The Duke Case Continues
According to the second Duke stripper, if you are rich enough to hire an attorney, it's okay to be charged with rape--even if you might be innocent. If these young men turn out not to be guilty of this crime, saying you're sorry is not enough. If found innocent, perhaps the charges should be reversed and the accuser should be charged with the rape of these guys' reputations.
Update: Newsweek has more on the Duke case. What I find troubling is a statement from a student at the college that the accuser attends:
Wow, Chan Hall, your form of vigilante justice is really admirable--if the Duke students are prosecuted "whether it happened or not," when can we expect you to get your just deserts? Perhaps it will only be a matter of time.
Update II: La Shawn Barber has more on the Duke case--make sure you check out the must-read comment on her site linking to the problems NCCU has had with assaults and crime.
Update: Newsweek has more on the Duke case. What I find troubling is a statement from a student at the college that the accuser attends:
Across town, at NCCU, the mostly black college where the alleged victim is enrolled, students seemed bitterly resigned to the players' beating the rap. "This is a race issue," said Candice Shaw, 20. "People at Duke have a lot of money on their side." Chan Hall, 22, said, "It's the same old story. Duke up, Central down." Hall said he wanted to see the Duke students prosecuted "whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past." (On a bulletin board in the student lounge was a long list of students with grades high enough to qualify for the Golden Key International Honour Society. On the list was the name of the alleged rape victim.)
Wow, Chan Hall, your form of vigilante justice is really admirable--if the Duke students are prosecuted "whether it happened or not," when can we expect you to get your just deserts? Perhaps it will only be a matter of time.
Update II: La Shawn Barber has more on the Duke case--make sure you check out the must-read comment on her site linking to the problems NCCU has had with assaults and crime.
posted by Helen at 4:54 PM
60 Comments:
but apparently jesse jackson via his rainbow foundation is paying for the strippers tuition.
so even if false allegation she wins.. so allegation = money
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,191902,00.html
DURHAM, N.C. — The Rev. Jesse Jackson said Saturday his Rainbow/PUSH Coalition would pay the college tuition of a black woman who alleges white members of the Duke University lacrosse team raped her.
No one has been charged in the case, but the allegations have rocked the community. Jackson he has yet to speak with the woman, but said his group pledged to pay for her tuition even if her story proves false.
The woman should be able to support her two children and pay her tuition without having "to sacrifice her body to make money."
http://www.newsobserver.com/1005/story/429004.html
The Rev. Jesse Jackson announced Saturday that he and his organization want to pay for the accuser in the Duke University rape allegations to finish school.
Speaking from the headquarters of The Rainbow PUSH Coalition in Chicago, Jackson said in a telephone interview Saturday that he had learned through various conversations that the woman, a 27-year-old student at N.C. Central University, has aspirations to go to graduate or law school.
The woman was working as an escort the night of March 13, when she was hired to dance at a party hosted by members of the Duke men’s lacrosse team at 610 N. Buchanan Blvd.
Jackson said he wants to pay for the woman to finish school, “so she will never again, in an act of desperation, have to expose her body.”
“She should never again have to stoop that low to survive,” he said.
Jackson’s statements Saturday were the first he has made in response to the allegations of rape. He said he was waiting until the woman is “strong enough” to meet with him for prayer, and so he can formally offer her a scholarship.
A verdict of not guilty means simply that the prosecution did not prove its case; it is not a judicial determination of innocence. It is for this reason (and distinction) that prosecuting witnesses are rarely tried for perjury when the defendant walks.
the scottish courts have a verdict of not proven as well..but no matter who wins this her or them, the men will lose, but are they not guilty(unproven) or are they innocent. even if they are innocent they are still being held as being guilty.
what if they didnt do it at all. people would still say they got off the crime because of X or Y.
there is no innocent anymore. just they got off.
And then there's the news report of the line-up: 40+ photos, one of each member of the lacrosse team. No photos of outsiders. She pointed to two of them and said, "They did it" (or words to that effect). She could have been blindfolded and put her fingers down anywhere, and she'd have nailed two members of the Duke lacrosse team. Even if the charges don't hold up in court (as they certainly should not), as others have said, the true guilt or innocence of these guys will not be known. Oh, well--the gal's tuition will be paid. She'd better get straight A's.
That prosecutor ought to be run right out of office.
helen,
The opinion of the second Duke stripper tells us what?
helen,
Why are you not looking at the medical evidence that a rape did occur?
Everyone seems to be so casual about the word rape without really comprehending how PAINFUL it is to a womans body.
This is what I find so offensive. That a woman was vaginally, anally, and orally raped with bruises to her body, and throat --- pictures taken showing this-- and yet some people still question if she was really raped!!!
Yes she was raped--that is a medical fact-- the question is WHO RAPED HER??
As a woman I would hope that you have more compassion for women and do not fall into the tired category of repeating the same old mantra of "Men are innocent until proven guilty and women are guilty until proven innocent."
Anonymous 10:58:
No, the tired old mantra for the past 30 years is that men are guilty and women innocent.
But the point of my post is that there are people who want these young men punished whether they committed the rape or not--just to "get back" at injustices that happened in the past. All of us as concerned citizens should be upset by this attitude (which is prevalent) because if we can just charge people with crimes because we do not like how they think, are the wrong demographic, etc., then who is to say who is next--perhaps, the next backlash will be against women or minorities after a certain length of time once the retribution against the dominant majority is "paid back." My question is "where does it stop?" Of course, we should find out if this woman was raped or not--but to ignore the "pay back" aspect of this crime is to ignore a possible travesty. The post is more than about this particular crime, it is about a societal attitude that says payback for all the perceived injustices against women and minorites, or whoever in the past trumps true justice.
With a thesis statement like "future Masters of the Universe ... sometimes behave like thugs" why should anyone think "What Happened at Duke?" is objective reporting? Sure these young men were behaving in an inappropriate and boorish manner. But "thugs"? Give me a break. And a pretense of objectivity--which is what we get to various degrees in the article that follows--isn't going to win Susannah Meadows any kudos from me. She never shows any real balance, because she never addresses the possibility that the dancer could have been angry at the boys for behavior far short of rape (behavior which we know happened from multiple witnesses) and might be making these allegations as a form of revenge. You make a great point about the end of the article where she writes, "Hall said he wanted to see the Duke students prosecuted `whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past.'" Why doesn't Meadows challenge this as a fundamentally outrageous position to take? Should we all start taking out our frustrations on the innocent, just because there are those who have been guilty in the past? Whatever happened to civil society and the rule of law--and journalists who cared about such principles? This is why the press has developed such a bad reputation for biased reporting.
To her credit, it seems that Ms. Roberts has been candid w/ regards to the significant facts - not to say that her intepretation isn't biased. She stated that she won't testify to witnessing or knowing of a rape.
and acknowledges a financial interest ..
"Why shouldn't I profit from it?" she asked. "I didn't ask to be in this position ... I would like to feed my daughter."
_________________________
To my understanding, the medical evidence was 'consistent' with a sexual assault, not proof of a rape. While it's appropriate for police and counselors to treat rape claims sympathetically, this standard is entirely inappropriate to the determination of guilt.
Who dropped the alledged victim off at the party location?
Helen --
are you sure you are a woman??
For a woman to state that the old mantra is "men are guilty and women are innocent" makes me wonder.
However I choose to believe that you are a woman and have the same philosophy as Coach Bobby Knight who stated a few years back --- that when a woman is raped she ought to just sit back and ENJOY IT!!
Don't kid yourself sweetheart, the real point to this story is not payback for all the injustices done to one group of people-- it is the continued message that rape is usually the womans fault-
For you to defend these "men" is appalling and disgusting. I just hope you don't have a daughter that just happens to be naive enough to believe that having a drink with a man over at his house alone is suppose to be just that--instead she gets drugged, he has his perverted way with her, and then you have to read some woman blogger going on about how your daughter obviously deserved what she got b/c she should have never gone to his home in the 1st place.
WHY CAN'T THE ABOVE PERSON ACTUALLY MAKE INTELLIGENT COMMENTS ON THE FACTS OF THE CASE INSTEAD OF MAKING FEMINISTIC COMMENTS. THAT KIND OF THOUGHT IS THE KIND THAT WILL RUIN THESE YOUNG MENS' LIVES.
Anonymous 3:04 --
It's this kind of thing that gives feminism a bad name. Why should anyone listen to anything feminists say when comments like yours make clear that it's motivated by hatred, stereotyping, and a desire to see others suffer? This is everything feminists were once supposed to be against. I remember when feminists were for fairness. Not anymore.
anonymous 3.04.
first of all they arent in court, they are INNOCENT until PROVEN GUILTY.
rape is bad, but there is no evidence, all there is, is circumstancial evidence, NO dna results, there is pictures of her having the injuries prior to the alleged rape.
there are women who LIE, about abuse. or are you saying all women tell the truth all the time.
you are putting the same tired feminist words out again, just try to imagine they are innocent, shock horror, men innocent of rape. my god the end of the world. of course no doubt you will say they have gotten off from prison, they did the crime no matter what, it was good lawyers that got them free not the innocence
There's proof that this victim had a date rape drug in her system. - Gee, could she possibly have gotten that from one of these "innocent boys" when she accepted a drink?!? Ms. Roberts states that she was acting strangely & had "glassy eyes" before the "alleged" attack. How much of a stretch is it from point A to point B? Grow up you people. We all know something happened against that victim's will, but we also all know the money = freedom, not justice, but FREEDOM!
Helen, what bothers me about the posts you've made on this subject is that I have not detected even a tiny bit of speculation that maybe, just maybe the accuser is telling the truth.
The rape exam showed injuries "consistent" with a rape. This does not mean that a rape definitely occurred. It is very possible that sex toys used during a "show" could cause injuries consistent with a rape. Or maybe someone not at the party caused the injuries.
What proof is there that she had been drugged with a date rape drug? Anaother thing, that house they had the party in is very old and small. I am sure the Bathroom is small. How in the world did three big old Lacrosse players and a woman fit in there?
I did not know that I was a feminist--thanks for making that known to me.
I happen to be a white southern woman who has 3 small children and I am pregnant with #4. I am a homemaker and raise my 2 young sons to respect women and I am raising my daughter to value herself and know that she is a creation of Yahweh to be treasured and honored ( oh my goodness now she is a fundementalist to boot).
I am a woman who is tired of seeing every major news story about wealthy athletes, celebrities, ect.. get away with rape because of the lawyering up that they can afford to buy. I also am sick of this mentality by people like you who feel the need to take up for the Kobe's, William Kennedy Smiths, and many others who all walked due to their ability to pay the spin machine and label their accusers as sluts who are only in it for the money.
As far as DNA is concerned--the D.A. said that 75-80% of all women raped are found to either not have the DNA of the assailant or it cannot be retrieved-- so just b/c there is no DNA does not mean squat.
The medical records can not be argued against. The records show through court documents that have been released and news organizations have printed--- that she had vaginal and anal tears, that there was strangulation bruising to her throat, and bruises and trauma to her body. The D.A. in the newsweek article said that blood and urine tests will proboly show a date rape drug was in her system and that facial swelling does not take place usually for a couple of hours and this is why the 2nd dancer did not see obvious trauma at first.
The woman went immediately to the hospital after the police found her-- she did not wait--she was examined by trained nurses and medical staff dealing with rape and they all came to the same conclusion that she was brutally assualted-- the question is by whom?
My comments are not motivated by hatred they are motivated by righteous anger. Anger at what America has become, anger that my young children have to grow up in country that saturates the airwaves and internet with sickening pornogragphy that devalues women and treats them as pieces of meat. Anger that pornographey and strip clubs have broken up thousands of homes, created a generation with sexual dysfunction, and has been the greatest reason why so many people from different age and gender groups have been raped and molested. This is the real story that most don't want to talk about. America has become ugly and the culture at Duke has shown a huge spotlight to the nation of what alot of youth look, act and talk like.
Don't get me wrong--women who strip and make movies are just as guilty as the men who are hypocrits to pay and watch it and then label all the women sluts who do it. Both have no morals and will have to stand before God one day and give an account to their actions.
Believe it or not but I also do know that their are innocent men who are accused of rape who have not done it and I feel for them. But lets get real-- the numbers far outweigh that most women don't report what has happened b/c they run up against people like you-- who will NEVER believe them and then have the audacity to still call themselves a friend of women. Please spare me.
she could have got that drug if there was one, before the visit to the dukes place..
the so called evidence is this
"Nifong, a white man who is running for election in a racially mixed county, hinted to NEWSWEEK that blood and urine tests of the woman would reveal the presence of a date-rape drug"
the things dr h mentions just show that where justice is supposed to be blind, she isnt any more, its corrupted.
ah, so its ok for 1 innocent man to be in prison so long as how many men are guilty, or being punished. so an innocent man, who has never raped anyone, they somehow need to be punished for other peoples crimes.
its the false rape allegations that make men more dismissive, of real rape victims. i have spoken to rape victims, friends, and i feel sorry for them. but there are others who cry RAPE when no rape occured.. and you wonder why men are more violent. we are being labelled rapists. by women like you anonymous 4.17,
so these duke men they are guilty are they. all 47. oh not the black man. because of.. they are men. thats basically what your saying
What's wrong with spending a lot of money on a legal defense? The prosecution spends lots of money on police, investigators, lab techs, and attorneys. Who thinks the defendent should be limited in spending while the prosecution is not?
(William Kennedy Snith was found not guilty by a jury, not by the spin machine.)
From the article, she didn't immediately go to a hospital, she was held in a 'substance abuse center' - I don't think that she was coherent enough to press charges at first.
Also, the date rape drug was initially mentioned hypothetically by an anonymous source in the PD. Then the DA claimed that he has evidence. There hasn't been proof of the use of a date rape drug.
Anon 4;17 - looks like you are angry about rich athletes beating the system. yes, sometimes they do. OJ Simpson , I think got off with murdering 2 people, becasue he had money, and becasue the mostly black jury bought into the race baiting, and were just dumber than s***!!!!
So, what do you propose? That all folks who might be wealthy, or have access to good defense lawyers be convicted, just becasue you dont like the fact that the rich in this country, usually can manipulate the system in their favor.
Or do you want the Duke LAX players convicted, just becasue a drunk, stripper, who happens to be black say so? You are asking for us to return to the days of Jim Crow, where in those dark days in the South, black folks were lynched, and werent allowed the chance to disprove their "guilt".
The accusor's stage name is Crystal Gail Magnum. Her real name is Janette Rivers.
If the accused have their names published so should the accusor be named.
Sigh....
Rape is wrong.
Lying is wrong.
Manipulation is wrong.
Whoever is doing any, or worse yet, ALL of those things IS WRONG! In due time, they will be punished.
It is just sickening how human beings can do so much crap. So now it is official...Animals ARE smarter now! It is truly stupid to see so many people defy the 10 commandments! The bible may be re-written 10,000 times by folks who want to "be creative", but those 10 rules...there is a reason that they're there. FOLLOW THEM!
And quit the judging and backbiting. That's just as wrong.
Discrimination is no longer a social ill, it is a business plain and simple. Gee, I - a white female- worked my way through college as a waitress and a bookkeeper. Will Jessee Jackson refund my tuition costs to me??
Candice Shaw,22 from NCCU said the 2 arrested Duke students should be put on trial even if no crime occurred. Now that is a racist comment.
1:36 I wonder who dropped her off too and why was she late?
The old mantra I always heard was "why would a woman lie about rape?" Well, we know there are lots of reasons (revenge, child custody, property settlements, etc.) women would lie about lots of things, as will men.
Of course, Chan Hall's reasoning is the same reasoning O.J.'s jury acquited him. I don't believe for a second they bought the defense's arguments. The arguments just provided a handy excuse to acquit O.J. I wonder at what point people like Chan Hall will think enough pay back has been paid. Never would be my guess.
annymous 7;13,
Those ten rules are woefully inadequate. They tell us three things regarding behavior towards others. 1) don't kill, 2) don't steal, 3) don't perjure.
That's all. Nobody needed a bible to figure that out. Many societies figured out those three thousands of years before they even heard of the bible. Now, is that all society needs?
Every where I am reading that the players will beat the rap because they are white and privileged. Then I read the criminal reports on the two dancers, the accuser stole a vehicle and was involved in a high speed pursuit in which she traveled down the wrong side of the highway, rammed a police cruiser, and blew a 0.19.For this she received 3 week ends in jail and probation. The second dancer embezzled 25k from her employer and the best I can tell she only received probation? Sounds like they have also been the recipients of some special treatment. Let the courts prove if they are guilty or innocent and drop all this they are going to get off stuff just because!
I think the strippers are just angry because they weren't paid the full amount they were supposed to be paid. I guess they thought they were entitled to full time pay for part time work. So, they got mad and they are going to make the rich white boys pay. There are other ways to earn a living besides taking your clothes off. They sure didn't mind taking the rich white boys money! That was good enough. And now Jesse Jackson is coming to this gal's defense. There are a lot of single mothers in this country who take care of their children without stripping. That is not setting a good example for your children. Being at home with your children instead of being in some stranger's home drunk and naked and dancing around a bunch of young drunk men is not a good idea. Sorry, but that was not the smartest thing to do! When you get down to it, I think this is all about money and it just snowballed.
Obviously some commenters are unaware of the procedure for performing a "rape kit." For one thing, it states in the manual that NOTHING SHOULD GO INTO A REPORT OF THE EXAM THAT CONTRADICTS A WOMAN'S ASSERTION THAT SHE HAS BEEN RAPED.
You need to understand that a rape kit is NOT A NEURTRAL SOURCE, IT IS DESIGNED TO BE AN ADVOCATE FOR A VICTIM OR ALLEGED VICTIM. A "rape kit", the SANE (Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner), the doctor, and the report NEVER EVER EVER contradict the woman. Period.
If the woman has swelling from forced sex, the report will say "swelling or injuries consistent with verbal description" and if the woman has swelling from CONSENSUAL SEX the report will still state "swelling or injuries consistent with verbal description" (of rape) EVEN IF IT TURNS OUT SHE WAS MAKING A FALSE ALLEGATION.
All defense attorneys know this, but the general public who relies on "Law & Order SVU" for their legal education does not.
Crystal Gail Mangum apparently didn't know it either - which is why she was so surprised when the whopper of a lie she told just to save herself from a night in the drunk tank blew up and exploded so many people's lives.
The Prosecutor is actually carefully leading the Duke Lacrosse players safely out of the charges while publicly claiming to believe the witness and playing to the voters, but make no mistake he is steering these Lacrosse players to a safe "not guilty" verdict if there is a trial after the election. Why no "hate crime" status? Why do the unthinkable and perform an obviously tainted photo lineup that will never pass judicial review? Why did it take this case nearly two weeks to even see the light of day?
This is a carefully constructed cover-up being performed by the very individuals that are cleverly publicly portraying themselves as this young woman's champion. Poor girl, she never had a chance. The money aligned against her is staggering as is the deceit.
Also, why did it take weeks to get a search warrant? The puzzeling time lag across the boards screams of cover-up. They went through all the scenarios and covered all the bases and then they carefully allowed this to come out... and they've also carefully sprinkled in plenty of gaffes like the photo line-up of all lacrosse players which conveniently assures them of having any ID of the rapists tossed. The fact that this was not immediately classified as a "hate crime" despite clear knowledge of racist slurs being used further indicates a desire to keep the Feds away. At every turn they've inexplicably taken their time only to produce embarrassing mistakes and they have sprinkled a trail that even a blind lawyer could follow to an aquittal. This girl is being runover by the system and those with the power and money to run it. She doesn't have a friend anywhere right now.
Still, there are some things to hang your hat on. The DA took the DNA samples, but none match. The accuser (I refuse to use the word victim until the trial is over and we know who the REAL victim is) was the one that described the timeline. She was the one that identified her two "assailants." Now it turns out that one of them has a well-documented alibi. And finally, she was found unconscious in a car in the parking lot of a supermarket less two hours (as I recall) later, after which she made a rape complaint. Assuming she was raped, it's entirely possible that it happened while she was unconscious and highly probable that no one from the LAX team had anything to do with it.
It's clear from all of this that the DA is incompetent and nothing more than a political hack, and if he gets re-elected, then it's nothing more than a demonstration of the weakness of the local electorate.
Frank H
There is no cover up and I highly doubt there was a rape. I think that what did happen is that two girls got pissed off for not getting all of the money they thought they had coming, so they are making the rich white boys pay. And why does every argument between a black and white have to turn into a racist fiasco? People are human and sometimes they lose their tempers. Tempers flare when people are angry. People say things when they are angry...and drunk. I have heard black people call OTHER black people worse! You never seem to hear about those slurs!! The strippers are looking for an out of court settlement now. Suddenly, we'll hear how it's going to be to difficult to relive that 'terrible night' blah, blah, blah. The attorneys will negotiate an out of court settlment, and the rich white parents will pay because it will be cheaper to settle than keep paying extremely expensive billable hours for an attorney. Then, someone will write a book and then there will be a movie...blah, blah, blah!! Remember the Kobe Bryant story...different actors, same story.
I am a rape victim and the sister of a man who was falsely accused of rape. I know my brother didn't do it because we and 3 other people were eating together in a restaurant on the other side of town when the alleged crime occurred. (Leaving our upbringing out of the equation totally because obviously, I'm biased in his favor.) Luckily my brother is memorable and the entire waitstaff plus a few other patrons as well as our party remembered his being there with us and we paid by credit card and kept the time stamped receipt.
I chose not to press charges against the person who raped me because I knew no one would be able to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, and quite frankly, I didn't want to live it over and over again and get nothing from it. It was an adult decision and I'm cool with that.
Anyway, my own life has taught me that you can never be sure of the truth unless you were there to see it and nothing in the criminal justice system is a slam dunk and from what I've seen and heard this case is a legal mess that I'm glad I'm not in. I hope the truth wins out in this case - whatever it really is. That's about the only thing I ever hope for in rape cases anymore.
'"whether it happened or not. It would be justice for things that happened in the past." '
What's really sad is somehow this poor person thinks this is a good thing. Maybe it will give him some sense of retribution for whatever reason but it's pretty pathetic if that's what this guy is dwelling on.
Bandit,
It is more than sad, it is scary to think that there are many people who feel this way (it is not uncommon, even if people do not make such a bold statement, they secretly feel this way) and are so full of vengeance that they would send innocent people to jail as payback so they can feel vindicated for wrongs from the past. What if this guy were sitting on a jury?
Helen, people like that were sitting on OJ's jury, but in reverse. They felt that so many whites had gotten off for their crimes against blacks, it was time to pay the piper.
Anonymous 3:00:
Yes, juries are often filled with people working out their psychological dramas or sense of injustices on others. I read somewhere, but cannot find the reference, that white juries often are more lenient with black defendants due to "white guilt." I just ordered a book with the same title, "White Guilt" that I will review at some point on my blog.
even if they are guilty, or innocent.. HOW can they have a fair trial. everyone is prejudging them now. trial by media, is now the norm rather that trial by ones peers
Anonymous said...
I did not know that I was a feminist--thanks for making that known to me.
I happen to be a white southern woman who has 3 small children and I am pregnant with #4. I am a homemaker and raise my 2 young sons to respect women and I am raising my daughter to value herself and know that she is a creation of Yahweh to be treasured and honored ( oh my goodness now she is a fundementalist to boot).
But, apparently you aren't raising your daughter to respect men or your sons to value themselves, only women.
Yup, you're a feminist allright.
Helen said...
It's this kind of thing that gives feminism a bad name. Why should anyone listen to anything feminists say when comments like yours make clear that it's motivated by hatred, stereotyping, and a desire to see others suffer? This is everything feminists were once supposed to be against. I remember when feminists were for fairness.
Please quote a few feminists who were advocating for fairness, and indicate when they said it. Feminism has always been predicated on the assumption that women were the victims of men, and that "fairness" would entail gains for women at the expense of men. I would be interested in feminist writings which broke this mold and actually admitted areas in which women were advantaged and men needed more "fairness" to "catch up."
Anonymous said...
There's proof that this victim had a date rape drug in her system.
There is?!?! Please provide a citation or link.
"That's all. Nobody needed a bible to figure that out. Many societies figured out those three thousands of years before they even heard of the bible. Now, is that all society needs?"
Name one, please. A qualifying society must have prized these values and predate the Hebrew exodus from Egypt. Name just one. Please.
Isn't making threatening comments against people because of their race hate speech? Are the students who made the racist statements being reprimanded by the college for hate speech?
Trey (holding his breath)
Trey,
Do you mean Chan Hall who made the comment about putting people in jail as payback for whites or the Duke team for supposedly making racist comments against the stripper at the party?
". I remember when feminists were for fairness.
Please quote a few feminists who were advocating for fairness, and indicate when they said it. "
Zed, read Camille Paglia, all of her, from about 1980 on. She goes off on the victimhood feminists, who are in reality just female chauvinist pigs rather than actual feminists.
"But, apparently you aren't raising your daughter to respect men or your sons to value themselves, only women.
Yup, you're a feminist allright. "
Not a feminst, just a plain old bigot. She's the kind of person who thinks the man is always the aggressor, the woman always the victim - you see this reasoniong in the people who excuse feamle teachers having sex with their male students, whoexcuse women who make false calims of DV or rape - the actual facts never matter because the larger "truth" for these people is that men are always stronger and women are always weaker.
In fact for these people, and they are in the majority, this inequality is the essence of what it is to be female and male, and when it starts to drift towards equality, some corrective action is necessary. That may be feigned helplessness, insistence on maintaining a pre-adult body shape, falsely high-pitched voice mannerisms or a structure of law that priveleges women as a couterweight to presumed male dominance. Anonymous is showing us the underlying assumption.
That's one reason that picture of those Israeli women was so uplifting.
Jim said...
". I remember when feminists were for fairness.
Please quote a few feminists who were advocating for fairness, and indicate when they said it. "
Zed, read Camille Paglia, all of her, from about 1980 on. She goes off on the victimhood feminists, who are in reality just female chauvinist pigs rather than actual feminists.
Camile Paglia no more defines "feminism" than John McCain defines the Republican party. I've read a lot of her work and own a couple of her books and I do think she has more sense than 99.999% of the American public, but the exception does not define the majority. So what is an "actual feminist"? Besides Paglia, Hoff-Sommers, and arguably Wendy McElroy, who else who claims the label of "feminist" has said anything other than women are victims of men?
I have a copy of "The Feminine Mystique" which I read in 1967. The cover contains this liner note - "Today women are waking up to the fact that they have been sold into virtual slavery, by a lie invented and marketed by men". I am sure than a far greater number of people would come up with the name "Betty Friedan" when asked to name a famous feminist than would name Paglia. Or, how about the writings of Kate Millet in the late 1960s, culminating in "Sexual Politics" in 1969, which set the foundation for the application of Marxist class theory in which all women were lumped into a class "without power" (even women like Maggie Thatcher) while all men were lumped into a class of people "with power", including coal miners, day laborers, and the thousands of men who came back from Vietnam missing parts of their bodies and most of their souls. And, let us not overlook Germaine Greer of "The Female Eunuch" fame, (eunuch not being a word which conjures up connotations of nice things having happened to a person) or Gloria Steinem, one of the other hard-core Marxists who defined "feminist" theory. Or, read some of the work of Erin Pizzey regarding her experiences with feminists in the UK carrying around their copies of Chairman Mao's little red book.
I have always thought it was a perfect illustration of PT Barnum's dictum about a sucker being born every minute that a movement supposedly for "equality" had a gendered name - the literal truth of its intent being obvious from the fact that it was called FEMININE-ism, not "equalitism" or anything which illustrated a principle. Inherent in the name is the belief and assumption that women were the victims of men, and that "fairness" demanded that women be given special rights and treatment at the expense of men. Some have tried to breath one last breath of life into this fallacious and moribund ideal by distinguishing "good" feminism (ie "equity" feminism) from "bad feminism" (ie "gender" feminism). The word "feminism" itself is a twisting of a word used exclusively to denote gender, so all feminism is based on gender - or in other words, all feminism is "gender feminism."
There is no difference between the beliefs of hard-core chivalrists and those of hard-core feminine-ists - women are weak, stupid, and require all sorts of paternalistic protections in order to protect them from all those evil men they have to share the world with. The term which more and more men are using to describe the core mentality, whether it comes from left or right is "women-firsters." The term "womenists" would probably serve as well. To paraphrase one of the many victim-connotated sayings about feminism, is that it is "the radical notion that women, (UNLIKE MEN) are human beings."
Not a feminst, just a plain old bigot. She's the kind of person who thinks the man is always the aggressor, the woman always the victim - you see this reasoniong in the people who excuse feamle teachers having sex with their male students, whoexcuse women who make false calims of DV or rape - the actual facts never matter because the larger "truth" for these people is that men are always stronger and women are always weaker.
That's what feminsm is - that is what it was in 1963 when Friedan launched this "2nd wave", it is what it was in 1969-1970, when Millet, Greer, and others were extending the theory, it is what it was when Robin Morgan as president of NOW declared that "Man--hating is a viable and honorable activity" and when Marilyn French declared that "All men are rapists, and that is all they are", and it has never in reality been anything else.
And, interestingly, despite all these hoards of "true feminists", when asked to name one, about the only names anyone can come up with out of the thousands of feminist authors and "Wimmins's Studdees" perfessers, are Paglia, Hoff-Sommers, McElroy, and maybe one or two others.
A movement is not defined by its dissidents and renegades, but by the people who articulate its core theories and energies.
Zed,
You are right, really - Paglia herself would agree with you in the main. She was hounded out of jobs and denied others because she didn't fall in with the dominant line.
You are also quite right in pointing out how retrograde the feamle chauvinist pig "feminists" are. They have exactly the same worldview as old-line male chauvinist pigs. This is a big problem for example when men try for joint custody or even full custody - they still have a male chauvinist expectation that kids belong with their mothers, and start out and then stay defeated.
You are also right to point out that 2nd Wave feminism uses a Marxist model. I remember gagging when I read some article in which "angry young women" in some private school back east were talking about "speaking bitterness" - as if those pampered darlings had any right to use the same terminology as exploited Chinese peasants.
But it's an ill wind that blows no good. Younger women are taking this basic attitude of questioning social norms, from the "women's movement", and applying it to the current situation, and surprise, surprise, often end up being better advocates for fathers' and other men's rights than the men. And I think we can agree that the women's movement did right some pretty awful inequalities. However it is described, it is a huge advance to get women into the military serving as part of being citizens, whatever the rationale.
Anonymous 12:03,
Many societies were ignorant of the bible well after the supposed exodus from Egypt. The bible crept across the world very slowly. So, many societies figured out it was best to avoid killing, stealing, and perjury with no help at all from the Ten Commandments.
For example, the Japanese and Chinese figured out society worked best when people didn't kill, steal, or perjure. So did many Native American tribes. It's not relly hard.
You're joking... right? ROTFL!!!
anonymous 7:53:
You're joking... right? ROTFL!!!
Somebody certainly is.
Yeah, I bet that Jesse Jackson just wants to "pray" with this young woman. Just like the other one that he got pregnant and used Rainbow Push coalition funds to pay her salary and housing. SHAMEFUL!
The accuser is just another example of dirtbag lowlives trying to get something for nothing, and who cares if they destroy a couple of "whiteys" in the process. Given her race, I am surprised she just didn't decide to rob them at gunpoint.
Her ass should be thrown in prison, and I hope the families of the Duke Lacrosse players sue her for every penney she doesn't have. Also, I think she should be kicked out of her school, for being proven a decietful liar.
We have prisons for a reason - people like her!
Im black and from the moment i heard this i thought another dirty whore making women look bad llokin g for mo ney. Im ashamed to be of same race and sex though i do not live in same type of neighborhood. MAy she rot in jail or some std her permiscousity will lead to.
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