Monday, April 06, 2009

"We are now a Nation filled with overgrown adolescents used to getting whatever we desire."

Says blogger Shrinkwrapped in an insightful post on Narcissism, Ideology and Mass Murder:

People with Narcissistic pathology never recognize their own culpability for problems. It is too painful and intolerable. The Narcissist has a damaged self. When the environment (esp other people) support his self esteem, he does relatively well. He may be charming and charismatic and appear to be self assured and in command of himself. However, should the other fail him the pain of the assault on his self esteem is destabilizing. The Narcissist reacts to failure with terrible shame which evokes rage. The rage, if held within, leads to despair; suicidal depression is a danger at those times. When the rage is directed at the object who is imagined to have caused the humiliation (or has actually caused the humiliation, as by a lover's rejection) the outcome can be murderous. Often enough the rage is inchoate and the objects include those who have caused his pain (America, the Jews, women, and the police as symbols of the frustrating society) and murder-suicide is the outcome.


Read more here.

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51 Comments:

Blogger MikeT said...

A lot of the narcissism can be blamed on the schools through their aggressive promotion of self-esteem and "gifted and talented programs." The reason we have never seen so many narcissists killing others is because no society has ever produced narcissists with the raw efficiency of modern America.

4:25 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Mike - I agree with you except for the "gifted and talented programs" part. My kids, especially my youngest daughter would be bored to tears without these programs. Being forced to sit in classrooms with people who learn much slower than you, including some who are not capable of learning at higher level, would be torture.

That said, every time I hear of building self esteem, I shudder. The best way I know to build self esteem is to never talk about it but rather work hard, perform well and help out others whenever possible.

4:46 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Self esteem, like respect, cannot be given. It must be earned, and either unearned is known as false and hollow by the one given it - which explains the overwhelming touchiness and angry posture of said recipient.

5:12 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Evan M. Thomas said...

I've found that "narcissism" is a buzz word for "non-christian" often used by religious people. But I don't understand why narcissism is so demonized.

Being honest about your selfishness is a lot better then bottled up hypocrisy - which can lead to guilt, depression and acting act.

I just do not see how living in a society were you can "get anything you want" is a net-negative.

5:28 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Chatelaine said...

Especially our new president.

5:50 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

"But I don't understand why narcissism is so demonized."

Evan, you don't understand why a thought process like "I'm miserable so I'm going to kill a bunch of people who haven't done anything to me, just to express myself" is demonized?

6:20 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Roman Wolf said...

Mr. Thomas,

You seem to mistake economic self-interest with the psychological term of narcissism.

Self-interest means doing the thing that is good for you. Narcissism(and one of the psychologists can chime in with a more complete definition) means that you basically see the world as revolving around yourself. Without ever realizing that each and every person is sovereign over themselves. Basically you see think other people exist purely for you.

Now, that's far from complete and scientific but I think I'll do for now.

7:13 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Plus, Evan, there is a difference between selfishness and narcissism. One can be quite selfish without being narcissistic.

8:03 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger David said...

MikeT...I think the gifted & talented *programs* are a good idea, but I think the *name* is harmful. It implies that entry to the program is based on something you *are* rather than something you *do*.

How about "academic achievement program," or something like that?

Peter Drucker asserted that it is always harmful to judge people on their potential rather than their performance. He was talking about promotion systems in business, but the same point applies here.

8:20 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

David, I think "academic achievement program" implies that the kids who don't get in just aren't trying hard enough. There is such a thing as innate intelligence. Schools don't like to say they "track" but in reality they have to if one-third of the kids aren't in over their heads and another third marking time, or all of the kids aren't bored out of their minds. I think the problem comes in when GAT is thought to imply superiority as human beings. We humans do love to stratify ourselves.

8:47 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Evan M. Thomas said...

I simply find this statement hyperbole: "We are now a Nation filled with overgrown adolescents used to getting whatever we desire." And then connecting that sentence with narcissism. They share no relationship at all.

You can point to murderers throughout history and they prove nothing outside of the defects of the human condition. Random horrible mass murders do not provide any evidence that we are a nation of adolescents.

And even if it was true, why would it be a bad thing? Being adolescent is certainly not a precondition for murder. In fact, since I was growing up in the 80's crime, drug use, teen pregnancy are all down. Maybe we used to be a nation of thugs?

I get tired of reading that horrible crime x = the nation is all going to hell. This story has been in print for the last 5,000 years. And if we are still around in 5,000 years, it will still be in print.

9:13 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Michael Ryan said...

Ah! I think this personality description also applies to this case in Alaska.

10:07 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

PJ wrote: "Self esteem, like respect, cannot be given."

Well said. It must be earned.

Trey

10:27 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Evan wrote: "I've found that "narcissism" is a buzz word for "non-christian" often used by religious people. But I don't understand why narcissism is so demonized."

I must know more narcissistic Christians than you do. 8) The narcissism that is criticized is different from self-esteem in that it is pathological and can border on delusional. Pathological narcissism prevents people from empathy and satisfying relationships.

"Being honest about your selfishness is a lot better then bottled up hypocrisy - which can lead to guilt, depression and acting act."

I disagree. Selfishness is not a good thing, maybe enlightened self-interest is, but selfishness is definitionally bad.

"I just do not see how living in a society were you can "get anything you want" is a net-negative."

There is no society where you can get anything you want. Believing in one is delusional and leads to acting out.

Trey

10:33 PM, April 06, 2009  
Blogger Major-General said...

I guess Eddie Izzard is wrong when he says narcissism is the ability to look yourself in the mirror and say "Damn, I'd shag me."

Evan:

"Narcissism" as a buzz word for "non-Christian"? I am curious what circles you are in because I've never heard anyone use it like that.

Other than our gracious host, just how many Psychologist are here?

1:24 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Roman Wolf said...

Eddie Izzard's usage is more closely related to the myth where the name comes from.

And if I recall, Trey is a Psychologist(or some sort of Mental Health Worker).

2:28 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Carteach0 said...

I teach a class of high school seniors. Each year, the class tends more towards a group of whining narcissists who have been trained to the role. For years, it's been demonstrated to them that they will pass in life, without regard to their actions, just because they 'are special'. They can can't do anything bad enough that the punishment will be onerous..... because each and every one of them is a special person with his own rules.

Narcissists can be built, and much of our modern school system is designed to do exactly that.

Teachers never, ever, get in trouble for giving good grades.
On the other hand... every single bad grade must be explained and justified, and the answer may never be "Little Bobby just didn't do the work"

Little Bobby has been paying attention..... and he has learned.

6:31 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger mark hays said...

I notice you only refer to men here as being Narcissistic- you have it completely backwards. 80% of women in the U.S. are Narcissistic- completely shut off from reality and all accountability.

What you are unwilling to accept in your own Narcissistic denial is these men have been driven to this by the insanity of our society, a society that Feminism & illegal DV & divorce laws have helped to create.

Maybe it's time you all started re-thinking the whole process of making men's lives a living hell through Feminist upside down think and illegal laws such as must arrest DV laws. (I noticed one of those incidents involved a DV call).

Hey Ladies, here's a tip- maybe you should stop being monsters from Hell- treating your husbands like garbage and emotionally abusing them- maybe then you won't get blown away with an assault rifle. Think you can handle that? Or is that just too complicated for you? It seems to have been so far.

You see, as a man, this is the reason I don't myself go around making other men pissed off and pushing all their buttoms- it's called 'smart.'

You see, while murder may in fact be illegal in every possible sense, it only takes two seconds to do & police response time can be anywhere from 11-20 minutes. This means you cannot destroy your husband's life & threaten to take away his house & children and simply expect the police to be your personal bouncers. Follow the same rules as the driver handbook has on pedestrians: 'While pedestrians may have the right a way, we strongly suggest you do not walk in front of a moving vehicle.' In other words, you won't be collecting much in a civl suit when your DEAD. Starting to get it yet? For some reaosn women are extremely stupid in this area of human interaction.

Look at the bright side! You'll have to act human, Ladies! It's going to take a lot of getting used to and an intense re-education, but I know you have it in you. Every dark cloud has a silver lining. It's that nice?

6:56 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Well, Mr. Hays, you might be right. Both Mr. Wong in Binghamton, NY and Mr. Harrison in Graham, WA felt they were justified and rightful in killing multiple people because their wives left them. These killers' actions made total sense to them and clearly those actions make complete sense to you too.

7:34 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger MB said...

Cham,

Although I don't fully buy Mark's explanation, I do partially:

Men in the last several decades have been committing suicide at about 3 or 4 times the rate of women. I think more of them are just deciding to take some more people with them.

Men can get people to care about them (or at least pretend to ...) if they can produce something. Otherwise, no one gives a rip.

It's not the same with women, and I would venture to say that women are catered to much more by society, sometimes it's almost shielding them from reality.

7:50 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Men can get people to care about them (or at least pretend to ...) if they can produce something. Otherwise, no one gives a rip.

I don't buy into that at all. Men can get people to care about them if they choose carefully the people with whom they surround themselves and then be decent honest caring individuals. Just like everyone else.

8:07 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

I would take a middle position between Cham and MB. While I agree with Cham that picking good folks to surround ourselves is key, I think most of us men judge ourselves by our productivity, and certainly others do as well. I struggle with overvaluing myself in terms of my earnings and productivity, and hear it a LOT from my male patients.

At the same time, I feel satisfied and proud when I take care of business, and have some comfort in that role. I have some insulation from the down side in my wife, a loving Christian woman who also appreciates me as a father and goofy friend and romantic partner.

As I write this, it occurs to me that in my family, I put the most pressure on myself as a wage earner and producer, and I am usually OK with that.

And yes, I am a psychologist too.

Trey

8:27 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

TMink:

But this is how YOU view yourself. Your wife, if she is as good a woman as you say she is, would care about you no matter what, assuming you remain a decent, loving, caring partner. You've convinced yourself that earning and producing is important to you for you. MB's comment was about what it would take to get people to care about a man.

8:35 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

"But this is how YOU view yourself."

Cham, that is the point.

I am completely sure that I am not the only man who feels this way. Part of the trouble with men being viewed as success objects is internal, part is external. I wrote what I wrote to show the complexity of the issue.

Understanding that complexity allows me to see the validity in both your and MB's posts. Understanding the complexity would also facilitate more of a dialogue between people who hold those views.

And you go to far in saying that I have convinced myself, it is once again, more complex than that. I think men are hardwired to test ourselves and show concern about how we measure up against our peers. I think we are hard wired to want to get things done.

It gives us satisfaction, motivation to improve, and is good for society. The underbelly of that is when our ability to provide, produce and do is compromised, even for good reasons, we can struggle.

My wife had some surgery on her foot, and I have been taking care of her and my jobs for the last two weeks. As part of that, I have not billed like I usually do. My income will hit a hiccup, and I will feel bad about it if I let myself. Instead, I hold on to my values of being a loving husband and father and accept that I made a good decision in putting my families needs ahead of my desire to make money at my job.

But the struggle is there, and to say it is mine alone, or simply my choice, is overly reductionistic. If it were mine alone, I would not be surrounded by men who have the same concerns and feelings. And I know from my friendships and professional work, that this is a common issue for men.

But it is complex. Honest.

Trey

9:58 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Cham said...

Tmink:

I believe you and aren't arguing with you. Your worth to yourself is internal. But are women responsible for making you feel good, and helping you deal with your issues? Women have enough challenges with their own issues and obligations. If I were the wife of Mr. Wong or Mr. Harrison I would have been running for the hills just like they did. If Mr. Harrison had bothered to learn how to use the GPS locator feature of his phones, his wife would be dead too, however, he had already killed the daughter that knew how to use it before he went looking for the wife to kill her. These guys were blaming women for their internal challenges. Expect more of the same unless attitudes change.

There is a consequence to all this unbridled mass killing. I would like to give special mention and special commendation to the coworkers at Mr. Wong's former job in Binghamton, NY. They recognized his negative angry behavior and obsession with guns causing them to express concern about their own safety to their employer. It probably was just enough to get Mr. Wong laid off and possibly save their own lives, as Mr. Wong could have easily shot them had he still worked there.

I expect that angry negative narcissistic people that enjoy collecting guns and practicing shooting are going to see much greater concern about them from their neighbors, coworkers and family members. I know I will.

10:51 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Cham, sorry I misunderstood. If we were talking face to face I know I would not get it wrong so often.

"But are women responsible for making you feel good, and helping you deal with your issues?"

No, they are not. Now it is smart for me to be kind and supportive toward the important women in my life, and I would say to the good people I come into contact with. And I would say the same for the ladies.

I think the interesting thing is how to seperate the gun collectors like my cousin who is not an angry guy and the people who are arming themselves for mass murder.

That one stumps me.

Thanks for being patient with me when I misunderstand. You are good that way, and I appreciate it.

Trey

11:25 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Vicki said...

By accident I have dated a couple of narcissists and their behavior is different from the selfish.

Both thought they were extremely unique & unlike most people, one even said people should call him GOD. The other very intelligent, has several weapons, uses them well, and is quite angry about losing his job. I no longer see him, but hope he is self-serving enough to not go ballistic.

There is no empathy for others with a narcissist. They don't care about other peoples feeling or problems. Your place in life is purely to suppport them.

There's a lot of pentup anger, rage, and shame in these people. I can see how it could explode.

11:44 AM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger dicentra63 said...

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not the result of being over-praised, it's the result of traumatic undervaluation during childhood.

NPDs were taught by their caretakers that they were worthless, unlovable, stupid, and a waste of space.

To shield themselves from the unbearable pain, the children construct a false image of themselves in which they are exactly the opposite: the MOST lovable, the MOST important, and the MOST intelligent.

This false image crystallizes in adolescence, and from then on, it's highly unlikely that they'll ever change. The amount of therapy required to undo a personality disorder is immense, and NPDs never believe that they even HAVE a problem, much less need therapy.

I was raised by a narcissist who was raised by a narcissist. They are very empty people inside, lacking empathy toward others and not having the least bit of insight into their own culpability, as Shrink said.

Being self-centered, which is acquired as a result of too much praise and garden-variety overindulgence, is a wholly different phenomenon.

2:08 PM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

Mark reminds me of the male and female dingbats I had to listen to back in Memphis telling me that Mary Winkler's husband "needed killing".

I vaguely remember back when women's magazines and such talked earnestly about the male ego, and how fragile it is, (infantilizing men in the process of course,) and how women need to nurture and protect it. Then some pop psychology came along and basically said that everybody is responsible for his or her own attitudes and feelings and so forth and I thought that was a vast improvement. Yes, we should be nice to each other, kind and tenderhearted and thoughtful and empathetic, but nobody can MAKE another mentally healthy adult person have a good or a bad self-image. No one, male or female, needs to be outsourcing this stuff.

7:03 PM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Dicentra, please accept my congratulations on a wonderful, informative post. Please also accept my condolences on what you lived through. And finally, please accept my admiration at making it through with such a measured and informed perspective.

God bless you.

Trey

11:17 PM, April 07, 2009  
Blogger br549 said...

I have heard that treating personality disorders is an almost insuperable task. Watching a loved one whose disorder grew until it exploded was painful and at times frightening. Not being able to do a thing about it was hard so very hard to handle, and remains so. I mean, you can't even give a kidney, it just won't help. And finally realizing you just have to turn and walk away, man, that was a failure I just don't know how to live down.

6:03 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

br49, been there, done that, sold the t shirt to pay for the lawyers. In the end, I had to hold on to the question "Did you give the marriage a chance to succeed? Were you willing and able to sacrifice some of your happiness to keep the family together?"

I had to focus on my effort rather than the results.

Funny topic, I had a nightmare last night. My wonderful wife died, and I tried to reconcile with the previous Ms. She was being insufferable, but I felt compelled to remarry in the dream. I kept asking "What do you need to make this work" and she kept avoiding me and the question. Then one of my triplets came into the room and asked for something and the former Ms. gave my child a look that would peel paint. I asked myself "What the frack are you doing? She hates kids, they are needy." I turned away and left, and then of course the former Ms. followed me out the room begging me to take her back. I kept walking.

I hate nightmares.

Trey

9:42 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger mark hays said...

"Mark reminds me of the male and female dingbats I had to listen to back in Memphis telling me that Mary Winkler's husband "needed killing"."

Mary Winkler and your 'dingbats' are the product of the very Feminism that creates the hostile environment. Apparently the irony of your example is a little over your own head.

"I vaguely remember back when women's magazines and such talked earnestly about the male ego, and how fragile it is, (infantilizing men in the process of course,) and how women need to nurture and protect it. Then some pop psychology came along and basically said that everybody is responsible for his or her own attitudes and feelings and so forth and I thought that was a vast improvement. Yes, we should be nice to each other, kind and tenderhearted and thoughtful and empathetic, but nobody can MAKE another mentally healthy adult person have a good or a bad self-image. No one, male or female, needs to be outsourcing this stuff.

Why are you trying to twist the conversation into someone MAKING someone a mentally healthy adult in a relationship? It's simple- don't push your husband's buttons & emotionally abuse him. You know what it says.

That's pretty devious of you & means you cannot be trusted- someone I would immediately reject for a potential relationship. Also makes me wonder why you would want to divert attention from female emotional abuse... making because you are the very type who is emotionally abusive... that's what it means.

9:53 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

"Apparently the irony of your example is a little over your own head."

No, apparently it is over yours.

"someone I would immediately reject for a potential relationship."

Believe me, it is purely mutual.

10:16 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

Let me go back and break this down.

There is NO EXCUSE for violence between two people, unless it is physical self-defense or to prevent a third party from being hurt.

I don't believe the crap Winkler said about her husband's emotional abuse, I think the stuff was about to hit the fan with the bank wanting to talk to her and her husband about her Nigerian email financial disaster and she didn't want to face it or him. But even if every single thing she said about him in her trial was true, she could have walked away. There was no excuse for her to kill him.

And there is no excuse for male-on-female domestic violence either. Emotional buttons, my hind foot. Deal with it like an adult or walk away.

10:33 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger TMink said...

Laura wrote: "I don't believe the crap Winkler said about her husband's emotional abuse,"

Well, she DID say he made her wear a blonde wig and high heels. High heels hurt to look at, much less wear. (Prominent eye roll inserted here.)

Laura, I got what you meant, I think most of us did. Carry on!

Trey

10:48 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger MB said...

"Apparently the irony of your example is a little over your own head."

No, apparently it is over yours.

"someone I would immediately reject for a potential relationship."

Believe me, it is purely mutual.

------------------------

Extremely powerful rhetoric in the "I-am-mirror-you-are-glue" class of argumentation.

11:02 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

MB, I didn't mean for it to be powerful rhetoric, but rather a very accurate exchange of information. See follow-up.

11:36 AM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

Thanks, Trey.

11:36 AM, April 08, 2009  
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4:49 PM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger tomcal said...

Finally some victims fight back. Believe it or not, it is extremely difficult to hit a moving target at close range with a gun.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iB439s8eRe_375V3145kE91jfQrQD97EEG480

8:01 PM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger mark hays said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10:34 PM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger mark hays said...

"Apparently the irony of your example is a little over your own head.

No, apparently it is over yours."

What are you- 12?

"someone I would immediately reject for a potential relationship.

Believe me, it is purely mutual."

I haven't shown myself to be dishonest, you have. You are the one displaying very unsavory traits in the most fundamental of principles: trust. Making you repulsive.

10:38 PM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger Laura(southernxyl) said...

"Violence happens when one or the other partner provokes the other."

Violence happens when the violent person chooses to lash out physically. End of story.

10:41 PM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger mark hays said...

Incorrect again. Not too bright are you? I hope you do keep provoking the men in your life & get what you deserve. Good luck... you're going to need it.

10:45 PM, April 08, 2009  
Blogger kentuckyliz said...

NPD is the polar opposite of what produces positive results in the pursuit of enlightened self-interest (economically).

NPD has no ethics, no empathy or regard for others, no integrity--it's all an act if it seems that they have.

Enlightened self interest and pursuing your economic best good requires high levels of personal integrity and respect of others as you work together to pursue your goals.

To do business requires trust, and if you're around a true NPDer you know that trust is not possible. You run the opposite direction away from an NPDer.

They might fool enough people to be mildly successful in the short run, but over the long term, it cannot last. You can't hide your true nature for long. Who you are speaks volumes.

I'm seeing this play out in a coworker's life right now--her two daughters are following very different paths and will produce different results. One is a really lovely person and not self centered at all, very other-directed, and hence is successful in her life; and the other is self centered (not sure as extreme as NPD diagnosable) and when she is done with you and taken what she can, she cuts off the relationship...and her world is getting smaller and smaller and she will be an utter failure. It's heartbreaking to see.

We live in a cause and effect world, and you reap what you sow.

1:40 PM, April 11, 2009  
Blogger wsty said...

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1:17 PM, April 25, 2009  
Blogger peter.w said...

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10:00 AM, May 01, 2009  

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