc, etc,

Actually I think you need to read BlueRibbons posts and give him credit for a little bit of intellectual thought on the issue instead of being a reactionary. While he takes it a little further than I would, he does make a crucial distinction: ones ability to control ones self in the face of temptation.

If you found a woman attractive and were able to look at photos of her at gradually younger ages, you'd find a point where she was no longer attractive to you, sexually. But the truth is, if you didn't know what age she was in any of the photos, then your "threshold" of what's too young would differ from the next person's. There IS a definitive age of consent, maybe it's sixteen and maybe it's eighteen. Few would argue that it's either lower or higher than that range. But I defy you to consistently be able to tell the difference between a sixteen year-old and an fifteen year-old just from visual appearance.

The ability to exercise self-restraint here is the key. Blueribbon might find that fifteen year old quite attractive, but he knows damn well that she's off-limits, and I respect that.

That's what's really defficient in American society today: self-restraint. Far too many of us succomb to our foibles and accept no blame: it's the way we were born, right? We're sick, mentally ill, right? Not our fault! we say.

No. No, recognizing those illicit desires for what they are and THEN restraining ones self is the strength. No psychiatry needed, thank you very much.

5:26 PM, November 15, 2006  
Anonymous armchair anarchist said...

i remember once seeing a woman, dressed nicely, she looked early 20's. i thought hey she is good looking should i ask.. i didnt as it happens.

i later found out she was 15, if i had asked her i could have been arrested for child abuse, or grooming as its called now..

the problem is legal age and age via looks can be completely different, and sometimes the girls want an older man, and they dress to get the attention.

girls mature at different rates, if there is no form of coercion, then 15 year olds, or 14, should be able to decide..

why is it that it only matters if the man is older than the girl by a few more years, girls have sex with boys at their own age and thats right..

i matured fast physically, but mentally i matured slowly.

5:18 AM, November 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

http://www.csun.edu/~sr2022/soc456/pedophilia.htm

10:04 AM, November 16, 2006  
Blogger BLueRibbon said...

I've read a lot of material by Gene Abel. His studies frequently make people terrified of people who are attracted to children. I'll let you decide whether this is influenced by the fact that he sells software designed to "screen people for paedophilia".

7:37 PM, November 16, 2006  
Anonymous armchair activist said...

when this happens

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml;jsessionid=UCY2QRXSLGFRZQFIQMFCFFWAVCBQYIV0?xml=/health/2006/11/17/ftpageant17.xml

Make sure we position the money just right," the pageant director says from offstage. A moment later the display of notes across her winner's sash is in perfect alignment with Regan's smile. It is the kind of pose you'd expect of a Vegas showgirl, but this girl in a sequined dress and heavy make-up is only five years old.

and they wonder why there is so much hysteria

More than 3,000 beauty contests for children are held in America each year

4:54 AM, November 17, 2006  
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42.

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