The Church of Progressivism
Jeff Goldstein from Protein Wisdom responds to my article on liberals and lack of empathy:
Of course, to be fair, the “right” exhibits its share of intolerance — which, like that from the left, generally manifests in a kind of ostentatious public sanctimony. The difference is, for all the worry we consistently hear about the “religious right” threatening to turn the US into a theocracy, very rarely will we see any actual agitation for from mainstream conservatives to turn religious doctrine into state or federal law. Whereas the churches of environmentalism and government-mandated “charity” (which isn’t; charity tends not to be backed by fines and guns) have joined up, of late, into fortify the Church of Progressivism, which is very quickly becoming a de facto “official” church of the United States.
Labels: politics
posted by Helen at 1:35 PM
42 Comments:
"which is very quickly becoming a de facto “official” church of the United States."
One change, in place of "United States", I'd amend that to "government". The United States is its people, not its government. Government has become increasingly enamored of government-based solutions and control, not We the People. (at least outside of the bluer bits of blue states and college campuses, those places are full of folks afraid and disdainful of We the People)
What is meant by govt-mandated charity?
We know real churches from the fake ones: like 50% of our corporations,real churches pay no taxes yet get fire and police protection and the tax payer's expense.
There is intolerance from all over and to single out one or the other side is silly.
and isn`t federal law the will of god? you know, thou shalt not and all that....
...i could never understand how one could seperate church and state in a christian society.
Render unto Caeser, that which belongs to Caeser, and render unto God, that which belongs to God. A wise man said that Dr. Alistair. 8)
Actual Christians expect and understand that there are lost people, that there is real evil in the world, that God holds nations accountable for their choices. Actual Christians have read the Old Testament about theocracy and how poorly it worked. Actual Christians understand that the world is lost and not our home.
So no thank you to theocracy, but it is always a good time to ask God for forgiveness and work to become obedient to Him.
Trey
Or is it Ceaser??? LOL.
Trey
What is meant by govt-mandated charity?
Come now, fred. Welfare, the health care bill, SSI, and lots of other stuff is government mandated charity. I think most of us find a certain amount of this acceptable. But, what's it say about the charitability of someone who complains about churches getting fire and police protection yet don't pay taxes. Unless it's Amish or something similar all the members pay taxes. But, of course, the liberals believe they should determine where everyone else's money should go.
fred,
"like 50% of our corporations,real churches pay no taxes yet get fire and police protection and the tax payer's expense."
This is so silly I hesitate to respond, but I will due to the triumph of hope over experience.
1. You do realize that (especially today) many, many corporations are in the red, and that's why they aren't paying corporate income taxes?
(California, for one, has a silly law where a corporation has to pay taxes on revenues, even in the event of a loss, which just kills small businesses - but most people wouldn't find it strange that a company making negative profit is exempt from a tax on profits.)
2. Regardless of profit/loss, companies _do_ pay taxes through their spending - licensing fees, whatever taxes are associated with commercial real estate, sales taxes from buying products for the use of the business, and of course payroll and Medicare taxes on the wages they pay their employees.
fred - What of those people who pay no taxes?
A person who is wholly dependent effectively pays no taxes. Sure they may pay a tax when purchasing but because the money that they spent was given them by the government, they're simply recycling tax money, not paying any new taxes. In fact, I believe these people should be exempt from paying any taxes whatsoever as it is ludicrous to give the poor a pittance upon which to live and then demand some of it back.
But, to your point, should they be denied police and fire protection because they pay no taxes?
Going back to the post, I find it interesting that Mr. Goldstein finds it necessary to immediately drag out the religious right "to be fair." I've been hearing about this for more years than I can count and yet no one has forcibly taken my money to support a Christian church. Heck, most Christians I know differ enough in their views that I doubt they could agree on it.
Why the need to be fair? I don't feel the need to comment that "Jeff once took some paperclips from the office" when I call a bank robber a thief. It's long past time of being reasonable with these people.
Great post and thank you for pointing out Dr. Haidt. I had read some of his work and could not for the life of me remember his name or where I saw the work. I am now able to hide my memory failings a bit longer.
Jeff Goldstein usually has really excellent observations. He's a helluva catch wrestler, too.
Ms. Smith,
So you want kids to be more exposed to conservative and libertarian values? Encourage them to read more sci-fi. I say read, and not watch movies. Avatar, despite its beyond brilliant special effects, was a pile of steaming anti-capitalist, anti-technlogical, anti-American claptrap. A lot of written sci-fi is very libertarian. Not conservative, since with most of this stuff, the characters’ personal lives is their own business, just so long as it doesn’t prevent them from being heros.
Where to start? Try Allen Steele’s Coyote trilogy, David Weber’s Honor Harrington (the heroine’s society is very capitalist and freedom oriented) and Schism series. Also, though this might be a bit heavy going for high-schoolers, but not for college kids, is Neal Stephenson’s Baroque Cycle. It’s historical fiction, not sci-fi, but it gives a very lusty shout of approval for the development of modern science and capitalism back in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Also on the list should be two old standbys by the late, great Robert Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Time Enough for love. Also don’t forget the ORIGINAL Starship Troopers novel, not he comic-book kitsch movie, even though it was fun.
As for movies, the only ones I can think of right now are the first Matrix movie, and any of the Star Trek movies. I know a lot of conservatives think they promote a hidden socialist agenda, but they very heavily push the ideas of individual freedom and responsibility.
Michael G. Gallagher
Seoul, South Korea
Ms. Smith,
So you want kids to be more exposed to conservative and libertarian values? Encourage them to read more sci-fi. I say read, and not watch movies. Avatar, despite its beyond brilliant special effects, was a pile of steaming anti-capitalist, anti-technlogical, anti-American claptrap. A lot of written sci-fi is very libertarian. Not conservative, since with most of this stuff, the characters’ personal lives is their own business, just so long as it doesn’t prevent them from being heros.
Where to start? Try Allen Steele’s Coyote trilogy, David Weber’s Honor Harrington (the heroine’s society is very capitalist and freedom oriented) and Schism series. Also, though this might be a bit heavy going for high-schoolers, but not for college kids, is Neal Stephenson’s Baroque Cycle. It’s historical fiction, not sci-fi, but it gives a very lusty shout of approval for the development of modern science and capitalism back in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Also on the list should be two old standbys by the late, great Robert Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Time Enough for love. Also don’t forget the ORIGINAL Starship Troopers novel, not he comic-book kitsch movie, even though it was fun.
As for movies, the only ones I can think of right now are the first Matrix movie, and any of the Star Trek movies. I know a lot of conservatives think they promote a hidden socialist agenda, but they very heavily push the ideas of individual freedom and responsibility.
Michael G. Gallagher
Seoul, South Korea
Ms. Smith,
So you want kids to be more exposed to conservative and libertarian values? Encourage them to read more sci-fi. I say read, and not watch movies. Avatar, despite its beyond brilliant special effects, was a pile of steaming anti-capitalist, anti-technlogical, anti-American claptrap. A lot of written sci-fi is very libertarian. Not conservative, since with most of this stuff, the characters’ personal lives is their own business, just so long as it doesn’t prevent them from being heros.
Where to start? Try Allen Steele’s Coyote trilogy, David Weber’s Honor Harrington (the heroine’s society is very capitalist and freedom oriented) and Schism series. Also, though this might be a bit heavy going for high-schoolers, but not for college kids, is Neal Stephenson’s Baroque Cycle. It’s historical fiction, not sci-fi, but it gives a very lusty shout of approval for the development of modern science and capitalism back in the 17th and early 18th centuries. Also on the list should be two old standbys by the late, great Robert Heinlein, The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and Time Enough for love. Also don’t forget the ORIGINAL Starship Troopers novel, not he comic-book kitsch movie, even though it was fun.
As for movies, the only ones I can think of right now are the first Matrix movie, and any of the Star Trek movies. I know a lot of conservatives think they promote a hidden socialist agenda, but they very heavily push the ideas of individual freedom and responsibility.
Michael G. Gallagher
Seoul, South Korea
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The person who posts as under my name on other sites is not me. If you weren't such a fucking idiot
"...the liberals believe they should determine where everyone else's money should go."
That's sort of amusing, coming from the party that's been marching around with threatening signs the past year shouting about how tax dollas shouldn't pay for this or that.
I don't especially want a huge hunk of my paycheck to go to pay off that useless war Bush started, but you don't see me driving to NV to march over it, either. I don't think taxes should go to supporting abstinence-only sex ed, or the war on drugs, or a dozen other propositions I find useless or morally objectionable. But I don't threaten to start a civil war over it either.
You know why? Because I know we live in a civilzation and what I want and what you want might not be the same things. I know we have to find common ground.
I also know I'm probably talking to a brick wall here, but hey. I keep trying.
"like 50% of our corporations,real churches pay no taxes"
Corporations pay no taxes. They only collect them from people and pay them to the government ... by not paying stockholders a dividend, by paying employees less, by demanding lower prices from suppliers, by not investing in new plant and equipment, etc. All of which is bad for the economy.
I pay taxes and have gotten damned little for my money, so if s little goes to put fires out at churches - good.
"but you don't see me driving to NV to march over it, either."
That is why we are winning. Stay at home, everything is fine, nothing to get worked up about. Everything is just fine.
Trey
delagar said...
"...the liberals believe they should determine where everyone else's money should go."
That's sort of amusing, coming from the party that's been marching around with threatening signs the past year shouting about how tax dollas shouldn't pay for this or that.
I don't especially want a huge hunk of my paycheck to go to pay off that useless war Bush started, but you don't see me driving to NV to march over it, either. I don't think taxes should go to supporting abstinence-only sex ed, or the war on drugs, or a dozen other propositions I find useless or morally objectionable. But I don't threaten to start a civil war over it either.
Heh… That one about the “useless war Bush started” is always good for a little laugh no matter how often I hear it. It does tend to demonstrate the person making that statement not only has blinders on but an extremely short memory and as such should not be taken too seriously. As I recall, it was the U.N.’s war that the U.N. did not have the balls to actually have. I forget, how many U.N. resolutions did Iraq ignore and how many thousands of Iraq’ citizens did Saddam murder? How many times did Saddam kick out nuclear and weapons inspectors? Oh, and before you pull out that other tired old “but where were the WMDs?”, they were found too you just failed to notice because it was not front page news (wonder why). Munitions containing sarin-gas were found (http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15918) and only God knows how much of that stuff and more was moved to Syria before we got there. They had years to do it, again thanks to the ineffective U.N.
The other good one was that we were there for the oil but look how that worked out.
As to your other point, I don’t want my federal taxes going for ANYTHING except national defense. The most important person in the U.S. should be YOUR state governor, not the President of the U.S. That was how it was meant to be but not how it currently is. I hope that a side affect of Obamacare is that the states push for more of their rights back. As recent history has made very clear, smaller government is better for everyone. There is no product or service that the government can deliver better and cheaper than private business.
Oh, and other than that, Bush was only a fair President. He spent too much and he expanded government too much.
BTW, notice the sleight of hand of saying "the right" and "the religious right" then immediately falling back to mainstream conservatives.
These are TWO different groups that sometimes overlap.
The religious right is clamoring all the time to turn religious doctrine/dogma into law. Witness anti-sex toy laws, prohibition, sodomy laws, even age of consent and drinking laws. The fact that the left goes along with some of these, doesn't make the right less dogmatic in their goals and persistence.
When I listen to a lot of purely social conservatives, I simply hear anti-gay, anti-abortion liberals who believe in God.
"Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's; Render unto God what is God's"
Not religious, but if you think God made everything, how is it that any of it belongs to Caesar...?
Also, Technogypsy.... Do you do martial arts and live in Texas by any chance?
Caeser's face was on the coin.
Trey
Well, there is that...
And then there is the notion that we are made in God's image.
It's almost like Jesus is suggesting that Atlas shrug (well, not ATLAS, per se, you know, the whole pagan deity thing).
I guess it's one of those passages that can be taken and run with in a lot of different directions.
Joe -
Prohibition and the religious right? Give me a break. Prohibition was the work of a bunch of populist nanny-staters and incidentally one of the first "victories" of political feminism.
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Prohibition and the religious right? Give me a break.
You need to update your history lessons. The religious right was deeply involved in enacting prohibition. Without them, it simply would not have happened.
To say the religious right isn't interested in imposing its dogma on the populace is the height of ignorance. Examples run rampant through the country and world.
By their very nature, religions are obsessive compulsive about controlling people's lives, through force if necessary. Conservative religions are among the worse and most nasty.
Listen to Pat Robertson for two seconds and get back to me.
TO: All
RE: Jeff's Comment
Of course, to be fair, the “right” exhibits its share of intolerance.... -- Jeff Goldstein
....reminds me of the famous truism....
Tolerance is the virtue of having no convictions.
In other words....
....to each his own.
So....
....what do we do with those who believe in human sacrifice?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Hypocrisy be is nothing but 'good taste' for those without religion.]
TO: Joe
RE: Actually....
The religious right was deeply involved in enacting prohibition. Without them, it simply would not have happened. -- Joe
....I think it was WOMEN more than religion that had more of the impact. They may have been hiding behind 'religious' principles, but if you knew that Old Book better, you'd realize it—and what you're saying—was a lie.
Otherwise, why would Christ change water into wine? Or Paul tell a friend to drink wine? Or Lemel's mother's admonishment about strong drink?
Regards,
Chuck(le)
P.S. Ever see the classic silent movie Intolerance?
Notice how the early 20th Century women are behaving there?
"By their very nature, religions are obsessive compulsive about controlling people's lives, through force if necessary. Conservative religions are among the worse and most nasty."
Joe, you got issues that are clouding your perception of reality. Conservative Christians want abortion illegal and the word marriage saved for straight folks.
Put that list up against a week of what "progressives" want to control (1/6 of the economy for instance) and you, or at least anyone who can see clearly, will see who are the control freaks.
Trey
TO: TMink
RE: Heh
I doubt if Joe will listen. After all, he's a 'True Believer' of the classic form.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Progressive is a one-word oxymoron.]
P.S. Joe should read the NEXT thread here....
This comment has been removed by the author.
TMink, my original point was that Goldstein made the statement that the religious right has no interest in imposing it's dogma as law. That is demonstrably not true.
That in no way diminishes the aims and effects of liberal thinking and goals. It continually annoys me that anyone even argues that the sins of one side reduce the sins of the other. (The most recent arguments by the left "but Bush did it" is just as silly as when the right argued "but Clinton did it.")
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Well. The right wingers aren't particularly good at making their points of view into law (with a few notable exceptions) that sticks for any length of time in a global, connected society. Not that they don't want to, but culturally luck hasn't been particularly in their favor of late.
Hence my concern about the left, who seem to be much more skilled at crafting messages that inspire others to vote against my interests.
My theory is that the distance to the right from Lenin is inversely proportional to the distance a reasonable person can travel within a day. It really has more to do with the goods, services, and ideas that can be shipped across said distance. If you have good food, a good home, etc, you tend to lean left, whereas if you are living off the land, you tend to lean right (not you in particular, but you as in the typical person). It probably has to do with human tribal behavior back when we trying to avoid being eaten out on the savannah.
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