Sunday, July 09, 2006

Women Behaving Badly on the Internet

Have you noticed how many women think they can use the internet to make threats against toddlers, flash their tits, and air their dirty laundry in public, all without repercussions? I have read that women are often afraid to comment on blogs because they do not want to stand up to criticism. However, it seems that there is also the opposite extreme: those women who think that they can say and do anything and no one is supposed to take notice or hold them accountable.

My guess is that these women feel so ineffectual that they do not believe anyone would take them seriously, kind of like when a woman slaps a man, it is seen as funny since she is so "powerless." On the other side, there is the possibility that these nutjobs have such a sense of entitlement (reinforced by society) that they can get away with saying and doing anything. Luckily, people are catching on to these nutcases and taking action-- for example, the professor who threatened Jeff Goldstein's toddler lost her job. (The whole sad story is here.)

Good for Goldstein for standing up for women's rights everywhere by holding this woman accountable and not letting her off the hook--maybe women will learn that their actions are not as ineffectual and powerless as they would have others believe. And for those who suffer from a sense of entitlement just because they are women? Maybe a dose of reality will help those women realize what men have always known--freedom and justice requires people to be responsible for their own actions, regardless of gender.

Update: I have nothing against boob flashers myself and frankly, think it's fine. What I object to and should have made more clear in my post is that the boob flasher in this case is Diane York Blaine, a professor, who is upset with conservatives, saying they are out to get her etc. as she dares to expose herself and her tits. However, the reality seems to be that she discriminates against men and is in the classroom preaching that all men are pigs and complicit in rape and when others call her on this--she then seems not to be able to deal with it and obviously thinks her "cute" antics with her boobs make her free. In other words, she thinks that because she is a woman, she can get away with this outrageous behavior. Imagine the reverse--a male professor says all women are sluts in class--than shows his penis on his website and thinks no one should hold him accountable. What do you think, could a male professor get away with this behavior? If so, have him email me so I can write up a case study.

88 Comments:

Blogger DRJ said...

Excellent post, Dr. Helen. Thank you for weighing in on this issue and especially the troubling story regarding Jeff Goldstein.

I especially agree with your last point. Freedom doesn't give us the right to threaten people or to be reckless and crass. Freedom means we are free to do the right thing.

1:04 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger AmericanWoman said...

While I agree that this woman is a nut case and deserves to be fired, or worse, why do you think it's only women who feel emboldened by the anonymity of the internet? I've been on many websites and chat sites where the attacks are frequent and from both sexes.

1:40 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Dr. Melissa said...

Americanwoman,
I agree with you. Some of the most outrageous behavior on the Internet is in on-line gaming and most often (not always) by men. Every once in a while a looper comes into the Yahoo Bridge rooms saying things he would never say in public without worrying about getting his butt kicked. The Internet "anonymity" emboldens many crazy and insecure people.

I, too, am impressed with Jeff Goldstein's equitable action. Just because Deb Frisch is a woman or "crazy" does not excuse this behavior or make her less dangerous. She should be treated in every way equal to a man, whatever the consequences might be.

2:13 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Sissy Willis said...

Jeff Goldstein rules, of course. I didn't think it had so much to do with women per se as with as leftists in general. The offending U of OK distaff psych prof absolutely adores faux Indian Ward Churchill, for example . . . as I have posted here, most colorfully, today:

"I take every loss as a new beginning"

2:16 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People finally realize that women can commit serious crimes and torts - great.

Now we have to work on baiting - groups of cowardly women and men committing crime after crime and tort after tort in an attempt to get a reaction from their victim so they can claim their victim is "criminal", "bad", "dangerous", "crazy" etc. It's cowardly. It's criminal. It's tortious. It's wrong. It disturbs the peace and quiet of a workplace or community. It's selfish and dangerous because they are committing numerous crimes and torts against someone in an attempt to get them so angry and frustrated that they do something that these cowards can use to smear them. And of course it's the "fault" of the baiters.

Dozens of crimes and torts committed to threaten, harass, menace, provoke, and ridicule someone make the harassers the "dangerous", "criminal", "crazy", etc. ones. And the guilty parties - they are the ones starting trouble and disturbing the peace.

3:25 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

the problem is, where do you draw the line, there some sites, where you just have to rant, get it out of your system, or you will kill someone.. i may rant about kids, i dont like them, my decision, my choice, but every so often, you need to have a place where you can get rid of the aggression, and by words it can help a hell of a lot.

i run a board and am a member of several childfree boards, and we get parents coming in, insulting us, for us daring not to like kids (there are teachers who dont want kid but have worked with them to nurses and doctors, we dont want kids thats it)

your right there is a safety zone of anonymity, no one to respond too, so they can say nasty things , then vanish.

the other month i said that most feminists, are rights and no responsibility, and most men are responsibility and no rights..

its very true.. and its not just women that have to vent, but i agree to the entitlement minded people thinking they are immune to replies or responses

3:27 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Mercurior,

It's wrong for people to come on your website and criticize your choice to be child free but, unless it's a rare occurrence, I disagree that it's a good idea to rant in order to "get rid of aggression". This is obviously just my opinion but I believe it is true: The more you rant, the more aggressive you may feel because it makes you focus on yourself and your grievances.

4:26 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Wow. Deb Frisch obviously has some serious problems, in judgement if nothing else. Scary that she managed to become a university professor.

Makes my think twice concerning mentioning my kids in my blog.

drj makes a good point concerning cathartic release. Years ago I read and article in "Psychology Today" that said, according to a study, using techniques such as hitting pillows actually made a person more likely to hit, not less.

From my experience with sports our play reflects our practice. Practice hitting in response to stress, frustration, whatever and you're more likely to hit in the "real" game.

5:17 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous SWLiP said...

I don't think that it's anonymity that drives such hateful rants so much as it is a failure of human empathy, perhaps in part brought on by the lack of face to face contact. Among many left-wing ranters, this is exacerbated by years of trying to outdo each other in demonizing anybody who doesn't agree with their extreme views. They have reached a stage where it considered to be perfectly normal, in "polite" conversation, to speak of centrists, conservatives, and libertarians as if they were the ultimate manifestation of evil on earth.

5:20 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Dadvocate,

Yes, some research does show that expressing anger outwardly against others makes people more likely to be aggressive, not less. The best way to handle anger has been to engage in anger-discuss, that is, to talk or engage with someone else in problem solving. Of course, discussions on the internet can get quite heated but threatening people's children goes beyond heated and is quite serious.

SWLIP,

I think the left says mean things because in the past, they have been able to get away with it in the universities, media, etc. where it was considered "normal" but now there is alternative media where their views are challenged and found to be lacking and as a result, their rage has escalated as their stranglehold on the media and the country is being broken. The lashing out is the anger that comes from a loss of power and ego.

5:30 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous ThomasD said...

I find it difficult to draw any far reaching conclusions from the singular example of Deb Frisch. She's pathological in every sense of the word. In the great wide web it's not too surprising that we all must enounter these select few on occasion.

What is more telling is the number of people willing to go to bat for her merely by a loose (hmm...) sense of political association. That is a truly disturbing trend that needs to be addressed. The enemy of my enemy is not always my friend. Apparently many people just do not get that.

5:39 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger jpe said...

I don't think that it's anonymity that drives such hateful rants so much as it is a failure of human empathy

Well, that and Goldstein is a serious douchebag.

As for the prof that kept up pictures of her topless: so what?

But, that you think Goldstein "stands up for women's rights" (he of "I'll slap you across the face with my cock" fame), then I think I know everything I need to about your take on women's rights (which presumably include, but aren't limited to, the "right to remain silent" and the "right to get back in the kitchen where you belong".

5:55 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Deb Frisch is insane.

On the other hand,...

"what men have always known--freedom and justice requires people to be responsible for their own actions, regardless of gender."

??

You are so blindly biased as to be nigh useless.

Not all men "have" known this or currently know this. Men are neither saints nor martyrs. Some men "know" this as do some women.

5:58 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

drj on some sites, its a weekly thing, sometimes you get days of constant harranging, then nothing for months.. yes threatening someones kids, ina personal way is bad. but there is a difference between, punching a pillow and arguing online, does it mean we cant discuss things at all heated or not, on the paper, or online or, anywhere.. discussion is the only really intelligent thing to do.. you learn to argue dispassionatly, but with emotion..

its like what you said *The best way to handle anger has been to engage in anger-discuss, that is, to talk or engage with someone else in problem solving*.. we argue discuss online with like minded people.. and we solve problems as well as get it out of our heads..

6:21 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger David said...

I wonder if people with uncontrollable hostility might be more common on university faculties than in other walks of life. Indeed, the combination of the captive audience of students and the perceived security of tenure may attract certain people to academic careers.

I once read a comment by a pre-civil-war plantation owner..he felt his life was better than that of a northern factory owner, because the factory owner had to be polite to various people in order to do business, whereas he (the plantation owner) need show courtesy to no man unless he really wanted to.

6:38 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

David,

I think perhaps the word is overlly-controlled hostility--that is, many times people restrain their hostility at places such as work etc. but because they have restrained their emotions so much, they release them by overreacting to things that are not that important--like a blog etc.

One of my collegues in a graduate program did a study of psychologists (the professor who threatened Jeff Goldstein was a psychology professor!) and found that those who go into PHD's in clinical psych often have feelings of helpless rage--usually over something that has happened in their past. It would be best if those academics and clinicians in psychology who have such feelings worked through them before working with students or patients who need someone with emotional stability.

6:58 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

She just doesn't get it. This is her latest defense:

"I made a joke on a blog about the death of a nasty rightwing blogger's toddler."

http://debfrisch.com/archives/2006/07/shaddup_and_go.html

7:03 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

I join you in enjoying internet discussions, especially here at Dr. Helen's place. I wish I could take credit for the excellent "anger-discuss" and problem-solving comment but that was by Dr. Helen.

DRJ

8:35 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger Michael van der Galien said...

Let me start by saying that Deb Frisch has - to put it midly - an anger management problem.

One commenter at her blog quoted a post from Mrs. Frisch from 2004 I believe in which she wrote (if I remember correctly): "the part of me that feeds on anger and hate" and "going to explode" (she was talking about American conservatives).

This woman, I'm sorry to say, has serious mental issues (although - of course I'm not a specialist, I'm a simple law student). She needs help.

BTW, Helen, first time at your blog but I must admit that I enjoy your writing.

9:00 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous GPE said...

Helen: "...many times people restrain their hostility at places such as work etc..."

Or they are riding hostility in search of a target such as happens after a diagnosis like cancer. Who do you blame/attack then? Don't know the lost professor's story (and don't much care to), but I'm certain there is one.

Helen: "...those who go into PHD's in clinical psych often have feelings of helpless rage--usually over something that has happened in their past."

Makes me think of a carpenter friend who chose his profession because he never had a decent house as a kid and a police officer friend who chose his career because of his abusive childhood that lacked the benefit of such authoritative intervention. Your colleagues' study suggest a similar pattern: at least some of us choose careers which fulfill or provide something we needed as children. We seek to become the professional resource we needed back then. Doesn't explain me, however. At least I don't recall any deep need for an awesome web site when I was 5 years old.

9:19 PM, July 09, 2006  
Blogger LoafingOaf said...

Jeff provided a link to her web site on his first post about "Dr." Frisch that blew me away.

In 2005 she wrote rather matter of factly:

I used to work in the psychology department at the University of Oregon. When the quacks (=ducks+psychologists) denied me tenure, the only way I could fight it was to allege discrimination on the basis of sex and/or sexual orientation. Although my main nemesis frequently made inappropriate comments regarding these two topics, at the time, I wasn't sure I’d been discriminated against.

The majority of people who are denied tenure either fight or leave. Although I didn’t want to fight, I also didn’t want to leave. So I finegeled a demotion. One of the quacks was famous and had a lot of clout with the administration. I told him that if he could arrange for me to continue teaching for a few years, I wouldn’t sue and embarrass his crony.

http://debfrisch.com/archives/000072.html

Uff dah! If she doesn't get what she wants from an employer, she'll just allege discrimination.

10:49 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous dicentra said...

But, that you think Goldstein "stands up for women's rights" (he of "I'll slap you across the face with my cock" fame), then I think I know everything I need to about your take on women's rights (which presumably include, but aren't limited to, the "right to remain silent" and the "right to get back in the kitchen where you belong".)

Do your homework, dude. Jeff is a stay-at-home dad while his wife works out of the home. And the "cock" talk? He was mocking the left side of the blogosphere for obsessing over Gannon's male member and where it might have been.

10:59 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous Claire said...

Have I noticed that women don't want to comment on blogs?

No, actually. Maybe I'm just not that observant. What I have noticed is that on the blog I read every day, (LGF) a huge proportion of posters is female, and I was surprised a bit by that initially. The competence and ferocity and eloquence of the females there is wonderful. Not a bubble-headed tentative barbie amongst them, which is very nice to see.

11:17 PM, July 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder if people with uncontrollable hostility might be more common on university faculties than in other walks of life.

No, it isn't limited to academia. I used to work at a leasing company with a lot of scumbags. When I stood up to one of the middle-aged women there, she threatened me with her mob connections. There were a number of other threats, harassment, sexual harassment, etc. as well.

Needless to say - those scumbags really "didn't get it". I take getting threatened with armed criminals just like getting threatened with a gun - as it should be taken.

1:47 AM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

I've never understood this "women are afraid to comment" stuff. It simply doesn't match up with the reality of my day to day life. Of the 16 blogs and 3 forums in my favorites, 9 are female authored and all have a large female poster population, even the "men's rights" forums.

I think Dr Helen is right to target women for this topic. Men threaten and harass, no doubt about it. Women who threaten and harass don't seem to get the same press (including blog) coverage, so doing a bit of catch-up coverage is a good idea.

Doesn't it seem that the internet is a more crude and rude place than face-to-face life? Is this due to being anonymous? These questions go through my mind.

3:59 AM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Montag said...

Umm, Dr. Hel, that's unadulterated claptrap. Goldstein has about as much interest in women's rights as he does in agricultural entomology in Cuba, the privations of indigenous Chilean potato farmers or the Bill of Rights in contemporary American life.

He's a putz. He got dished some the same tripe he's been dishing out to any and all for what seems like eons, and, suddenly, he's being treated like a) he's too pure and sensitive to defend himself on his own damned board, and b) he's a long-suffering evangelist for the rights of women.

The poster who made fun of him through his kid was wrong. That doesn't make Goldstein right, nor does it make him a defender of women's rights. His obsessions don't bend in that direction. And you know that.

Over and out.

7:34 AM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Richard Aubrey said...

I've gotten some crap from lefty women. They seemt to believe I am so traditional that I wouldn't do the same to a woman. That's a hell of a thing for a femnist to hide behind. Of course, were I to reply in kind, I would be proving that I am a belligerent, misogynist, oppressive patriarch.

Of course, those are their rules, and I haven't committed to be bound by them.

11:45 AM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous the antithesis of you said...

Where to start. On the one hand, according to Matchbox University graduate Dr. Helen, whether the creatures with ovaries are blatantly airing dirty laundry and threatening toddlers or too shy to post comments even while they flash their titties on the Internet, they're suspect and dangerous.

Ah, the intellect of Dr. Firstnames.

My guess is that these women feel so ineffectual that they do not believe anyone would take them seriously, kind of like when a woman slaps a man...

Is that why Jeff routinely threatens to slap men's faces with his dick and rape their wives? Oh, but he's just a kidder.

12:18 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Dr. Weevil said...

Antithesis:

Care to provide a link to where Jeff Goldstein has ever threatened to rape a commenter's wife? He's often crude, but saves his (often spectacularly crude) crudities for those who are crude to him, not their loved ones.

12:59 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Bob said...

Helen,
You nailed it in your reply to swlip!

1:03 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anon824 said...

I've observed for years that women, in general, don't expect to be held accountable for their actions . . . at least not nearly to the extent that men do.

It has nothing to do with the net.

1:30 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

What's remarkable (in my view) is not how people feel about things and thus act out - as though individual motivations were so neatly categorized. It's the general reaction to the bad acts, which may inform us to trends in said motivations. It mustn't be overbroadened, but there are times when a man can do something and people say, "he's an ass, a criminal or a cretin" where a woman doing the same thing gets a "she's empowered, what's your problem?" reaction. Exceptions abound, of course; I'm talking about generalities and preponderances. The reverse happens as well, though not any more in the traditional "why can guys get away with it" areas, which are mostly now inverted.

That'd be an interesting study.

1:33 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Didn't take me long to find an example of a guy falsely acting entitled. And I wasn't even looking! Funny stuff, man.

Or as Glenn says, "Heh."

2:11 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

the left might care to investigate Goldstein's 'Cock Slap Heard Around The Blogosphere'

For starters, the threat- as such - isn't that Goldstein will show up at your door unannounced and slap your face with his cock.

That would be rude.

The situation is reversed. If you question Jeff's masculinity from afar, Jeff offered to have you come to his house, at which point he will slap you in the face with his cock. Jeff hasn't declared how many people have taken him up on his offer.

The case cited involved Kevin from Catch.com touting the Chickenhawk argument at Goldstein and doing the whole 'questioning of the masculinity' schtick to Goldstein.

Goldstein's response was that were Kevin to show up at Goldstein's house (that's a distinction there) Goldstein would slap Kevin in the face with his (Goldstein's) cock which would demonstrate two things - 1) Jeff's superior masculinity and 2) that the Goldsteins keep their house warm.

And, as the previous commenter pointed out - Jeff's 'cock blogging' phase came about as a result of and in response to the Left's Gannon-Gay Cock Lies phase.

------------------------------

To go all Lefty for a second, the misuse of the 'cock slap' bit is akin to a rightwing blogger saying that Markos wanted to have sex with burnt mutilated corpses based on his infamous 'Screw them' comment.

I mean, after all, Markos said "Screw them' while referring to the contractors.

right?

of course not. Markos was just being a garden variety jackass with a blog, not a deeply disturbed sexual pervert, with a blog.

but somehow, Goldstein's cockslap comment has managed to become established fact in the reality-based community. Even though it isn't
----------------------------

3:34 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous cardeblu said...

IANAPhD, just a lowly medical transcriptionist who has transcribed several psychiatric/psychological assessments over the last 25 years. One part of the mental status exam is "insight and judgment." Considering this woman has a PhD in psychology and has worked in that capacity in academia, specifically (her own words, I believe) in "risk assessment," I would have say that her insight and judgment are poor, at best.

3:42 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Peregrine John

"Didn't take me long to find an example of a guy falsely acting entitled. And I wasn't even looking! Funny stuff, man."

Didn't take you long because you didn't find one. He states that women in Alaska expect men to buy them drinks and take them to dinner. He thinks things should be equal. Wherein is his entitlement? Because he doesn't think sex is a gal's gift to guys thing? Maybe he's good enough that he's the one giving best.

The blogger thinks that because there are more women than men the women are entitled. Wow. Exactly opposite of your observation. Other words, you missed.

4:01 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous ahem said...

Doctor Helen:

Great post, although you seem to have been visited by a couple of singularly juvenile and humorless commenters. If Jeff pissed them off, that tells me all I really need to know about them.

Having said that, I'd suggest that it's hard to draw broad generalizations about feminism, technology, or the progressive left from Frisch's behavior. Her demons are all her own. I suspect she has a personality disorder or mild schizophrenis, but you know more about that than I.

A day or two before the blowup, Frisch posted an item signing herself 'Deb the C**t', instead of her usual 'southwestpaw' and wrote something about being a 'rapidly-aging skank.' I viewed it as a red flag. Clearly, she lives with considerable self-loathing. And if you note the tone of her posts just before her outburst, you can see that they started out relatively lucidly and proceeded, over a period of hours, to become incoherent. They have an obsessive quality, almost as if she'd been drinking or was off her meds. At one point, I offered her a sincere warning not to compromise herself. I think Jeff realizes she's got a problem which is why he originally chose to let it go.

You might be able to draw inferences about the type of personality that takes shelter in university life, or the role blogs serve in reducing peoples' isolation, but that's about it.

This whole thing has turned into a circus, but the woman really needs some help.

4:03 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

5:14 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

oligonicella -
There I go again, providing accidental support for egalitarianism with yet another example, this one layered with the irony of a false reversal. Now, how did that happen? Totally accidental, I assure you.

5:22 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

cardeblu-

Of course "insight and judgment" are context based. If someone were being say, threatened, harassed, stalked, and menaced on a daily basis at several locations for months/years on end you might say they were under duress. (And of course you would say that the harassers' behavior was criminal and tortious.)

7:31 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Forgot to add "juvenile" to "criminal and tortious" above.

7:40 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger drumgurl said...

The threats were absolutely inappropriate, but I don't see what the big deal is about the boobs. I'm not a boob-flasher myself, but I don't think women who do flash should suffer any kind of repercussions. I mean, if we want boobie-flashers to suffer, why not just monitor everyone's PC to see who's looking at porn?

Because it would be un-American, that's why.

9:06 PM, July 10, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Redneck feminist:

I have nothing against boob-flashers myself and frankly, think it's fine. What I object to and should have made more clear in my post is that the boob flasher in this case is Diane York Blaine, a professor, who is upset with conservatives, saying they are out to get her etc. as she dares to expose herself and her tits. However, the reality seems to be that she discriminates against men and is in the classroom preaching that all men are pigs and complicit in rape and when others call her on this--she then seems not to be able to deal with it and obviously thinks her "cute" antics with her boobs make her free. In other words, she thinks that because she is a woman, she can get away with this outrageous behavior. Imagine the reverse--a male professor says all women are sluts in class--than shows his penis on his website and thinks no one should hold him accountable.

Here is more:

http://cardinalmartini.mu.nu/archives/175847.php

9:35 PM, July 10, 2006  
Anonymous Sarah Cynthia Sylvia Stout said...

I think Helen is right. It's one thing to make harmless jokes or flash your tits for your husband's personal wallet collection, but we're talking about something much more insidious. This woman probably isn't even married (or isn't married to a MAN!) and just flashes her tits for anyone! Her hatred for anything American is obvious as she shows off her unshaven, French, unclean and unholy body. Maybe if she could find a way to express herself without clearly violating the law and endangering the lives of innocent people, but my children were around when I clicked on that link and they could also easily find the copy I printed out!

I've already written a letter to the FCC on the same letterhead I used when Janet Jackson violated my children in a much worse way than that incident with their gym teacher. Won't someone think of the children? I mean, can't anyone think of a more important issue that faces us today? I can't and I applaud Dr. Helen for bringing it to our attention. As for the threats to Jeff Goldstein, it's just another way the liberal commies show their hatred for jews (except the Hollywood jews, they love them). Liberals constantly post other people's personal information on the web. Godly conservatives never engage in such disgusting behavior. And never anything that results in death threats, or at least none I've seen. Prove me wrong, I dare you!

Praise!

12:54 AM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger joeschmo1of3 said...

I think a lot of what occurs in the comments sections of blogs has to do with the inherent anonymity of the web, the lack of accountability for rude behavior in public (which a comments section is if you think about it), and the invasion of a community by an outsider looking for attention. Those who frequently post comments to certain blogs form communities of the like-minded (be they opinions, writing styles, or senses of humor). The troll is like the poor loser in grammar school who has to engage the community by eating chalk, provoking a response, and then "interact" with those who respond.

That the level of discourse goes rapidly down the toilet speaks to the power of anonymity on the web. That the web community can actually have an effect on rude behavior shows that "this internet thing" is really becoming part of our society. "Netiquette" is slowly melding with just plain old etiquette.

How's that for the social development of the information age?

1:29 AM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Behavior like Frisch's is par for the course for lefties in my opinion, as I learned in years of association with them through my work. Some of the apparent self-hatred was extremely sad and painful to witness.

I don't think the internet makes anyone more bold in bad behavior; we're just much more exposed to such people on the internet. Instead of her nutty violence being evident only in her university setting, Frisch (and others like her) expose it all to the entire world via the net.

And get back in return very unexpected responses, evidently! Good!

2:15 AM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Easily Startled said...

I'm a woman and I loathe this type of behavior in women. I've seen it in fellow members of women's business groups that I've belonged to. Woman A says or does something nasty to Woman B. B voices her objection to A's actions. A responds with a mealymouthed, "I don't know why you're so upset. All I meant was..." This type of scenario has played out several times in the past 3 years in different women's organizations, and is the biggest reason why I will never join a women's organization again.

The funny part is, the person who has pulled the Woman A crap is usually someone who's nursing a grudge over being the victim of sexism 30+ years ago, but now finds it OK to try to mistreat other women. Grow up already.

9:47 AM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger Rizzo said...

The interesting thing about all of this mess is how unsurprised I am by it. As someone who works in academia (in a research office, not as a professor), I find some college professors to be some of the most stunted, immature people I've ever met. We like to think of college professors as thoughtful intellectuals who calmly and dispassionately consider and discuss ideas (at least ideally). However, the amount of bickering, backstabbing, and infighting within departments often puts junior high school cafeterias to shame.

So, does it surprise me that university professors (or in these cases, adjunct lecturers, to be precise) would act like this? Sadly, no.

But I'm not sure this is a gender issue. I've seen some male professors do some ridiculous things as well. I often think that a majority (but certainly not all) college professors are people who refused to grow up and leave college.

11:45 AM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Mike Henderson said...

Helen,

The quote you cite having Blaine call all men pigs is waaaayyyy out of context. Here is the quote from your link:

"Second, keep a sense of humor. Don't treat each of their complaints as legitimate. They aren't. One guy said "This class is about how all men are pigs!" I smiled and said "that's right, and it's going to be on the final." Why justify his defensive jibberish? We are engaged in intellectually legimimate discourse and don't need to be defensive about it."

Clearly her response is in sarcasm. She intentionally does not respond to the student's question to not "justify his defensive jibberish." You really think her words were she believes all men are pigs?!?

Again, she thinks people who say feminism is all men bashing are simply defensive and not worth a response. That is not how you represent her.

Would you expect white history in an African American history class? How is that discriminatory? Don't we get enough male history throughout the rest of our education? Personally, I had never heard of Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Harriet Tubman before taking some classes that focus on the marginalized.

The irony here, is that Blaine refuses to dignify manipulated and distorted views of feminism, yet I just did. Dammit!!!

12:42 PM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Imagine the reverse--a male professor says all women are sluts in class--than shows his penis on his website and thinks no one should hold him accountable. What do you think, could a male professor get away with this behavior? If so, have him email me so I can write up a case study."


hmmm. does the male professor who bullies female students in his office to sit in his lap and accept his "hugs and kisses" count? because that happened to me and a few other females i know. right there at the university of tennessee. i'd be happy to give you his name, helen.

12:58 PM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 12:58:

No, the equivalent would be if his website had his penis on it (he is finally free to show his masculinity!) and telling the women in his class that if they are uncomfortable with him or his derogatory beliefs about women (they deserve to be raped etc.), that they should get over it. If you could send me his URL with this information, that would convince me.

1:20 PM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I have to agree with Rizzo that "some college professors to be some of the most stunted, immature people I've ever met."

mike h. - In reading Blaine's stuff she appears quite interested in inhibiting discussion. If a person has a distorted view, why not clear it up instead of respond with sarcasm? Or maybe the view is correct and an honest discussion would reveal it as so.

anon. 12:58 - you're experience reinforces Rizzo's observation, re: immaturity. I'm a grad of UT also (many years ago) and this has probably gone on forever.

1:52 PM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Mike Henderson said...

dadvocate (and Helen too I guess),

Your opinion of her is obviously not going to change through honest debate. That's fine. If you really need to believe she hates men and all liberals just want to threaten toddlers, I guess there's really no harm in it and I won't pull the same thing back on you, claiming you hate women because of your opinion of feminism. That would be equally absurd and I know better than that.

I don't know this professor, never heard her speak, I haven't noticed a rash of women trolling blogs, saying nasty things (unless Michelle Malkin counts) nor do I really think Blaine deserves the attention this is getting and how important Dr. Helen thinks this is.

It does however, impress upon me how valuable your misinterpretations to suit opinion are to you. It's interesting to watch. I'm sure I'm the same way about some things and I hope someday my daughter calls me on it and I'm open enough to hear her.

2:54 PM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

"All liberals"? I missed that somewhere up there. It's common practice to take someone at their word though, as may be done by following the links listed in this thread's article. Superlatives are dangerous when used inadvisably, as they tend to make their mis-user look foolish and overreactive. That's different, I think, than supposing that someone's statement is what they actually believe. If I hear someone call someone else a "stupid camel jockey", it's hardly a stretch to think they're prejudiced against mideastern people, and likely Arabs in particular. Someone saying, "Bitches, man, bitches" even in apparent humor will cause me to suspect the obvious about their view of women.

My own opinion of her is formed through her words and actions as shown in interviews and her sites. When she indicates some respect for men (as she naturally requires men have for women) I may revise my view of her as fearful misandrist. When she expresses regret for making violent hyperbole regarding children, I may raise my estimation of her mental state.

But probably not before.

3:14 PM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

mike h - You read much more than was written. In my last post I was refering to Blaine not Frisch which may not have been clear. In particular, I've never made a statement that I believe Blaine hates all men nor that all liberals threaten toddlers. I simpley pointed out that in her writings she seemed quite interested in limiting (inhibiting) discussion. Sarcasm does not facilitate discussion. Again, why does she refuese to explore feminism and men?

Interesting how you accuse me of misinterpretations when all your accusations are based on misinterpretations.

Of course, you're Michelle Malkin quip gives you away, as does your daughter reference. I try to remain open to my sons and daughters.

3:27 PM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Helen,

If we don't allow our women the freedom to take their tops off, then what separates us from the Taliban?

Here's an idea, we should be happy to be a society where a female professor or a female art teacher in a high school can pose topless. If we encourage this sort of behavior, the Taliban will pretty much give up on converting us and go back to their caves.

I followed your post to the internet and came across another story of a high school art teacher named Tamara Hoover who is being terminated because some topless artistic pictures of hers appeared on Flickr.

Would Picasso not be allowed to teach in this same school because he painted topless women?

Would a great female artist not be allowed to teach there because she posed for a painting topless?

How will that further the idea of America?

Sheesh.

8:20 PM, July 11, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Apparently, Deb Frisch also used the word "gook" repeatedly... that in itself should be enough to ensure that she not get a job in academia ever again:
http://althouse.blogspot.com/2006/07/nasty-blogging.html#115266228414317052

11:46 PM, July 11, 2006  
Blogger Kostas said...

"If we don't allow our women the freedom to take their tops off, then what separates us from the Taliban?
...How will that further the idea of America?"

Thnks but no thanks.
There's no need to "further the idea of America" any further than that. we are all since long fed up with that, believe me.

It is exactly this type of "logic" that is doing such a huge put off for AWs and WWs in mens' eyes, I reckon. Speaking for myself anyway.

Having been born and bred in Ukraine, I consider myself just lucky to have lived a major part of my life among simple and genuine women who usually put their family values above anything else. Most women in countries like Ukraine, Bulgaria, Greece know that respect in their communities doesn't come with the fact that one was born with a pair of boobs and a vagina, but it has to be EARNED through education, hard work, cultural self-development, coupled with a plethora of internal human qualities that in my country of birth are called "feminine" : intelligence, modesty, moderation, self-respect, honor...

Now living in Australia among so-called "liberated modern wymyn", I canot but wonder what makes local men so mad and desperate to be wanting even to date one of them, let alone stick their necks in a loope called "modern marriage"..
.. Scruffy, tattoed, half-exposing their boobs, tailoring their pants to expose ugly arse-cracks, with pierced tongues, eye-brows, noses, nipples, etc etc wearing ever dirty jeans and flip-flops wherever they go, arrogant, noisy, foul-mouthed and bad-mannered, one can feel like vomiting just looking at some of them. Who on Earth would want to take such a marriage material on board???

Men in the US and Aus need to wake up and take their blinkers off: there are millions of decent women outside the Western world who are longing for genuine relationships and will gladly return their partners' appreciation and love.

They DON'T NEED "to take their tops off to further the idea" of their countries. The ideas of their countries largerly represented by their women, don't need much advertising anyway, and men that go to countries like Ukraine, Japan, Malaysia etc know that all too well. With many of them just being unable to look at that self-neglecting yet self-bragging boobs-hanging rubbish once they get back home.

No ladies, please don't think "oh, that's the one that's not getting any."
My Japanese GF is a decent, modest and committed young lady. She's just blowing away all this local "self-liberated" flip-flopping mob..
I am on cloud 9 and words cannot begin to describe how happy we are...

5:28 AM, July 12, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

"Here's an idea, we should be happy to be a society where a female professor or a female art teacher in a high school can pose topless. "

Anonymous 8:20,

1) Frisch is not an art teacher and she wasn't trying to teach art. Her gesture was political and ideological. You appear not to have noticed this fairly crucial difference.

2) You appear also to have missed the point about equality. Women routinely show their breasts and thighs in public. They are never prosecuted for this, they don't have to register as sex offenders, unlike men who expose themselves. They can enter professional atheltes lockerrooms under protection of law and not be prosecuted as voyeurs. You do see how this is blatantly discriminatory. Don't you?

12:34 PM, July 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Do psychologists have to undergo any kind of psychological evaluation in order to practice or teach?

1:18 PM, July 12, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 1:18:

That's an interesting question. If one is a health service provider in clincial, school or counseling psychology (PHD), we go through a program where we are supervised and monitored in externships and internships. We also do a full year internship before or after our disseratation. Some programs require or suggest the student be in therapy but do not require it. After the PHD, we do a one-year supervised post doc experience prior to our license (at least in most states but not all and that is changing). After taking a written exam, we have orals to make sure we can answer ethical and legal questions etc. However, if one is in a field of psychology--cognitive, experimental etc. they do not go through an internship nor do they go through the requirements that health service providers do to get licensed. I have never heard of psychological evaluations being given in order to teach. I wonder, if given, how many psychologists would be allowed to teach or practice?

2:10 PM, July 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks for answering, Dr. Helen. That's a little scary, isn't it?

Considering some of the college professors we've seen recently, perhaps that (i.e. psychological evaluation) should be part of the process to teach regardless of discipline. These individuals have a great deal of power and influence over young people, yet virtually no oversight that I can see.


I worked some years ago in the registrar's office of a seminary for a large denomination. This particular school had started requiring some sort of personality tests and evaluations before awarding degrees in several of their departments. It was very controversial when introduced, but the school's position was that their diplomas could be viewed as the school's endorsement of the individual's fitness to pastor or counsel.

3:49 PM, July 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To: jim (12:34)
From: anonymous 8:20

Do you see me mentioning Frisch anywhere? I was addressing the issue of Diane York Blaine.

6:21 PM, July 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

To Anonymous 8:20,


Kostas:
Another problem with this "liberated topless wymyn"'s issue seems to be an apparent contradiction between the never-ending feminist mantra about "wymyn being objectified" and turned into sex-objects by the nasty patriarchy every time a naked female body appears in Playboy or on a video screen. The late psychopath Andrea Dworkin & her sexually-deprived brigade (Cath McKinnon etc) saw no difference between eroticism (let alone porn) and "violence against women".
(Personnaly, I found both pictures just repulsive, yet only from my aesthetic viewpoint. Ugly tits, really)..

On the other hand, as the posting above clearly says "we should be happy to be a society where a female professor or a female art teacher in a high school can pose topless".
Now, this is obviously meant to be taken as a pearl of wisdom said by a truly liberated person (liberated from the same nasty patriarchy that's been oppressing women all along into posing topless).

In light of these two concepts, can anyone please shed a bit of light on what "liberated women" really want?
And whether they'll ever be happy with something that can be described in NON self-contradictory terms?

Kostas

12:04 AM, July 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

I think your comparison of a woman professor flashing her boobs and a male flashing his penis is a bit unbalanced. There really is no male counterpart to boob flashing.

A more balanced comparison is a female professor spreading her genitals for the camera and a male professor flashing his penis.

I have no reason to think either could get away with that.

3:17 PM, July 14, 2006  
Blogger Wickedpinto said...

I have nothing against boob-flashers myself and frankly, think it's fine.

DAMN YOU GLENN!!
DAMN YOU!

the best of everything he has, the just plain BEST!

DAMN YOU!! AAAAAaaarrrrggh

10:47 PM, July 15, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think your arguement does not concise or definite point. I am completely lost on what point you are trying to make. Are women not supposed to stand up for themselves? And how can you compare a woman who expresses herself with pictures to another woman who is threatening a child? Do you believe that the interent should be regulated by others? Is not the internet free for people to express their opinions? You are expressing your views, and are given this right because of free expression. Is there someone telling you your opinions are wrong? I think what you are reallying being is hypocritical of the situation at large. People have a right to post their opinions, photos etc. There is a point when this boundary is crossed, but who are you to draw that line?

10:42 PM, July 16, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

Penis is not equivalent to boobs. A website with a penis does not equate to a website with boobs.

A website with a penis would be equivelent to a website with spread labia.

Is it your position that a male professor's website with his penis would not be tolerated while a female professor's website with her spread labia would be tolerated?

9:44 AM, July 17, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Personally, I'd easily tolerate a website with pictures of female professors.

4:25 PM, July 17, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

oops, I meant pictures of female professors with labias spread.

4:25 PM, July 17, 2006  
Anonymous Kostas said...

To anonymous 9.44

You seem to be ignorant (or just ignoring for the sake of pushing your argument) traditional cultural forms / norms of erotic representations of a human body throughout history, starting from Ancient Greece and Egypt.
In fact, Alexandros of Antioch, Michaelangelo, Cellini, Donatello, Ingres etc, etc had no problems with portraying fully exposed human bodies, female with brests and nude torso, and male with penises, for that matter. (Check out David by Dontello, if still in doubt. Ever heard of Donatello?).

Also, female brests are external (as well as a penis), easy to see and culturally inseparable from female sexuality.

In this regard, Helen's comparison is correct.

1:27 AM, July 18, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kostas,

You are correct that I am ignoring "traditional cultural forms / norms of erotic representations of a human body throughout history."

I am dealing with current cultural norms in the USA. And under those norms a male professor's penis on his website is not equivalent to a female professor's boobs on her website.

10:35 AM, July 18, 2006  
Anonymous Z said...

You would have no way of knowing this, but Dr. Blaine doesn't discriminate against men or anyone in her class. Nor does she call them "pigs." I've been in her classes, and as a man, never felt threatened. Nor do I feel a lack of rights by living in a society where I can't flash my cock on a website without some kind of consequence. That seems to be the right you are defending - the right of men to do offensive things. It certainly isn't your concern on this blog to stand up for freedom of expression.

It is not as if our society grants women more rights than men - quite the opposite, in fact. Your issue seems to be that some people - some women - assert themselves in this regard. You would only approve of a "boob flasher" if her politics were condoned by you. What kind of moral relativism permission system is that?

While I'm not sure how the toddler-threatener and Dr. Blaine relate at all, I am sure that the freedoms they choose for themselves make you feel uncomfortable about the constraints you choose for yourself. Otherwise, why would you object?

1:47 PM, July 20, 2006  
Blogger Salamandyr said...

As for myself, I think entirely too much soup has been made of the controversy over Deb Frisch's comments. I agree that her remarks were beyond the realm of civilized discourse, or even the rough-house arena of the internet. I don't think she was really interested in harming someone's child, but I think it's more likely she lacks that internal censor that tells us "hey, you've gone too far". But I don't blame Goldstein one bit for not giving her the benefit of the doubt. Here's hoping she finally gets the therapy she needs. But I don't think she's any kind of symblic representation of "what's wrong with the" Left, Women or any other group we might criticize. She's a nut, pure and simple, and her behavior reflects badly on no one but her.

As for posing topless, I'm generally approving, or at least ambivalent, and my only comment would be to say that bared teats are equivalent to a male display of a flaccid penis, while the spread labia is more in line with a turgid member (don't you love that word-turgid?)

Oh, and Z, exactly what rights do men have that women don't?

6:37 PM, July 21, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mark said: " But I don't think she's any kind of symblic representation of "what's wrong with the" Left, Women or any other group we might criticize. She's a nut, pure and simple, and her behavior reflects badly on no one but her."

oh my god. the voice of reason. that sort of behavior will absolutely not be tolerated around here.

1:31 PM, July 22, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kostas:

In reference to your first post, you got it absolutely right! I followed the same line of thought and concluded with the same course of action when I met my wife. She's Asian but grew up in Aus, also blew off the prevailing local and global "self-liberated" claptrap and stuck to those very "old-world" values you mentioned. To these values, also include pragmatism and sound counsel.

If anything good is yielded by this prevaling flavour of dogmatic feminism is that it separates the women from the girls, and then further separates the women of substance out of this putrid mess that operates under the guise of being modern.

Kudos to those who can discern and best wishes to both you and GF.

12:12 PM, October 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

best regards, nice info » »

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11:27 PM, June 07, 2009  

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