Monday, December 19, 2005

Dangerous Class Assignments

If you think that boys don't suffer from abuse at the hands of women, than you have to read this. It is the story of a 13-year-old boy who was first abused by his mother and then by the school system who treated him as a criminal rather than a victim of abuse. Why is it that liberals will go to great lengths to fight for the rights of people who are not really victims and then deny the real victims any solace? It is hard to believe that such an abusive counselor is allowed access to a school system--if I were this kid's parent--I would be down at this school in a flash. Here is a portion of the story:

My cousin rarely cries. I figure he picked that up from one of us, his brother, me, or one of my brothers. But now, he’s practically in tears. Why? Because the class assignment was for them to write about their experiences with the causes of rape. The girls had to write about times they felt “pressured” by boys. And the boys… well, they had to write about times they tried to “force” themselves on girls. Not pressure them, force them.

This is the sort of fmnst trite that keeps boys silent. I wonder how many of the boys in that class have been abused. I wonder how many of them have been raped. I wonder how many of them go home to a house full of violence and say to themselves, “I won’t be like this when I grow up” only to have some moronic narcissist say, “You have a penis. Yes you will.”

Since when do counselors in schools have a right to abuse children in this way? And any 13-year-old boy who dares stand up to one of these "feminists" is made to feel powerless, both by the school who allows this indecency and by the lack of support from other parents and school administrators. Everytime something like this happens in a school--there should be a backlash--against the person who advocated such a stupid assignment and against the school that allowed such a person to victimize innocent young people. Raising hell against this state-run form of mental abuse is the only way to get this outrageous behavior to stop.

Update: Now this rape indoctrination is extending to college campuses--read Lionel Tiger's article in the Wall Street Journal--thanks Instapundit.


Anonymous The Random Yak said...

This piece is dead on, and I appreciate you being here to write it, as this sort of honest commentary receives largely negative response when published by a male blogger.

I have a good friend who, after suffering four years of abuse at the hands of his child's mother (who refused to marry him despite his repeated requests), attempted to seek custody of the child. Had he been a woman, the court would have granted him full custody and probably jailed the abuser. As it was, his legal counsel (who was female) advised him not to even mention the abuse due to the court's inclination to disbelieve him and potentially punish him for "lying in an attempt to discredit the child's mother."
Fortunately, he did obtain 50% custody of the child. Unfortunately, he returned to the relationship and the abuse returned shortly thereafter. The feminist refusal to accept that "abusers" come in both genders (rare though this situation may be) must be overturned.

1:36 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

random yak,

I feel frustrated and angry that men are shouted down when they make points about male rights--bloggers or otherwises. The majority of men are not living like Bill Gates and Donald Trump--(although they are entittled to rights also). I think that men have to keep trying to make these points and not be afraid of the negative consequences. It would be like saying that women should have kept their mouth shut as their rights were abused.

The difference seems to be that both men and women will stick up for women but no one will stick up for men or boys--not even those of their own gender. But we must be willing to help young boys in this country--they do not deserve this type of abusive treatment from anyone.

1:44 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Jacob said...

A college self-defense video parodied on Family Guy:
"Look to your left. Look to your right. Statistically, both of these men will rape you."

2:23 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger David said...

"had to write about times they tried to “force” themselves on girls"...wouldn't this be self-incrimination? Wouldn't it be a violation of the Fifth Amendment for a public school to require anyone to write such a thing?

Maybe we need an educational version of Sarbanes-Oxley, extending the criminal liability of teachers (and especially administrators) for abusive actions.

3:37 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Kathy said...

Several of my husband's coworkers are divorced. One of them mentioned that for a man in a divorce, it's important to have a male lawyer because the female lawyers won't fight as hard for a male as they will for a female. That's obviously just his perception, but what a perception to have!

As for this type of assignment in school, I don't know if parents just don't know what goes on there anymore, or if they know they don't complain, or if their complaints fall on deaf ears. I taught high school for two years, and I know I could have given some outrageous assignments with no one being the wiser. For the classes I taught, it's unlikely a student would have complained. My own kids are homeschooled, so although we have our own challenges I don't have to worry about crazy class assignments (other than the ones I might generate myself!).

3:58 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous Teresa said...

I can't tell you how angry I am for this boy. What an ugly, hateful, despicable thing for the counselor and the teacher to do to him!

And as a woman - I am outraged that this "counselor" is making girls believe that any advance by a boy is an adjunct to rape! If we went by this person's opinion of how relationships should be conducted - there would be a complete end to any sort of relationship with the opposite sex.

I guess in their stupidity they don't even see that they are advocating women never let a man close to them - period! Which means they live alone and - hey if they want kids - do the artificial insemination route... no rape to deal with there!

I am just so angry that they are MAKING both the girls and the boys write out proclamations. Making them! This means that 99% will be made up - because they have to write down SOMETHING. If I was a parent and my child told me this - I'd be threatening to take them to court!

I am glad to see the pendulum is at least noticed. This means it will start to head back toward center - sadly many boys (and girls too) will be hurt badly before it does. I just hope it's not too late.

4:04 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous FC said...

My university orientation experience several years ago was just as Tiger describes. An armed female university police officer gave a speech to a lecture hall full of students of both sexes. It could be summed up: "If you boys commit date rape I will punish you."

4:33 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen - a close friend's sone was just aquitted this past thursdaty of 2 counts of sexually abusing his daughter. The guy and his ex-girlfriend are seperated, and stung by a court order that gave my friend's son 50% custody, the ex accused him of sexually abusing their daughter. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, the female social workers in the sex crimes unit and the female prosecutor went full steam ahead, and charged my friend's son with 2 counts, that woould have made him eligible for 2 25 year sentences!!!!! They pressured him to no end, to get his to agree to a plea. But, thankfully, the jury saw through the total BS and found him not guilty.
It is almost like as if the prosecutor and the other staffers ( all women, BTW) were part of the Catherine MacKinnon cult - i.e. a man is always guilty if a woman makes a complaint, and that women are always right.
Luckily in this case, the Jury was smart enough ot to buy into this kind of hooey. I wonder how many men are in jail, falsely convicted by man-hating prosecutors.

4:41 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Very sad and very interesting but not surprising.

4:57 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Brent Michael Krupp said...

You write, "now this rape indoctrination is extending to college campuses". It isn't just "now" -- I was a college freshman in 1986 and they mailed every single one of us (via campus mail) a pamphlet on date rape. This at an engineering school -- you know, almost no women there at all, almost all the readers of the pamphlet young men, and it was, of course, all about how horrible men were. We mostly laughed it off, wondering how we were supposed to date rape women when we couldn't even get dates.

So this crap has been going on for a long, long time. =(

4:58 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there any legal remedy for this kind of madness? Can such a "counselor" be sued for defamation or something similar for this sort of action? I'm not normally in favor of suing one's way out of a problem, but I think if the people peddling this tripe knew they could be held legally accountable, it would end (or at least be minimized) in a hurry.

5:03 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's actually far worse than than is being expressed here, because it sends a contrary message to one of our founding principles of 'innocent until proven guilty'. You can hardly tell kids thats what we base our system on and then show them real world examples where the opposite is true.

5:05 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous Auld Pharte said...

A relentless campaign waged on many fronts by a perpetually angry group of radical feminists over a period of some 40+ years was bound to have slanted effects on society. And this is clearly one such. Unfortunately, not only are the effects egregious, but the rationalizations are now firmly embedded in everything from school policies to the law of the land. It will be a long, bumpy road back; and this article (and blog) is an appreciated contribution in the direction of reason and fairness. Thanks.

5:10 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Thanks to everyone for the comments so far. I think one of the most important contributions each of us can make is to make sure we know what is going on in our child's school and talk to the teachers, principals about issues that seem unfair.

I suppose one could file a sexual harrassment suit on this boys behalf but that is hard and takes money and time. School board meetings are a great way to go--you can go raise a stink there and sometimes they will listen. We have some of these meeings televised as well as city council meetings where one can tell the whole city what is going on. This, at least has the effect of scaring the board members into doing something.

5:16 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Pete said...

David said above: Maybe we need an educational version of Sarbanes-Oxley, extending the criminal liability of teachers (and especially administrators) for abusive actions.

YES! With the culture war intensifying,the abuse is just going to get worse. The only thing that might stop it, short of home-schooling and vouchers, is attaching tort and criminal liability to abusive behavior on the part of teachers and administrators.

Where are the smart lawyers when we need them!

5:37 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Pete said...

Helen, the only way that abuse like this will be stopped is by legal action. Might I suggest checking with the Landmark Legal Foundation.

5:49 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...


Thanks for the link--I understand that legal action is required at times--but in addition--one of the things I find is that parents and others can advocate as well--and should not be afraid to do so. I have worked in schools where they intimidate parents and staff. When working with such schools--I have found it effective to stand up to them verbally and have gotten results--unfortunately or maybe fortunately, I usually am never asked to come back to work with such a school!

6:18 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous tyree said...

Thank you, Helen for standing up for the men. I was talking to a woman I had just met when I mentioned that I was 22 when my wife and I were married. She said that men weren't mature enough for marriage at that age, as if I was not standing in front of her. When I taught Architectural drafting at a trade school one of my students disappeared from school for three weeks. His daughter turned him in for abusing her because he wouldn't let her go to a party with people he did not trust. He was trying to protect her but she had herad in school how to get back at him. He spent two weeks in jail and thousands of dollars fighting the charge after his daughter went to the police the next day and said she lied about the abuse for revenge.
Some of the awareness is warranted and welcome. When a friend of mine and I look two vans full of teenagers to a "Taking Back Sunday" concert the roadie (who looked like he worked with Keith Richards in the 60's) gave us a steely eyed stare with a smile and asked us what we were doing there. After we explained (and the kids vouched for us)he got us passes to the balcony so we could watch over the kids better. No one wanted two middle aged guys standing among thousands of teenagers, but he handled it in a cool "I'm protecting your kids" kind of way that was more relaxing than threatening. Thanks again in the name of my three sons.

6:24 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous TS said...

The more things like this I read, the more I think of the words of Rosa Parks being interviewed on why she refused to give up her seat on the bus that day:

"The more we gave in and complied, the worse they treated us."

6:33 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

What really sends a message of "guilty until proven innocent" is to indict liberals and feminists as a class for an anonymized story passed on through a 12-year-old and then an anti-feminist adult. Who is to say what actually happened in this incident — and in a way it's beside the point. The real point is that it's liberals this and liberals that, but there is no way for any non-anonymous liberal or feminist to address the accusations. This particular blog entry did not even say "some" liberals; this time it's just plain "liberals". That may seem less fair, but maybe it's just more honest.

The more typical scenario, not in the extreme stories themselves, but in the lives of some of the biggest fans of the stories, is straight divorce and child support. It is very convenient for an ex-husband who owes child support to demonize feminism. I'm not in trouble because I cheated on my wife and now cheat on the payments, he can reason, it's because she and the courts hate men. It's because the "feminazis" have taken over.

I am well aware that there are a lot of spoiled and abusive women on the other side. I'm sure that it happens all the time. I just doubt that it happens as often. I really doubt that old-fashioned feminism, the kind that speaks for battered women, for exploited working women, and for cheated and broke mothers, is somehow redundant or unnecessary in present-day America.

So my thought for the women who think that it's independent-minded to criticize feminism is: I hope that you never encounter one of the classic situations, like the one where you quit a good job to raise a family and your husband finds another woman. Then you'll remember what feminism is all about.

7:27 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous MJS said...

Helen, here is a letter that the parents can and should use in a case like this:
Address to principal, head of school board.

Dear Sirs/Madams:

It has come to my attention that one of your counselors has been engaged in inappropriate, offensive, and sexist behavior. She has engaged in undermining children's rights and accusing children of criminal wrongdoing without a shred of evidence. She has, instead of acting as a counselor, berated students who were unwilling to lie to assuage her ideological leanings. This counselor is ___[Insert Name].

On ____ date, ____ came into my 13 year old son's class allegedly to address and discuss rape. Instead, this turned into an abusive attempt to force boys to admit lies and to mischaracterize their actions. My son has been abused, physically and ___ by ____. As a person who has suffered abuse, he would never rape or abuse a girl or young woman -- he is too acutely aware of the pain.

This counselor forced the boys in his class to identify cases where they had "forced" themselves upon girls -- apparently meaning any kind of advance to the girls including attempting to hold hands. When my son, as some of the other boys, said they hadn't forced anyone, the counselor (and I use that word loosely) became incensed and started calling these boys, including my son, liars. When my son noted he had been abused, she berated him and accused him of lying -- even though his teacher, who was sitting there in the classroom was very much aware of the truth of my son's recitation of the facts.

This woman harassed the boys in the class and my son. She defamed each one and accused all of them of being, essentially, criminals. She repeated the defamation for everyone in the class to hear, not caring as to the truth -- with reckless disregard of the truth. In treating the boys, as a class, as potential abusers and rapists and their actions s suspect, she affirmatively acted, as an agent of the school district in discriminatory and defamatory fashion.

This incident has caused severe emotional trauma to an abused child. It has defamed him and the other boys in the class. It constitutes gender based discrimination of the worst kind.

I demand: (1) An apology from the school board and the school to my son and the boys in the class. (2) Immediate dismissal of the abuser from any public position and remove her ability to hurt other children -- she should be forbidden to enter the grounds of our schools. (3) A retraction from ___ of her unfounded accusations about my son and the other boys in the class. (4) An apology from ___ for his discriminatory actions and her abuse of my son and the other boys in the class. (5) An assurance from you that this will not recur.

Should these conditions not be met, we will institute litigation against the school, the "counselor" and anyone aiding or abetting her in her defamation, discrimination and child abuse.

Very truly yours,


7:30 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...


Seriously, I sometimes wonder if you dislike those of your own sex--you seem to me an example of one of those men who sabotage those of your own gender and then call yourself a feminist--whatever that means.

I can tell you what will really happen if you call on one of these so-called feminist groups or individuals to help you in anyway--nothing. I was involved in an incident in the past where I was not given state work because of a "good old boy's network." I tried to get help from these so-called feminists and they told me to just "not make waves--it would not do any good." I finally fixed the problem myself in my own way, but without the help of the very feminists you keep advocating for.

I understand that this was an anonymous story of a twelve year old boy--but it is an example of what happens on a regular basis in our school systems--I know--I have worked as a psychologist in these schools. I use the story as a springboard for others to take action when they see such problems in the schools. Boys are losing ground there and to turn your head away from some of these male issues by focusing exclusively on women's issues is not only self-deceiving but downright anti-male.

7:58 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Gina said...

Oh Boy , I have a friend who hates feminists , and only because of how they demean men , and I never really took notice before but I guess some reminders like that article you posted , anyway he ( Deane A writer

sometimes I will hide an article from him just so he doesnt get started .

8:07 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous David said...

In 1996 (or so) I sponsored over $100K of research at OSU; I was the Project Engineer at my employer and we were having OSU do some fundamental research for us.

The first time I went down to visit the professors and students, I noticed a urine splash shield that read "You have the power to prevent rape in your hands!" I have never raped anyone, and would never consider it - and I was staggeringly offended.

I wrote the President of the School to complain, and got a FOAD (F*ck Off And Die) letter. I then replied stating that I had just pushed to have my employer sponsor three grad students in over $100K of research - and that I would make sure that such research would be the last research going to their school (an empty threat - not like I actually had that authority).

Next time I went to visit the campus, the shields were gone and replaced with ones with no text.


8:08 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Gina said...

I hope to never have any type of problem with anyone abusing my child in school , it will be the last child or children they will ever be able to teach .. I will see them in court .

8:09 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Bill Dalasio said...

Part of me is forced to wonder, "What do these idiots think they're going to create?" My suspicion is that given time, and continued denegration of manhood, you'll end up with very few men with a healthy understanding of the concept. In effect, you could very well see a split into neurotic "women with penises" and a second group that, in effect, reverts to primordial savage behavior.

8:19 PM, December 19, 2005  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

I think greg has a reasonable point here. There is a considerable overselling of the point and tarring all leftists and feminists with the same brush. Also, it is certainly true that men -- well, anyone human, actually -- will attempt to hide their personal pathology behind some cause.

I know feminists and leftists who fit into each of those camps in my line of work. I know females who become outraged at the mere suggestion that some woman's story might be doubted, and unfailingly assume a male to be guilty. But I know more feminists who are able to take a realistic look at each situation for what it is and assess accordingly.

I will go so far as to say that the overlooking and acceptance of this type of extremism may be more common than greg estimates. An interesting phenomenon is how unwilling feminist women are to go head-to-head with a pathological female hiding under cover of feminism. I don't know where this is trending.

8:32 PM, December 19, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Should'a called him "Instahubby".

This is the 15th time I've visited your blog directly, by the way. Why I know the number, I have no clue.

12:13 AM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

AVI: Using politics as an alternative explanation for personal failings includes what I called "Feminism For Numero Uno" in the other thread. I.e., the brand of feminism in which a woman only stands up for her own rights and not those of any other woman. Needless to say, that's not the kind of feminism that I believe in.

Helen: I do not think that I can be fairly accused of undermining men or men's rights. In other threads on this blog, I discussed the scourge of prison rape, which I suspect accounts for most forcible rape against men in America. I also mentioned the specific case of Dr. Margaret Bean-Bayog, the psychiatrist who sexually exploited her male patient, Paul Lozano, and drove him to commit suicide. I said that I was glad that she was disbarred. I regretted that no one pursued a theory of criminal malpractice in her case.

The difference between these cases and the one that you linked is that they are documented. They are not anonymous "he said, he also said" accounts from 13-year-olds. It is no favor to men to casually trade in unconfirmed stories of child abuse. It may be a loss for women if the accused is a woman, but that does not automatically translate to a gain for men.

It is also hard not to be irritated when I read a "question" like "Why do liberals deny the real victims any solace?" When I recounted the outrageous Bean-Bayog case, I did not ask, "Why are psychiatrists convinced that they always help their patients?" Comments like this are ambush rhetoric, not constructive discussion.

12:49 AM, December 20, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


You said, "wonder if you dislike those of your own sex".

Interesting, in light of I believe a previous admission on your part of difficulty relating to your own gender.

Also, you accuse greg of being "one of those men who sabotage those of your own gender and then call yourself a feminist". This seems to me precisely what you do.

Greg's point is well-taken. Not every story that reflects poorly on A woman should rightly constitute an indictment against women, feminism, and liberals and a rallying cry for men and conservatism.

We can all agree that the woman in question is a whackjob in need of firing. But your use of the story as yet another opportunity to toss some labels around and cast blame wholesale against liberals and feminism is simple-minded.

2:22 AM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger jw said...

At age 12 I would not have been able to do anything with this assignment. I didn't know what rape was. I didn't even know what sex was. I did know more than a bit about an abusive mother, but wouldn't have been able to put it into words. Even today, there are going to be a large number of 12 year old boys who could do nothing with this assignment: they simply do not have the dataset needed to translate it into meaningful concepts.

Like any topic where males are the ones hurt, there are a great many people who will perform all manner of mental gymnastics to find a way around saying "this is a problem." That is a tragedy which infests our culture.

I must admit though that I do not like liberal/conservative mud slinging. It is unhelpful.

There are problems in society. Big problems which need fixing. Among the rest, the unthinking disparaging of any suggestion that males might be in trouble; that males might indeed be in need of major help.

5:30 AM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

This is by no means new. When my wife left my daughter (at 2) and myself high and dry, we were emotional messes. I heard about and called Parents Without Partners. I had heard it was a good place for solace. When I called, a woman answered the phone and listened to my call for a few seconds. Then she interuppted and said (I remember to this day), "You can't be having any problems, you're a man!" Then she hung up on me. No amount of trying to contact a superior or such worked. In other words, screw you bud.

7:16 AM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger submandave said...

jw begins to make my point.

That the assignment was made at all is a problem, but that it was made to pre-teen students is a bigger problem. To ask a 12-year-old girl to write about times they felt "pressured" by boys carries the assumption that every girl in the class has had some sort of romantic/sexual experience. Likewise for boys to write about trying to "force" themselves on a girl. What message is then being implicitly given to those students who have never had any experience of that kind? Am I the only one disgusted by a school counsellor who feels it is appropriate to have children who may only have a dozen pubic hairs between the whole class discuss their sexual experiences vis-a-vis rape?

Without knowledge or experience there is no learning, only indoctrination. This is the basis of my objections to explicitly including gays in "diversity education" for elementary school children, since in order to understand why gays are "different" the child must first be taught the concepts of sexuality. Tolerance and rape awareness are important topics, but the entire idea of appropriateness seems lost on the stereotypical liberal education gang.

12:23 PM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

submandave: It's all well and good to be disgusted by this story, as long as you realize that you don't really have the facts. There is no telling what the 13-year-old boy who reported this to cousin exaggerated or omitted. The cousin has his own strong political views and there is no telling what he exaggerated or omitted.

Look at the difference between this case and Helen's other post about the insane woman who chopped off her infant's leg. Helen said that the woman was only going to be in custody until March, but we could look at the original article and see that that was not the sentence for the crime, it was only custody for non-payment of bail. Details like that matter and it is very important to have the real documentation. (You don't necessarily have to cite it yourself if it is easy to find with Google.) On the other hand, Helen's misreading was completely normal; I could equally make a mistake like that too. Normal, that is, for a disinterested adult. You can expect far more error than that from an upset 13-year-old.

Unless someone documents this rape counseling incident, you have to take it the whole story as hypothetical. So yeah, hypothetically speaking, it was completely outrageous.

1:02 PM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger Bill Dalasio said...

Well, I guess the third time's a charm for Mr. Kuperberg. By the third time, he finally acknowledges that the situation described is not okay.

1:53 PM, December 20, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"The first time I went down to visit the professors and students, I noticed a urine splash shield that read "You have the power to prevent rape in your hands!" I have never raped anyone, and would never consider it - and I was staggeringly offended."

Heh, that's so typical. We've got posters and flyers all over the school, especially the men's room. I looked at the announcement board in one of the buildings and saw 6 flyers saying the same exact thing in 6 different ways. The school sends around counselors to talk down to the fraternities [90% Greek organization participation in the school, so this isn't Animal House, but the general male student body] at least once a year, plus other random events.

The males resent it, but know better to say anything. The only time I've ever heard of anyone actually saying something iconoclastic was a sorority girl who interrupted one of the sessions to ask anyone else if they'd had any problems. She made the point when noone raised a hand. Indeed, not scientific to ask people to disclose this in public, but nevertheless indicative that some of the women themselves know how ridiculous it has become ...Course, I also had an impressionable ex-girlfriend who'd clap if they put every penis on campus in a vice to prevent one incident in 100 years - just to be safe, you know.

A problem is that by adopting the same machinations of the women's gender industry, that by itself is an admission of defeat. Even if they're successful, you'll have another self-perpetuating industry dedicated to seperating American society into yet another interest group. Egalitarianism should be the emphasis, not specifically male rights, course I'm an idealist.

2:19 PM, December 20, 2005  
Anonymous Mike said...

I think one of the problems is that different people have different understandings of what "feminism" means. For some, a feminist is somone (male or female) who believes in equality of the sexes while also recognizing that there are deep differences between them. That there are some things that men are better at in general and that there are some things that women are better at in general. Most people would fall into this category of belief. I certainly do. However, feminism has also come to mean the belief that women are superior to men, that all men are primitive beings only driven by their desire for sex, that all women are victims and that all men are victimizers. This is what a great many people think of when they think of "feminists." There have been attempts to seperate the two by giving this second group another name. Ultra-feminists, female supremicists, and even the scornful feminazis. Unfortunatly, all these have been met with scorn, derision, and accusations of sexism. When people mock feminists, it is this second group that they are usually talking about. If traditional feminists (i.e. equality) don't want the term to be co-opted, then they should really try to get a handle on the situation instead of harping at people who criticize feminism.

2:32 PM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...


You sure jump thru convulated logical hoops in order to deny this boy's experience. Responses like yours are why counselors, etc. get away with this kind of stuff. This case would be pretty easy to corroborate. Hypothetically speaking, to everyone whose never seen nor touched you, you don't exist.

Last year I served jury duty in a case where a live-in boyfriend was accused of sexually molesting his girlfriends daughter over several years time. No physical evidence, no witnesses that ever saw anything. Basically a he said/she said except that the man had "acted guilty" by leaving town. But there also was no motive for the girl to lie. He was convicted on over 50 counts but not all.

Here's a similar well documented case from Massachusetts. In some places educators, and others are more interested in their agendas and the hell with the kids and parents' rights.

2:35 PM, December 20, 2005  
Anonymous Timothy said...

I posted once that I thougt Andrea Dworkin's influence on dialogue was pernicious, the respose I got from a "women's studies" friend was that "some women have been victimized by every man they've known, so you can't blame her for her radical outlook."

My feeling is that sort of logic excuses whatever prejudice anybody wishes to hold. You can't blame him for joining the Klan, he's been victimized by every black person he's known! Please.

Learn to deal with individuals rather than groups, groupthink is dangerous, dammit, that's a point we need to get across. To everyone.

2:42 PM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Dadvocate: If this Chicago middle-school abuse confessional is so easy to corroborate, why don't you corroborate it? There were 20 or 30 witnesses there, namely the other kids in the classroom. Is it really true that the rape counselor demanded a public confession of guilt from every boy in the class? Is it true that the boy's teacher pressured him to publicly recount abuse at the hands of his own mother? Is it true that the rape counselor then told him that he was lying? What exactly did he say in public about his mother?

The incident that you describe as "similar" is actually crucially different. It's about a confidential survey, not classroom confessions.

4:20 PM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

DADvocate: Let me get this straight. You're a fatherhood advocate, but you sent a man to prison solely on the basis of witness testimony from his girlfriend's daughter? You simply couldn't think of a reason that the girl and her mother might lie? I can only hope that you left out details that makes this story less awful. A medical exam or corroborating witnesses or something. What you have described so far sounds like a formula to send any man to prison.

This is exactly what I meant when I said that it is no favor to men to trade in unconfirmed accounts of child abuse.

4:27 PM, December 20, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...


The girl had confided in a schoolmate who reported the abuse. When the authorities first investigated the mother believed the daughter was lying. The live-in boyfriend fled to some western state which is not an admission of guilt but didn't look good. The defense had no witnesses nor did the defendent testify. Not only do I have no reasonable doubt this guy was guitly, I have no doubt. I had shortened the version to save words.

I have about 10 years experience working with disturbed/deliquent adolescents and mentally adults. I've heard lots of made up stories but never one like the related in this post. It makes no sense that is fabricated. If some political motive was involved it would most likely gone beyond being related in a blog but with complaints to the school board, legal action, etc.

Children are easily intimidated by adults and authorities often incompetent. Just before my youngest son entered the first grade, he was "assualted" on two seperate occasions over the same weekend. Once by his mother and once by her then boyfriend. On Sunday, when I saw the bruises on his arms, shoulders and back I took him to the local hospital to have him medically examined and document the bruises. The emergeny room personel called the police after seeing the bruises and consulting with me. A policeman came and inspected the bruises and all agreed this should be reported to the child abuse authorities.

I reported the abuse to the child protection agency in the county where my ex-wife lived. The result was that the investigator, after some perfunctory initial investigation, had minor surgery for a slipped disc and pretty much dropped the ball. He said since both incidents happened in another county he wasn't the person who should investigate but he never told anyone this until he testified in court custody hearings many months later. One of the incidents happened at the Cincinnati airport. I called the D.A. of that county, he said it was the airport police's jurisdiction. I called the airport police, they said to call the D.A. After many phone calls back and forth, I realized they would never do anything. Then I called the boyfriend and in so many words told him to be glad he lived 800 miles away.

When this kind of stuff happens to kids and no adult cares enough to do anything about it, it riles me up. To try and blow if off through convoluted logic and skepticism is flat wrong. Since you a so skeptical you may look at the bruises here. I just hope it isn't too late for some kid before you start believing that just maybe many need our help, support and protection but not manipulation, indoctrination and abuse.

The case in Massachusetts is similar in that the school officials are prying into sexual matters that in which they have no business without parental consent or knowledge beforehand, complete lack of respect for parental rights.

12:15 AM, December 21, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...

P.S. I realize these bruises aren't that bad, but how bad does is have to get before somebody does something? My ex-wife got the message also. There have been no incidents since.

12:16 AM, December 21, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

DADvocate: I'm very sorry that your son showed up with bruises. It's strictly your business and if you say that it was abuse, I have no reason to doubt you. In fact it is so purely your own business that I really wish that you hadn't linked to these photos. You ought to have some respect for your family's privacy.

But you are also trying a bait and switch here. Bruises are physical evidence, which is one of the main things missing in your other story. You keep coming back to the theory that there was no reason for the witnesses to lie. Obviously they hate the defendant. Even if they hate him for a good reason, in your scenario they had enormous latitude to exaggerate.

12:40 AM, December 21, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...

But there was really no exaggeration although there was latitude. I'm am fully aware of false accusation charges. If I remember correctly there was a sexual abuse witch hunt in California in which many were convicted. Now many have been found to be totally innocent and the victim of an overly zealous prosecutor and other investigators. But some are still in prison. We should always be on guard against this.

The mother had believed for quite a while, maybe months, that her daughter was lying and this was documented and testified to by the investigators. And, as I stated before, the daughter had not gone to the authorities. She told a friend. This does not seem like much of a false accusations scenario and neither does the case described in the post.

I hope you're not that skeptical in your interactions with kids. They would soon stop confiding in you as they would feel "He won't believe me anyway." If we must err, let's err on the side of the most vulnerable, the kids. I believe we can do that and be reasonable and without convicting people on false accusations as in California.

8:44 AM, December 21, 2005  
Blogger Freeman Hunt said...

As to Greg's first post, he makes a good point: what happens when you need the help of feminists? They will be the ones to fight for you. Just look at how they stood up for Monica Lewinsky, Paula Jones, and Juanita Broderick. Oh. . . nevermind.

11:10 AM, December 21, 2005  
Blogger TestSubjectXP said...

There is no telling what the 13-year-old boy who reported this to cousin exaggerated or omitted.

I think what's more important is to realize that things like this do happen whether or not this particular instance was true.

9:10 PM, December 22, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

If you see clear-cut incidents all the time, why call liberals and feminists on the carpet for a story that hasn't been confirmed? Why not stick to what you can prove?

1:38 AM, December 23, 2005  
Blogger Toy Soldier said...

Greg, I am the cousin from the post. I would never post revealing information about the school, my cousin's identity, or the other kids identities. Although I only have to go on what my cousin said, for the 13 years I've known him, I have yet to hear him lie or embellish anything of this nature.

As for documentation, it's a blog, as in "web log" or "web journal". If I were to post about my abuse, and someone were to consider my treatment in DCFS horrible, I wouldn't be required to hand over my DCFS documents. I believe I am allowed to speak about my experiences or others' experiences and the comments can be taken at face value. If you don't personally believe it, that's perfectly okay. But it seems a little absurb to want evidence for a personal post/rant.

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