I don't care too much about why someone becomes a doctor, etc as long as they do their job well. It does inspire more faith when people are motivated by altruism but it's not realistic to believe that there will be enough people motivated by altruism.
Interesting how college were the 4 worst years of Youn's life, high school was mine.
I think motivation is important. Not that it is guaranteed to hold, as in this case. I think truer reasons would hold better, more surely. However, I think medical school should use motivation as a stipulation and find a means of weeding for it. I would even argue that his current stated motivation is less than sterling. Who doesn't want to be Santa Clause? Yeah, I suppose, I expect a lot. And, I suppose, through paying the price to get through school, there is hope that motivation will be corrected.
I just have hope that a good society which raises children with a real sense of right and wrong, would ensure the people who deal with other people's lives directly would make sure doctors would be doing so for the work and not their own proclivities, whether those be the Santa Syndrome, a search for gold or women, or scientific curiosity. Is it really that difficult?
High school was a living hell for me. College was the best 4 years of my life. I hated graduating.
I can appreciate someone not caring about another's motivation for their job, but I can't discount it. Once I know the motivation is money, power or status, I can predict altruism or a sensitivity to the welfare of others will fly out the window. I see it all the time. It is the curse of bad politicians; you keep me in office and I'll tell you anything you want to hear.
Amusing--I suspect everything worthwhile was accomplished or invented by some guy trying to impress the ladies.
Most things, yes, but not everything. GPS was invented by men because everyone knows we hate asking for directions. And a lot of other good stuff was invented because laziness is the foundation of efficiency. There's always someone trying to find an easier way to accomplish some task. And if it makes him money and impresses the ladies, well that's a bonus.
Once I know the motivation is money, power or status, I can predict altruism or a sensitivity to the welfare of others will fly out the window.
All sorts of horrid things have been done with altruistic intent. We're doing this for your own good, ya know. In New York, right now, they're putting ridiculous restrictions on school playground games for the good of the kids. Numerous freedoms have been stolen for the good of everyone. I distrust people with altruistic desires because most often they want control over my life.
I like people motivated by money. Give them money for desired behaviors and all is great.
Until you lose the bid on a critical issue. Illegal immigration, dealing with jihad, the drug issue, all areas we the people are losing because we do not bring enough gold to the table to buy the right politicians and others who have their hands on the levers of power.
I hate the notion that for a doctor to give his all to save someone, he will want to serve the highest bidder. It's true, I just don't like it.
I hate the notion that for a doctor to give his all to save someone, he will want to serve the highest bidder. It's true, I just don't like it.
I don't like it either, but, judging from the doctor's I know, status and financial reward are the most common motivators. One of the Boy Scouts I worked with in Scouts recently got admitted to medical school. Great kid, he'll be a great doctor. The admitting board said he was "cocky" but had a right to be. I'd trust him completely as a doctor but I've never heard him mention altruistic ideals as a reason for wanting to be a doctor.
You're right about the critical issues. Yet, people motivated by power and altruism are even less responsive to others' attempts to control their behaviors because you have almost nothing to offer them, unless you can give them money to buy power, etc.
It is not until he is 25 that he gets a girlfriend.
There's a classic Silicon Valley joke to which the punch line is "I'm a software developer. I don't have time for a girl-friend, but a talking frog is really cool." Even for some of us straight guys, there are more important things than girl-friends.
Once I know the motivation is money, power or status, I can predict altruism or a sensitivity to the welfare of others will fly out the window.
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages...
"I want to fix people.".."I want to make them look different if they need to, or even if they want to. Because maybe I can make them...better."
As long as he doesn't insist on making them better whether they like it or not, that's fine. In particular, it's fine as long as he doesn't want the State to enforce his wish to improve people.
There was one guy in my premed classes and the first year of medical school who openly stated that his motivation was money. He flunked out.
My own reasons had a lot to do with my interests in engineering. Kids that age are very naive about money. Some were family reasons.
This guy with the book sounds like a bunch of my students. I have had lots of Asian kids who are really socially kind of stunted. Those tiger moms, I suspect. Medical schools now, because of the AIDS epidemic, spend a lot of time on the taking of a sexual history. In my days as a student nobody cared. Now, it's a big deal and some of the Asian kids, especially boys, have a lot of trouble with it.
The old saying I heard is that the top 1/3 of graduates in med school make the best researchers, the middle third the best doctors, and the bottom third of graduates make the best money.
Not absolutely needing to get laid is better than getting laid.
From the first book of Plato's Republic (Allan Bloom's translation):
I was once present when the poet was asked by someone, 'Sophocles, how are you in sex? Can you still have intercourse with a woman?' 'Silence, man,' he said. 'Most joyfully did I escape it, as though I had run away from a sort of frenzied and savage master.'
absolutely needing to get laid leads to all sorts of dramas....getting laid is magnificent.
but so is riding my bike down highway 5 at 5.00am as the sun comes up and there are no cars on the road but police cruisers and the occasionaly taxi...freedom.
and so is walking my dog in the snow and letting him run with all the other dogs in the park...leash laws be damned.
and so is playing achilles last stand with my oldest son...loud.
Generally speaking, people motivated by money are going to provide good service as it's the surest way to achieve that goal. There will be some cheats and those who cut corners but I prefer that possibility to altruism. The worst sort of tyranny is based on doing what you think is best for another person.
"Generally speaking, people motivated by money are going to provide good service as it's the surest way to achieve that goal." _____________
Well ... umm ... no.
Not in the case of meat importers and not in the case of physicians.
Although I have to tip my hat to the many brave physicians who are treating the dead if only Medicaid will take a look.
You don't realize how some physicians are really, truly assholes.
I mean destroying surrounding tissue in surgery and then saying it was preexisting-type assholes.
As in mocking the victims of a malpractice suit that they lose.
As in some medical boards simply NEVER yanking a license. By the way, the dude who is *accused* of killing Michael Jackson is still a practicing physician. Better to wait then to deny a fellow brother of his easy-earned money.
Some will keep their shit-eating grin through a malpractice suit that they lose. I'm not kidding. They keep their latin-spouting, non-responsive smirking behavior no matter what.
And if you are a member of society who worships them as gods (and these people do exist, just as they worship Jerry Springer as a god) ... grow up. Please.
I understand that women worship them: The Gods of doctorhood can bestow upon them the status and money to which they want to become accustomed (should there be a most unfortunate divorce).
But men and grown-up women should really understand what some of these people produce. You are responsible for your own health in the end, and don't forget that. Don't accept an authoritarian physician. Give him hell if you can, but otherwise just move on.
I understand it's better now, but I had a real problem in the 1980's with anxiety and panic attacks. I understand now that the solution on the psychology side is cognitive behavioral therapy and on the psychiatric side is antidepressants (although a much older drug - Elavil - worked for me).
But back then, I didn't understand what my problem was. And neither did the doctors I went to. They truly had no clue. I would get checked over and over again for diabetes. I got a general blood workup, and I even got checked in an intensive test for a pheochromo cytoma.
I kept coming back because I thought some physician would recognize what I had. Nope. I got hand-over-the-mouth-laughing type responses, I got a psychiatrist who asked me if I believed in God, and I got another GP who said I should get married. I'm really not kidding.
Although it's finally appropriate here, look back at past posts and you'll see that Michael K continually stresses his Dr. - physician - MD - Doctor - status with almost every post.
It's like the high school boy who only feels comfortable in his leather jacket.
Dr. Michael K, M.D. F.A.C.S., apparently, can't make a comment without giving his credentials. And probably because some people are really stupid enough to believe whatever he says based on his credentials. Why else would he be motivated to constantly write that shit?
br549 sez: "What's better than getting laid? I mean, really?"
---
Ummmmmmmm ... maybe realizing that you're old enough that you're not dependent upon, or a slave to, sex and that stupid women can no longer manipulate you?
Is that the right answer?
I don't think I was ever a slave to sex when I was young, but you really sound like a candidate. I guess open up the wallet for the next prostitute, dude, or if you are really, really stupid, the next wife.
Erm: "Not absolutely needing to get laid is better than getting laid."
Amen. I've never pursued sex. I crave romance and companionship -- that search hasn't been entirely successful, either, mind you -- but not Tab-A-Slot-B.
44 Comments:
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This comment has been removed by the author.
What in fuck are you talking about JG?
I don't care too much about why someone becomes a doctor, etc as long as they do their job well. It does inspire more faith when people are motivated by altruism but it's not realistic to believe that there will be enough people motivated by altruism.
Interesting how college were the 4 worst years of Youn's life, high school was mine.
Dadvocate, I am with you on this. Their motivation is less important to me than their skills.
Trey
I think motivation is important. Not that it is guaranteed to hold, as in this case. I think truer reasons would hold better, more surely. However, I think medical school should use motivation as a stipulation and find a means of weeding for it. I would even argue that his current stated motivation is less than sterling. Who doesn't want to be Santa Clause? Yeah, I suppose, I expect a lot. And, I suppose, through paying the price to get through school, there is hope that motivation will be corrected.
I just have hope that a good society which raises children with a real sense of right and wrong, would ensure the people who deal with other people's lives directly would make sure doctors would be doing so for the work and not their own proclivities, whether those be the Santa Syndrome, a search for gold or women, or scientific curiosity. Is it really that difficult?
High school was a living hell for me. College was the best 4 years of my life. I hated graduating.
I can appreciate someone not caring about another's motivation for their job, but I can't discount it. Once I know the motivation is money, power or status, I can predict altruism or a sensitivity to the welfare of others will fly out the window. I see it all the time. It is the curse of bad politicians; you keep me in office and I'll tell you anything you want to hear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd9pzC3G-T0
Amusing--I suspect everything worthwhile was accomplished or invented by some guy trying to impress the ladies.
Amusing--I suspect everything worthwhile was accomplished or invented by some guy trying to impress the ladies.
Most things, yes, but not everything. GPS was invented by men because everyone knows we hate asking for directions. And a lot of other good stuff was invented because laziness is the foundation of efficiency. There's always someone trying to find an easier way to accomplish some task. And if it makes him money and impresses the ladies, well that's a bonus.
Once I know the motivation is money, power or status, I can predict altruism or a sensitivity to the welfare of others will fly out the window.
All sorts of horrid things have been done with altruistic intent. We're doing this for your own good, ya know. In New York, right now, they're putting ridiculous restrictions on school playground games for the good of the kids. Numerous freedoms have been stolen for the good of everyone. I distrust people with altruistic desires because most often they want control over my life.
I like people motivated by money. Give them money for desired behaviors and all is great.
"Give them money for the desired..."
Until you lose the bid on a critical issue. Illegal immigration, dealing with jihad, the drug issue, all areas we the people are losing because we do not bring enough gold to the table to buy the right politicians and others who have their hands on the levers of power.
I hate the notion that for a doctor to give his all to save someone, he will want to serve the highest bidder. It's true, I just don't like it.
I hate the notion that for a doctor to give his all to save someone, he will want to serve the highest bidder. It's true, I just don't like it.
I don't like it either, but, judging from the doctor's I know, status and financial reward are the most common motivators. One of the Boy Scouts I worked with in Scouts recently got admitted to medical school. Great kid, he'll be a great doctor. The admitting board said he was "cocky" but had a right to be. I'd trust him completely as a doctor but I've never heard him mention altruistic ideals as a reason for wanting to be a doctor.
You're right about the critical issues. Yet, people motivated by power and altruism are even less responsive to others' attempts to control their behaviors because you have almost nothing to offer them, unless you can give them money to buy power, etc.
It is not until he is 25 that he gets a girlfriend.
There's a classic Silicon Valley joke to which the punch line is "I'm a software developer. I don't have time for a girl-friend, but a talking frog is really cool." Even for some of us straight guys, there are more important things than girl-friends.
i always arrive after jg has removed his comments....
...and i mostly do things to impress my self.
girls only care about money ( and power etc...)for the most part, and so gee wizz guitar playing or soccer skills are for me.
...oh yeah, and an acid head friend of mine in high school went on to be a top surgeon in america...kinda scary.
Once I know the motivation is money, power or status, I can predict altruism or a sensitivity to the welfare of others will fly out the window.
It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own self interest. We address ourselves, not to their humanity but to their self-love, and never talk to them of our own necessities but of their advantages...
What's better than getting laid? I mean, really?
"I want to fix people.".."I want to make them look different if they need to, or even if they want to. Because maybe I can make them...better."
As long as he doesn't insist on making them better whether they like it or not, that's fine. In particular, it's fine as long as he doesn't want the State to enforce his wish to improve people.
There was one guy in my premed classes and the first year of medical school who openly stated that his motivation was money. He flunked out.
My own reasons had a lot to do with my interests in engineering. Kids that age are very naive about money. Some were family reasons.
This guy with the book sounds like a bunch of my students. I have had lots of Asian kids who are really socially kind of stunted. Those tiger moms, I suspect. Medical schools now, because of the AIDS epidemic, spend a lot of time on the taking of a sexual history. In my days as a student nobody cared. Now, it's a big deal and some of the Asian kids, especially boys, have a lot of trouble with it.
The old saying I heard is that the top 1/3 of graduates in med school make the best researchers, the middle third the best doctors, and the bottom third of graduates make the best money.
That is how the saying goes.
Trey
Michael K sez: "My own reasons had a lot to do with my interests in engineering."
--
Yes, I know what you mean. I majored in law because I was interested in physics.
br, what`s better than getting laid? nothing...until right after.....
What's better than getting laid? I mean, really?
Not absolutely needing to get laid is better than getting laid.
From the first book of Plato's Republic (Allan Bloom's translation):
I was once present when the poet was asked by someone, 'Sophocles, how are you in sex? Can you still have intercourse with a woman?' 'Silence, man,' he said. 'Most joyfully did I escape it, as though I had run away from a sort of frenzied and savage master.'
absolutely needing to get laid leads to all sorts of dramas....getting laid is magnificent.
but so is riding my bike down highway 5 at 5.00am as the sun comes up and there are no cars on the road but police cruisers and the occasionaly taxi...freedom.
and so is walking my dog in the snow and letting him run with all the other dogs in the park...leash laws be damned.
and so is playing achilles last stand with my oldest son...loud.
plato would have approved.
+1 for J. Bowen.
Generally speaking, people motivated by money are going to provide good service as it's the surest way to achieve that goal. There will be some cheats and those who cut corners but I prefer that possibility to altruism. The worst sort of tyranny is based on doing what you think is best for another person.
"Generally speaking, people motivated by money are going to provide good service as it's the surest way to achieve that goal."
_____________
Well ... umm ... no.
Not in the case of meat importers and not in the case of physicians.
Although I have to tip my hat to the many brave physicians who are treating the dead if only Medicaid will take a look.
You don't realize how some physicians are really, truly assholes.
I mean destroying surrounding tissue in surgery and then saying it was preexisting-type assholes.
As in mocking the victims of a malpractice suit that they lose.
As in some medical boards simply NEVER yanking a license. By the way, the dude who is *accused* of killing Michael Jackson is still a practicing physician. Better to wait then to deny a fellow brother of his easy-earned money.
Some will keep their shit-eating grin through a malpractice suit that they lose. I'm not kidding. They keep their latin-spouting, non-responsive smirking behavior no matter what.
And if you are a member of society who worships them as gods (and these people do exist, just as they worship Jerry Springer as a god) ... grow up. Please.
I understand that women worship them: The Gods of doctorhood can bestow upon them the status and money to which they want to become accustomed (should there be a most unfortunate divorce).
But men and grown-up women should really understand what some of these people produce. You are responsible for your own health in the end, and don't forget that. Don't accept an authoritarian physician. Give him hell if you can, but otherwise just move on.
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
I understand it's better now, but I had a real problem in the 1980's with anxiety and panic attacks. I understand now that the solution on the psychology side is cognitive behavioral therapy and on the psychiatric side is antidepressants (although a much older drug - Elavil - worked for me).
But back then, I didn't understand what my problem was. And neither did the doctors I went to. They truly had no clue. I would get checked over and over again for diabetes. I got a general blood workup, and I even got checked in an intensive test for a pheochromo cytoma.
I kept coming back because I thought some physician would recognize what I had. Nope. I got hand-over-the-mouth-laughing type responses, I got a psychiatrist who asked me if I believed in God, and I got another GP who said I should get married. I'm really not kidding.
And these are Gods? Holy crap.
Basic facts: They charged me and my insurance company an arm and a leg, and they didn't even come close to a solution to my problem.
Once again: There are people who worship this group as Gods? Really?
This comment has been removed by the author.
This comment has been removed by the author.
Although it's finally appropriate here, look back at past posts and you'll see that Michael K continually stresses his Dr. - physician - MD - Doctor - status with almost every post.
It's like the high school boy who only feels comfortable in his leather jacket.
Dr. Michael K, M.D. F.A.C.S., apparently, can't make a comment without giving his credentials. And probably because some people are really stupid enough to believe whatever he says based on his credentials. Why else would he be motivated to constantly write that shit?
Just submit a signature containing your entire life resume with every post, "Michael K".
Bejeezus.
br549 sez: "What's better than getting laid? I mean, really?"
---
Ummmmmmmm ... maybe realizing that you're old enough that you're not dependent upon, or a slave to, sex and that stupid women can no longer manipulate you?
Is that the right answer?
I don't think I was ever a slave to sex when I was young, but you really sound like a candidate. I guess open up the wallet for the next prostitute, dude, or if you are really, really stupid, the next wife.
Just don't overpay.
This comment has been removed by the author.
M, they sound like false gods to me. Glad you finally got some help.
Trey
Erm: "Not absolutely needing to get laid is better than getting laid."
Amen. I've never pursued sex. I crave romance and companionship -- that search hasn't been entirely successful, either, mind you -- but not Tab-A-Slot-B.
"Sex is a waste of batteries." -- Morrissey
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