"When people are suicidal, their thinking is paralyzed..."
I often reflect on why people take their lives for financial or even job-related reasons. While waiting at the doctor's office yesterday, I read Reader's Digest and came across this quote from April 1930 entitled, "On Keeping Perspective:"
The quote made me think about the recent death of David Kellermann, acting chief financial officer of troubled U.S. mortgage giant Freddie Mac, who may have taken his life (a medical examiner is looking into the death). Often, like the quote above, people think that it is loss of money or perhaps, shame that causes people to kill themselves but it is much more than that: the way that people construe events can lead to a person taking his (usually) or her life.
Kay Redfield Jamison, in her book, Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide
makes some good points:
Which is why it is so important to get someone who is suicidal help to change their cognition. Change in thinking patterns can lead to a change in behavior.
There is something about the possession of wealth which is not good for the soul, perhaps. It places artificial value upon secondary things. A man losing a million metal tokens will put a revolver to his temple and pull the trigger. But he has lost nothing but money. He has deprived himself of life because misfortune has deprived him of luxuries.
--Clarence Budington Kelland, The American Magazine
The quote made me think about the recent death of David Kellermann, acting chief financial officer of troubled U.S. mortgage giant Freddie Mac, who may have taken his life (a medical examiner is looking into the death). Often, like the quote above, people think that it is loss of money or perhaps, shame that causes people to kill themselves but it is much more than that: the way that people construe events can lead to a person taking his (usually) or her life.
Kay Redfield Jamison, in her book, Night Falls Fast: Understanding Suicide
makes some good points:Psychological pain or stress alone--however great the loss or disappointment, however profound the shame or rejection--is rarely sufficient cause for suicide. Much of the decision to die is in the construing of events, and most minds, who are healthy, do not construe any event as devastating enough to warrant suicide. Stress and pain are relative, highly subjective in their experiencing and evaluation. Indeed, some people thrive on stress and are at sea without it: chaos and emotional upheaval are a comfortable part of their psychological lives....
In short, when people are suicidal, their thinking is paralyzed, their options appear spare or nonexistent, their mood is despairing, and hopelessness permeates their entire mental domain. The future cannot be separated from the present, and the present is painful beyond solace.....People seem to be able to bear or tolerate depression as long as there is the belief that things will improve. If that belief cracks or disappears, suicide becomes the option of choice.
Which is why it is so important to get someone who is suicidal help to change their cognition. Change in thinking patterns can lead to a change in behavior.
Labels: suicide
posted by Helen at 6:36 AM
44 Comments:
I think we should all consider that there might be more to this than the simple 'loss' of metal tokens. He was appointed last September as the head of 'Freddie Mac'. That's rather recent. Perhaps he realized that he might be made the fall guy for whatever future failings (or past failings) this institution might yet undergo. He perhaps is trying to avoid jail or worse by this act. Who knows. It's speculation, I know, but it certainly is the kinds of questions that authorities investigating his death ought to consider.
I agree with javadoug. It's not merely the loss of metal tokens. Some of these corporate guys/gals have a lot wrapped up with their positions: Status, Fulfillment, Self-Importance, Popularity, etc. They may not have much else going on in their life. The idea that the may be viewed ase a public failure can be devastating. What makes no sense to you and I, makes perfect sense to them.
Change in thinking patterns can lead to a change in behavior.Amen. That sentence summarizes the difference between psychology today and psychology forty years ago; forty years ago, it would have read "Change in behavior can lead to a change in thinking patterns." I think that that's not totally untrue; psychologists forty years ago (behaviorists), however would have denied the true of Dr. Helen's sentence. God bless Martin Seligman, Dr. Helen, and those like them.
Cham said "What makes no sense to you and I, makes perfect sense to them."
I agree. I think that's Dr. Helen's point. The person committing suicide has, somehow, locked into a mindset where suicide is the correct answer (whatever the question). They're mind is locked (paralyzed) to this process of thought (cognition).
Some external actor needs to help them break out of the broken thought process.
Don't know about this specific case--might have had nothing to do with his job at all--but in general, I suspect that what often pushes people over the edge in a career-disaster situation is not the disaster itself, but a spouse's reaction to it. Very often, a wife will react to a husband's career setback with extreme hostility directed toward him, and will make his life a living hell. This happens at all levels of society. The rage of a woman scorned is nothing compared with the rage of a woman thwarted in her financial and career demands.
There are exceptions, of course, but the pattern of anger toward the husband is a very common one.
Helen, sounds like you might have been reading the same Reader's Digest I was reading yesterday. The article about making success out of failure discussed a "fixed" mind set versus a growing or learning mind set.
Using that frame of reference, it is very important to change the cognition of a suicidal person, who is in a fixed mind set and sees no way out, to the learning/growing mind set where positive possibilities are found. I agree that too often people get locked into a single perspective, suicidal or not, and need to open up themselves to all the other possibilities in the world.
Pointing the finger at the wife for being angry seems to me to be simplistic and unfair. Ultimately, the fault is with the person who commits suicide; it's disturbing to see a comment like this that blames someone else for one person's selfish actions.
It's about the response of the one at whom the anger is directed, not the one who is directing the anger. The real question is, what is it that makes some people react by killing themselves and others by saying "screw you then" and going to start over somewhere else? Blaming a spouse or anyone else for pushing someone over that edge isn't terribly helpful.
...or he found out something damaging, confronted the perps, and it was made to look like suicide.
You're only paranoid if they aren't after you.
"Change in thinking patterns can lead to a change in behavior."
Yeah, but that's one hard thing to accomplish.
Some people get the idea that it's happening to them rather than they're part of a scenario. A directed universe kinda thing.
Once that sets, any attempt at support, convincing, reasoning, therapy, etc is seen as the universe's further attempts.
Hard to reach through that.
Is there a cohesive identity crisis here. Can someone be so immersed in false character identity that failure would cause them to hold the value of death as an alternative to self identifying, or corrective behavior. What are the directives in changing "thinking patterns?"
Thanks.
I recall a quote from one of the few survivors of the plunge off of the Golden Gate Bridge. He said that as soon as he'd let go, he realized that all of his problems were solveable.
Bill
http://willstuff.wordpress.com
did someone mention Vince Foster?
just asking
I recall a quote from one of the few survivors of the plunge off of the Golden Gate Bridge. He said that as soon as he'd let go, he realized that all of his problems were solveable.I've heard suicide described as a "permanent solution to a temporary problem."
Cham..."Some of these corporate guys/gals have a lot wrapped up with their positions: Status, Fulfillment, Self-Importance, Popularity, etc"
And some of these corporate guys/gals feel a sense of responsibility to employees, shareholders, suppliers, etc, and feel horrible if they believe they've let them down.
Do we really want people in important positions who don't have a heavy emotional investment in what they're doing?
Ern wrote: "God bless Martin Seligman, Dr. Helen, and those like them."
Amen Ern. The interesting thing to me is that many contemporary psychosnalysts now base their work on relationships and attachment theory. Similarly, a hot area of interest for cognitive therapists is relational.
Trey
"Very often, a wife will react to a husband's career setback with extreme hostility directed toward him, and will make his life a living hell. This happens at all levels of society. The rage of a woman scorned is nothing compared with the rage of a woman thwarted in her financial and career demands."
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Absolutely. I've seen these pigs too, and her "financial and career demands" are most likely what she expects HIM to do, not what she is doing.
It's just unreal that men play their role in that silly game. She's a demanding pig ---- period. Full stop. Why the hell did you marry her or get married at all?
That's quite the story.
Possibly off-topic, but I am reminded of a scene in the John Wayne movie "The High and the Mighty" where a couple people are talking about The Duke's character; he had been piloting a plane that crashed, killing his wife and son. One person observes: "He's the only man I've ever known brave enough not to commit suicide."
"Tether said... ...Absolutely. I've seen these pigs too...."
You must run in totally different circles than I ever have, or anybody I know. I hope to God I can keep it that way.
Laura, seriously! I don't know anyone like that! (If I did, I don't suppose I'd have a whole lot to do with them if it was avoidable).
Having survived two serious suicide attempts (3 oz. of crystal Draino with a 12 hour wait to go to the hospital (I was stubborn) and two years later, pulling the trigger on a loaded 12 gauge in my mouth), I do not think anything but time and a bit of luck (the poison was untreatable by the time I went in, but when my system shut down they were able to revive me and then later, the gun did not fire). As I learned that my disability was not soluble, and apparently it was not my time to die, I began to look at the options.
It is still rough, sometimes. But I have completely walked away from suicide. How that really happened, other than time and luck as I have said is beyond me in absolutes. I feel half way between life and death, sometimes without any sense of life itself, or time, or even physical pain. (something I call accidental transcendentalism)
Perhaps it has simply been that I have made peace with being less, with not having a career, with having a limited chance at the American Dream given my capacities, with having little ability to enjoy even the things I like having no energy to go out, get up, or stay awake to do so, and knowing that I will probably never be able to find a wife and begin a family.
Though, in time, as I have come to realize religion, too, I have found some strength there. That has helped more than anything else, if it came later in my experiences. As far as medical intervention, it cannot and did not change or help me to change, I am sure. If anything, at times, it merely kept me from the tools which I could use to cause my death. But people (friends and family), yes, they can and have helped to push me toward suicide or advised me more wisely toward medical intervention. A hateful wife would probably have lead to my death. A woman who chooses a man for his wealth or success or his glory will never be satisfied with less, and if she is too old to trade up, yeah, that would have been bad.
I am suspicious about this suicide, even if they find the death was "definitively suicide". The guy was riding the whistleblower line, and he was doing that with both the corporate and the government as the bad guys. In a time where the line has blurred beyond recognition between government and corporate, that aspect itself is an indication of the danger to any such men. The Clintons are back, as ghostwriters? Yeah, and the corpses are just beginning to pile up.
The guy was working his ass off. He was honestly and truly trying to do what he could to patch the holes in this insuperable situation. If anyone was due an 800K+ bone, it was David Kellermann. Perhaps he was truly a boy scout. And not only is there nothing wrong with that, this world sure could use a lot more of them.
The very administration he was working under was going to give him that bone, while at the same time, speaking out of the other side of its mouth about how bones and those that take them, are evil.
The very people responsible for this have suffered no consequences, still call the shots, still live and work inside the beltway, are still raping the populace, and are still blaming everyone under the sun except themselves. And they don't give a shit about David Kellermann.
He knew things we don't know, and probably never will. And the way things are shaping up, I'm not so sure any guess I would care to muster is beyond the realm of possibility. The 90MM and 27MM respective bones his predecessors received for a job poorly done was hush money. That's how I see it. Totally different from the bone a Jack Welch (spelling) would have received for a job well done on his watch.
And like Quasimodo, I still can't figure out how Vince Foster shot himself in the head, yet managed to throw the pistol 20 feet away.
David said:
Do we really want people in important positions who don't have a heavy emotional investment in what they're doing?If they are going to commit suicide, or kill their families when things go wrong, absolutely not. The growth of my money isn't worth other people's pain. I'll happily take a low-growth money market or CD if it means I can sleep well at night and everyone gets to live a fulfilling life on account of it.
Laura sez: "You must run in totally different circles than I ever have, or anybody I know. I hope to God I can keep it that way."
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Open your eyes (figuratively) and take another look around you.
JG. I am 48 years old and I don't really need your patronizing attempts to educate me as to how people are.
If you are looking for shallow gold-diggers, I'm sure you'll find them. Since you seem to enjoy scolding women for being that way, you probably have that down to an art. I have no interest in people like that, or people who want that, think it's interesting, or are drawn to it. As I said, you who seem to know women who are like that run in different circles than I do and I hope to keep it that way.
People select the society they associate with. Some people acknowledge that fact and others extrapolate from their tiny selected group to the world at large.
Hateful spouses of either sex are a scourge, of course. A loving and supportive spouse of either sex is a wonderful thing.
Cham...."If they are going to commit suicide, or kill their families when things go wrong, absolutely not"..of course. But your earlier comment:
"Some of these corporate guys/gals have a lot wrapped up with their positions: Status, Fulfillment, Self-Importance, Popularity, etc"
did not, as I read it, recognize that much of the pain of high-profile failure stems, in many if not most cases, from a feeling of letting other people down..not only from ego needs like the ones you mentioned.
When it comes to adults, I'm hesitant to broadly blame spouses for suicides. I would think that suicidal teenagers feel very trapped and powerless to do anything. The parents of the only teenager I know who committed suicide were "good" parents but created an environment of unreasonable expectations and criticism.
For the few minutes that I've watched Housewifes of Beverly Hills, I'm astounded by the sense of entitlement and narcissism of some of the women living in luxury most of us never witness, let alone experience. If I were their husband I would gladly give up half my wealth to send them packing.
David sez (responding to Cham): "... did not, as I read it, recognize that much of the pain of high-profile failure stems, in many if not most cases, from a feeling of letting other people down..not only from ego needs like the ones you mentioned."
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You don't need a high-profile job to provide reasonable food, clothing and shelter to a sit-at-home spouse or kids.
If the "feeling of letting other people down" involves the fact that the high-maintenance wife can't buy her 758th pair of expensive shoes that she will never wear, I have the feeling that vanity and ego needs are more likely to be involved.
"For the few minutes that I've watched Housewifes of Beverly Hills, I'm astounded by the sense of entitlement and narcissism of some of the women living in luxury most of us never witness, let alone experience. If I were their husband I would gladly give up half my wealth to send them packing."
I suspect that those women's husbands picked them out for a reason and want them to be that way. The term "trophy wife" comes to mind. A frugal or even moderately conservative woman wouldn't be a blip on their radar screens b/c there wouldn't be the ego boost they get from "look at this entitled princess that I am able to keep". Like most things, this is a two-way street.
At least the Freddie CFO had the courtesy not to take his family with him. I can see how certain mindsets could lead to suicide, in fact it is actually ingrained in some cultures. But what causes a person to cross over and murder his family or other innocent victims as well?
To follow up on my last comment, I had a friend who decided, in the midst of the last recession, that it would be a good idea to kill his family and then himself. Fortunately he was talked out of it and no one was hurt, at least physically.
But during the episode he kept saying that since he couldn't support them in the lifestyle which they were "supposed" to live.
His wife was saying "It's ok, I have a Masters Degree, I am a teacher, I supportedmyself for years teaching, and I can just go back and teach again." His reply was that it would be degrading for the family to live on a teacher's salary, therefore they all had to die. Her reply was "No, really, we'll be fine, and besides I can always borrow money from my mother." To which he replied that her mother didn't have enough resources to support them all, so they all had to die.
This went on for hours, but finally the police got him to let them go, and about an hour later, he surrendered.
What was interesting after the whole incident was over, was that I found I wasn't at all surprised that he did it. Somewhere in the back of my mind I had known he might do such a thing, but I had never consciously thought of it.
Great post Dr. H.--it is easy to blame the situation and not consider the psychological root.
Did it ever occur to the optimist types(Dr. Helen) that some situations have no hope? Like if I god-forbid ended up a quadruple amputee, I would want to end my life. You could not convince me that there was something wrong with my cognition. You gotta call a spade a spade. However, just losing luxuries is not reason enough to off yourself.
Laura wrote: " A loving and supportive spouse of either sex is a wonderful thing."
Amen sister.
Tret
JG...when I referred to "the feeling of letting other people down" in this context, I was referring to the employees, shareholders, suppliers, etc of the organization that the individual is responsible for. Many executives do take these responsibilities very seriously.
"JG...when I referred to "the feeling of letting other people down" in this context, I was referring to the employees, shareholders, suppliers, etc of the organization that the individual is responsible for. Many executives do take these responsibilities very seriously."
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OK - I can see that a bit.
You have to remember, though, that many executives are where they are at precisely BECAUSE they don't have a conscience, and I'll give you an example:
A lot of people have trouble firing other employees when they are asked to do so by upper management. They don't move up in the hierarchy. The people who move up think it's great fun to fire other people. Companies frequently hire a new CEO - sometimes with the internal nickname "the chainsaw" or the "new broom" or the like - to clean house when a downsizing is necessary.
And the cynic in my also thinks that outward expressions that executives of this stripe have of pity for all of the laid-off people are kind of about the executive himself - he is such an important guy and has such responsibility and power in his hands.
I guess in the end, a discussion like this starts to resemble a discussion about whether police officers are corrupt and in it for themselves (because of the possibility of bullying other people around) or not. And the only answer is that some definitely are and some definitely are not and you don't know exactly what the proportion is.
I rather suspect that the incidence of psychopaths (sociopaths) among top executives is higher than you would find in the general public. I think that statement is true.
Tret, you changed your nick-name?
Humor!
A well-known example of top management that appeared at first to be benevolent and caring towards its employees, but wasn't in reality, is obviously Enron.
The difference between these top executives including some Harvard grads, and the rest of the general population is that rest of us have had failures in our life. We get rejected from jobs, fired from jobs, rejected by lovers and rejected by colleges. We become big boys and girls and learn to deal with it, pretty soon it isn't the fancy job or the big house that toots our horn, but a nice sunset, a small project completed and watching our children thrive.
Again, I'm no psychologist, but remember, I'm the one with the nutty siblings and parents that think Ivy League is the only college acceptable, and those same folks only believe in having the top job at the top bank making top dollar is the only way to go in life. So I can say with reasonable confidence I know something about this crowd.
These types become risk averse. My daddy once told me to never ask a question unless you already know the answer. Meaning, never ever fail or show anyone that you are weak. You don't study 3 hours for a test, you study 100 hours so that you are sure to get an A+. You don't apply to college unless you get 5 powerful and rich alumni to write recommendation letters for you at the college of your choice. You don't interview for a job, you get people you know at the country club talk to the CEO of the bank who will ensure your employment.
If you look right, dress right and say the right thing at the right time all the time you can get pretty far for a very long time. Unfortunately, the down side of all this is you never learn to fail. So when you end up over your head in debt, or your big bank is losing money, or people whose money you've been managing (and losing) want their money back, the only reasonable option in your mind is to kill yourself and your family.
BTW, my nephew is enjoying his college acceptances. Which one should he pick: Harvard, Yale or Princeton? This nightmare of a cycle continues.
cham: Harvard
Wow, Cham.
My mom heard a moderately wealthy and connected person of her acquaintance say something heartless once and she said to me later, "If that's what being rich does to you, then, God, keep me poor."
Good advice on coping with a career disaster when in a leadership position from Field Marshal William Slim, who commanded British forces in Burma during WWII:
"The only test of generalship is success, and I had succeeded in nothing that I had attempted...Defeat is bitter. Bitter to the common soldier, but trebly bitter to his general. The soldier may comfort himself with the thought that, whatever the result, he has done his duty faithfully and steadfastly, but the commander has failed in his duty if he has not won victory--for that is his duty. He has no other comparable to it. He will go over in his mind the events of the campaign. 'Here,' he will think, 'I went wrong; here I took counsel of my fears when I should have been bold; there I should have waited to gather strength, not struck piecemeal; at such a moment I failed to grasp opportunity when it was presented to me.' He will remember the soldiers whom he sent into the attack that failed and who did not come back. he will recall the look in the eyes of men who trusted him. 'I have failed them,' he will say to himself, 'and failed my country!' He will see himself for what he is--a defeated general. In a dark hour he will turn on himself and question the very foundations of his leadership and his manhood.
And then he must stop! For, if he is ever to command in battle again, he must shake off these regrets and stamp on them, as they claw at his will and his self-confidence. He must beat off these atacks he delivers against himself, and cast out the doubts born of failure. Forget them, and remember only the lessons to be learnt from defeat--they are more than from victory."
Fine quote David.
Trey
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