Tuesday, May 30, 2006

Is There Too Much Violence in the Culture or Not Enough?

Reader Patrick sent me this article from CNN describing a new pasttime for men--fight clubs. Apparently, men from the computer tech industries are proving their manhood by beating on each other in organized fight clubs:

Inspired by the 1999 film "Fight Club," starring Brad Pitt and Ed Norton, underground bare-knuckle brawling clubs have sprung up across the country as a way for desk jockeys and disgruntled youths to vent their frustrations and prove themselves.


The article obtains these brilliant nuggets from a couple of sociologists (one from a gender studies department, of course):

Men involved in fight clubs often carry bottled-up violent impulses learned in childhood from video games, cartoons and movies, said Michael Messner, a University of Southern California sociology and gender studies professor.

"Boys have these warrior fantasies picked up from popular culture, and schools sort of force that out of them," he said. In these fantasies, "The good guys always resort to violence, and they always get the glory and the women."

There is also a sadomasochistic thread running through underground fight clubs, said Michael Kimmel, a sociology professor at Stony Brook University in New York.

"Real-life fight clubs are the male version of the girls who cut themselves," he said. "All day long these guys think they're the captains of the universe, technical wizards. They're brilliant but empty.

"They want to feel differently. They want to get hit, they want to feel something real."


My interpretation is a little different. Violence is the new sex. Sex used to be forbidden and people went underground to do it--now sex is advocated everywhere--even college campuses hand out free condoms. But now the forbidden fruit in our society is violence and it has gone underground. These men never "learned" violence from video games, cartoons and movies as suggested by one of the sociology professors.

The aggression was innate to begin with but it was never channeled, and instead was stomped out of them in the culture as something wicked, immoral and "male." Perhaps these fight clubs are the new male ritual, like in the olden days when boys went through rituals to become men. The schools and culture have attempted to squash whatever maleness is left in today's men and all they are left with (besides football which is now banned at my daughter's elementary school) are a few underground clubs to artificially practice their manhood. Wouldn't it be better for our culture to accept and teach boys how to sublimate and deal with violence when they are younger so they do not have to grow up to be men so desperate to prove themselves that a broken rib and a thrashing at an "underground" fight club is the only way to prove their manhood?

58 Comments:

Blogger David said...

The professor's assertions are typical of a common form of rhetoric: making the claim that some (undesirable) form of behavior is caused by some aspect of *our* culture. Rarely is there either a comparison with other cultures existing now, or any form of long-run historical perspective.

And regarding professor #2, I suspect that what "technical wizards" do is at least as "real" as what sociology professors do.

8:49 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have two thoughts on this:

1) As an IT/systems desk jockey myself, I've been finding myself shying away from things virtual in any time I spend outside work. It has to be real. In my case, I make metal wall and garden art. I guess my risk isn't getting hit, but getting burnt by molten metal. And I've become an ice hockey fan. If I were younger, and had I not fallen off that ladder and crushed a vertibrae or two, I might be a player (though decidedly NOT NHL material).

2) It's interesting that the psychology community seems to want to excoriate men for engaging in such behavior (note the deprecating tone of the academic quotations), yet there is encouragement for women who want to engage in boxing. Just more pussification of the American man, I suppose.

Frank H

9:07 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So they have a fight club. Who cares?

9:51 AM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Typically in initiative rituals the boys are welcomed to the world of men through suffering. So getting beat on works, but I doubt that there are initiated men of power running the show. I fear that lunatics run this asylum.

The suffering in typical initiations is to show the boys that they are tough like men, that they can endure physical and emotional pain for the good of their people. My idea of a fight club is that it is recreational brawling, kind of like a mosh pit. Anybody know more about fight clubs? Or is this another "rainbow party" urban myth?

Trey

10:03 AM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Grim said...

I think the question shouldn't be, "Isn't there enough violence?" but rather, "Is there any sort of violence that is beneficial, rather than harmful; and if so, how do we channel violent energies in that direction?"

The answer to the first question, plainly, is yes: we need policemen and soldiers. We need people who will not pass by in fear if they encounter a robber or a rapist going at an innocent victim. We need people who won't let themselves be backed down by the wicked.

How, then, to encourage only the right type of violence?

It must be done by establishing a channel for violence that society will respect. We can say, "If you fight, fight this way and you will be honored; fight that way, and you will be prosecuted." This is the exact reason for every ritual combat that ever existed, from the Code Duello to the Marquis of Queensbury rules. You mention rituals of manhood, but one of those rituals was the saber-fencing clubs of Germany, themselves only a holdover from the duels of Europe and early America (not always to the death, as you may know, but often to 'first blood' or a number of touches).

Fight clubs are bad only because they are secretive and illegal. They don't teach the right lesson. Society should accept such things openly, and say: "Yes, if you fight fair and honestly, according to the rules, it is proper. Carry on -- but take care you do not cross this line, for beyond that it is criminal."

We can therefore develop men who aren't afraid to do the kind of violence necessary for the defense of society and civilization; while continuing to punish cowardly, wicked, or cruel violence.

So, in answer to your question: We have too much of the bad kind of violence. We have not nearly enough of the good kind.

10:04 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe this is more about competition than violence. In a fight there's usually a clear winner. One of the things I've noticed about society today is that there's an avoidance of activities that result in a clear winner, and by extension, a clear loser. Men, especially, want to be recognised as winners. Work, today, often recognizes "team" accomplishments; not the same thing. Plus, as anyone who's taken a good punch to the face knows, it takes guts to willingly get into a fistfight. Even losers in a fight can gain recognition for guts. As an added "plus", many young men can benefit from the humility brought about by having the crap kicked out of you in a fair fight. I certainly did.

Mike Doughty

10:24 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This sounds like something I might be interested in... it's a way to test and prove yourself, to learn what you can do, to find out whether what I've studied and learned actually works. To prove that I'm not a pushover like I was back in high school (2 years younger than classmates due to grade skipping).
If I learned of something like this locally I would at least go check it out, although security concerns might keep me from participating (depending on my read of location, people, etc).

10:30 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Rich said...

"...gender studies professor"

I don't need to read any further. Anything that comes out this guys mouth is bound to be bullshit.

10:48 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen,

What's wrong with an underground fight club? Why do you recommend they sublimate instead of having a good fight? WE need less PC, not more.

11:13 AM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Jeff said...

This is horseshit. Japanese boy's culture is ultraviolent- yet Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the civilized world.

Violence is innate, not learned behavior. What is learned is methods of practicing violence, and methods of restraining violence. Boys will turn a Barbie doll into a gun and a stick into a sword because it's the most fun thing they can think of to do with those objects. Boys will hit each other- hard - to show brotherly love.

If you watch old westerns you'll notice that the hero usually refrains from fighting until pushed to protect himself or some young woman. There is often a scene of temptation in the first act, when the audience wants the hero to bust the bad guy in the chops but he instead turns the other cheek, waiting for the appropriately serious moment to ac. This is a lesson as old as the Odyssey: there is a time for restraint as well as for violence.

These are all things that mark men as different from women despite the current trend of pathologizing healthy male behavior.

11:14 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know of a group of guys in my town that have a fight club of sorts.Never been there myself, but a friend is a regular, and I hear him talking about it all the time. However they dont seem to be the kind of guys who join the local karate clubs, or the local university to local bxing clubs. Thes guys are more the metrosexual, usually the artsy-fartsy types, many who call themselves 'artists. writers, or poets". And it isnt pure fighting either like in a boxing ring or a full-contact karate tournament ring. These guys get drunk or high on ecstasy, or mushrooms and god known what else, and then they go to dirty basements and pummel each other. I am glad that none o f t hese guys are macho, strong guys who know how to fight - becasue otehrwise, people would be getting hurt, possibly hurt seriously.

My friend also tells me that this kind of fighting is also very popular among t he tattoed, pierced punk community, and among the GLBT community.

11:20 AM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What about female violence? Mothers abuse children far more than fathers do. Yet it is more taboo to even discuss this womanly outlet of violence. The woman's fight club is the family. Brutal circumcision rituals carried out in hospitals never target the female -- only the male -- and perpetrated mostly by mothers. Sadomasicism is not the warrior fantasy, but rather the toxic myth of female compassion.

11:50 AM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Grim,

Good points. I would like to add that it used to be, fathers taught their sons how to use violence appropriately and how to have boundaries--that is, how do you both have aggressive feelings but learn to control them and use them in settings where they are beneficial. Boys used to learn this through rough and tumble play with their dads.However, many children now grow up fatherless or with a dad who has been taught to refrain from such play. Too bad, because boys are left to figure out for themselves how to channel aggressive feelings. The schools and society just tell them not to have the feelings or that bad things will happen if you do. For example, draw a picture of a gun etc. and you may be suspended. This can be dangerous as the child may not learn how to use violence in a constructive way, but rather learns that it is best to hide your feelings from hypocritical types.

Anonymous 11:50:

Many women and girls have aggressive feelings. I have worked with a number of them. The problem is, as you suggest, that it is taboo to act as if women are capable of violence, unless it is for self-defense. In truth, women have aggressive and violent feelings that, if dealt with in an open way, might be channeled appropriately. However, girls are told it is okay to be aggressive (you go girl mentality etc.) yet, are never taught how to use violent feelings constructively. Instead, they are covert, undercover and can end in harming those around them who are the closest to them and the most fragile, such as chidren.

12:04 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous MacKenzie said...

jeff said :If you watch old westerns you'll notice that the hero usually refrains from fighting until pushed to protect himself or some young woman. There is often a scene of temptation in the first act, when the audience wants the hero to bust the bad guy in the chops but he instead turns the other cheek, waiting for the appropriately serious moment to ac. This is a lesson as old as the Odyssey: there is a time for restraint as well as for violence.

This is the truth.

"The Virginian" - The very first western novel of all has a early scene where the villain cajoles the hero in an attempt to get him to fight.

The only response to these insults is the famed reply, "Smile when you say that."

12:35 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

God,
Are there any cranks crankier than the goddamn anti-circumcision nuts? No matter what evil you're discussing, it hearkens back to, or pales in comparison to the millions of blah blah blah every day...

12:42 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Great post grim. Thought provoking, thanks.

Trey

12:43 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

These fight clubs sound like substitutes for military service, except they aren't very good substitutes.

1:12 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Some common sense is called for. You'd have to be plenty cranky to make exceptions for women. If they have the strength to drown children in the bathtub, then they can be held accountable for venting frustrations on children. The men's fight clubs at least have the virtue of encouraging a fair fight. That's something we've forgotten in this millenium of asymmetric warfare and court-ordered family destruction.

1:59 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Jeff said...

Hmm, unanesthetized genital mutilation sounds like as good a reason for violence as anything else!

2:35 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Dragons Tooth said...

fighting, is a way of finding out who is the alpha males in society, since we cant fail at something, we have to find ways of testing ourselves and working out our place in the society we live in, for boys its fights, when i was young i fought i won my fair few fights, lost some too, but i knew where i was in the school yard. but at the moment boys are being taught to be weak in a sociological setting, so they have to find an outlet. and these fight clubs are a solution. not the best, since all the men only gyms, have been abolished,

3:27 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Teresa said...

Grim - great comment! You have made a number of excellent points.

Anonymous 11:20am - interesting information on the type of people who frequent these clubs. I think that makes a tremendous difference in how we look at what these people are doing.

What I wonder is - why are these clubs illegal? After all, if these morons want to go indiscriminately beating each other to a pulp and they all are in agreement that this is okay... AND they are not coercing anyone to do it who does not want to - how is this illegal?

After 7 years of tae kwon do, I must say, there is something wonderfully cathartic in beating the tar out of a heavy bag or having a few fighting bouts with an opponent. I think they're nuts for fighting unpadded - after all, is it really worth being badly injured? No - not at all. However, controlled hand-to-hand is not only not a problem, but would probably get rid of quite a lot of pent up rage.

3:33 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Teresa,

I don't think the clubs for grown men are illegal according to the article or given much police supervision unless someone is brought to the hospital.

I also took tae kwon do for about 3 years and loved sparring. It was interesting because many of the women who were white belts were afraid to hit you. There was one man (in charge of some of the classes) in my class who loved to show how strong he was (I thought he was quite sadistic). He broke two of my fingers at different times and at that point, I decided I needed my hands to do my job--writing etc. so I quit. But it was great training--especially in the art of self control.

3:59 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger ronin1516 said...

Dr Helen - unfortunately, there are a few martial arts instructors who are sadists like the one who injured you. I used to have a Shotokan Sensei, who thought he was some kind of Samurai living in 15th Century Japan!!! We had calsses that went 4 hours long, until the gym managers would come and kick us out at closing time!!!! And then he woudl want to continue in the parking lot!!! Thankfully, he got married, and has mellowed out. Especially after a year-long trip tp japan, where they showed him what real martial arts and what hard-core training really is!! :):)

4:18 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

ronin1516,

The head of my Tae Kwan do studio was the most wonderful gentle man you could ever meet. He was a terrific teacher and very experienced--it was just one of the guys that he had running the class at times that was the problem.

One day, this sadistic guy popped me in the head (we were not supposed to hit above the neck or below the knees) and when I objected, he said, "well, tell that to the mugger who you meet on the street). I often felt like hiding behind a door and when he came in one day, popping him with a two by four and when he recovered, saying sweetly, "well, you really should look behind every door before entering the building." A funny fantasy, but not one I would actually carry out. I later heard this guy became a police officer and I really hope he has calmed down as I would fear for anyone who had to deal with him.

4:35 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Grim said...

...popping him with a two by four and when he recovered, saying sweetly, "well, you really should look behind every door before entering the building."

That piece of advice, Doctor, is the very first verse of the Havamal, a Viking age poem in which Odin issues advice on how men should live.

Funny how it all ties together, isn't it? Fight clubs yield speculation on ritual combat and its role in initiation; experience in ritual combat (like the martial arts) yields thoughts that point directly to the ancient initiatory/revelatory texts. It's no accident, I would submit.

5:44 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm sorry; I'm confused. What's the difference between "the schools and culture have attempted to squash whatever maleness is left in today's men..." and your suggestion that we "teach boys how to sublimate and deal with violence when they are younger"?

5:49 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Serket said...

Frank H said: "2) It's interesting that the psychology community seems to want to excoriate men for engaging in such behavior (note the deprecating tone of the academic quotations)

Both were professors of Sociology.

5:53 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Sean said...

well, if underground fight clubs are bad, i wonder how they would deal with us

Society for Creative Anachronism


not only do we hit each other with sticks, we have elaborate rituals, dress funny, and address each other using pseudonyms. oh yeah, we also are the largest standing private army.

6:07 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Serket:

True enough, the two quoted in the article are professors of sociology. But my statement stands: the psychology community excoriates men for their violent tendencies. And they are largely silent or supportive with respect to encouraging women to box.

8:06 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

helen,

You said, "Wouldn't it be better for our culture to accept and teach boys how to sublimate and deal with violence when they are younger so they do not have to grow up to be men so desperate to prove themselves that a broken rib and a thrashing at an "underground" fight club is the only way to prove their manhood?"

Why do you think that is the only way they can prove their manhood? What problem do you have with them choosing to fight? Teaching boys to sublimate is exactly what the PC crowd is doing.

8:33 PM, May 30, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Helen:

In Thus Spake Zarathustra, the author brought the hero to a river where he said, "Not because the water is filthy doth the discerning one decline to enter but because it is shallow."

He could have been talking about most of the shoddiness that tumbles authoritatively from the mouths of our secular priests: Psychologists. Soon enough (one hopes!) no one will bother to pay attention to most of their inanities when the annointed don't even try (because they can't) to back up their oracles with science.

But ... thanks for exposing yet more drivel to the glare it still needs in order for it to release its grip on our imagination and fade to the historical curio box with phrenology and the reading of pidgeon entrails.

Jim

9:13 PM, May 30, 2006  
Blogger Jeff said...

The difference between sublimating the urge to violence and squashing it is this:

"Squashing" is repression and denial which leaves men untrained and ripe for uncontrolled outbursts of violence during moments of stress.

"Sublimation" is a form of controled awareness that instills confidence and a sense of responsibility. Control of one's temper, a sense of sportsmanship, and a sense of responsibility for one's actions are part of the old-fashioned ways boys were trained to become men. The results were things like, pride, humilty, and chivalry. Confidence in one's strength makes fights less likely, not more, because there is less to prove and less to be thin-skinned about.

All of which is much too chauvanistic and patriarchal!

12:57 AM, May 31, 2006  
Blogger Jeff said...

I would add a PS- girls don't get much of the aforementioned training outside of athletics, and even then I'm not sure. I do know that I've seen as many fights in public between women as between men.

I've also noticed (in offices!) that some women will push disagreements or arguments with men to unhealthy extremes. Raised voices, violations of personal space, thowing things, insults- I've seen it alll. Most of which would result in violence if it were coming from one man towards another. But in these cases the women relied on men's respect for rules that they themselves either ignored or were ignorant of.

(Chris Rock adressed this behavior incouples on one of his HBO specials.)

1:06 AM, May 31, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i have seen this happen, a few years ago, 2 men were fighting, over a woman probably, and one won, but the victor put his hand out to the loser and helped him stand up. i think thats the difference. men can fight and yet still be sort of friends towards the other person, a sort of bonding with other men.

4:22 AM, May 31, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

Hmph ... A gender studies prof has about as much grasp on reality as road kill does on communication.

I have no problem with consenting adults engaging in low level violence, boxing, fighting, etc.. My concern about these clubs is that there be a trainer and a referee both of whom have some real experience in those duties.

4:38 AM, May 31, 2006  
Anonymous Thor said...

At my kids' nursery school, the old game "Rock -Paper-Scissors" is banned, because it too dangerous or violent. Really! It has been replaced by an analogous game, "Fence-Fire-Water", which is lame. Sigh...

6:23 AM, May 31, 2006  
Anonymous dogriverdan said...

It has been replaced by an analogous game, "Fence-Fire-Water", which is lame.

Fire obviously burns the fence, and water puts out a fire, but how does a fence stop water? Not just lame, but bad science. Shame on them.

I've also noticed (in offices!) that some women will push disagreements or arguments with men to unhealthy extremes. Raised voices, violations of personal space, thowing things, insults- I've seen it alll. Most of which would result in violence if it were coming from one man towards another. But in these cases the women relied on men's respect for rules that they themselves either ignored or were ignorant of.

I've had this problem repeatedly - my girlfriend's ex-roommates, co-workers, a female driver who hit my car, you name it. My solution? Air horn. Get one from a sports or novelty store (favourite team logo optional), and when the fur starts to fly, uncork a blast or two in their face. Any time they open their mouths to continue the tirade, hold the trigger. When they stop, let up. You'd be surprised how well this works for getting them to shut the hell up long enough for you to deliver the "when you're prepared to behave like a civilized adult, we can talk" speech.

9:49 AM, May 31, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

dogriverdan,

That sounds great; who did you get that from - Cesar Milan? 1)On the spot correction 2) that doesn't allow an opening for dispute. It would work with anyone, amaybe even a classroom of unruly kids, or worse yet, a meeting room full of teachers.

4:32 PM, May 31, 2006  
Anonymous Jay said...

Hey, really now. Aren't we not supposed to be talking about this?

That's the first rule.

Jeez

5:10 PM, May 31, 2006  
Anonymous Richard Aubrey said...

I believe a good many el ed teachers will say that recess which includes lots of large-muscle thumping and running results in a quieter classroom.

Problem is, those teachers are getting ready to retire and the newbies are against such barbarism and want to drug the boys. Healthier.

8:16 AM, June 01, 2006  
Blogger geekWithA.45 said...

My interpretation of this was that the mores of neoliberal society have chosen to suppress and deny the existence of the "inner warrior". Consequently, the inner warrior will express itself in perverse, unbalanced and non productive ways such as this.

A whole, healthy and integrated personality is well acquainted with its inner warrior, as one of many components, is able to discern its proper place and role, and cherishes it for the value it brings to the table.

I also find it _fascinating_ that the article, which deals with expressions of violence, failed to consult anyone who might credibly be an expert in both the application of violence, and the relationship of that factor to the rest of the person. For example, a reputable martial arts instructors who include a spiritual dimension to their training would have something constructive to contribute. Another resource overlooked is our own military, who just might know a thing or two about the topic.

10:12 AM, June 01, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Geekwitha.45,

Yes, I am always amazed at the "experts" chosen to give responses in these articles--usually some ivy league school educated type who despises violence in all forms and has an agenda to promote. There are, however, some very good forensic psychologists who deal with, and study violence, such as J. Reid Meloy who writes and researches the topic.

10:18 AM, June 01, 2006  
Blogger Matt Edens said...

"I hear him talking about it all the time."

Interesting. And what is the first rule of Fight Club?

10:43 PM, June 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A bunch of the guys I've grown up with started their own fight club some four or five years ago. They fought without gear and to the blood. I didn't participate but I've seen some of the pictures. I think you're right in pointing out the dichotomy between sex and violence -- Every political puppet of the past ten years has been decrying how our culture is so permissive of violence but so intolerant towards sex. Strange, then, how porn stars have become mainstream celebrities, whereas their rough equivalents -- Boxers, martial artists, wrestlers, are all subculture phenomenon. It seems our "high" culture is willing to acknowledge prostitution as acceptable but only acknowledges violence in culture to cast it in a disparaging light.

2:47 AM, June 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sometimes I think we look too hard for deep seated emotions. The truth is that a 5 minute fist fight is about the most exhausting and exhilirating thing that you can do. Maybe they just do it for the rush, cheaper than skydiving. They do it in a "fight club" because its safer than fighting outside bars.

1:02 PM, June 06, 2006  
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