Sunday, March 16, 2008

Is There Really Such a Thing As "Positive Discrimination?"

Apparently, the Equalities Minister, Harriet Harman in the UK thinks so (Hat tip: Mecurior):

White men could be legally blocked from jobs or promotions under controversial government plans to help women and black employees achieve equality.

Employers would be allowed to give jobs to qualified minority candidates in preference to other candidates under a change in discrimination law being drawn up by the Equalities Minister, Harriet Harman. The 'positive action' tactic, already used in the United States, has been a legal minefield in the UK and Harman's plans are likely to upset MPs who believe that merit alone should determine who is hired.

However, she believes radical changes are needed to help talented black and female candidates break through barriers in business and public life. The positive discrimination plan [my emphasis] would apply only in cases where two equally qualified candidates were after the same post, allowing the employer to tip the balance in favour of the minority candidate on grounds of race or gender.

And I love this:

Employers can currently specify that they welcome applications from minority candidates, and promote themselves to specific groups. However, Avon Fire Service, whose firefighters are 97 per cent white and male, triggered a storm of protest this year when it barred white applicants from an open day.

White applicants were barred? Is there really such a thing as "positive discrimination?" I say absolutely not. What goes around comes around. When I get thoroughly disgusted and think there is no justice in the world, I try to remember what Thomas Jefferson (or someone since Wikipedia says this quote was misattributed to Jefferson) said many years ago that still rings true:

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ... The course of history shows that as a government grows, liberty decreases.

At some point, the very laws that are supposed to promote "equality" by discriminating against certain people are usually the very ones that end up harming those they intended to help in the end--it's just a matter of time. I will not be so eloquent here as the above quote is regarding government "intervention," but I hope that laws like the above will come back to bite the very people who make them in the ass.



Blogger Marbel said...

However, Avon Fire Service, whose firefighters are 97 per cent white and male, triggered a storm of protest this year when it barred white applicants from an open day.

Guess white males are (mostly) the only people willing to risk their lives to save the lives and property of others. Too bad she didn't say how many people of the desired groups showed up to apply.

Of course I think it's ludicrous, but I'm white and married to a white male so I'm sure I just need to be reeducated.

8:11 AM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...


Yes, I wonder how many people really want to risk their lives for these jobs? Perhaps the firefighters in the UK should just go on strike, like the writers in Hollywood, and see what happens. The problem is, we need firefighters a lot more than we need Hollywood writers.

8:33 AM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

This will hurt everyone. It will obviously hurt the white men it discriminates again, but it will also place minority achievement under a cloud of suspicion: "Did they earn this, or are they a positive discrimination hire?"

More great points on this topic here:

9:42 AM, March 16, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Seventies-era name for this was ``affirmative action.''

9:45 AM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Mad William Flint said...

This is right up there with that other pc gem:

"Reverse racism!"

10:30 AM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Dancing Master said...

If you think about it, the majority of the population of the British Isles are white. So therefore, there would be a majority in the workforce of the same colour.

I personally do not think colour comes into it. You simply do not choose a man or a woman (but they have to prove that they can carry a person out of a burning building just the same as any male firemen in order to qualify in the role) just because they have been told to employ a black , asian or female in the post. It should simply be the best person for the job.

2:03 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Kat Wilder said...

I long for a world that no longer looks at labels — white, black, male, female, etc. — just people. It's just as disturbing to me that people will vote for Hillary because she's a woman and it's about time rather than she's the right person for the job (and I don't think so, but that's besides the point).

I just stumbled upon your blog; I really like what you have to say.

2:44 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Kat Wilder,

Welcome to my blog, glad you stumbled across it.

2:51 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

this is the rest of this story

Back in October, the same brigade demoted a fire crew who shone their torches at four men they found having sex in bushes.

In the latest incident, five "have-a-go" days at the brigade's Bristol HQ were set up to allow potential job applicants to try out firefighting equipment.

They also had the chance to chat to staff and learn more about selection tests ahead of an application deadline next week.

Two of the six-hour sessions have been limited strictly to women and ethnic minorities. Another was for women only and a fourth was laid on exclusively for ethnic minorities.

Only today's event is open to everyone, allowing white men to attend.

Avon officials said they were trying to recruit women and ethnic minorities because 97 per cent of their 921 staff were white men.

Avon Fire Service said 103 women and ethnic minority hopefuls had attended the three restricted open days held so far.

The women-only event was attended by 47, the ethnic event by 28, and the joint women and ethnic event by 28. The final event, also joint, will be held today.

Yesterday's session, which was open to all, attracted 179 people within the first 90 minutes.

Avon and Somerset Police were embroiled in a race row two years ago when the force rejected 186 white applicants at the first stage of selection.

The force received 800 applications for just 180 jobs and admitted it had "deselected" white male applicants in a bid to increase ethnic diversity. Chief Constable Colin Port was forced to apologise.

3:07 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Val McMurdie said...

Europeans generally don't have a feminized majority, nor do Asian countries. Comparatively the US is unique.

The primary reason feminists have succeeded in characterizing themselves as minority victims is their alliance with racial and ethnic minorities, when statistically they are the majority.

European women for instance have a name for US women, "American Bulldozers".

As long as American feminists ally themselves with Black, Latino, and minority voters as they have in California for the last 20 years,
it is likely they will be a working majority or close to a political working majority for years to come.

3:14 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i would disagree val, we have a more insidious feminist organisation. There was blairs babes, theres harriet harman, a lot of women in power and they are frequently worse than any man would be. i lived through the thatcher era. i saw this country die. and labour and his ilk, have hastened its burial. But we do have the Queen, she is our ruler and has been for over 50 years, so you cant say we dont like women leaders.

In the UK, more women vote than men, so they have more power, as can been seen by the benefits women get over men. ethnic minorities are next on the agenda, trevor phillips (black)the head of the equal opportunities commision wanted black boys to be segregated from everyone else as they have special needs.

It marginalises Men, White men in particular, turning them into 3rd class citizens. (btw the police cant strike its against the law, fire services can, but the idea that white men have a voice, is a rarity.

3:22 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger vanderleun said...

You know, I try to become more cynical every day, but lately I just can't keep up.

4:04 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

would apply only in cases where two equally qualified candidates were after the same post

This is the catch. How can you prove or disprove two people are "equally" qualified? The probability of two people truly equally qualified has got to be slim. What this really amounts to is "they're close" hire that one. If they're truly equally qualified, put their names in a hat and pull one out.

The only positive discrimination is when we hire the person most qualified, whomever is smarter, faster, stronger, or has more of the qualities needed for that particular job.

Funny, Michelle Obama said "the first time" in her life she is proud of America. I'm proud of American but I'd be prouder if you couldn't legally discriminate against anyone, including white males.

4:28 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

My only question is, what's taking employers so long to give EVERY job to a woman? If the feminists are to be believed (and, I ask, why shouldn't they?), employers who hire women would only pay 77% for exactly the same work product they get from some males. Every board of directors should fire management of every company that refuses to hire ONLY women. Imagine what a savings that would be to all the companies! The economy would flourish!

This would have other favorable benefits. Men wouldn't feel obliged by the women in their lives to be "the breadwinner" -- we could all be stay-at-home dads. And women would love us just the same -- they really don't care if their mate is successful.


6:01 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger Unknown said...

Is There Really Such a Thing As "Positive Discrimination?"

Yes, of course there is. It's practiced in many places.

Is There Really Such a Thing as "Discrimination that is Positive?"

No. Of course, I'm using the word discrimination in the sense of definition 1 in both sentences, not as in mental acuity at discerning differences.

8:03 PM, March 16, 2008  
Blogger lovemelikeareptile said...

The Naziesque/Orwellian World of Gynocentrism--

The "Minister of Equality" ( could Orwell be more prescient!)--
a woman of course--
decides that "equal- or better- outcomes" for women requires that men's civil rights be violated. Rather, she proposes that men have no rights in this area, so they cannot be violated. Men are thus officially sub-human in the UK.

Next men will be required to wear a Star of David with "Juden" on it in the UK. To reduce crime that affects women , men will be rounded up into camps and the population reduced to 10% males ( as one feminist has proposed).
Our Mistress of Equality assumes that "sexism" is the cause of any differences that favor men ( feminist ideology thus becomes law) and-- any differences that favor women-- why they are obviously due to women's innate superiority and need not be addressed, much less corrected.

Yes-- there will be a "change in the discrmination law" from the Office Of GynoLaw-- discrimnation against men does not count as discrimnation. Again,Men are thus sub-human by the fiat of women in power in the UK.

And important civil rights of women must be protected!!!!
--like breast-feeding in public
--- and playing golf at the country club with the boys
--and preference to women in the sciences-- but not to men in the arts or in college admissions ( again, a sex difference in favor of women is always the result of innate female superiority and no remedy is desirable or even possible).

The right to breast-feed in public is sorely needed-- it is much more important than men having civil rights.
As many women have been subjected to rude comments ( "Would you look at the size of that hooter !" )
when they have pulled a boob out in a restaurant while unsuspecting patrons are enjoying dinner. These rude comments lower women's self esteem and are a tool of the patrirchy to enforce male dominance.Any man making a rude comment to or leering at a lactating breast will be arrestd and sent to the Male Re-Educaton Camp.

Note how the Office of Equality has no proposals tailored to men-- its all women women women. Women typically think "Equality" is a code word for " Goodies for the Girls" and they are right.

I propose that the problem is not merely feminists per se-- the vast majority of women suffer from deficits of reasoning and morality so significant they have little problem proposing reducing men to the legal status of sub-humans. Some will object-- but that this could be seriously proposed reveals the power women have garnered ( usually through governmental agencies) and how they will use it-- to serve women and harm men. Of course, its been the de facto law for years in the US.

Back in 1996 there were 7 million more female voters than men in the presidential election. That is terrifying for anyone concerned with the rule of law and a civilized society.
Women are the ultimate self-interest/identity group-- they will continue to vote themselves money out of the treasury, continue to expand government to serve women's wants and continue to maliciously harm men and boys by changing the law or through willful neglect.
Politicians will continue to pander to women, because thats where the votes are.

Hyperbole ? Paranoid ? Misogyny ?
-- if only it were so.
There seem to be few limits to women's willingmess to violate the rights of men and boys and reduce them to sub-human status to serve their self-interest.
Example--It is now virtually impossible to convict a woman of first degree murder of a man-- women all assume he deserved to be killed or she was somehow impaired-- by somenthing he did ! Men are routinely convicted of their own murder. Women have already imposed sub-human status on men in the area of criminal law.

Can nothing stem the avalanche ?

5:35 AM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

only one thing, in a few years, more and more men (thanks to the internet a mostly male invention), the words will spread. the Feelings grow.

It may take 20 or 30 years, but there will be a strike back. And, well lets see.

who are mostly in the police, the fire service, most doctors, the army, the navy, the air force, can you guess.. revolution will not be televised, it will be bitstreamed. (to paraphrase).

the constant turning men into lesser people who are blamed for everything, when the laws make being a male a bad proposition. when all this reaches a critical point, There will be violence. Look at all the past evidence.

The black rights movement, that put down people, until one day.. some of it was peaceful other was violence. Look at india and pakistan, ghandi wanted peace.. but it didnt last beyond his death. and Now look at it.

Revolution will come, as it always does. (revolving like a wheel). anytime any group is demeaned, there comes a point of fire a point when people say enough is enough.

I am afraid if politicians, and other groups, ignore 49% of the population, that will lead to men feeling why not be the very monsters these women claim we are.

This is my fear, i hope it never comes to this kind of violence, but, i dont see much of a chance of it being a peaceful event UNLESS MAJOR changes happen.

Men are getting angry, even with the doctrination of young boys, they will not stop it. The more they push men down the greater the snap back will come.. and it will come.

8:52 AM, March 17, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Cross dressers unite!

9:04 AM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

actually that was once suggested to me, to get a job(in a jokey way). Since they cant refuse you a job because you are a cross dresser, and yet men are marginalised, its a solution.

9:06 AM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger lovemelikeareptile said...

I wonder what " AngryHarry" has to say about this latest outrage-- that women will be defending.
((Perhaps an obnoxious, adolescent "Zelda" will appear to "make fun of" all "the radicals" who are concerned about such trivial issues as how men are treated in our society.))

I think it is ""-- he has been documenting and ripping feminist boot-in-the-face activities for years-- in a highly entertaining way.

Australia is even worse.

Yes-- the Brits have never recovered from losing the Empire and are now posed perilously on the verge of sinking into feminist-induced anarchy, with the Queen adopting a lesbian lover and Prince Charles dumping Priscilla for the transgendered, softball-playing, flannel shirt-clad Head of Women's Studies at the University of London. I hear a national Sappho Festival is in the offing also.

A Minister of Equality ?--
next is The Ministery of Truth, staffed by feminists with their long lists of The Enemies of The People, mandatory memorizing of The Vagina Monlogues by kindergarteners, and extensive Two Minute Hate national broadcasts, listing the foibles of all males and corrective measures that were previously criminal acts, but since the Criminal Code has been revised by the Ministery of Legitmate Crimes , men are no longer protected by any act from women.
All men are assumed by law to be guilty and deserve any previously criminal act committed against them by women.
Crimes against men by women are now-- not really crimes at all. They are "positive corrective actions " from women.
Men must prove they are not scum in court as THE JUDGE -- who must be female-- instructs the jury-- who must be all female- in the Herstory of female oppression. Its a fair trial.

Perhaps the only hope for the UK and for men around the world --will some significant rock band emerge from the UK to alter the course not merely of music but of culture , the way Black Sabbath did in 1969, when they decimated the Peace-Love-Dope /Haight-Ashbury flower-child All-You-Need-Is-Love looney liberalism of the 60s. Music may be the only effective broadside against the female juggernaut.

Or ,perhaps separatism is the best way-- let men take all their achievements and inventions and culture and form a separate society.
Women then will be left with maintaining the extant inventions of men. When they are finally run-down, women will be left with a totally barren culture, devoid of literature, art, music, science, engineering , math, computer science etc, as civilization is almost totally the creation of men.
No more computers, TVs, cell phones, planes or motor cars-- not a single luxury. Its primitive as can be...
Gilligan's Island is the future of Women if we separate by gender.
So lets give them what they want-- a female -run society. Men leave..
Confronted with the cruel reality of life without men, they will beg us to return and bring our culture and inventions back.
Of course then women will start all over that History is the herstory of women's oppression and this will recur every 500 years, an Eternal Recurrence.

12:14 PM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger Joe said...

One horrible consequence of this approach to hiring is that many jobs are underrepresented because minorities don't qualify in sufficient numbers. Failing to meet their ideal numbers, the people in charge of hiring will reduce the requirements, even for life-and-death jobs, like firefighting.

6:17 PM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger Keith Kannenberg said...

Of course, there is such a thing as positive discrimination. It's when distinctions are made based on merit.

This stuff? Not so much.

6:33 PM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger drunk said...

Very discouraging for white males, indeed. Why bother applying when we'll just be "deselected" in the name of "promoting ethnic diversity?"

8:28 PM, March 17, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

so you get men, unable to work because they are discriminated against, some wives say they are lazy, because they are not selected for jobs, and then they cant afford to move out of their parents home, because no job, because they are male, and some women say men are like little boys staying with mum and dad.

and since there is nothing to do, they drink, smoke, the only pleasures left and even those are being eroded. Until men have nothing left.

Why are more men homeless than women? why are white males more homeless than women?

it sucks being male, why do millions of men worldwide vanish, over 250,000 in the UK alone. theres no trace of them, at all.

Theres not much point in being a white male, and all this thing will do is make men, more and more disillusioned, and they will give up.

Whats the point of being male anymore, might as well go for a "walk" in the woods and vanish, at least if a man is married, his wife may get some money when he is declared dead. This is what feminism is trying to do. Then you get commentators, saying its all mens fault. we do nothing we are screwed, we don something we are called sexist, denying women and ethnic groups jobs.

we should be in a meritocracy. best person for the job. but its a gynocracy. But i still see that one day there will be a revolution and it will be terrible.

4:43 AM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger jay c said...

"...Harman's plans are likely to upset MPs who believe that merit alone should determine who is hired."

Employers alone should determine who is hired. Anyone should be able to hire anyone they want for any reason they like. If someone wants to hire the absolute worst person available, that's their business. If they want to hire a black woman, just because she's a black woman, then so be it. The same goes for someone who wants to hire a white man. Your prejudices should be nobody else's business.

2:25 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger jay c said...

Lovemelikeareptile wrote, "Confronted with the cruel reality of life without men, they will beg us to return and bring our culture and inventions back."

The decline and fall:

Isa 3:6-7 When a man shall take hold of his brother of the house of his father, saying, Thou hast clothing, be thou our ruler, and let this ruin be under thy hand: In that day shall he swear, saying, I will not be an healer; for in my house is neither bread nor clothing: make me not a ruler of the people.

Isa 3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

Isa 3:24-25 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty. Thy men shall fall by the sword, and thy mighty in the war.

Repentance and restoration:

Isa 4:1-4 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach. In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem: When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

2:32 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

I know what you mean by all that, J. But I'm warning (and pre-empting) that the last passage there is going to cause no end of misapprehension and caterwauling.

2:51 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger jay c said...

Been there, heard the caterwauling. There's lots there for feminists (including the majority of Christians who say they aren't feminists) to yell about, but my favorite is 4:1. "Gasp! That can't possibly mean what you make it sound like!"

3:30 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger Serket said...

I remember reading something and it might have been a comment on an earlier post. The person said they don't care who the firefighter is as long as they are strong enough to get you out of the building.

mercurior: Back in October, the same brigade demoted a fire crew who shone their torches at four men they found having sex in bushes.

Was it a homosexual orgy?

Val: The primary reason feminists have succeeded in characterizing themselves as minority victims is their alliance with racial and ethnic minorities

I was taking a college sociology class back in 2002 or 2003 and I remember the professor asking if women should be considered minorities. I said no way, there are probably more women in the world than men.

5:02 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger FGFM said...

Government big enough to supply everything you need is big enough to take everything you have ...

Including your slaves.

5:58 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger FGFM said...

Sounds like Helen's kind of town...

In less than one month, five racial slurs have been broadcast over fire department radio frequencies, prompting new investigations into the department's perceived lack of diversity and history of racist allegations. An underground Web site that critics said promotes an internal dialogue of racism was also discovered Thursday. On Friday, the message board section was apparently shut down....

The recent spate of incidents underscores the pervasive racial problems in the 4,900-member department, which Ald. Ed Smith (8th) said is a "good old boys network." He added that little has changed since the organization's turbulent years in the 1990's, when an independent report concluded that "racial polarization" was one of the department's biggest problems....

The tape showed about 20 white firefighters at a retirement party at a South Side firehouse. Most were drunk, and some jokingly shouted racial epithets at each other. Others mooned the camera.

Aldermen on Wednesday reminded Joyce of that tape. They also reminded him that James McNally, who in the late 1980s showed up at a firehouse in blackface to protest the department's affirmative action policies, was also on the tape and is now president of the firefighters union.

6:01 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger FGFM said...

Yes-- the Brits have never recovered from losing the Empire and are now posed perilously on the verge of sinking into feminist-induced anarchy, with the Queen adopting a lesbian lover and Prince Charles dumping Priscilla for the transgendered, softball-playing, flannel shirt-clad Head of Women's Studies at the University of London. I hear a national Sappho Festival is in the offing also.

You continue to sound like a lunatic.

6:03 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

yes serket,

Firemen who shone their torches at four men they found having sex in bushes have been disciplined by their bosses.

The crew spotted the men engaged in illegal 'dogging' - outdoor sexual activity with strangers - on parkland known as the Downs in Bristol late one night.

After embarrassing the men by pointing their torches at them, the crew continued on their way to their fire station.

But one of the 'doggers' complained to Avon Fire and Rescue, ultimately accusing the four-man crew of being homophobic.

The firemen, who have 26 years of service between them, were then suspended on full pay for three months during an internal investigation.

Yesterday it emerged that two have been fined £1,000 each, another demoted to a rank which will see him forfeit a similar amount of money, while a fourth has received a stern written warning.

6:59 PM, March 18, 2008  
Blogger lovemelikeareptile said...

Back from his Klinefelter's Support Group meeting,

You never replied and gave your theory of individual and group differences and the empirical bases for that theory... You said you were not an environmental determinist ,so...

Nor have you given your theory of Iq and IQ testing, such that the tests are biased and invalid.

Calling people "crackpots" and "lunatics" isn't helpful , unless you support those claims with some evidence.

I did write Priscilla when I meant Camilla, however.

4:54 AM, March 19, 2008  
Blogger lovemelikeareptile said...

Men will never unite and fight back.
It will never happen.

The only hope might have been that the feminist monsters will die out.. thats what happened to overt racism-- and thats the way most scientific and cultural changes occur-- somehow, a new ideology is introduced and the devotees of the old finally die off...

But anti-male attitudes and practices are almost universal among women now. What once was considered radical "man-hating" is now just "girl talk"...
as Zelda showed us.
Zelda was no radical-- just an ordinary woman who thinks bashing men is no big deal and only "fanatics" are concerned about it. Can there be any better proof that anti-male bigotry is so common and acceptable that the routine bashing of male "loved ones" doesn't count as anything but "impolite"-- and this from a normal, avowedly non-feminist woman.

So the cancer of feminism still spreads and the condition of Western culture is.. terminal.

There will never be a masculine revolution.

I see no way to end women's hatred of men and stop them from criminalizing breathing while male.

Men think it cannot possibly get worse-- and it always does.

There is no rational or moral limit on female selfishness. There is no sense of honor or Justice or Fairness or nobility in most women. That is the wisdom-- or at least the record-- of men for recorded history-- where they all "sexist" ?
So obviously, the vote was denied to women and the idea of women serving on juries was ludicrous. And most women agreed with these-- women organized to fight giving women the vote !

The only way to stop women is -- to implement an undemocratic society-- by limiting the civil rights of women. Deny them the vote and remove them from jury duty and keep them from any position of exercising public power over others.

Alas-- it seems to save our society-- we, men, would have to destroy its foundation by discrimantory practices against women.

So we will sink into the abyss.
It will continue to get worse.

Soon women will add to their " I had an Abortion" T-shirtS, one that says
" I killed my husband."

5:24 AM, March 19, 2008  
Blogger JH Bassist said...

No. There's no such thing as positive discrimination.

Next subject?

1:49 PM, March 19, 2008  
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