"And now, you will have to pay the price."
Reader Leslie emails a link to the wife of a radio personality who has taken to the internet and airwaves to "train husbands":
When her husband, Bob, who must rake in the bucks from his radio show to put up with this abuse, gets the wrong thing at the grocery store, his wife retorts:
Isn't this verbal abuse? Too bad they are not in France where Bob might be able to file charges of verbal abuse, but my guess is Bob sees it as a cute game for the moment but he probably won't when he gets hit with the next divorce.
Once you learn the secrets of How to Train a Man your relationship will never be the same. No matter what your level of happiness is now, it can be maximized to its full potential by utilizing our simple tips. It’s easy.
When her husband, Bob, who must rake in the bucks from his radio show to put up with this abuse, gets the wrong thing at the grocery store, his wife retorts:
My conclusion: Thank you for going shopping. However, you didn’t get the sausage in the casing because you resent having to go to the grocery store. It’s passive aggressive and uncool.
And now, you will have to pay the price.
Isn't this verbal abuse? Too bad they are not in France where Bob might be able to file charges of verbal abuse, but my guess is Bob sees it as a cute game for the moment but he probably won't when he gets hit with the next divorce.
Labels: male abuse
posted by Helen at 7:37 AM
59 Comments:
If the sausage is in the casing, in the time it took to have the casing-discussion with Bob, one could have cut the casing and removed the sausage for the recipe. It beats having to go to the store and buy the sausage and it beats a long complex battle with one's SO on the secret psychological reason behind the specific sausage selection. Choose battles wisely.
"And now, you will have to pay the price."
Isn't this verbal abuse?
Insufficient information. It could be foreplay, but we hope that the camera discreetly pans away at this point. The internals of the relationship should remain private.
smitty1e,
No, we don't know what "pay the price" really means but the tone of this woman's stuff along with the acquiescence of her husband is indicative of why men are slowly but surely turning into second class citizens by their own hands.
On "Training Husbands".....This is what I don't understand: If there are 3 billion men in the world wouldn't it be smart to find one that is already trained and behaving to one's standards rather than attempting this training regimen? The concept seems like a lot of work. The site implies that all husbands need training, which also means that it is expected that all men behave badly or should be behaving badly. It places wives in a mother role and husbands in the role of perpetual child. If this is where American society stands in 2010 I'm very glad I have chosen not to marry and get involved with this dynamic. I'm busy and I don't have time to be someone's mother.
The only appropriate price would be to remove the sausage from the casing.
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In any instance, can you imagine a gender reversal here? A man telling his wife she will need to "pay the price" for coming home with the wrong thing from the grocery store?
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In any instance, once she has her man "trained," she probably won't like the results.
I've been trolling here for a long time. I've only commented once maybe twice.
I would say that men are our worst enemy. Women believe that they can take someone "broken" and fix them. They work tirelessly to do so. All the while feeling as though they are the victim, because the man will not be broken. We are supposed to be "in tune" with how a woman feels and thinks. We are supposed to do things as the woman would do them. If we do not, then we must be punished. We must be put in "time out". Also, each episode is compounded like interest. The smallest, most trivial thing becomes a huge matter. Each fight becomes a rehash of all of the fights before.
If the man breaks, then the woman has nothing but contempt for him. He is a spineless loser. How can someone respect a person that doesn't respect himself?
Men are caught in a no-win situation. The alternatives are to maintain one's strength and be a hero in the fight or give up and never play.
So far, men are willing to continue trying in the hopes that things will work out.
Women are man-trainers; even if they don't want to they'll do it unconsciously anyway.
Found a good site:
http://www.jcoopersmith.com/birdman/3stages.htm
"The site implies that all husbands need training, which also means that it is expected that all men behave badly or should be behaving badly."
LOL behaving badly by wives' standards is really behaving wisely by reasonable standards.
" It places wives in a mother role and husbands in the role of perpetual child. "
Naah, it's more like master-slave.
"I would say that men are our worst enemy. "
LOL Freudian slip much?
However, you didn’t get the sausage in the casing because you resent having to go to the grocery store.
How can she possibly know this? Can she read minds? I'm (quite happily) single and I occasionally forget to buy things at the grocery store.
And, since I've mentioned that I'm quite happy being single, I'll also mention that reading things like this makes me even happier that I've stayed single for nearly fifty-eight years now. I plan on staying that way for the rest of my life, unless American women change a whole lot and do it soon.
I'm not sure about a Freudian slip, but I will take responsibility for what I allow to occur in my life.
Like any other victim, many times it is the victim that allowed events to carry them along.
My wife and I describe it this way:
If a husband gets up off the couch and offers to get something from the fridge for his wife, he's a good husband.
If a wife does the same, she's giving in to the oppression of the patriarchy and selling out the women's movement.
Obviously, that's not how it works with our marriage, but that is the default worldview of many, if not most of my wife's contemporaries (early-30's). It's not even overt. It's just assumed in our culture.
Shockingly, many aren't married.
I'm (quite happily) single and I occasionally forget to buy things at the grocery store.
This is a battle I've been fighting a long time.
I'm always forgetting things. I'll leave my lunch in the car when I go to work. I'll forget to pack dress shoes or a belt when I head to the gym before work. These things impact nobody but me.
But when I forget something that impacts my wife, it's not an innocent mistake. I must be malevolently taking it out on her. Never mind my established record of general forgetfulness. "Passive aggressive" acting out of resentment is the only answer.
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Also, I like how this makes the "passive-aggressive"-ness out to be the main issue. I agree that if the man truly did resent going to the store, then buying the wrong sausage is not a productive way of expressing that.
But even if you stipulate that, we are left with the situation that he is feeling forced to do something he doesn't want to do? Isn't that worth addressing? And by addressing, I don't mean lecturing him on what a miserable human being he is for not wanting to do this for his wife.
Aphron's right. I have seen the enemy, and he looks like the guy in my mirror. Only not quite as dashing, of course.
The whole thing is yet another situation which can be correctly approached and easily blown to smithereens with my standard approach: Switch the genders, and then tell me what you think. Not to point out the egregiously obvious, but the shrieks of rage would be deafening. Boom.
Amazing stuff.
There's seems to be a "I'm going to teach you a lesson" gene in many women. Once, when I was still married, my wife kept rolling over and bouncing around in bed while we were "trying" to go to sleep. After several minutes I asked her if she was OK. She said, "Yes" that she was just teaching me a lesson because I moved around a lot in my sleep at night.
Of course, I remember these lessons while I'm sleeping and fully control my movements, just like I recite chapters from Dante's Inferno and Sartre's No Exit while sleeping.
Like Ern, I'm perfectly happy being single. Women constantly believe they can train a man. Any man who is "trainable" isn't worth a damn. And, many women disparage those who refuse to be trained.
Lots of men seem happy to be in the harness. Their boss tells them what to do and then they come home and their wife tells them what to do.
I couldn't stand a life like that for 2 seconds. I guess other men aren't happy if they aren't being constantly told what to do by the know-it-all woman.
"How to Train Your Whatever" of course implies there is no need for training on the promoter's side. Reading her blog, I must disagree.
Seems to me that the site and blog are written tongue-in-cheek with the real intent to show how NOT to treat your husband.
Then again, Marianne may be the biggest bitch since Oprah.
DADvocate has hit on something. Generally, women try to "teach us a lesson" by acting a certain way. The funny thing is they get even more angry when the stupid man doesn't pick up their nuanced way of instruction. Women get angry when men do not pick up their signals. It's as if they believe in ESP or something.
Sadly, women come an argument wanting not to only win but win by scorched earth methods. There can only be "unconditional surrender". Eventually, the man will realize this is b.s. and move out. The woman will become bitter at the b@#$#$d for leaving. He is being a selfish pig. She will never realize that she is a big part of the problem.
I'm glad to see it's not just me that found this incredibly hostile and condescending. For those that think it may be a joke, I suggest you listen to this podcast of one of their shows where they discuss this, or follow her Twitterfeed.
I don't understand why any woman would choose to be with a man who she didn't accept at face value... or why any guy would put up with being treated like the family dog.
Thanks, Dr. H!
I checked out the rest of the site and, well, I've seen worse. It seems she's offering "training" as an alternative to resentment and complaining. Some of it is actually good advice, though the "train your man" packaging is unappealing.
But I wonder if this is the only way some women will take advice -- packaged as "how to make your man half as awesome as you are!"
Of course, here's the ultimate training tip -- when your husband expresses a feeling, listen non-judgmentally.
If the husband believes he has permission to express the feeling that no, I'd really rather not go to the store an buy sausage, then he probably wouldn't act out passive aggressively.
But you don't sell books or get blog hits that way.
In any instance, once she has her man "trained," she probably won't like the results.
"Women are always trying to change a man. And once they've changed him, they don't like him anymore." -- Marlene Dietrich
Now imagine what would happen if some man somewhere came up with an article titled "How To Train A Woman".
LOL. Who's training who?
The man simply botched up the grocery store errand so that he could train his lazy wife will get off her lazy azz and take her lazy self to the grocery store. Then she can buy whatever she likes.
Unfortunately for him, she seems to be a slow learner.
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“is an example of a Trained Man technique of not trying to be louder, but smarter than your partner”
After reading some of her posts, I was surprised to read “but smarter than your partner” in the above passage. I expected “dog” because it sure sounds like what she really thinks she is doing, training her dog. You don’t treat a “partner” the way she writes about treating her husband. As others have noted, swap “husband” for “wife” in just the first page of posts and stand back for the explosion of feminist rage at the sexist man. Meanwhile, when women do it, it is either “tongue in cheek” so don’t you have a sense of humor or it is “well everyone knows it is true”.
My partner, yes "partner” and I get along pretty darn well. Neither of us play these head games. Do we occasionally do things that annoy each other, sure we are only human but we also treat each other as adults. Your spouse should not be treating you as a child, unless that is your “thing” in which case, you have no reason to complain.
Let me guess. Bob snorts cuddle juice.
Bob is an omega male. He needs a script. Here's one,
Darling Leslie, I paid the price when I married you, despite your hefty ass and gargley voice. You miss your beloved spiced pork sausage. Well then, follow me into the bedroom where I will feed you another kind of sausage....now, now Leslie, your protests are vain...you've been disrespectful, and you must now pay the price. The sausage god must be assuaged.
Can y'all suggest other scripts for poor Omega Man Bob?
I'll give you another script, Jeff. The difference between mine and yours is that mine will work. Bob should say, "I bought the wrong sausage? Thanks for point that out. I'll know which brand to buy for next time." Then Bob should go to another room and watch TV or do something else and forget about the discussion. Leslie is looking for a fight and Bob wouldn't be giving her one. Discussion over. Game, set, match, Bob.
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"Then Bob should go to another room and watch TV or do something else and forget about the discussion. Leslie is looking for a fight and Bob wouldn't be giving her one. Discussion over. Game, set, match, Bob."
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If Leslie is really looking for a fight, she will follow Bob into the other room and nag, nag, nag, nag. She will stand between him and the TV and nag, nag, nag, nag. She will stand between him and the door so that he cannot leave. She will then start to get nasty and get more and more cutting if he doesn't have a conversation with her.
I can see you haven't been in many relationships with women, Cham.
Bob should go to another room and watch TV or do something else and forget about the discussion. Leslie is looking for a fight and Bob wouldn't be giving her one. Discussion over. Game, set, match, Bob.
Right, because it would never even occur to the shrew to follow him into the other room and continue to hector him.
However, you didn’t get the sausage in the casing because you resent having to go to the grocery store. It’s passive aggressive and uncool.
Oh, lawdie how I hate that dime-store Dr Phil-n-Oprah psychoanalysis. I had some laid on me not too long ago - I secretly wanted her to go snooping through my stuff so she could find supposed 'evidence' to misinterpret as me being unfaithful. I'm sure she felt justified leaving me.
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"Then Bob should go to another room and watch TV or do something else and forget about the discussion. Leslie is looking for a fight and Bob wouldn't be giving her one. Discussion over. Game, set, match, Bob."
Bob should get a beer out of the frig before going to watch TV. If he's a real real man, he'll have a keg in the frig with a spout sticking out through the door like my uncle had.
JG - When did you meet my ex-wife?
Occasionally, very occasionally, I start to get a bit sentimental and wonder whether I shouldn't be more open to the possibility of another long term relationship with a woman....
....then I read something like this and I'm happy to buy a steak and a cigar on the way home tonight....
I hope for the sake of future generations that there are some sensible women giving decent advice to young ladies, something like:
a) you catch more honey with flies than vinegar; or
b) if you want a loving husband don't be a fat-ass nagging bitch.
Personally, if the guy stays put and accepts this nonsense, he has only himself to blame.
For myself, if I had a partner who pulled that garbage, I'd tell her to go "eff" herself and I'd walk out then and there (long before it got to the marriage stage). And please don't tell me there aren't warning signs prior to marriage. They're out there, if you're willing to see them.
However, since I don't plan on ever getting married, it's kinda a moot point, isn't it?
Guys, if you feel this strongly about it, then don't get into a relationship. See, it wasn't so hard. Something about making a mountain out of a molehill...
But I wonder if this is the only way some women will take advice -- packaged as "how to make your man half as awesome as you are!"
Appealing to women's narcissism has long been a lucrative endeavor.
To answer Helen's question: No, I don't think it's verbal abuse, but it's not an expression of love either. After visiting the link I was left wondering where the love was. Are these people lovers, or are they score-keepers looking for a chance for a "gotcha" moment?
It's worth remembering also that in relationships we (both genders) are always training one another. It's unavoidable.
Whenever we thank the other person or praise them for something they've done, they will learn something about what we like. And whenever we express disapproval, they learn something about what we don't like.
This is a natural process and goes on all the time in every healthy relationship. It's not bad unless it's done to manipulate or control the other person, or as some kind of punishment.
What bothers me about the examples at the link is that the men are being treated as a children -- not as an adults with dignity, worthy of respect.
Leslie is correct that Bob has poor judgment... I mean, look who he married.
Is this as good as it gets for Feminism? I mean does it always have to be a struggle? It reminds me of the CCP mantra from the cultural revolution in the 60s: "never forget class struggle" only in this case it would be "never forget selfishness"
How do we know this Leslie is a feminist or a feminist leader? All we know about Leslie is that she is married and that she feels her husband needs to be trained. Where does it say that feminists advocate training husbands? Where are the official feminist rules listed? I'd like to see them.
"And please don't tell me there aren't warning signs prior to marriage. They're out there, if you're willing to see them."
There are warning signs, certainly, but it takes more than willingness to see those warning signs -- it also takes some experience. For a lot of men gaining that experience is costly, both emotionally and financially.
alexamenos,
One needs to be aware of his surroundings (which, let's face it, is not the case at all these days). And yes, it does involve willingness, which is personal responsibility. All a man has to do is read up on horror stories to understand that the deck is stacked against him. If that is the case, then don't get married.
Tell younger men to nip this crap in the bud when they first see it spring up.
You see, it's possible to train women out of this sort of nonsense, but you have to catch it early.
By train, of course, I mean tell her firmly and immediately that direct disrespect is simply unnacceptable. Funny thing is, if you say it like you mean it, and repeat it on occasion, it just might sink in.
Once or twice my wife plainly disrespected me, and I immediatly told her that wasn't something I'd tolerate. Of course, she's had to do the same to me once or twice as well, when I've been careless or rude. It's a two way street. This of course requires actively and assertively acting like an adult, and expecting your partner to do the same.
The result? We've been getting along just fine and haven't disrespected each other in years. Sure, we've annoyed each other occasionally, but that's just minor 'routine' stuff.
It's worth mentioning that I was ready to do this because I've been reading the problems of Dadvocate and others on this website for years.
So, I'd like to thank Helen & the gang here. You guys have told me what to look out for and shut down early, and as a result, my wife and I are doing well.
TO: All
RE: That Woman....
....is a WONDERFUL hypocrite.
Somewhere down on the blog is a comment about it not being about training men like they were dogs. And yet. Up there at the top (at this moment) is the item about telling a man that there will be no sex unless he is funny and charming.
Can you say, "Sit up and beg"?
I knew you could.
She's your typical modern American female. And I thank GOD I found someone so much better.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[There are two ways to argue with a woman. Neither one works.]
P.S. By "That Woman" is the one running the blog on How to Train Your Man, one each Marianne Murciano.
That "how to train your man" website is awful. Whether the goal is to reduce the status of men even further or to simply stir up discontent and increase ill-will between the sexes, that woman ought to be ashamed of herself (although I'm sure she's just the opposite). She is simply encouraging angry misogynist men to retaliate with a similar website of their own, titled "how to train your woman."
Maybe she's doing it to get web traffic, though. Perhaps she deserves to be dismissed as a trollish "entertainer."
Natalie Wood once famously said, "The only time when a woman can change a man is when he's a baby and his diapers are dirty."
Women do themselves a great disservice when they forget that sage advice.
For those who do, or ignore it outright, the best strategy is simply to completely ignore them.
Putting up with bad attitude isn't worth the momentary pleasure of obligation sex. It certainly isn't worth money.
TO: All
RE: Marianne Murciano
It's kind of 'interesting' that I put up a comment—akin to what I posted here at 5:17 AM, May 05, 2010 on her 'blog'....
....and it has YET to appear there. However, other comment(s), presented on her blog AFTER I presented mine about her blatant hypocrisy, have appeared.
I guess I found the 'target'...
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[The Truth will out....]
Cham said, "'ll give you another script, Jeff. The difference between mine and yours is that mine will work. "
Good point. Here's my script. It has worked well for me in the past.
No.
Dudes! "Leslie" is the blogger (that would be me) who brought this to Dr. H's attention. Marianne is the Cesar Milian of marital relationships. Please don't mistake me for her. Yeesh.
Generally I do not post on sites, but I would like to say that this article really forced me to do so! Thanks, really nice article.
I have many instant-reaction thoughts, but my prime ones are this:
1. In the general sphere of unhappy wives, women need to get over it - put away the pettiness about the state of the home. The complaints about "man-children" may just come from the pervasive nagging and perfectionism that causes husbands to stop doing any housework at all because they know they'll get vinegar instead of honey for it.
1b. If you want the right sausage, get it yourself or deal with what the man bought. What an incredibly stupid thing to brawl over; far from a passive-aggressive move by him, this can only be symbolic of a huge attitude problem and unrealistic expectations on the lady's part.
2. To some wives, a man is a product/trophy/accessory, a consumer item that is supposed to do for her what she wants and if she is unhappy with that she can get angry and return it. (Unfortunately, alimony law backs this up.) Real people know that real relationships are not based on getting what you want by "winning" against the other person. In my experience, most people in America of either gender are unprepared to properly relate to a partner. (Divorce rates back THAT up.)
3. Men are not failed women.
Just made the mistake of checking the site and found this in the posts:
"If there’s one thing to be said about the men we train it is that most of them like to take shortcuts. What I mean is that it’s way easier to let things go than it is to fix them. "
Yeah, tell that to any man whose wife has ballooned to obesity, or made him the mythical source of all that is wrong with her life right down to the mis-organized silverware drawer, or stopped any interest in intimacy. There's some serious pot-and-kettle projection going on with this awful woman.
Allow me one more comment, inspired by Murciano's stereotyped complaint that "men just don't listen."
As I told a now-ex-girlfriend who complained men were clueless: "dear, we do listen. Sometimes we just don't give a crap."
That statement can be a mortal blow to someone whose whole being is tied up in making other people realize how important she is.
However, you didn’t get the sausage in the casing because you resent having to go to the grocery store.
To which I would reply "I'm not shopping for you any more. If you want something from the store, get it yourself."
Of course, that might be why I'm not married.
I think this comment above is key: "The complaints about "man-children" may just come from the pervasive nagging and perfectionism that causes husbands to stop doing any housework at all because they know they'll get vinegar instead of honey for it."
I watched the video on the site and found it completely offensive that she treats the guy like this. So, he brought home the wrong thing. My boyfriend goes to the grocery store for me (often, because I'm domestic on the level of Dr. Helen!...we've discussed this on her show!), and I'm grateful to the max. I'd rather decase a sausage than chew him out. He'd be miserable if I treated him the way this woman treats her husband, and I love him and want him to be happy.
BTW -- to be clear, if I had made this mistake, I would cheerfully volunteer to de-case the sausage myself. I had made a mistake; it's fair that I absorb the impact for it.
What I would not do is submit to this being used in an object lesson of how men need to be trained, and model for a viedo about it.
One of the reasons why so many men go for women 10-20 years younger.
I remember falling in love with a girl, dating her for 6 months, picking out a ring - and then I found her copy of "The Rules".
I was out of there in 10 secs, never looked back.
Dr. Helen:
As a Cuban American woman, I love that you get the whole Che Guevara insanity. Quite frankly, most Americans don’t—it’s sad. As for your comments about “training husbands,” don’t expect any “charges of verbal abuse” to be filed anytime soon in our house. For one thing we’re not in France, and my husband loves the fact that I’ve taken the mystery out of what it takes to make me happy. I’m the woman behind How To Train Your Man and the video blogs, many starring my “trained” husband, Bob. True, we are radio personalities at WGN in Chicago. Tune in sometime and hear what listeners are saying! (http://www.wgnradio.com/shows/sundaynight/)
If you take the time to read what this is really all about, you’ll realize that it’s far from being demeaning and degrading. Although the phrase, “Train a Man” can be upsetting to some men, it actually gets them whatever they want. I’m giving people sound advice; encouraging women to be honest about their relationships, and showing them how to ask for things they want while giving their partners what they want as well. I don’t need to apologize for talking about mutual respect, or creating a great relationship out of a mediocre one. In the process I’m hitting some hot buttons. Along with the truth, I’ve tried to incorporate a sense of humor. Have you personally seen the videos? Check them out. I hope you’re in a good relationship and that you and your mate are able to get a few laughs! What you’ll see are the issues we all struggle with. I didn’t make them up.
http://www.trainaman.com/
Marianne Murciano,
How To Train Your Man
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