Friday, November 11, 2005

City Confidential Show

After this recent school shooting, we have all probably seen enough of kids who turn violent (please remember, this is a fairly rare occurrence). However, if you would like to see more about kids who comitt mass murder, you can tune in on Saturday night (November 12th) and watch me on City Confidential on A&E at 7 PM Eastern time. The show is entitled "Kentucky Gothic" and is about the Lillelid case in Knoxville that I did a documentary about two years ago. If you are interested in the psychological underpinnings of this mass murder case--you can read more about it at my website www.sixthemovie.com.

35 Comments:

Anonymous Patrick Rich said...

I would be very interested in watching the show. Is that 7 PM Central time on the 12th?

3:59 PM, November 11, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi Patrick--it is 7:00 Eastern time. You can also go to the A & E website through the link provided on my post and see all the times the show runs.

4:02 PM, November 11, 2005  
Anonymous Patrick Rich said...

Thank you, Helen, both for the information and prompt response. I will do as you suggested, and I look forward to the show.

4:41 PM, November 11, 2005  
Blogger Richard said...

Oh Cool. The Instawife has a blog too!

I'm a school direct in Pennsylvania and so the A&E program interests me. I plan on taping it. I'm glad you make the point above that the type of violence that makes national news is a "fairly rare occurence." Joe and Jane Public would disagree with you on every emotional level you can imagine. We have some board memebers who would turn our schools into mini police states, so bad is the paranoia. Hope the program tonight strikes a balance.

1:57 PM, November 12, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is from an article titled "Clique...Clique...Bang!" by Dan Savage (of the column Savage Love). It was on page 18 of the May 14, 1999 issue of the Chicago READER.

"While I didn't suffer the extreme abuse some of my friends did, I was fucked with enough to spend four years fantasizing about blowing up my high school and everyone in it...[Harris and Klebold] were hateful, twisted, racists...But they didn't go guns blazing into a vacuum...In our rush to make martyrs of the victims and demons of the murderers (the cover of Time screamed, 'The Monsters Next Door!') the culpability of the other kids at Columbine has been glossed over. So long as some kids go out of their way to make high school hell for others--while teachers and other students stand by doing and saying nothing--there will be kids who crack, and not all of them are going to quietly off themselves..."

Have you ever read this article? If so, what was your opinion? If not, can you comment on this excerpt?

3:32 PM, November 12, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

To annonymous,

To see my views on this topic, click on the Dr. Smith's Articles under my links and take a look at "Is school violence the fault of outcasts or their tormenters?

4:11 PM, November 12, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

I have to say that I never had much patience for these co-dependency theories that ended up blaming "the environment" and "the system". It is true that the system can sometimes save kids from themselves, from irresponsible parents, or from bad friends. Sometimes. That does not mean that either teachers or popular students should be blamed when they get shot by school loners.

Even the bullies shouldn't get the main blame when the loners shoot up the school. For one reason, some of the loners and social mascots in every school are also hypocrites. Some of them contribute to the environment that they blame, both by playing the victim and with their own bullying on the side. I was a school loner too, and I am not free of blame.

But in particular, I had thought that parental oversight was important to conservatives. I had thought of it as plain common sense, too. Mallard Fillmore seems to think so. One can take it to extremes; I'm not saying that all the bad things that kids do should be counted as sins of their parents. What I am saying is that if you're going to talk intervention and environment, you should start at home, not school. It makes no sense to talk past parental oversight just because the parents own guns.

4:47 PM, November 12, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi Greg,

Thanks for your input--I think that ultimately--people are responsible for their own actions but it does not mean that we cannot look into other factors that may contribute to violence. Yes, a kid may be bullied at school--I do not excuse their behavior if they choose to shoot up a school but I do struggle to understand the reasoning in order to prevent a person from reaching such an extreme state of mind. BTW, just for the record--I am not a conservative--I attempt to understand human behavior based on my clinical experience, research and an attempt at finding out the truth, not on my political ideology.

6:22 PM, November 12, 2005  
Blogger AST said...

I've had to defend two cases similar to this. It really does seem that a group of kids will do things that none would have on his/her own.

In one case two boys took a third into the hills to camp, and murdered him.

In another two boys stole one's mother's car and stole some gas in Green River Utah. When the Highway Patrol caught up, one of them sat on the window and shot at them with a .22 rifle. He ended up killing a patrolman. He was bipolar and had this idea of going out in a blaze of glory fighting the cops. The cops shot their tires out and they rolled the car, but neither was seriously hurt.

The case of the Pikeville kids sounds like the same thing. I only saw the last half hour, but I have it set to record when it comes on again at 2:00 a.m. (Mountain Time -- 4:00 a.m. Eastern). It really brought back some memories.

8:05 PM, November 12, 2005  
Anonymous katie said...

ast wrote: "It really does seem that a group of kids will do things that none would have on his/her own."
Same with adults, no? Mob violence; riots; lynchings; gang rape.
Point is, the "group" did something harmful. Work to understand the dynamic all you wish; defend all the criminals you can.
But let justice have its day too. Let the wheels roll on, to bring to some conclusion, for society's sake, what's happened.
Saw the show, Dr Helen, and it was very good, I thought, and your points were well-made, about lost, aimless kids and towns that feel like jail.
But such things occur in towns that aren't like jail as well. Sometimes, things just occur because there are people who will do them.
Sometimes, jail is in the mind, not the town or school. No?

8:50 PM, November 12, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Katie,

Yes, I agree that crime happens in towns that aren't like jail etc. I do not justify in any way what these teens did--it was inexcusable to harm innocent people. Once a kid has comitted these crimes--it is up to the justice system to determine what will happen to them. However, my interest in understanding the factors that go into the kid choosing to kill is so that intervention can target those aspects of the teen's life that are trouble areas for them and if that does not work--shouldn't the mental hospital or police try to do something? If we have police who do not listen to parents when kids go bad or we have hospitals that say people are dangerous and drop them off with no intervention--is that fair? If so, why do we need to fund police if they are under no obligation to the public or fund hospitals that do not properly do their jobs?

7:18 AM, November 13, 2005  
Blogger Richard said...

I watched the program and it left me with mixed feelings. The kids were obviously “sick” as most people would understand that term. And yet justice seemed to require that they be punished. The punishment, though, only makes "us" feel better, maybe. I doubt it will be a deterrent for other kids who might decide to go down that road. I have always been conflicted with the dichotomy that sick people must be punished because I mostly view sickness as an involuntary condition, and so mitigating the act in some manner. But then, what about the victims? I understand punishment for harming innocent victims as well. I believe in that. Very difficult to reconcile the two streams of thought.

As an attorney I was deeply disturbed by the plea agreement in the case. I do some criminal law myself and so know first hand how some defendants really can get railroaded into bad pleas because they can’t afford to roll the dice on a jury. To link all the kids to the same plea, the everyone-or-no-one plea, seems to me just plain wrong. If it is true that the 14-year-old was the (only) trigger man, how can one possibly make sense of the universal life sentences? The outcome had all the elements of a legal lynching.

You did a nice job on the show, I thought. Your comments were far more intelligent that the Bible Thumping DA. If I recall correctly, he was seeing divine intervention in the kids’ capture, and opined that because of the case he now “knows” “evil”. What a medieval minded lesson to draw from it, that “Some kids are just plain Evil.” That’ll really help things. What a whack job.

9:34 AM, November 13, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi Mr. Ames,

I do not think that the jury believed there was only one trigger man. It appeared from the evidence that there was probably more than one shooter. It does seem from the two juveniles point of view that they should have gone to trial since they could not receive the death penalty. As an aside, as a lawyer maybe you could answer my question--why is it that we do not incorporate a mentally ill but guilty verdict into our criminal justice system? It seems that juries rarely find defendants insane as maybe they fear that they will be released from the mental hospital--but with a mentally ill but guilty verdict--maybe there would be more leeway in keeping a person incarcerated after they were found competent.

10:15 AM, November 13, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Several states already do have an optional verdict of "guilty but mentally ill" (GBMI). PBS has a complete chart here. Three states have taken it one step further: They outright abolished "not guilty by reason of insanity" (NGBI) and allow only GBMI. Which shows you what these states think of psychologists.

Actually, I'm not sure what I think of NGBI either. I saw the movie "Anatomy of a Murder", which is based on a real trial in the 1950s in which the defendant was acquitted by NGBI. What the jury in that trial really thought was that the victim deserved it, not that the defendant was crazy. "Anatomy of a Miscarriage of Justice" might be a better title for this movie.

It's also not clear to me whether a sentence of GBMI is meaningful in the most serious crimes where might be invoked. There has been a trend in the United States towards life in prison without parole for these crimes. As in the Lillelid case, where they threw away the key for six defendants even though there were only four victims. The courts don't seem very interested in degrees of complicity these days.

If they throw away the key anyway, why waste money on a psychologist.

11:49 AM, November 13, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Greg,

Thanks very much for the PBS information--its quite helpful.

12:05 PM, November 13, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I watched the second half of the show although I was somewhat familar with it from reading reports when it happened. While I believe we should have the insanity defense I also believe it should be applied carefully as it could be said that almost anyone who commits random murder is crazy.

My first job out of college was as a juvenile probation officer for the state of Tennessee. Due to my experiences in that job I began to believe there truly was evil in this world. I've also worked in mental health and social services. At least one of my clients had murdered his mother but, rightfully in my view, avoided prison due to the insanity plea. I don't believe there was legal insanity in this case.

I grew up in Knoxville and now live outside of a small town in Kentucky. Many small town kids grow up with a social ignorance of the world as a whole. Their images of the world are developed from the distorted views they see on TV, etc. more so than kids who live in larger cities. Pikeville is a long way from a large city of any sort, 150 miles or more. In 1995 USA Weekend named it one of the 20 Best Small Towns in the country. But, I'm sure the isolation and social cliqueishness can make it a hard place to live for some.

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