Canadian Female Criminals are Just Big Kids
If you are are female and want to get away with murder, just head to Canada. Kala Homolka was freed from prison recently after just twelve years for the killing of three women--one of them her fifteen year old sister,Tammy Lynn. Karla even took part in raping her sister. Naturally, she blamed her husband, Paul Bernardo, for the whole thing and was given a lighter sentence for agreeing to testify against him. Despite video tapes showing Karla to have participated in these crimes, she was seen as a victim, especially because she was fair-haired and beautiful, kind of like an innocent child. If you want to read more about Karla Homolka's case and the politics and psychology of female killers, I highly recommend When She Was Bad: How and Why Women Get Away With Murder.
Apparently, in Canada, if you just say you are sorry, you may not serve any jail time at all, and if you are female, all bets are off for what type of reduced sentence you can finagle out of the court system:
And if you cannot stick to lower level types of crime, you can murder without having to lose too much time at work:
Wow, a slap on the wrist, being sent to your room and having to talk to a counselor. In Canada, women can revel in being treated like children. My only question is, with this patriarchal system of justice in Canada, should women really be allowed to vote? Or is this just Canada's tradition of niceness being carried to ridiculous extremes?
Update: Thanks to Lex's blog for pointing out these crime stats which show that Canada has more attempted crime and crime per 100,000 people than the US. Perhaps the US may not be such a den of iniquity afterall.
Apparently, in Canada, if you just say you are sorry, you may not serve any jail time at all, and if you are female, all bets are off for what type of reduced sentence you can finagle out of the court system:
Female criminals have it even easier. Just over 15 per cent of women convicted of a crime will ever see the inside of a cell. The average stay, for those unlucky few who have to serve time, is just over 90 days for single crime, just under six months for multiple crimes. The average length of probation was about 15 months for "single-conviction" cases, about 19 months for multiple-conviction criminals.
And if you cannot stick to lower level types of crime, you can murder without having to lose too much time at work:
Consider the sentence of Teresa Layne Senner, of Vanderhoof, B.C. She killed Norman Wicks in November 2002 with a single knife stab to the groin after Wicks informed her he would not leave his wife to marry her, and after she learned he was having affairs with at least three other women besides her.
When Senner confronted Wicks in his home, she testified "stuff just started flying," including the knife that just happened to end up in her hand and then in his crotch.
The judge claimed not to buy her excuse that she was merely trying to get the knife out of the way of their quarrel, and safeguard Wicks, when the blade accidentally ended up in his nether regions.
The trial judge admitted most of Senner's testimony did not stand up to close examination. Nonetheless, because she "had no criminal record and had been a contributing member of society," he handed her a conditional sentence of two years less a day. She may live in her home and continue working. The only conditions are that she seek counselling and obey an 8 p.m. to 6 a.m. curfew.
Wow, a slap on the wrist, being sent to your room and having to talk to a counselor. In Canada, women can revel in being treated like children. My only question is, with this patriarchal system of justice in Canada, should women really be allowed to vote? Or is this just Canada's tradition of niceness being carried to ridiculous extremes?
Update: Thanks to Lex's blog for pointing out these crime stats which show that Canada has more attempted crime and crime per 100,000 people than the US. Perhaps the US may not be such a den of iniquity afterall.
posted by Helen at 1:39 PM
48 Comments:
Canada is indeed lenient, but consider Tucson last week. A woman who shoplifted up to $600,000 in the last five years was sentenced to...probation, because, she supposedly had a bad childhood.
That'll teach shoplifters a thing or two, won't it.
Karla Homolka is now one of the most notorious women in Canada. Upon her release, she decided to settle in Quebec because the French-Canadian media did not cover her case as heavily as the English did.
Ms Homolka was cagey enough to enter into a plea bargain (12 years in total on three counts of manslaughter) *before* the video tapes you refer to were discovered--by Paul Bernardo's attorney who just happened to have had them in his possession for 18 months. (But that's another story.) When the tapes were found, the public was outraged and demanded that Karla pay for the full extent of her crimes, but the Crown attorneys said that they had made an agreement and they just had to stick with it. When this was made into a "Law and Order" episode, shown I think In Feb 2000, the judge threw out the plea agreement as contrary to the interests of justice. If only our Canadian judges had the guts!
She served the full 12 years of her sentence, which is almost unheard of in Canada. She applied for parole at every opportunity, but was too radioactive even for our lenient parole authorities to release.
12 years seems very short for three killings to me, too. However, if she was convicted of murder here in England, and got life, she would probably have been out in ten years...
Ah, Canada. Imagine California run amuck: political correctness on steroids; haven for "conscientious objectors;" extreme welfare state; open border advocate; gay marriage; and the list goes on, a rousing paean to the left. This silly court decision simply manifests the prevailing institutional view in a ridiculous manner.
On a brighter note, there have been recent indications that reasonable (i.e. thinking) Canadians are getting fed up. I hope THAT trend continues and grows.
statguy,
Thanks for elaborating on the case. I realize that Karla H. made the plea bargain prior to the videos coming out--but even afterwards, she was treated by some as a victim. For example, according to Susan Cole in Toronto's "Now" magazine, Karla H. was a brutalized victim who "chose the most humane course she could by drugging her sister that Tammy would at least be unconscious when Bernardo drugged her." When she made a bid for parole in 1993, others called her a victim, a normal human being who had been through hell. I guess even seeing and hearing a woman comitting crimes on a video tape was not enough to convince a bunch of academics and journalists that a woman can kill because she wants to.
Now Helen, aren't we all victims of something in one way or another (tongue firmly planted in cheek).
Now is a free alt weekly that's most notable for its vast section of "escourt" advertisements in the back. It's in no way representative of any wide section of the population.
Homolka is an insanely manipulative pyschopath, who twisted the Crown Attorney's around her finger. They, I guess, still see her as a victim but most others do not.
There is all the difference in the world between being treated as a victim or an innocent child, and being described as one. Karla Homolka got 12 years in prison. Whether or not you think that that was long enough, victims and innocent children do not go to prison for 12 years.
Teresa Senner's sentence sounds outrageously lenient, but it is also not the same case as Karla Homolka. It is certainly possible to cherry-pick examples anywhere of people who get away with murder. O.J. Simpson and Robert Blake come to mind.
Canadian criminal sentences may or may not be too lenient — cherry-picked examples don't prove anything. However, the Canadians might also be doing something right, since their homicide rate is lower than that in the United States. What is the point of stiff justice if it does not prevent crime?
You could speculate that Canada is just lucky to have a lower homicide rate because of different weather and demographics. But even if you compare Canada to American states with similar weather and demographics, for example Minnesota, Canada's homicide rate is still lower.
The homicide rate for Minnesota is here. The homicide rate for Canada (through 1997) is here. (It has fallen further since, to 548 homicides in 2003, or 1.7 per 100,000 people. See here.) Or if you don't like Minnesota because it is not rock-ribbed Republican, try Idaho. Idaho's homicide rate is low in some years because of statistical fluctuations, but if you take a 5-year average, you get the same conclusion.
Not really germane, but I've never seen "finagle" spelled the way you do. Some sort of regional variation? I'm hoping, for no readily discernable reason, that it turns out to be Yiddish.
Karla Homolka got 12 years in prison. Whether or not you think that that was long enough, victims and innocent children do not go to prison for 12 years.
Sure they do. *Everyone* in prison is a victim, just ask them.
However, the Canadians might also be doing something right, since their homicide rate is lower than that in the United States. What is the point of stiff justice if it does not prevent crime?
But you don't need to go outside the US to see how well lenient justice works.
Compare the crime rate in a Republican town with liberal carry laws and stiff justice to a Democratic town with restrictive gun laws and lenient justice.
The reason the US has so many executions yet such high crime is because all the criminals flock to the places where they can commit crimes unimpeded.
gee I remember reading about that case , this woman must have been insane to do these murderous things to strangers let anlone her own flesh and blood , I wouldnt want a person like her loose in society ...
Okay, I won't argue that Canada's homicide rate is lower than that of the US precisely because of more lenient sentencing laws. It may be for some other reason entirely. And in general I don't want to get into a statistics shouting match over the merits of either sentencing or gun control. These are multifaceted issues and the factions on both sides have statistics up the wazoo. All I will say is that Canada must be doing something right, if its homicide rate is lower than demographically and meteorologically similar states like Minnesota and Idaho.
If you want to compare a very liberal, anti-gun city to a much less liberal, pro-gun city, then my examples are Davis, California and Knoxville, Tennessee. I live in Davis and Helen Smith lives in Knoxville. (I don't know where Scooby lives.) Davis has 65,000 people and had 1 murder in 2004, while Knoxville has 175,000 people and had 20 murders in 2004, according to Uniform Crime Reports. This suggests that Davis is doing something right. I'll leave it to others to speculate what.
What Davis is doing right is moving away from ethnic diversity. Oakland aint so hot. Two large factors in low homicide rates are homogenous populations and cultural heritage.
http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html
Homogenous is not just a code word for "white." Singapore and Hong Kong have low homicide rates. Not all ethnically homogenous areas are safe, however, as another factor comes into play.
The cultural factor is the piece no one wants to touch. NH and Maine have lower homicide rates than Canada. Canada's overall rate is pulled down by the Maritimes, which are culturally very similar to New England. The areas settled by the Puritans of East Anglia -- which still has the lowest homicide rate in the UK -- have low homicide rates. Those settled by the Scot-Irish and English borderers -- think Belfast, Glasgow -- and the areas further settled by their expansion, have high murder rates. I recommend David Hackett Fisher's "Albion's Seed" for a fuller treatment of this.
I would also venture to add that Davis is likely a more affluent town than Knoxville. Where you have more of an underclass, you have more crime. If the underclass can't afford to live in Davis - then the crime rate drops accordingly.
And by "affluent" I don't mean filthy rich - I mean people have jobs and can pay rent/mortgage etc.
There goes contrary old Doc Kuperberg with a sonnet written to his People's Republic of Davis and its highly evolved system of laws that keep the crime rate down.
Here is a question for everyone. We all know what Kuperberg will say. So, everyone else: what is the median price for a four bedroom home in Davis, California? Then ask the same question for Knoxville, Tennessee.
Kuperberg is right: Davis is "doing something right." It isn't outlawing guns, as folks who earn a real living know. It's keeping poor and working class people out of Davis.
To follow up on the excellent point made by AVI, I agree there are cultural issues at work. After reading "Albion's Seed", I recommend Thomas Sowell's book "Black Rednecks & White Liberals", in which Sowell considers the role culture plays in who we are and how we act.
My knowledge about Canadian justice is limited but I believe Karla's punishment would have been more severe if her case had been in the Western provinces. It's my impression that, just as justice in America varies depending on the locale, so too does Canadian justice.
I just found this post by Lex. The statistics show different countries and number of violent crimes per 100,000 population. Just thought I would add it to the conversation. Note the ranking of Canada compared to the US...
Oh and from Bestplaces.net** the median home prices are as follows:
Davis, CA 540,000
Knoxville, TN 109,000
National 208,500
Their site says this is for the year 2005. It is only one source - I'm not going to check out others but I'm pretty sure the general trend holds... it costs quite a bit more to live in Davis than in Knoxville.
**Note that I chose Best Places because it was at the top of the page when I googled "compare cities"
drj has the right of it, at least for the most part. Karla lived and was tried in the Niagara Region (like a county) and so was tried under the more liberal views of that Region.
There's a lot of sexism in Canadian Justice, almost all of it against minority-men and for white-females. Fact. Disturbing fact too.
Some of the sexism is enshrined in law. Officers in women's jails cannot carry guns or even get guns out of the gun locker: That might frighten the women. Men in jail cannot be protected from women's looking and touching. (Which doesn't matter to most men, but would certainly KILL me and I'm not overstating that.)
The whole justice thing is getting rapidly worse in the face of the massive rise in gun violence in Canada's cities. All levels of government say they are doing something about the murders. Sadly, that something does not in any way include actually doing something which would stop the creation of hopeless young men. Fixing the anger and hopelessness of the young men committing the violence would mean adding males to the social help system and that no politician would allow.
Steve,
Yeah, it's Yiddish--that's it. No, unfortunately, it is just bad spelling and typing too fast.
Greg,
The murders in Knoxville are mainly centered in one or two areas--we have a number of projects here where murders take place and there is the cultural aspect of more family murders. True stranger killings are a rarity.
It's a bit difficult to ignore the extremely rude and ad hominem tone from the anonymous poster in this discussion. On the other hand, what do you expect from anonymous posters on the Internet?
Davis does limit its growth, and it does have something to do with its high housing prices. I have never liked anti-growth politics in Davis; I agree that it is not consistent with its otherwise liberal voting patterns. But still, the city must be doing something right if people want to live here so badly. It certainly isn't because the houses are all mansions. These days, $500,000 in Davis will get you about 1,500 square feet on a 1/10 acre lot.
And most of the people who live in these houses are working class. If housing prices are astronomical here, median income is not. Many people bought their houses when they were much cheaper and still live in them. Most of the UC Davis faculty are not particularly well-paid, and a fair fraction of the clerical staff live in Davis as well. For those who moved here recently, the expensive housing market just takes a bigger bite out of their salaries. Nonetheless, the homicide rate is very low.
I will concede that even though Davis does have its working class, I don't see how a homeowner here can go outright bankrupt. Because I would suppose that they would first sell their overpriced houses, move out of Davis, then try to make ends meet elsewhere. That may indeed export crime out of the city.
If you are determined to disqualify Davis because it is too white and too white-collar, there is also Woodland, the next town over. Woodland has 50,000 people and is 39% Hispanic, according to this source. It is very blue-collar and rather less anti-growth than Davis. Nonetheless the FBI also reported only 1 murder for 2004 in Woodland. (In truth, 1 murder in one year is unusually high for Davis and may be unusually low for Woodland.)
In response to a comment from Helen at the top:
The great weakness of many international comparisons of crime, especially those that include all attempted crimes, is differences in crime reporting patterns. A country that is enthusiastic about law and order might also be enthusiastic about recording attempted crimes. That is why the most reliable international and even interstate American comparison focus on completed homicides and auto theft. These two types of crime are the most clear-cut and the most likely to be reported. Even between these two, homicide is more clear-cut than auto theft.
So you might think from Lex's chart that Sweden has three times more crime than the United States. But it is hard to square with the fact that the homicide rate in the United States is several times higher. In any case, the original examples in this posting — Homolka and Senner — were homicide cases. So I thought that homicide wsa the real topic, not crime in general.
For that matter, even though the United States has more homicide than Canada, that does not make the U.S. a "den of iniquity". The U.S. is a nice place to live, but in this respect, Canada is a little nicer.
Greg,
Your point about international stats is a point about crime stats in general--sometimes comparing many of these stats is like comparing apples and oranges. For example, there are many areas in Tennessee where we have had no murders at all and then you have areas in the projects where drug dealing and other rates of crime are higher--you would have to compare these pockets of crime to others that are similar.
Also, I do not think the US is a den of iniquity--I am pointing out that it is not as bad as people make it out to be in other countries as far as crime--even if these stats are different reflections of how we perceive crime--it does show the possibility that the US is not at the top of the list.
Helen: It is true that whenever you find an explanation for differences in crime statistics, you can then say that the difference is apples and oranges. The question is what there is to learn from the difference. In general I do mean that as a question.
If you are looking at the total recorded rate of all crimes and attempted crimes in, for example, Scandinavia, there may be no more to learn than that Scandinavians are eager to report and record these incidents.
If you are looking at the homicide rate in Canada versus Minnesota, then differencies in record-keeping are probably not the explanation.
If you are looking at Maine and New Hampshire, as one poster ventured, then there is the fact that neither of these states has any large cities. Canada has several very large metropolitan areas, and in that sense Minnesota is similar because it has Minneapolis-St. Paul. Canada's Atlantic provinces are similar to Maine, but they do not pull down Canada's overall homicide rate by much since few people live there.
If the question is Knoxville and Davis, then I agree that one difference is that Knoxville has crime-ridden housing projects and Davis does not. I was responding to the poster "scooby", who asserted that a liberal, anti-gun town would have a lot of crime. My point is, not necessarily. I'm sure that the gangs of West Sacramento know what Davis is like, but these gangs don't murder and pillage in Davis. All they have to do is drive 10 miles on the freeway to get here, but they generally don't do it.
Likewise, my point about Canada's homicide rate was to respond to the idea that women generally get away with murder there. If they have fewer murders per capita than Minnesota or Idaho, you can't argue that Canadians are entirely crazy.
Maybe it is better to take anecdotes for what they are, rather than to pass judgment on entire countries. The Homolka case is a morbid tale, but 12 years in prison ought to count for something. The Senner case seems infuriating, but even there, at least the lady was convicted and got house arrest. In my book, it seems less disgusting than the Robert Blake case. I have to wonder whether the jury embraced the most far-fetched doubts as reasonable, just because they didn't want to convict a celebrity.
Greg - about the Robert Blake or the OJ cases. It is very unlikely that not-guilty outcomes would have resulted in any other state in the USA outside of the loony state of California.
Now, to change the subject a bit. Crime in my town of ANn Arbor has really jumped up . 2005 was one of the worst years on record. The reason , I think, is becasue, ANn Arbor, is a liberal, anti-gun city. And unlike in your example of davis, CA, gangbangers from the metro Detroit areas havefigured that Ann Arborites make for easy prey, and hence, they travel to Ann Arbor, engage in armed robbery, rape and take off. Crime here, especially ofthe violent type, seems to be concentrated in and around the campus, and off-campus areas where the majority of the students live, plus, on the west side of town, which is the most liberal area, with most of the lunatic-left live in. Local police say that violent criminals will prey on those ppulation groups, becasue, leftist-liberals are (1) less likely to be packing a pistol, or knife or nanchuks, and (2) usually are not the most macho types that will fight back. So, predators come to places that are gun-free.
pardon my ranting, and have a great day, y'all.
ronin1516,
I don't think you are ranting--when you live in one of these liberal do-nothing cities like I did in NYC in the 1980's, you realize that you are a sitting duck without any protection in a place where predators think you are easy prey and are right. No weapons--not even mace was allowed in NYC when I was there and the crack dealers took over the street--over 1500 murders a year and many by crack addicted junkies. New Yorkers at that time were absolute whimps who would not fight back or do a damn thing to help anyone. I do not need stats to tell me these things--I was there. I think once the clean-up in NYC started and people saw how much better the city could be--the mentality did change. Also, many of the crack addicts died and were not replaced.
ronin1516: It seems to me that you are sensationalizing small numbers in your description of Ann Arbor. According to Uniform Crime Reports (linked above), Ann Arbor had 2 murders in 2004 with a population 115,000. That's statistically indistinguishable from Davis and Woodland.
Yes, Robert Blake and O.J. Simpson are in California. Most movie and TV celebrities are. But they are in Southern California, which is distinctly different from Northern California, where I live. You may be right that they would have been convicted in Tennessee — it's hard to say, given the lack of cases. But Tennessee has its own homicide acquittals. It might be interesting to study the failure to indict Kenneth Bartley, Sr., given that his son has now also shot and killed a man.
"On the other hand, what do you expect from anonymous posters on the Internet?"
Greg, that remark is, in itself, as much an ad hominem as what it responds to. His anonymous status is not relevant to the ideas he puts forth, or a sound rebuttal of them. People who attack anonymity are typically frustrated that ignorance of others' personal characteristics confounds the construction of a really good ad hominem.
"But still, the city must be doing something right if people want to live here so badly"
By that logic, the tobacco companies must be doing something right, too (and the implication of context would be that we are talking morally right.)
"Most of the UC Davis faculty are not particularly well-paid, and a fair fraction of the clerical staff live in Davis as well"
But to own $500K houses, they at least are employed, and probably better educated than the average Knoxville resident.
In any event, homicide rates are not necessarily an indication that ANYONE is doing ANYTHING right. Crime rates in the USA have fallen since the mid 90's, and this is largely attributed to demographics, primarily a low population of males age 15-25, the most criminal segment of the population. You cherry picked Minnesota and Idaho, then ignored the citation of Maine and New Hampshire, I noticed. There are significant demographic, cultural, and other differences between Canada and US northern border states.
Well for one thing I was the anonymous poster at 1:02am with the housing prices and link to Lex... I was in a hurry and hit post before realizing that I hadn't reset the identity. Then I dashed off instead of posting immediately afterward (that'll learn me) I have no problem putting my name on any post that I do or - in this case letting anyone know that I did make that anonymous post. Just because the post has "anonymous" on it, does not mean the same person is posting every one of them!
"If you are determined to disqualify Davis because it is too white and too white-collar"
It's not a racial issue at all... nor is it a blue collar/white collar issue. It's an issue of those with jobs verses those without jobs. I don't believe there is a single instance anywhere in this country where the crime rate is lower in housing projects filled with welfare recipients compared to neighborhoods where the majority of people hold jobs and support themselves and their families - everyone involved can be purple with pink polka-dots rather than white, black, hispanic, or asian and you would still have the same result. Davis does not have a welfare class, therefore it's crime statistics are lower. Compare an equal city in Tennessee and you would get a very close result.
I've lived in very bad neighborhoods - where there was marginal employment. Those with jobs - even the lowly blue collar jobs - were never the source of problems. It was the young unemployed responsible for the crime and - their heritage was never an issue except maybe to determine what gang they belonged to... we had the Latin Kings and a Laotian street gang... the name of which I could never remember.
Now that I've worked my way up to a much better area... an area where people have jobs and are busy working... the crime rate is very low indeed. And I am very happy to live in a town like that and happy that they exist.
This is, of course WAY off the original topic of women in Canada getting a pass for committing terrible crimes. And yes, for killing 3 people... 12 years is a pittance... both of them should at least have gotten life in prison with no parole.
well we are a little crazy up here in the frozen north. to many years under the "liberals".for those of you fascinated by the"homolka" back east in ontario just wait until we out here in british columbia bring you the saga of"willy pickton".this excuse for a human being should be coming up for trial in the next year or so.i hope you'll enjoy it but like the "homolka" his crimes make me sick.he might be sent to "ferndale" one of our finer prisons with it's own golf course no less.are you all laughing at our justice system now? good, i love that music.c.j.g.of eroticalee
As Massachusetts, which has Boston, not to mention the mill cities of Worcester, Springfield, Lowell, etc, also has a low homicide rate, I'm sticking with my cultural heritage argument. In fact, the murder rate was even lower in my youth, before VT was repopulated by NY, and NH repopulated by everyone else.
Helen's point about housing projects brings up Theodore Dalrymple's prediction more than two years ago of the explosive areas around Paris. The "kindness" of that type of block architecture for the poor created areas that drug dealers could control more easily than the police could. Home ownership, even of substandard, wretched housing, reduces the homicide rate as well. One more example of well-intentioned cruelty by governments. And while it is often blamed on liberals, housing projects owed considerable minority support to conservatives as a solution.
Naturally, I knew Canada would blame the US for all THEIR violent crimes.
O' Canada!!!!
TP
Best regards from NY!
» » »
Greg K said: "It might be interesting to study the failure to indict Kenneth Bartley, Sr., given that his son has now also shot and killed a man." What crime would you like him to be charged with?
Robert William ("Willie") Pickton, the pig farmer, has been charged with the first degree murders of twenty-six women. Pickton is currently on trial for six of these murders. During the trial's first day, January 22, 2007, the Crown stated he confessed to forty-nine murders to an undercover police officer posing as a cell mate. The crown reported that Pickton told the officer that he wanted to kill another woman to make it an even 50, and that he was caught because he was "sloppy". The trial is expected to take up to a year or more.
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wow, well you certainly seem to be well imformed, but please dont catagorize canadians, like your sound like a dumb shit when you say women get away with everything in canada, so in these cases yes sadly, but dont judge all canadians by saying we all think karla is a victim cause she is obvioulsy a total phsyco and almost no one agrees with letting her out
so kindly dont bash our country please because we could go apeshit on your country as well okay?
希望大家都會非常非常幸福~
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