Saturday, July 28, 2007

"I didn't think anybody was stupid enough to try to kill anybody over an internet fight"

Do you ever wonder if internet feuds ever turn into reality? The answer is rarely--most people may shoot off their mouth over the internet but rarely does it turn deadly. But in the case of a Navy guy who couldn't stand being called a nerd, revenge seemed to be the only answer:

ELM MOTT, Texas - A Navy man who got mad when someone mocked him as a "nerd" over the Internet climbed into his car and drove 1,300 miles from Virginia to Texas to teach the other guy a lesson.

As he made his way toward Texas, Fire Controlman 2nd Class Petty Officer Russell Tavares posted photos online showing the welcome signs at several states' borders, as if to prove to his Internet friends that he meant business.

When he finally arrived, Tavares burned the guy's trailer down.

Tavares was given seven years in prison for his anger management problem. So what's the lesson here? No internet squabble is worth getting so upset over that you would give up seven years of your life to seek a few moments of revenge. Keep your cool on the internet--it may be a matter of life or death.



Blogger Dave said...

There's really a "lesson" here? Isn't it intuitively obvious that one should not burn down another person's house?

6:48 PM, July 28, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't have bumper stickers on my car. Same principle.

7:24 PM, July 28, 2007  
Blogger DADvocate said...

In a sense it's hilarious, in another, scary. Driving 1,300 miles and not cooling off! This is one angry guy.

I won't give up a day of my life for a few moments of revenge but I will cut off or minimize a relationship because of something someone said on the Internet.

7:47 PM, July 28, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems like there must have been more to it than just the name-calling. I'd be semi-flattered if somebody called me a nerd.

He could be a Crazed Iraq War Veteran(TM). Maybe they'll make a movie about him!

10:22 PM, July 28, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Mr. Tavares is a piece of work, he was still boiling during his sentencing. I feel safer with this guy in prison for 7 years, it is better to have him there rather than let society wait to see who angers him next.

If I may make a comment I notice that this individual, the DC Sniper, and the sniper who shot his wife in Wyoming both had something in common. Mr. Tavares is in the Navy, the DC Sniper was ex-National Guard and Army and the Wyoming sniper was in the National Guard. I can only suspect that their units may be fully aware of individuals that may have anger management issues, these issues don't crop up overnight. Do agencies like the Army,Navy and National Guard find it advantageous to recruit these types of people for specific duties?

10:50 PM, July 28, 2007  
Blogger Meade said...

from Wikipedia: Fire Controlmen typically operate weapon systems on-board surface combatant ships. They are trained in the repair, maintenance, operation and employment of weapons [...] These include their associated computer and sensor packages. Their job is somewhat unique in that they are trained to troubleshoot and repair their systems, as well as operate them. These responsibilities are typically split up between different ratings for various types of electronic equipment.

In essence, they "pull the trigger", to defend the ship from tactical threats, or to make an offens[ive] strike against a hostile target.

In other words -- nerds who are trained to make offensive strikes against hostile targets. For some reason, this one had a quick long slow short fuse.

11:25 PM, July 28, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

America is a country of angry people, who love to find reasons to hate each other.

I think it is an extention of the entitlement culture. It has come to the point that people feel entitled to express their opinions and have no one disagree.

11:59 PM, July 28, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People can condition themselves to violence. That's what military training, at least initially, is mostly about.

And geeks with guns: Yeah, scary. There's a difference in the mental make-up of someone who has been trained in close-quarters fighting and understands the consequences of winning and losing. Even snipers tend to develop an intimate and sometimes very painful acquaintance with their target. That darn scope.

It's the fire-and-forget guys who you have to worry about, the war-as-video-game geeks who become lethally effective without ever seeing what happens over the horizon when they launch that missile or inside the hold when they fire that torpedo.

That's just a recipe for psychotic personality development, IMHO.

12:07 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...


I agree. I offer as an example my son, who was addicted to violent video games. At the age of 15 I took him to a real life sniper training class. Where he learned that not only did his targets turn into piles of goo, but that in that game, you yourself will turn to goo is you lose.

Some might question my judgement in entering a 15 year old boy in such a class, but since he finished it, he has no interest in reality based (he still likes to slay dragons and stuff) video games. As far as guns, he still likes them, but he is also extremely respectful of them and is just plain afraid of what can happen if you make even one mistake.

12:18 AM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Does anyone see the irony here?

Anyone who drives 1300 miles to burn down someones house from a an internet squabble is a nerd.

I hope he doesn't read this blog

5:00 AM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anyone who drives 1300 miles to burn down someones house from a an internet squabble is a nerd.

Ha! So true.

7:06 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

Meh. He's just a psychotic who happens to connect. And? The trigger could have been a barroom, phone or any conversation.

Nothing to do with the internet other than happenstance.

8:02 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...


I pretty much agree that the internet was just an excuse, not a reason for this guy to go off--just as a Beatles' song was the "reason" behind the Manson murders.

I am sure he has done some pretty angry things before before this incident and as Cham pointed out above, you would think that someone would have noticed, but they often don't in any job--look how many people act up angrily at work and get away with it. In academic setting, acted like a scary loon can be a plus.

Actually the military seems to have less psychopaths than the normal population--I believe it is 1% in the military and 2% in the general population--New York City alone may have as many as 100,000 psychopaths according to Robert Hare in his book, "Without Conscience."

Psychopathic traits are those that are most highly correlated to violence. We do not know, of course, if the perpetrator in this internet case was psychotic (loss of contact with reality) or a psychopath (lack of empathy, impulsive, need for excitement etc). He may have been neither, just poor impulse control. But the point of this post is that this type of extremism where one lets anger get the better of them for no reason other than pure revenge is dangerous.

8:17 AM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


Good call. I know I may draw some fire here (ahem) but I think that the most dangerous violent media are those forms of media that present violence without consequence. This is why I respect soldiers and serious gun-owners so much & am deadly terrified of those who've never seen the consequences or perceive gun ownership as a a means of "defense." Guns are for killing. That's what they're good for. Sometimes that's necessary. But unless you are ready to kill or die you should not draw. There are better weapons for defense if that is what you require. If you draw, expect that life will end, yours or somebody else's. That's what these things were made to do.

9:00 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...


10:24 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

Helen - Can't agree. 1300 miles is a lot of impulse control. It's more than impulse to stay mad for a full day of driving then torch a dwelling.

Graham - My wife's brother interned in an ER. What amazed him most was the kids who where shocked that a bullet wound hurt so much. Better weapons for defense? I think I disagree with you.

10:32 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...


It all depends on the circumstances. I carry a gun almost all the time, thank god I've never had to use it, never even come close. The problem with using it is if you win, you will probably have committed homicide, and it will be up to the police, DA, the DA, even a judge or jury to decide whether it was justifiable.

In addition, there are the psycholigical effects of having killed someone, no matter how justifiable it may have been. 90% of us have an extreme resistance to taking the life of another, even if not doing so means you might lose your own life. The psycholical effects of overcoming that resistance can be severe and long lasting.

There are lots of other ways to defend yourself other than deadly force, and new technology to do it, as well as new psychological strategies for de-escalating situations are being discovered all the time.

An example I learned just the other day while reading "On Combat" by Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, is that quite a school shooting incidents have been stopped by a teacher simply ordering the student to "stop shooting and put the gun down". It seems that adolescents are very well programmed to instanly obey direct orders from their teachers and other authority figures.

11:21 AM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

dr helen, could it be the psychopaths, have an outlet in the army, for the violence. whereas others who arent in the situation to release the stresses of life, do kill anyone.

a sort of yes i am a psychopath but i have an outlet of my agression, but once i dont have that sanctioned outlet anymore, i have to deal with it elsewhere.

i live in a country with little gun crime, at the moment theres a few more, because of the disaffected groups. they dont have an outlet of their violence or they feel lost and need a regimented system to deal with their anger, i say turn it productive.

i do know that once upon a time the american army did a crime waiver system, you could spend time in prison or go into the army.

3:10 PM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

tomcal -- Familiar with the new tech. Unimpressed with the new tech.

"90% of us have an extreme resistance to taking the life of another, even if not doing so means you might lose your own life."

I do not for one moment believe nine out of ten adults would sacrifice their own life just to not kill an attacker. If you mean they hesitate before pulling the trigger, sure. Sometimes that hessitation is lethal, but it certainly isn't a "gee, I shouldn't shoot this guy", just lack of practice. Everything takes practice.

Yeah. Couple of years ago in Florida that didn't work for the teacher. Shot in the face.

5:20 PM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

mercurior: I'm not sure American killers/evildoers are motivated because they need "an outlet for violence". Some Americans seem hell bent on demanding other people act or respond a certain way within a given set of circumstances. This particular situation, as is with many other violent offenders, was about teaching someone a lesson, sometimes the lesson involves arson or death. Violent people in the US often are triggered when they feel someone is not adhering to their version of an etiquette code of proper behavior. Mr. Tavares felt Mr. Anderson called him a name. The Wyoming sniper was offended when his wife took out a restraining order against him and the DC Sniper was upset because his wife wouldn't give him visitation with his children. I have no idea whether this craziness crosses national or cultural lines.

7:28 PM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think Cham means the snipers got "dissed." Just like this Tavares guy.

I hate to sound like an old geezer, but when I was a lad only low-lifes killed each other over being dissed. (Just like only low-lifes brought knives and guns to school.)

Are people in general more sensitive nowadays? Have they lost some kind of emotional buffer that once protected folks from minor insults and other situations in which life doesn't treat them fairly?

I mean, it seems pretty obvious that these guys felt insulted, put down, lessened, deprived of their manhood or respect or whatever. So who the hell hasn't felt like this? What I don't understand is why the ego thing becomes a life-or-death issue.

I don't think it's because of more violence in entertainment or lack of impulse control. More like low self-esteem or its flip-side...our old favorite, narcissism.

8:57 PM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

P.S. - What I forgot to say was, I'm not a saint myself. I would get violent, even kill, on my own behalf, if my physical survival (or maybe my liberty) absolutely depended on it. Also, I would rather steal than beg. But I can't imagine tracking someone down and trying to kill them because they called me a name.

9:01 PM, July 29, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yet more evidence of the pathology of American culture!

oops -

I'm gonna drive to Southwark and pummel that limey for stealing our thunder!

11:48 PM, July 29, 2007  
Blogger kipwatson said...

I know it's totally inappropriate, but I'm impressed...

1:57 AM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I may have different criteria. In war, I choose guns for offense. If I'm going to the 7-11 for a Slurpee, I prefer ballpoint pens (they favor short, strong, quick fighters). But overall the best defensive weapon is anything compact you can get to quickly & discharge with quick disabling power. Killing weapons bring a whole new dimension & don't always favor the attacker. The thing with guns is that they are not designed to disable. They're killing weapons. That's all. They MIGHT wound. But a draw can be blocked. A panicky shooter can kill randomly. A piece can be turned. The thing about guns is that you never draw unless you intend to kill. Never draw unless you expect to kill. There are other weapons that can disable much more efficiently.

2:18 AM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


If you can find it, there's a piece in "Newsweek" that might interest you. February, 2006, I think. Second or third week of the month, I believe. It documents the rising tide of violence amongst adolescent girls. It's a pretty sharp piece. The authors observe that although girls haven't changed that much technology has changed girls. They ramp up their adrenaline with text messaging * Internent sniping at night & when they get to school they're out for blood. That's a crude precis, anyway. If you can't find it & want to read it I'll see if I can track it down.

2:34 AM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Olig, Everyone:

Carry a gun if you know how to use it. That means martial discipline. Don't pack unless you know what that gun is good for. Please. There are more effective defensive weapons. Pepper Spray is good. So is a stun gun. If you're strong, a ball-point pen can disable and immobilize an attacker. Virtually anything can be a weapon. But it's important to know the difference between a defensive weapon and an offensive weapon. The former provides options, the latter deletes them entirely. Just take my word on this.

4:45 AM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Carry a gun if you know how to use it. That means martial discipline. Don't pack unless you know what that gun is good for.

Also, don't insult people whom you don't know.

I wonder if the guy whose trailer got burned learned anything.

But then I always wonder if Jewish people learned anything about their previous behavior from the Holocaust.

You never think of consequences for your behavior and provocations, but sometimes the price is high.

Then again, we'd never have Israel in the special position she is in today if not for the Holocaust. Sometimes the damages make the price you paid seem worth it.

Still, most of us think you should do the right thing, play by the rules, and be accountable for your actions.

Dude didn't deserve to have his trailer burned (not did all the Jews who died in the Holocaust deserve their fate) but his actions had consequences that in the future he is free to change. I hope he has learned and does.

6:34 AM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

graham --

If you've read my postings here, you know full well you're preaching to the choir about weapons.

A dagger is not designed to disable. It's designed to kill. One can use it to disable, just as one can use a pistol to disable. Along the lines of that para, a knife or taser can be turned, and their draw can be blocked. Moot.

Ball point pen - you'd better be trained very well. Not only does the thrust have to be extremely acute, but it's dull and requires great force and speed. Not to mention the precision of knowing the location of and being able to hit a vital. Otherwise, you're just poking him.

Pepper spray - wind. That and sometimes it just doesn't seem to do much to some people.

Stun gun - one attack. If you miss, what?

Me? I favor making him go down over there, not at my feet.

To turn a phrase - "the former provides options" for the attacker to get close to you.

"Just take my word on this."

No. I'll take my experience, which seems to contradict your word. Sorry if that offends.

Your admonition about knowing what you're doing is a good one. It applies double-fold when one chooses to close quarters with a violent opponent.

7:52 AM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 6:34:

What are you talking about? The Jews somehow deserved the Holocaust? People who insult others somehow deserve to have their trailers burned down? What are you talking about?

8:33 AM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Helen, anonymous 6:34 proves my point, too many people out there trying to teach people "lessons" through violence. These lesson teachers definitely have a loose screw.

9:27 AM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

That was a strange one. Maybe he meant that if the Jews had lived in trailers the Nazis would have burned those instead.

About guns: If somebody did mess with me, they'd quickly discover that I argue incoherently and fight like a small girl. If I were to experience a violent confrontation, I'd like to have the option of shooting my assailant dead rather than embarrassing myself.

10:50 AM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Serket said...

Sometimes if I feel I am being attacked on the internet, I will ruminate on it for a few days. I have participated in several message boards and they get tiring after a while. So far I like the blogs I frequent. I think the key is to find people you agree with on some topics. I really don't think I would ever go after a person. You would probably have to be somewhat psychotic. There was a woman once who annoyed me for several reasons and she always bragged about how she kept her personal information a secret. I was able to figure out her full name. I never tried to contact her and it was probably wrong to do. I should control my anger better next time. I would definitely be frightened if someone from the internet came to find me.

Cham, my guess is that the military is not a perfect institution and you are going to have criminals involved. I would guess that they are a smaller proportion than the general population. But you also have to factor in that the military is training young men to kill and then they come back home and have to try and adjust to a normal life. Did you hear about the anti-war activist who shot airman Jonathan Schrieken?

1:45 PM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

People who insult others somehow deserve to have their trailers burned down?

I am a different anonymous, but my answer is sort of a "Yes." I do not think one should burn down another's trailer. But, then again, that's what you get for not watching your mouth and making nasty comments about other people.

I have little sympathy for gossips and muckrakers. And I think we should bring back the duel.

1:54 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

I hope Anon 6:34 meant that had some Holocaust victims organized and fought back they might have overcome their captors.

Otherwise his remarks are reprehensable.

2:50 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger davidc. said...

There is an old southern expression that might apply here as this is the south that we are talking about. And that is " I know where you live". If you here that is the south you are in trouble. As witnessed in this report.

2:56 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 1:54:

A person willing to kill or burn someone's trailer down over an insult or gossip is someone who belongs in jail. The guy in this story is a case in point. No insult is worth killing or burning property down. That is called murder or arson.

3:00 PM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen: Especially Internet insults or gossip - which are usually directed at a persona or a piece of writing, not the actual human being behind them.

Again, why do some people consider this stuff so important to their self-esteem?

3:19 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...


I don't know. Maybe it's similar to the way some people become monsters when they get behind the wheel of a car.

6:11 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Meade said...

Maybe, for some people, narcissistic injuries can lead to psychotic breaks.

6:30 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

Perhaps he was just psycho to begin with. They latch onto any damn reason to explode. Trying to find a rational reason is fruitless and foolish.

I really don't give a crap why someone does something. It's the something that counts.

7:17 PM, July 30, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Regarding the Something: Did he wear diapers during his 1,400 mile journey?

Wearing a diaper can be very convenient while driving long distances to a location where you intend to commit a crime of passion.

10:41 PM, July 30, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tc - Watch it! You don't want him to come and burn down your trailer...

10:58 AM, July 31, 2007  
Blogger Serket said...

The astronaut denies wearing diapers. If they really were baby diapers, then I believe her because the story was about adult diapers. Plus, as Jay Leno (?) said, she would have to stop for gas.

11:45 AM, July 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

No insult is worth killing or burning property down. That is called murder or arson.

I didn't say it wasn't illegal.

But that doesn't mean I sympathize with the "victim". If you're a jerk and you set someone off because you're a jerk, that's what you get. Keeping your mouth shut is what I call "Trailer Insurance".

And it isn't as if the law doesn't take that into account. There are tiers of intent and there's mitigation for emotional disturbance, etc.

Here's how I would put it: no insult is worth being killed over or having your property burnt down. It's called watching your mouth.

1:45 PM, July 31, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...


Ok so she didn't "wear" the diapers, she just stuffed a baby diaper down her pants every time she had to pee.

That's a great idea, I'm off to the store to buy myself a bag. Do you think that the newborn infant size has enough capacity to collect an adult sized bladder full?

2:19 PM, July 31, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

ain't got --

So, an online squabble is "setting someone off"? Now we're supposed to be able to tell online whether we're debating (even if hostilely) a psycho?

"I'm a serial killer. We look just like everybody else." -- Wednesday Addams

8:29 PM, July 31, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Now we're supposed to be able to tell online whether we're debating (even if hostilely) a psycho?

Why are you saying such nasty things to other people online that you're fearful you're a borderline case? One need not be a psycho to want to revenge. Or to commit murder. Or arson. Just angry.

Don't you know how to watch your mouth?

1:58 AM, August 01, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

ain't --

Borderline case of what? You're not clear there. And how is the sentence you referred to nasty?

People who burn other people's houses down for calling them a nerd are psychos. It's called scale.

No. Committing murder or arson isn't done just because you're angry. There's nobody normal who doesn't know it's wrong to the nth.

I'd be delighted to read your reasoning for why it isn't.

Don't you know how to watch your mouth?

Why... Did you just issue a threat?

8:12 AM, August 01, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

o - Maybe he's just trying to say that moderate speech is less likely to provoke an intemperate response. He has a point - up to a point...

1:54 PM, August 01, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

bugs -

Maybe. Don't think so. Nerd isn't exactly a terrible slur ya know. Kinda like jock, geek or such. Only someone already disturbed would become intemperate over it. Certainly to the point of torching a dwelling.

4:23 PM, August 01, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

True - burning trailers is the point at which it is no longer about being polite.

That's why I suggested earlier that there might be more to the incident than someone overreacting to being called a nerd. It's like the sleeping babysitter thing - it feel like some key details are missing from the report. Maybe if we follow the story for a while, more facts will emerge.

6:12 PM, August 01, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

Oh, I'm sure more facts will emerge. They'll have to be along the lines of guy one torched guy two's house for me to even consider it less than psychotic that guy two torched guy one's trailer though.

8:00 PM, August 01, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

ain't 1:58:

Are you Tarvares posting from prison?

10:48 AM, August 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I tried to watch my mouth once. But I had to poke my lips out so far I went cross eyed, and strained my eyeball muscles. The trailer park was all the way on the other side of town, my bike had a flat tire - just wasn't a good day.

4:43 PM, August 02, 2007  
Blogger Unknown said...

helen and br549 -- friggin' funny.

7:32 PM, August 02, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Which reminds me, and I hope I haven't told this one yet.

There was a tremendous fire in Charleston, WV just the other day.

The Governor's Mansion burned right down to the wheels.

9:43 PM, August 02, 2007  
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