Thursday, February 21, 2008

Ask Dr. Helen: Is Male Bashing Curable?

My PJM column is up:

“We’re tired of the way the media portrays us as either abusive, career-driven, slovenly, or one of the myriad of other male stereotypes,” one married man complains to Dr. Helen Smith. She sympathizes.

Okay, that is the PJM editor's interpretation. I don't sympathize, I say, mobilize and do something constructive. Others may disagree and just ignore negative male stereotypes. Go read the column and tell me what you think.

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Blogger Cham said...

One of the ugliest period of our current culture was during the heyday of the TV show "Home Improvement". The show was lauded as family entertainment and the lead character was supposedly a loving caring family man. But whenever something would go wrong for Tim Taylor he'd simply scream, "Ar-Ar-Ar, I'm a man", then crack a joke that wasn't funny and leave. His TV family would laugh with glee at his many antics. I was more than happy to switch the channel but an entire generation of boys were taught that when you did something wrong you simply said, "That's because I'm a man" and then walk away. Undoing has proven to be impossible.

The ripple of Home Improvement still exists today. We see it in King of Queens, Family Guy, King of the Hill, Still Standing, Grounded for Life and many other shows where there is a white middleclass family. If the family is black or latino the father gets to have a brain.

The Tim Taylor affect spilled over to the advertising industry. On TV we learn white men can't manage simple tax software, they buy vehicles solely based on the largeness of the engine and they sure as heck can't walk 10 feet to the medicine cabinet to get the cough syrup. Yet, in real life we know better.

Helen makes a good point. For God sake's guys, quit sucking it up. Do something, say something, put up a fight on this. Saying nothing is losing you the battle. Please don't wait around and expect women to fight your battle for you because that isn't going to happen. If this was happening to my gender (and it did, those ads and programs circa 1950 and 60 were pretty awful) I'd be screaming bloody murder.

Women control 80% of the family spending which is why the advertising and entertainment industry would never dare insult women. Perhaps one easy way to change this is for men to start buying the toilet paper for the household. Money talks.

7:55 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger dienw said...

There are subtle way women abuse and manipulate; and, calling them on it will be considered abuse. Yet, at some point, the only alternative is to fade as man: to become the male to the female Grouper (the male is absorbed into the side of the female to become an unidentifiable bump), which is unacceptable. I have seen such a thing an it is horrible to behold: a more talented male artist became such to his lesser talented wife. Unfortunately, she attempts to subject all the males around her: I finally had to call her on it at a meeting when she got out of hand.

8:08 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...


I remember in the 80's when I was in college I would see laundry commercials with women doing the laundry and wondered aloud to my roommate why men were never in the commercials doing laundry or any kind of housework. My roommate got indignant and said, "You always expect things to change, they won't, you're dreaming."

And yet, here we are in 2008 with many Tide commercials showing guys doing laundry, okay, badly and usually with a smiling woman showing him what to do, but times have changed. What changed the culture was a change in mindset brought about by women persuading and organizing to stop the behavior. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.


I think that part of the problem is that men have been brought up to believe that any disagreement with a woman is abuse and the culture says it is. Chivalry lives on,yet the culture simultaneously encourages men to be chivalrous and women to view themselves as victims who cannot stand up to any criticism whatsoever. How do we change this?

As women come more and more into power, they must learn to accept criticism--for it is part of being in power. And men must stop being afraid to say anything negative or critical to women just because of their gender. This does not mean that men have to become rude or derogatory--just the oppostite. Treating someone as an equal means telling them when they are doing things that are wrong, hurtful or bad for society.

8:19 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

I was thinking about "Home Improvement" this morning too. Who made that show popular? I saw lots of guys watching it, enjoying it.

In the world of children's picture books, there is a popular series called "The Berenstain Bears." They are usually lauded as good books that impart values to kid. But the dad is always portrayed as either a doofus or a tyrant. Oh, it all comes right in the end, when mom steps in and takes over. But the she is the hero, not dad. They are just evil books. Why can't both parents be smart and save the day? My women friends with kids did not allow them in their houses either.

So I see the media stereotype of the doofus or tyrannical man, but I don't see it in real life so much. In my circles, women treat their husbands with respect and raise their children that way. The men, of course, act in ways that deserve respect.

We don't watch much tv, but we'd never watch something that portrayed men that way. Same with the books we read.

It starts in the home, when boys and girls are learning these things. But if Dad is home watching "Home Improvement" (sorry I don't have a more current example) with his kids, guffawing at Tim's antics, well....

8:19 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

I don't know why women engage in "male bashing" -- is it that they see men as dominant and think it's the woman's right to knock us down? Do they think it's just being "humorous"? And I don't see why women look at men as "all alike" that justifies unfair gender stereotyping -- lumping the vast majority of good men in with the few who do bad things.

But I agree with Dr. Helen: we need to call people on the de rigueur male bashing. For example, “politically correct” TV ads are legion where men, especially fathers and husbands, are depicted as addle-brained losers, buffoons and temperamental children, usually in "humorous," stark contrast to their well-adjusted, saintly, brilliant wives who can scarcely hide their disgust over their goofy man’s often-destructive shenanigans.

I am reasonably certain that the advertisers wouldn’t allow these ads to be run with the genders reversed, which is sufficient reason not to run them at all.

What do you think this constant barrage of misandry in advertisements, in everyday speech, is telling our sons? That they were born into a flawed gender, obviously, and that they, personally, are flawed -- just because they are male.

We need to call people on the misandry. Unfair gender stereotyping is nothing more than a form of prejudice, which everyone would agree is immoral. For one thing, we need to let advertisers know that they can more effectively sell their products without bashing almost half the population just to garner a cheap laugh. And, we need to remind people when they make generalized negative statements about an entire gender that NO other class of persons would sit still to be stereotyped in such a manner, because hateful prejudice is immoral.

Let them ridicule me as a white male whiner. Tough. Lots of men are "on to" their hate, and I don't care if I incur their displeasure by pointing it out.

8:57 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

An additional comment. In our culture, women are never supposed to cause verbal confrontation and openly address grievances. As the above poster suggests, women are just supposed to stand around acting well-adjusted, saintly and brilliant. So when someone calls them on their bad behavior the advertising industry thinks it is ideal and positive to allow women to act in an evil, manipulative passive aggressive manner. Please note, the protagonist, Felicia, in this ad is a hip pretty young lady who's destructive behavior is viewed as heroic. Felecia never verbally addresses the grievance of the older blond woman, Felicia chooses to secretly ruin the blond's laundry because the blond had the nerve(acting against cultural norms) to verbally confront Felicia about her space usage.

9:15 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Paul McKay said...

I think that part of the problem is that men have been brought up to believe that any disagreement with a woman is abuse and the culture says it is.

Look at any of the majority "domestic violence" programs employing the Duluth Model and you'll see just that. Anything other than succumbing to her every demand is abuse. Real partnership, give and take, is violence. And if she's violent? It's not violence, it's self defense. In other words, you asked for it, buddy.

Supposedly, we were once working to eliminate that sort of thinking. Instead, we've just turned it on its head.

9:25 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

By the way, every man who is not happy with the male bashing needs to print out Dr. Helen's column and refer to it often. It is extremely well-reasoned. Frankly, there is no other sane solution to the nonsense aside from standing your ground.

9:34 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

"That's because I'm a man" and then walk away. Undoing has proven to be impossible.

The ripple of Home Improvement still exists today. We see it in King of Queens, Family Guy, King of the Hill, Still Standing, Grounded for Life and many other shows where there is a white middleclass family. If the family is black or latino the father gets to have a brain.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that society is now starting to acknowledge that "walking away" from the family is detrimental to black and Latino families. Stastics are showing that having the father in the home correlates to success rates in general -- that it's the children who often pay the price when Daddy leaves (is forced to leave?) the family home.

In professional white families, I don't think there's this acknowledgement... yet. So long as he pays the money for child support, and visits every other weekend or pays for summertime spent with his boys and girls, presumably the mother "makes up" for his absence. Not true even in professional white families, I would say. The kids may not be in as much obvious "trouble" in society (ie/before courts and in jails), but plenty of them have issues of their own.

I still maintain for those who complain of the schools' treatment of boys, we should look closer at how many have a father present in the family. "Role model" male teacher are needed so much if the family is doing its job at home, and not expecting the schools to take up this task. Ditto with boys who exercise and get outside with their Dad's on the weekends and after school.

Sure we can work to make schooltime more appealing to the male gender, but at some level they will have to sit still, and be disciplined and concentrate for short periods at least. For years and years in public schools, and in private and parochial schools still today, plenty of boys have this classroom discipline. It's the ones spending all their out of class time with Mom and neighborhood women -- some even funtioning as Mom's "man of the family" -- who are being robbed, I think.

And to me, it all begins in the "I'm a man/walking away" (or being pushed out of the family home, by the domineering woman.) We're starting to "get it" in black and minority communities; not so much in professional white families just yet. Plenty of things money can't buy, like a present biological father in one's life...

10:06 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

Mary, beautifully said. Thank you for saying it. The father is not superfluous. The most "male-friendly" environment in the schools won't make up for a fatherless home.

10:11 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

I'm with the Judge. And Cham, who hit on it exactly: all this "man up and take it" crap is just that - crap. Big, wallowing pastures of it. The assumption (repeated by some commenters over at the PJM article) seems to be that there are no choices other than pathetic whining or being a doormat. A (real, non-castrated) man does not take abuse for no reason, and will fight for himself almost as readily as for his country or family.

As for "taking it like a man," it has begun to sound too much like taking it the wrong way sans KY.

10:40 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

You welcome, judge.

And that said, I think that families where the father tragically dies young, or is off working for an extended period of time (serving overseas, OTR truck driving, etc.) are not necessarily "doomed".

I think it's the mindset passed on from some of these professional "divorces" that let's children think intact families/fathers are disposable.

With a solid mindset, and support from grandfathers/uncles/close male friends, widowed women and those sacrificing based on the nature of work can still be very strong places to raise sons.

It's when the men leave the family via divorce, or impregnate and run, that the message sent is "He's not necessary." Plenty of children with deceased father still make out ok because that message has never been sent -- said or unsaid.

How about less social support and federal programs/funds for these voluntarily "single" women and their children, and perhaps even a higher degree of social stigma for such women. I'm not saying blame the kids (they'll have enough issues as it is), but for heaven's sake let's stop with some of the hero-worship for voluntarily single mothers -- many of whom then elect to bring more and more new lives into the mix.

The working families are the ones that then suffer, imo, making it harder economically for them to get ahead, as they are subsidizing the special "schools as daycare" programs, and their sons and daughters are getting worse educations because the boys of divorced professional women often act out their issues in class.

If you marry, make it for life or don't do it! Research your life partner before you invest, so no little surprises you can't live with pop up later. If you have a child, stick out it in the two-parent home, at least until the child is 18 and out of the house!

No amount of special programs or federal funds can replace that. And I do understand emergencies arise, that make divorce necessary for some. But again, if you know what you're getting into before you marry, these divorces of convenience should be called just that.

And we should distinguish between fatherless children where the dad has died young leaving the family, vs. those who have indirectly been told that their father's presence is no longer needed in the home. That message -- and the accompanying meme that these divorced "single" women are somehow being courageous or doing good in society playing Mom and Dad -- surely has run its course? Never should have been given society's admiration in the first place, as it just serves as encouragement to that type of woman.

Widowed mothers or fathers playing a dual role -- yes! Admirable. (But in my observation, many of these often choose to remarry, understanding that a good stepparent is in the best interests of both the existing children, and the family.)

Maybe we need more social judging (like in the old days), and less federal funding? (And just because the professional women might say -- I choose this way, and I can pay for it myself with no help from you... that's not really true. For reasons mentioned above, especially visible in education but surely affecting many other parts of society, it is other intact families, men women and children, who pay to pick up the slack from your supposed "independence" and disposable choices.

10:44 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

Pereg. John:

Still, the "man up" language still has its place, imo. Like when your son whines that the teacher made him sit down, and keep quiet when she was teaching fractions, say:

"Yes son, in school, you must respect the teacher. And there are times you must learn to listen, and keep quiet, and be self disciplined and not disrupt. If there's a big problem overall and it happens everday, come and tell me and your mother and we can look into it. But in school, your role right now is to respect that teacher's authority, for the good of the whole class and your individual education. Me and your Mom will look out for you overall if she/he is doing their job poorly, but right now son, that's not your role. That's what your father and mother are here for..."

"Being a man means learning when to follow rules. So thanks for brining your trouble today to my attention, we'll keep an eye on it, and call for a conference if necessary. But you, little one, "man up" and know your role right now. You're the student, and that teacher right now is the authority in the classroom -- like her or not."

Does that make sense, P.John? And can you see where it would be more effective than letting one "I know better!" boy who is used to being the man of the house at home from acting that way in the classroom as well? See, without that understanding, that's why more and more families are choosing to homeschool -- because some kids unfortunately are encouraged in the wrong ways.

10:52 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger BobH said...

To Cham:

"In our culture, women are never supposed to cause verbal confrontation and openly address grievances. As the above poster suggests, women are just supposed to stand around acting well-adjusted, saintly and brilliant."

You are joking, blind or stupid. Few of the women that I know think that way. Most of them act like spoiled brats, while simultaneously denying their self-righteous hypocrisy and demanding that men accept them "unconditionally". This female behavior is considered entirely acceptable in the American feminazi police state.

In answer to the original question: No, male bashing cannot be cured.

10:55 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

Mary, you've said it so brilliantly.

If one needs evidence of what happens when fathers are deemed disposable (as opposed to situations where the father departs by death or due to job responsibilities), look to the inner city. In many inner cities, fatherless households total 70% -- compared to the 1940s when it was about 1/8 that. Crime and dropping for the boys and promiscuity for the girls are rampant. Not so in the '40s. So when the radical gender feminists say fathers are superfluous, we have objectively verifiable proof, Exhibit "A" -- the inner city -- to disprove them.

11:05 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

Bobh: You just agreed with what I said. Go back and reread my post. You say:

Most of them act like spoiled brats, while simultaneously denying their self-righteous hypocrisy and demanding that men accept them "unconditionally".

In essence, in advertising and programming women get to do whatever they want to do and their actions are never questioned and accepted unconditionally, not just by men but by everyone. Cheetos girl ruins the laundry, Turbo Tax wife berates her husband, Cary tells Doug what he can and cannot do, and nobody puts up a fight.

11:06 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

mary: True. But respecting authority is not remotely the same as blind acceptance of abuse. Easily confused, those two, since they look so much alike, even with opposite mindsets.

It's kind of funny, really, how often that happens. False dichotomies and the reverse of predicted effects, I mean. To go with the example, so many have the notion that homeschooling will deprive a child of the ability to react appropriately, indeed, to be "disempowered" (is that really a word?); and yet, homeschooled kids are generally both confident in their abilities/worth and respectful of authority. As are Marines, come to think of it.

11:23 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

The problem is, too many women (and men?) have convinced their sons that sitting down in the classroom and keeping quiet so the lesson can proceed is "abuse".

If you've got a problem with the curriculum, the teacher, or the way the material is being presented, that is for the parents to take up. Not by "empowering" the individual boy in class to challenge the female teacher directly.

You really do your sons a disservice (not to mention all the other kids in class who get their physical "jump-around" needs/male rolemodeling needs met OUTSIDE of the classroom) to let them pick up on these attitudes.

To go with the example, so many have the notion that homeschooling will deprive a child of the ability to react appropriately

I think you may have misread me. I believe many are very much doing the right thing by their child in homeschooling, as the public schools today are often overrun by children/single parents (by choice) who are expecting the schools to provide "extra" programs (like morning meals, afterschool care, etc).

If there's no way in making little Johnny understand that he can't just take the class off track objecting when he doesn't feel like respecting classroom authority, everyone's child suffers.

And if there are legitimate authority/curriculum complaints, that should not be dealt with by little Johnny on classroom time. And if someone is trying to drug little Johnny to get him to go along -- rather than considering enrolling him in a parochial school, say, where he would learn classroom discipline in a more effective way -- then of course the parent should not buy into that, but pull him out of that kind of environment if necessary.

The problem I see, is that too many take what are legitimate complaints and turn them into "I hate ALL women because I'm divorced (sometimes multiple times)" and "my kid doesn't have to turn in assignments and should be free to challenge the teacher in class".

These people should "man up", teach their child to "know your role", and respect that there are often other children in the class who ARE their to learn subjects, not get their social needs met.

11:38 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

So when the radical gender feminists say fathers are superfluous, we have objectively verifiable proof, Exhibit "A" -- the inner city -- to disprove them.

Plus, this kind of thing is going on in affluent suburbs too. It might not be as acknowledged, because the kids are still well fed and advancing on to colleges, but plenty of the boys of professional affluent women have their own family "issues" too (would you want to function as your mother's "man" when your father is absent? What do you think this does to a young man -- and society by extension -- in the long run?)

11:41 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Mark said...

Male bashing in TV is so rampant, my sons and I do "stupid guy commercial" watches. If you watch closely, every single commercial shows the guy doing it a side note, when the guy does something really stupid and has to be saved/corrected by the woman, 90% of the time its a white guy.

For example, the commercial for HR-Block with the dumb white guy who purchased the tax software and now is stuck. His wife nonverbally calls him an idiot and even tells him to ask the box for help, so the guy says "help" to the cardboard box.

Its pervasive, the guy is always the screwup and the woman always has the right answer. I make sure my sons realize and tag it as such, in an attempt to bring it out in the open.

11:43 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

Radical gender feminists say this, radical gender feminists say that. Will just one of you commenters cite a source, link, or anything to back your accusations up, this gets old. Who exactly says that fathers are superfluous.

11:45 AM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

"homeschooled kids are generally both confident in their abilities/worth and respectful of authority."

How many homeschooled kids do you think live in fatherless-by-choice families? How many homeschooled kids do you think are spending hours in front of the tv daily, developing their attitudes via doofus-dad sitcoms and commercials?

12:07 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

This "gets old"? You haven't been paying attention these past few years.

An example:

And you are, I am sure, aware of N.O.W.'s opposition to shared parenting, I am sure?

12:15 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

By the way, for those who don't bother to paste in the link, the article I just referenced is from the Times Online (London) -- "Of course children don't need fathers (-- What women miss most is the man-sized salary, not the hunter-gatherer himself)"


12:17 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

the link doesn't work.

12:22 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

"Of course children don't need fathers"

12:36 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

Helen, (and everyone else who has posted so thoughfully!) I think part of the problem lies in male strength. Most of us are good about knowing (or think we know) when to ignore. Sticks and stones ya know. Is the stigma stupid sexism? You bet! Does it hurt us, not like paying exhorbitant taxes does!

On the positive side, we are pluggers and can keep going despite the relational disruptions caused by people who are jerks. We are less likely to stew about relational problems.

On the negative side, I hear and accept your complaint about the damage the attitude does to our culture. It is poisonous in the same was that racism is poisonous. It hurts America, it hurts everyone. Yet, at the same time, a part of me is willing to let it poison the people who spread it!

I think that some of this "who cares" attitude on my part is defensive in the same way that I used to pretend to not be hurt when someone knocked the fool out of me in football. Looking tough has survival benefits! But now, that kind of stuff offends me without hurting me.

It is not lost on me that you as a woman are more in tune with the community harm that the misandry causes than I am. Women are great that way!


1:09 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

Trey, most men don't want to think of themselves as victims, and we're not. But we need to think about our sons.

Everybody accepts, I think, that media does great harm to girls in portraying women. The image of the ideal women that the media peddles (including disproportionately oversized breasts, thin wastes and long necks) have created self-image disorders in American girls across every demographic.

Why is it so difficult for advertisers to realize that constantly portraying men as idiots might also have an effect on boys? Why is THAT such a stretch?

I don't consider myself a victim at all, but I am not hesitant to call out any whiff of unfair gender stereotyping, whether it be against a male or female. I am more attuned to the male perspective only because I am one.

1:29 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Jeff Y said...

Everyone gets all pissy with me when I say, but I'll say it again anyway.

Men are to blame for this.

Men today are pussies. They won't stand up to women who say stupid shit. They spend all their time saying "Yes ma'aam, that insult is so true, may I have another?" because they want get laid. Others think romance is supposed to be an endless stream of "yes" coming from their mouths.

Men lay down and roll over for women. Why be surprised when women step on them? Give me a break.

1:56 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Serket said...

Helen: It depends on your personality. I am not the kind of person who can sit back when I hear toxic comments.

I'm glad you mentioned this. You have said before that you are an introvert and so am I. There seems to be a perception that introverts just sit back and take things, but there is only so much garbage you can take before you have to do something about it!

My mom said her favorite TV husband is on Medium. I don't watch the show much, but the guy is a physicist and the show is a drama.

2:57 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Unknown said...

Have you seen ads portraying a male (generally Caucasian) as lazy, bumbling, uncoordinated, and/or dim-witted? Fight this subtle form of male-bashing by refusing to support the products and companies the ads represent, and email them about your personal boycott.

3:08 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Val McMurdie said...

"Male bashing" is a feminine term for a cultural set of values destructive to millions of individual men, and civil society.

"Male bashing"is preventing the development of boys into constructive contributing male members of civil society. "Male bashing" has destroyed marriages and families. It has alienated millions of well educated men who otherwise would feel an obligation to contribute to civil institutions like education, government, marriage, and families.

I have three adult daughters. I have advised them, in the near future they will carry the economic and tax burden of states and the federal government; manage business; they will be responsible for success or failure in managing the professions, like medicine, law, education, and government. It will be primarily women who will carry all these burdens of civil society. In addition, some will desire to wives and mothers as an additional burden.

By the time women collectively realize what has occurred, large percentages of all men, millions and millions, in every age group from teenage males, to young adults, and senior men, will be angry, alienated, and withdrawn from women.

Men in our society did in fact create the vast wealth and freedoms the US has enjoyed, and has enjoyed since 1920. This is past tense, as women will discover within the next few years.

There never was, and never will be, a "men's movement".

What men are witnessing is the rise of an Amazon society. Amazons kept men in captivity (the US has more captive men than any country in the world); polyandry prevailed, as it does serially with women today; Amazons whipped men; women owned all wealth; and men refused to defend women, consequently women became warriors.

Amazon societies did not make the cut to civilization. The men's movement occurred some time ago, it is called "civilization".

My doctor, my dentist, and I, all men over 55, agree "let it burn". Let civil society burn. There are millions of senior men who agree. Civil society is gradually decaying.

When states like California and Michigan are bankrupt, cities and governmental institutions are non-functional; civil services are not being delivered, and the federal government is bankrupt, and there is violence in the streets, then, maybe, women will realize the terrible errors they, and their he-she male followers, have made.

The statistical trends are already clear.

Women can call it "male bashing". It is not cute. It is another term in a set of feminine values destructive to your daughters, sons and civil society.

Collectively women may end up paying a very heavy price for engaging in what women have been doing for at least 60,000 years, blaming men, "male bashing" for anything and everything women perceive they don't get from men.

The 19th Amendment to the Constitution is something new in human history. In 1920 the US was the second country in human history to grant women the right to vote. Some of you may think this is a joke, but men giving women by voting themselves the right to vote may have been a serious error for the US.

When San Diego is being looted and burned twenty years from now (as you saw in New Orleans during Katrina); Fresno is being abandoned, and Detroit is in chaos as police and firemen abandon their jobs, then maybe there will be a realization that feminist values being promoted since the 1960 are a failure.

California and Michigan where feminist values are a cornerstone of government policy are not far from ungovernable now.

Already millions of men are disconnected, withdrawn, and angry.

Women are not going to stop "male bashing". After all, women have been "male bashing" for at least three thousand generations.

Collectively women see no danger at all in there being 60 million+- single disconnected, withdrawn or openly angry men.

No alarm bells are going off with women. Women collectively are new to at responsible for civilization, 90 years is a very short time in human history. Women seem to have no concept of history or how they got where women are today. It is a Brave New Woman's World.

My answer to the inquiry of the young married man is that he has no male leaders; no connection to male society; there is no longer a hierarchy of male peer groups he can look to for leadership and guidance.

My advice to the young man is to seek out educated male seniors for advice, direction and leadership.

My advice to young men everywhere has been to seek out doctors, dentists, lawyers, engineers and other educated men over 55 years old for counsel on what men should be, and what to do. He should seek out friendships with other men within his peer group on what should be done regarding a society that evidences hatred of men.

My advice to him is to withdraw from women at every opportunity, as millions of other men are doing, disconnect from women, and connect with men.

If present statistical trends continue government, the economy, education, criminal justice, security, infrastructure like transportation and utilities, etc. will be in ruin in many parts of the US within 20 years.

With the violence and chaos a reform assessment will collectively be made of responsibility and cause. That will be the time for basic reform.

It is obvious today the US is gender divided. It will be even more gender divided by 2028. There will be many educated men who will connect the dots of responsibility and cause to feminism. The cause of failure will be traceable back to values of the 1960s, and before that back to the basic mistake made in 1920 in giving women the right to vote under the 19th Amendment.

Women collectively have not proven to be responsible or capable of maintaining civil society.

Men will then have the opportunity at that time to bring about reforms.

If it comes to chaos and civil disorder, and a clear majority of men are of like mind, the "reforms" can occur rapidly.

Men should vote again then, but this time to repeal the 19th Amendment to the Constitution.

If women want to take up arms to defend their right to vote, they're welcome too.

Women can laugh. But millions of men are beginning to take this seriously... today.

Women need to be talking among themselves not about "male bashing" but where the Brave New World of Women is leading statistically in terms of fundamental institutions of civilization.

Instead of courses in women's studies, universities should be offering courses like Civilization 101: the fundamentals of civil society and basic requirements of civilization. Anthropology 101 is another course offering: gangs, gang banging, bands, tribes, the long-house, polyandry, crime, violence, and customs pre-dating civilization. In Anthropology 101 women would be able to read about "what women want". What women want is not something new. Women have wanted much the same things for thousands of years. Pickup any good textbook on "herders". Any woman will soon read a very contemporary account of "what women want". Women can read about "Amazons".

Welcome to the emerging Amazon Society.

Tags: Amazons, male bashing, civilization

3:09 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Jeff Y said...

val, no offense, but that post is too long. Get your own blog and provide links next time.

3:54 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

Reading these comments, isnt it great that, a lot of people blame the men for not speaking up. its a mans fault no matter what he does. If he speaks up he is a pig, or sexist, if he doesnt he is a wimp. and both of those in womens eyes are equally bad.

The reason why men dont speak up is 40 years of being told their comments are worthless, 40 years of being told they are wimps for not speaking out, 40 years of being told if they do speak up they are sexist pigs.

there will come a point when men will rebel, more than just with words, but with violence. Even here where men are heard and listened too, by dr helen, (who knows men). There are a lot of women or faux women who blame men for everything they do or dont do.

Men arent wimps we just know that if we dare say anything, we get labeled, we even get arrested on occasions for speaking out. no wonder men are afraid to.

of course people will say men should grow a pair, or they are wimps for not speaking out. BUT its NOT so easy to speak out.

Male bashing will only stop, when women realise that men have a breaking point. and that day will be soon enough even with the pro woman anti male education, entertainment.

4:35 PM, February 21, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow Val. I really wanna party with you!

And you know what really cheeses me off? That commercial where the hot chick uses her hot boyfriend's razor to shave her legs, then the scientists invent this ultra-cool new razor for the hot chick to use, and then she's got the razor, and the hot boyfriend's kinda looking at the razor and the hot chick comes up and snatches it from his hand and says "Don't even think about it."

What is UP with that, huh?

5:06 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Memphis said...

I never watched "Home Improvement" until I got married. She was a fan. I quickly became a fan of Debbie Dunning, who played Heidi, but aside from that I found the show to be incredibly sexist. It wasn't the constant portrayal of Tim as a bungling monkey so much as his wife's constant quoting of Andrea Dworkin, whom she referred to as "a great philosopher". She also was shown shoving feminism down her sons throats, talking about teaching them to "respect women" while the entire show disrespected men. There was no balance. Tim's character was a stereotype from his stand-up routine, but the show turned it into something harmful. And it wasn't necessary. I see in all his movies since that he hasn't changed. His only joke is to get hit in the groin, the mark of a comedian who is out of ideas.

As for what you said, to stop taking it and start standing up, I think you are right. Men have an innate tendency to shut down and go silent when women attack. But this won't help us at all. We are going to have to fight our own instincts and learn to stand up and make some noise. The biggest problem is that this has been going on for so long that most men, and women too, just don't even recognize it for what it is, pure sexism.

5:20 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

and even if we do stand up, we get shouted down, by twice as many women.

or in topics like this, it somehow is always the mans fault. that men are to blame for everything, and it becomes, part of the problem. of course any man who dares speak out, will be called a wimp, or not a real man, even by his fellow man.

5:25 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

Mercurior, another reason men don't speak up is because feminists and quasi-feminists pounce us, "Oh, poor whining white menz! Doesn't like not ruling the world any more!" I've been on the receiving end of it.

Here's how I handle it: I never ruled the world and I don't feel guilty about anyone's purported past oppression since I had nothing to do with it; by the same token, I don't consider myself a "victim," either. But regardless, I don't need to put up with your double-standards and unfair stereotyping. Most important, I'm not going to have my son subjected to your male bashing that'll make him think he's inferior just because he's male. Do it to your own son if you're that heartless, but I'm going to shout it from the rooftops: stop belittling maleness if it's within my son's earshot.

5:30 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

yes exactly, damned if we do damned if we dont.

i have been on that too, but i am simply bloody minded enough to carry on. a few months ago there was a woman who called me a lady boy, for arguing this same point.

it is very hard to carry on defending yourself when you dont have anything to defend(But if you dont defend yourself your a wimp and not a real man), over the years it wears me down. and sometimes i want to say oh look woman, i cant be bothered with this any more. so do what the hell you want and leave me the hell alone.

but then i read dr helen and my strength is renewed and i am back. the demeaning constructs like be a real man, dont be a whiner, are all there to make men feel at fault for nothing they do.

5:39 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Val McMurdie said...


You're right. The post was too long. And, yes, I will get my own blog and provide the links. Thanks.

5:42 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Val McMurdie said...

Glenn Kenny:

What is up with the hot chick who tells her boyfriend "don't even think about it" when he wants his razor back?

The hot chick is just letting her Amazon out. It is the Laura Croft in her. Married women in suburbia call this letting the "Bitch" out.

5:50 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Georgia said...

Maybe years ago when this was a patriarchal society many of the men abused their authority. As a result of that the feminist movement was created. Today good men are suffering and I believe it is unfair. Whats even worse is that many women especially young women find the bad boys more exciting and the good guys are being left behind.

6:35 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

"Married women in suburbia call this letting the "Bitch" out."

Wow. I am married and as suburban as they get. I have never heard this term. But then I don't hang out with women who indulge in male-bashing.

6:45 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger GawainsGhost said...

Well, I found this column interesting. And I have to say that the Instahusband is blessed indeed, for there aren't very many women out there like the Instawife.

Proverbs 33: "Who can find a good woman? She is precious beyond all things. Her husband's heart trusts her completely. She is his best reward."

Now to answer the question, "Is male bashing curable?" No. It is far too ingrained in contemporary culture and the collective consciousness of modern women.

I can't tell you how many dates I've been on that within 10 minutes of the conversation she has to make some snide comment or denigrating innuendo or derogatory complaint. And it's been that way for the last 35 years, since I started dating.

Is it tiresome? Absolutely. Is it boring? Horribly. Is it insulting? Only if you allow it to be. Do I speak up about it? No. I do what I've always done and will continue to do--stand up, throw $20 on the table and walk out the restaurant. Let her take a cab home, and never have anything to do with that woman ever again.

I am not going to argue with her. I am not going to try to prove that I'm right. I'm not going to try to convince her to change her mind. I'm just going to leave.

I do not care what she says, thinks, wants, believes about anything. None of that has anything to do with what my responsibilities as a man are. I accept those responsibilities without question and do what I have to do.

I do not have to listen to her whine and complain about the sorry excuses for men she's associated with. I certainly do not have to sit there and listen to her condescend to me in her pretense to superiority. And I do not have to explain myself to her.

It's not my job to be a knight. It's not my job to rescue her. It's not my job to be a prince. It's not my job to bail her out of whatever financial mess she placed herself in.

It's my job to be a man, to prepare myself physically, emotionally and financially to be a suitable life-partner, a helpmate and a father. What's her job? Is it not to prepare herself physically, emotionally and financially to be a suitable life-partner, helpmate and a mother?

If she didn't do that, she isn't worth the time of day to me. I don't need the drama, and I'd rather have the money.

She has a problem, an attitude problem, and it's her problem, not mine. I refuse to put up with it. I have too much work to do, too much money to make, too many deals to broker, and too many hearts to break for me to waste one second of my time listening to her bitch about anything. The sooner she figures that out, the better off she'll be.

But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.

6:59 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

"Many of the men abused their authority."

There have always been bad men, there always will be. And women, too. As far as women being oppressed, try telling that to my grandmother and the countless women of the early 20th century who stayed in the safety of home raising children while our grandfathers were literally killing themselves in dangerous mills to provide for them and their kids. Men have always had to be the breadwinners -- because if they weren't women wouldn't marry them, let's be honest (even today, if a guy told his fiance he wants to be a stay-at-home dad, she'd probably dump him). You don't think that was OUR idea to be the breadwinner, do you? Women have always called the shots -- talk about "authority." Please note that long before feminism, single women had the right to own property and to enter into contracts, but guess what? Virtually every woman wanted to get married. And the opponents to feminism in the early days were -- you guessed it, primarily women.

7:05 PM, February 21, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

In the industrial revolution, everyone worked, men, women, and childre, until some do gooders said for children it was good for them to do that, then it was women. limited hours Nothing for the men.

It wasnt that women were forced to do the work they had to, there wasnt a male conspiracy putting women down, it was the choices the woman made.

My great great great grandma, was one of the first female "doctors", she worked with a male doctor, but he was too busy so he said here you go out do some of the work, so she went out and worked and helped with the male doctors nod.

other people in my family, the men were builders/masons, they build half of the mill round here and a lot of the houses, but because you dont do it in winter too cold, they owned pubs, wo while the man was working heavy dangerous jobs their wives ran the pubs.

this was in 1760's. There is a Myth that men have been part of a conspiracy to put women down, and thats passed into "herstory".

does "many men abused their position" give women the right to be as nasty as they are towards men.

4:40 AM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Pauld said...

I guess I am on a different page. I don't really take personally or particularly care about how television, movies and/or commercials portray men. I guess I have never taken the "entertainment" industry that seriously.
In my work environment and in my social networks I don't find "male bashing" to any significant degree. In my circles, men are well-respected
The one area that I am concerned about is the education system that I think is doing some real damage to many young boys.

7:21 AM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

pauld, I agree about the education system. Many schools are finally wising up that there's a problem, so they're trying to adjust the ways they teach boys.

"I don't really take personally or particularly care about how television, movies and/or commercials portray men."

That's how a lot of feminists feel, too. They are the first to bellyache about the way the media portrays women, claiming it is harmful to the self-image of girls across every demographic. Why is it such a stretch for them to understand that the negative ways the media presents MEN might be hurting BOYS' self-image? Why does it seem there are double-standards hovering over every issue with these people?

8:32 AM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

What the media is teaching boys is that it is perfectly okay to disobey rules/laws/guidelines. Hey, you're a big dumb duffuss, right? A guy can't be responsible for his actions. Everything is just a big bunch of fun and games!

Very rarely have I witnessed girls being destructive on public property or on property that wasn't theirs. But little boys are being taught that being a big dolt and doing whatever they want whenever they want is acceptable behavior. Take the male role model out of the house, or put one in that has a similar attitude, and you end up raising a generation of boys that don't get it, won't get it until they are incarcerated, at which point it starts costing all of us a lot of money.

The male duffussness and doltishness screams throughout TV and advertisements. Yes, we all can ignore it, but their is a huge cost for doing so.

9:25 AM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger TMink said...

Cham, that is an interesting take on the situation and I can see how the inadvertent modeling would indeed give that message.

I totally overlooked that aspect and appreciate your pointing it out.


10:02 AM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

The reason men are bashed in popular culture is directly due to the fact that women have no positive role models (just shrieking hags like Mrs. Bill Clinton or venerally diseased whores with tatoos who are so dumbed down they don't know if the world is flat or round) and have no other way to feel good about themselves.

It's so pathetic it makes me want to vomit right now just thinking about it. American women today are so repulsive, I find I'm much happier if I don't think about them or interact with them if I can help it. American women are below fecal matter in actual value; because feces is actually good for something... fertilizer!

11:49 AM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...


"Why is it such a stretch for them (feminists) to understand that the negative ways the media presents MEN might be hurting BOYS' self-image?"

Maybe "feminists" don't care about boys. Plenty of women (mothers, and others) do. But why don't more men seem to care?

Why are men watching these tv shows? Why are they letting their boys watch them? Why aren't men saying "get this stuff off the air?" Why isn't H&R Block getting flooded with letters from angry men saying they won't be buying their products anymore because of the doofus-man commercial? Is it because men have given up? Or because it's too much work to get involved? Or maybe most men think the shows are funny and don't see a problem?

I can understand men giving up if they have no children. What difference does the future make to them? But those who have children should not be supporting media that gives their kids such a view of life, and what it means to be a man.

Some conservative Christians (Doug Wilson of Canon Press, Doug Phillips of Vision Forum to name a couple) have been talking about this loss of masculinity for some time. But they are calling for a return to traditional male/female roles, where the man is the leader, and no one wants to hear about that anymore.

12:07 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

why arent men, saying it.. well easy answer, women control the networks. if a MAN dares say this is sexist, they will told to suck it up by women. i have been told a real man sucks it up and doesnt complain. so we complain we get told to suck it up, we dont complain we get told we are wimps and not real men. Most men have given up there no way to win, so we dont even play the game anymore.

Who pays the advertisers, clue they have 80% of the household income, who pays the tv show makers advertisers.

1:59 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

Re. the ladyboy comment...
Many here have addressed the feminist movement and their attitudes in bringing the value of men down.

What about the homosexual movement, those man who enjoy debasing their masculinity and secretly wish to become women? You see them in the designer shows, the makeover shows, giving tips to women on how they can be better at it. Where is the blame for the ladyboy movement?

You know who literally makes me wretch? I don't watch the show, but you see him in commercials: that KoJo character who has done himself up to look and sound like a woman.

Why are none of you brave enough to say that this feminizing movement of homosexual men, who are all about bodies, skin foundations, hair tips, and fashion also contributes to the lack of value of the manly men? And take a look at how many women absolutely adore! these gay men. Now imagine being a young male whose father has left the family, and whose mother is a "fag hag" for lack of a better word, worshipping at the gay "man" altar. Sometimes I wonder if it indeed would not just be easier on him if she physically castrated her a son in such a situation -- their heads are messed up, and many end up unable to perform their family role and sometimes even harboring a hatred of all women because of what the mother has done to them. That in turn, makes it hard for the girls/women who have been raised with healthy male role models, because you begin to lump all women in with the castrating mother types. Hence the second and third divorces, and the "pity poor me" attitudes of the ... ladyboys, for lack of a better word.

Again, when you take a man away from his sons, it's a big chain of people affected in society, and it's not pretty, no matter how many layers of makeup or how much hair teasing or dressup you do. Couple this with a "protective" attitude toward male homosexuals, and wa-la!, you get plenty of men disgusted by that kind of society who want no part of it and are concent to live in less-populated rural areas that tend to weed out the soft types, male and female.

2:22 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

psst "mercurior"

Your whiny "victim" side is starting to show again. Fight it, man. You're better than falling into that trap. Get away from this blog and go out and hang with the guys for an afternoon? Go take a walk in the woods, build something with your hands, or tinker with your car or something?

Once you start whining and lumping all women into the castrating category, all hope is lost for you. Next thing you know, you're a multiple divorcee, bitter to all females, and angry at the world. Fight it, man!

2:25 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Too funny - at least two women telling men how they should act. Kind of a micro-cosm of the universe at large.

I'll tell ya - about the only thing that "real men" can do is stay the f%#k away from people like you.

And if you are really into "traditional roles" - then I suppose real women don't run their mouth all the time with their opinions. Can't you bake something or make a sandwich?

Offensive? I find you offensive.

2:48 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Tim Murray said...

Marbel, right on.

A couple of comments. I think that this "male bashing" is actually nothing new. The reason it has become an issue in recent years, I think, is because (strangely) feminism has raised our awarness that gender stereotypes are not good. Now unfortunately, the feminism in vogue today has become a woman's lobby that caters to the special interests of certain women (by no means all), and it's no more interested in eradicating gender stereotyping for men than are the Teamsters.

Women, I believe, see themselves more as a "group" far more so than men. And I think women see men as a "group" to some degree. Men, on the other hand, don't think of themselves as a "group" at all. For most men, when we hear a woman talking negatively about "men," most of us think: "Yes, she means thost OTHER men." So women are fighting gender stereotypes -- but only for women. Men largely don't see it as a problem for them because, again, most men don't feel part of a male "group." But the male bashing is is going on, it's just that most people don't see ir or care.

My interest in this issue erupted with Duke lacrosse. A whole bunch of supposedly enlightened people were ready to send three young white guys to prison for thirty years based on nothing more than an unfair steretype. They were white males, young "privileged" jocks. That rush to judgment would never have happened to a woman (that's not to say that other bad things don't happen to women -- they sure do). This was eye-opening to me and a lot of other people who never thought in terms of of white males being unfairly stereotyped. Prof. K.C. Johnson's blog chronicling the case exploded -- mostly male readers, I dare say, who couldn't believe the hatred, the misandry, from Duke faculty and others. So a lot of eyes were opened by that, and we began to see that, yes, unfair gender stereotyping affects us, too. It's certainly not as harmful as racism or the way women are treated in certain third world countries. But it does exist.

2:59 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

Can't you bake something or make a sandwich?

Actually, male or female, sweets aren't good for the body. And sandwiches are pretty poor nutrition in the long-run too (especially with pre-processed deli meats, "enriched" breads, and all that crap that comes with the condiments.)

Best to gut out a heathy deer you've taken down in hunting season, make it up into some jerky or something to snack on throughout the winter. Or learn to use a crockpot making 7-bean soups or chili.

Nothing at all "unmanly" learning to cook properly. Then you won't have to rely on "women's roles" to feed you baked goods and sandwiches jg. And studies show good nutrition = better physical/mental health. Not telling ya, just gently suggesting you get over yourself, hon.

4:52 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

see Mary's comments are the whole point, i complain and its whining a woman who complains well its a sign of her confidence.

this is the whole point, a real man knows about cars, (sexist or what), a real man "Go take a walk in the woods, build something with your hands, or tinker with your car or something"

its this very attitude, that causes men to dislike women. and they never see that it is the problem.

and BTW, i am married i love my wife, and i am bitter to a lot of women because of your attitude and other peoples (which isnt rare at all)and they wonder why men wont have anything to do with women like you.

YOU are the problem mary.

5:34 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What is irritating is the hypocrisy from a certain brand of woman (usually the type who likes to constantly run her mouth).

The girl who still lives with her parents looks down on the guy her age who only has a small apartment. A girl being supported by her parents looks down on a guy who has a low-paying job. A female secretary turns her nose up at a man with more responsibility than her in the company (he's not high enough up to warrant her attention). The fat-assed housewife is concerned that men around her are not working hard enough. And on and on.

That's irritating - and also the fact that they simply run their mouth, on and on and on, with their nagging and dopey views of the world.

5:48 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, by comment about "traditional roles" was more likely aimed at marbel, who wants a man to be a leader.

The funny thing is that they traditional women want that right up to the moment where he leads somewhere that she doesn't want to go. And then the real power relationships in society turn up. A woman and a divorce lawyer are going to beat a "leader" man. In fact, pound him into the ground if they want.

I suspect that's why the true leaders don't fight a battle they can't win.

Women like marbel only want a "real man" or a "leader" because they can be easily manipulated. If the woman wants to sit home on her ever-widening butt, she just tells the mark, or the real man, that real men support women. And so on.

6:00 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

see Mary's comments are the whole point, i complain and its whining a woman who complains well its a sign of her confidence.

this is the whole point, a real man knows about cars, (sexist or what), a real man "Go take a walk in the woods, build something with your hands, or tinker with your car or something"

its this very attitude, that causes men to dislike women. and they never see that it is the problem.

and BTW, i am married i love my wife, and i am bitter to a lot of women because of your attitude and other peoples (which isnt rare at all)and they wonder why men wont have anything to do with women like you.

YOU are the problem mary.

First, cap my name. It's Mary, not mary. And yes, there's a difference.

Second, it was you, not me, who brought the "lady boy" comment from another thread into this one.

Third, I too like to walk in the woods, hang out with the guys, and tinker with my car. Takes my mind off gossipy bullshit. Does that make me a man too? Should all women be "baking and making sandwiches"?

Don't you see the problem here isn't all men or all women? It's these silly group identities some construct and love to perpetuate.

I'm glad you "love your wife" but when you make cracks like that about women, it makes one wonder. Also, if women are somehow causing all the problems for males in society, don't you think they are free to comment as well. Or should we just keep quiet about how our own healthy male/female relationship works, and listen to the whining that mercurior loves to wallow in. See, that makes him one of the guys, helps him fit into that group construct -- no girls allowed!

Face it folks, women need men and men need women. As it always has been. People like jg and mercurior are the ones "running their mouths" with little to offer at this point in the thread other than stereotyping and pointing fingers of blame. Maybe they got it from the women whose traps they could not escape, this running at the mouth, eh? Pity they seem lost, but the truth is, not all males, or all young males are...

Don't get too addicted to that self-pity meme, yet maturely address the problems you might face without falling back on tired old stereotypes and group identity, eh?

7:10 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

And for the life of me, I don't understand if you are working hard and making your money, why someone else "controls 80% of it" -- unless you are paying to support your children from a marriage that has failed.

Otherwise, don't endorse over the check you've worked for that is made out to you. You can't give away your power, and then whine that you don't control your own pocketbook (or diet), right?

7:13 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

"By the way, by comment about "traditional roles" was more likely aimed at marbel, who wants a man to be a leader."

JG, I wasn't going to engage with you, but since you have addressed me directly...

I have no doubt that women such as you describe exist. I have known women like that. You seem incapable, or perhaps unwilling, to acknowledge that there are women who are not like that.

Yes, I believe in traditional marriage, where the woman stays home and raises the kids. I see successful, longterm marriages like that all the time. It's just the environment my family lives in. But I understand that that is not a life everyone wants. I don't hate or disrespect families that don't look like mine. I don't hate mothers who work. Why do you express contempt for women who don't work? Can you accept that some men feel that it is appropriate for their wives to stay home, raise children, and contribute to the family in ways other than financially? And yes, I like men to be strong, to be leaders in their families. That is the way I have found it to work best. You are free to disagree, as is anyone else here. So what? It's a choice we make. It doesn't really affect anyone else. Strong men are usually not easily manipulated, by the way.

Stay-at-home mothers are generally as disgusted with feminism as the men posting here. We are at the opposite end of the spectrum from the feminists. There are women who live somewhere in between. Women who are not feminists but are not stay-at-home moms or housewives. Women who love and respect men and don't indulge in male-bashing. Do you feel contempt for them too?

I don't believe I have ever posted a comment that would be construed as male-bashing. (I know you will correct me if I am wrong.) Yet you continually bash women, particularly housewives. In fact, I believe earlier you said you found me offensive. Now, that is really funny to me. Oh and yes, I did bake today, and made sandwiches, and a dinner that was pretty well-received. Since you asked.

7:34 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary sez:

"Otherwise, don't endorse over the check you've worked for that is made out to you."


Isn't that basically the point of the sex-for-money arrangement called marriage?

Just imagine the pressure the man would get - especially if pumpkin is a housewife - if she got no money at all.

Aside from that, if you google "economic abuse", you will see the arguments that await the stingy guy in court.


You only have to convince your husband that he better keep paying for you. I have a very dim view of housewives, and that's not going to change.

They don't impact me if they just shut their mouth and stay in the home watching Oprah. But that's not the case. If seem some extreme examples of housewives not only dominating the money of the husband but also being the mouthy ones (while he works, and shuts his mouth). I'm going to speak up about it.

7:48 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was young, I saw a few instances of housewives using their husband's money and position in life to bully others. Not even to push through their "rights", I mean to flat out bully people just for the fun of it. Just to show that she married a guy with money or power.

Now I'm older and can do some damage myself. And I would do it if I ran across a housewife like that. Pity, they no longer turn up. They are most likely busy bullying people who don't have the power (like young guys). Now the housewives just appear to be boring losers to me.

7:53 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

Isn't that basically the point of the sex-for-money arrangement called marriage?

Not in a healthy marriage. Please don't try to redefine the word based on your own sick standards. By tearing down the institution in such a manner, you really do threaten the children. We need to call people like you on your comments before the kids start accepting such nonsense as gospel.

They are most likely busy bullying people who don't have the power (like young guys).

And the young guys I know who are happy and successful know enough not to listen to such tripe either -- whether it's being dished out by a feminist or a presumably defeated man such as yourself.

8:31 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mary sez:

"Not in a healthy marriage."


Mary, you're bouncing around here. You seemed to think that a good strategy to prevent women from being in control of the household money was for the man to simply not endorse the check. Don't turn over any money if need be.

And THAT'S a healthy marriage to you? Aside from the fact that it's not going to work (although the nagging of the mother in law will be irritating, the order of the court will be a REAL BITCH).

Since you are now coming up with shaming language ("on your own sick standards" and "defeated man such as yourself"), and you are bouncing all over the board with your suggestions, I assume that you are either out of arguments or you have started drinking for the evening.

8:46 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"And the young guys I know who are happy and successful know enough not to listen to such tripe either ..."


Here's a situation where your happy and successful guy may have to shut up and eat it, at least for a while:

Mr. Engineer is married to the Mrs., who has always been a housewife. Mr. Engineer then starts a company and then it grows. He is selling small parts to the automotive industry. Pretty soon, he and his two other buddies (engineers) have a company with around 200 people.

THEN, the housewife isn't content with the money, she also wants to be an executive (she got a degree in elementary education and then never worked - perfect for the job). So the founder makes her a vice president in the company and tries to keep her away from the important stuff. She isn't content with that, and the husband is too afraid of her to put his foot down.

So she becomes a terror in high heels. She doesn't contribute anything to the company, she just revels in throwing her weight around. Everyone has to clean up behind her and no one dares to say anything. All of a sudden, the former rising-star of a company starts to suffer a high turnover rate among employees. The company starts to run into a rough patch. The consultant who was hired puts it in diplomatic language that the wife may not be the best suited for the position - and the consultant is fired.

Our young happy and successful hero bails out, of course, but had to take it for a while. The husband is naturally a wimp, but the happy and successful hero is not responsible for that.

9:11 PM, February 22, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

By the way, there are a number of (ex-)housewives in the public eye who have done the same thing - working off their husband's power or money.

Ivanna Trump comes to mind, as well as Marge Schott, but there are innumerable examples.

9:19 PM, February 22, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

Not too many young and successful guys I know are paired up with "housewives". Maybe it's a generational thing, and you're busy fighting old demons?

You seemed to think that a good strategy to prevent women from being in control of the household money was for the man to simply not endorse the check. Don't turn over any money if need be.

If a man feels like he's being taken to the cleaners letting his partner control 80% of their money, it's merely a helpful suggestion.

Most young couples I know are content to share and make decisions jointly -- in healthy relationships where both understand they need to work, and spend, together.

Not much of a drinker here, btw, so your insult falls flat. If you or the women you know are heavily into that, we may have hit upon the root cause of your troubles though... and then it's really not all women in the world to blame.

Good luck to you jg, and all those men and women around you.

2:23 AM, February 23, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

You fail to address the point mary (see lower case). i am a whiner for complaining about the attitude of modern women, but if i dont complain i am a wimp.

so either way i cannot win, and neither can any man.

you are obviously very sexist, not all men tinker with cars, not all men hunt and kill deers. not all men build stuff with their hands. The ladyboy comment, is an Obvious derogatory term from you to men who dare speak out, who dare say the majority of western women are not worth the skin they are in. Your attitude mary (see lower case again), is the very reason why more and more men are starting to hate women, women like you.

Now i am very happy with my wife, i have found someone who is perfect for me, and she is happy with me. The comment about me being divorced 3 times and bitter at all women, couldnt be further from the truth. I respect my wife, and my wife respects me. Saying this, i would tell any man on the planet to avoid women like you mary, because they will only have a world of pain, Women with a few exceptions, are not worth the effort as there is nothing left for them.

The law is biased against men, as can be seen if you read this blog. But then again you will still consider me a whiner for speaking out against the "sainted" women, whereas other people will consider me not a real man because i dont suck up the comments.

How are men to ever have a proper relationship if there are mixed messages all the time from women.

I complain its not right, i must be a whiner, i dont complain i must be a wimp. Either way men cant win.

Of course it will never change your opinion. (and i do have a life outside of the net and posting on here).

5:56 AM, February 23, 2008  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior -

I think it's useless for you to try to talk to Mary. If you go further, it's just masochism on your part.

She is taunting you and others. She is into shame & blame and trying to make people feel bad about themselves. She doesn't know the specific hot buttons of people here, but I'll bet she's real good at her hobby in private after she has discovered the weaknesses and hot buttons of people.

7:52 AM, February 23, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

i know, but at least i have said my word. Still at least some people should see how it is, hows your damned if you do and damned if you dont.

as i said this is the very thing we are complaining about.

7:58 AM, February 23, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

i am a whiner for complaining about the attitude of modern women, but if i dont complain i am a wimp.

You have low self esteem because you refer to yourself in the lowercase "i", and you blame your personal troubles on all modern women. The only way for you to stop feeling sorry for yourself is for all women to think themselves your lessers because you are a male. Not likely to happen.

Yes, there are some strong women who are more qualified to participate and compete in "masculine" activities, just as there are some men who are weaker and more in need of protection than women. When you permit yourself to stray from collective group identity, you will find that sometimes individual traits outweigh gender generalities.

Which is why there are some women that men would rather compete/hang out with and participate in games and activities with. And some men they would choose to avoid.

Somehow, I don't think wallowing in self pity instead of standing up for yourself is going to help. And the way you get stronger is not to tell the qualified and welcomed women in these activities that they are holding you back, keeping you down.

Maybe better yourself in terms of your self-esteem and skill sets and you will find less reason to feel victimized and society will be stronger for it overall. (Just a suggestion/observation; you of course can do as you like. I'm not bullying you here.)

5:32 PM, February 23, 2008  
Blogger Derve Swanson said...

She is into shame & blame and trying to make people feel bad about themselves.

No. It seems they were feeling bad about themselves before I even addressed them.

5:33 PM, February 23, 2008  
Blogger Mercurior said...

interesting grammar and spelling as psychology, a whole new field.

4:32 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Spinner said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

5:22 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Dancing Master said...

I wonder how old this Mary is, she most certainly is one of the bully women, who started out in the 1960's not only wishing to be equal to men in pay and stature, but they wanted to go further than that, they wanted to emasculate any male that had the misfortune to come in contact with them.

The agenda was never simply to be equal but to be "better" in their minds.

As for someone using a lower case letter indicating themselves does not imply nor indicate any low self esteem it is simply a typographical error which this person Mary (whom I presume is not a qualified psycholigist) brings upon herself to diagnose.

I would rather someone put their views as clearly and intelligently as Mercurior than put up with the bullying tactics this Mary is doing.

The clue lies in her statement (I am not bullying you here) yes she is otherwise there is no need to make that statement.

As a qualified Psychologist (not practicing) I can answer this posting with a degree of knowledge.

I take umbrage with her view that Mercurior has to change to fit in with her agenda not that her agenda has to change.

What makes her such an expert?

"Which is why there are some women that men would rather compete/hang out with and participate in games and activities with"

What a lot a nonsense this is. Her very attitude is the problem. Women dictating what men should do, what they should think, what they should BE. This is why men like Mercurior and others are starting to actually hate women.

So in this respect Mary is the perfect anti-male / misandrist to have ever to be created by those feminists (Who I remember well from the start) what you do only enforces the anti-female position of so many more men and as he has said, you are the problem, you are the cause of all this, judging Mercurior/all men on his spelling, his grammar and him actually wanting deed and action from these people.

If you are an example of "modern" women then God Help Men and God Help You, you are creating a dreadful world for the future generations.

5:27 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Unknown said...

Of course, Mercurior could have learned and works on the UNIX system, I quote

"The advantages of using mostly lower case on computers are similar to those of using it in other situations. Most importantly, it is easier to read. Also, it helps save space on what can sometimes be smaller-than-desired display screens. Moreover, distinguishing between lower case and upper case characters increases the total number of unique characters that are available for use in file names, commands, etc., thereby adding to system flexibility. "

I would also like to say what about, Ulysess by James Joyce, there are many other lipograms.

Earnest Vincent Wright, wrote a book with no Letter e. IF grammar is psychology, what does Mary think about those.

6:04 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7:49 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Came across this passage from The Brothers Karamazov this morning; seems relevant. (Though the person addressed is a man, women should feel free to substitute the female pronoun if they are offended by the convention of using "man" and "he" to denote "mankind.")

Above all, don't lie to yourself... The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and mae a mountain out of a molehill - he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it, and so pass to genuine vindictiveness.

8:07 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Unknown said...

But when there is an insult generated, to do nothing is the worst action. For tomorrow the insult will become part of society, and accepted. The road to Hell is paved with small steps, an insult here, a law changed to bias one group, and the insult is now accepted as TRUTH.

Turning the other cheek, may work with saintly people, but as poor humans, it doesnt work because we know they will hit the other cheek harder.

I didn't see that Mercurior, did anything but state his case, and retaliate against someone who seems to have a profound hatred of him. To defend yourself is not a crime, Or it shouldn't be. But that is the whole argument in a nutshell to defend oneself, becomes the crime. Mercurior dared speak out, and yet got told he wasnt a good enough human for doing the very action people are saying they don't do.

Mary, how do you know he isn't skilled. Standing up needs a forum to focus the mind, to put the arguments and hone it to perfection, how do you know he isnt a mens rights activist, because he types in lower case? His entire life comes down to upper case or lower case. Amazing that.

11:44 AM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger bmmg39 said...

"To give you an example, I was once at a Ruby Tuesday's restaurant with my husband and daughter having dinner and listening to our pregnant waitress gush about her baby being due soon. 'Do you know if you're having a girl or boy?' I asked. 'Oh, a girl, of course, we don't need anymore men in the world!' Taken aback, I loudly said across the restaurant, 'What do you mean, we don't need ANY MORE MEN in the world? What an ugly sexist thing to say!' The waitress looked embarrassed and went slinking away, probably to the back where she spit in my food, but I didn't care. I bet to this day, she will think twice before opening her mouth in such a nasty and utterly selfish way."

You rock.

She not only said this out loud. She said this with your husband at the table. It's been my experience that the type of people who say this about men are absolutely stunned when their words are met with anything other than giddy approval.

THAT'S how you handle sexist idiots like that, folks.

8:08 PM, February 24, 2008  
Blogger Ed said...

I know I'm late to this party and this comment will likely be read by very few, and it is off-topic, but I had to elaborate a little bit on comething Cham mentioned earlier - the Cheetos commercial with Felicia.

The actress in that commercial is Felicia Day. She is pretty much the nerd trifecta: a degree in mathematics, appearances on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and an avid gamer of MMORPGs. She's also a pretty decent writer. Search around on youtube for The Guild, which she writes and produces (and acts in as well). It's damn funny, much better than most of the shows on TV nowadays.

I now return you to the battle of the sexes.

4:19 AM, February 25, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...


Yes, my husband and daughter were at the table; what is the waitress telling my daughter about men? If I said nothing, would my daughter think that this was acceptable behavior? I wanted to show her otherwise. And what do young boys think of this behavior? Sure, they might shrug it off, most men do, but what does it tell them about who they are and what women think of them and are allowed to express as easily as if they said, "Thanks for coming to Ruby Tuesdays?" I think it is right to stand up to such abuse.

7:48 AM, February 25, 2008  
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