"That's the way society is these days..."
Many of you (thanks!) have been emailing a troubling article from the Telegraph entitled "Father prevented from photographing own children at fair." It seems that photographing one's own kids at a public place now makes one a pervert:
So, guys, remember, if you're out and about on a Sunday afternoon and have a camera in hand, especially in the UK, you may just be labled a pervert. I hate to think what would happen if a lone man actually walked around taking pictures without his own children present. Jail time may be next, if decent people don't stand up against this sort of absurdity.
Gary Crutchley was taking pictures of his sons Cory, seven, and Miles, five, on an inflatable slide when staff questioned him and told him to stop.
When Mr Crutchely, a father of three and an industrial rubber consultant, insisted he only wanted to photograph his own children, another parent challenged him, saying he could be putting the pictures up on the internet.
Mr Crutchely, 39, of Reedswood, Walsall, sought a second opinion from police at the Wolverhampton City Show, but was told "that's the way society is these days", though they admitted taking the pictures was allowed....
He said: "Another woman joined in and said her child was also on the slide and did not want me taking pictures of the youngster.
"She then said I could be taking pictures of just any child to put on the internet and called me a pervert."
Mrs Crutchely, added: "I was annoyed, extremely upset and embarrassed. I was shocked by the reaction of those women. It is very sad when every man with a camera enjoying a Sunday afternoon out in the park with his children is automatically assumed to be a pervert.
So, guys, remember, if you're out and about on a Sunday afternoon and have a camera in hand, especially in the UK, you may just be labled a pervert. I hate to think what would happen if a lone man actually walked around taking pictures without his own children present. Jail time may be next, if decent people don't stand up against this sort of absurdity.
posted by Helen at 7:29 AM
83 Comments:
That is appalling. It brings me to another question--let's say he was taking pictures with the purpose of putting them on the web. What is "perverted" about pictures of fully clothed children at the park?
How many of you know Dooce? She's a blogger, not my cup of tea but popular with many. Back in 2004 a blogger from my area started a Dooce attack blog. For years he wrote vicious posts on a daily basis about how Dooce is horrible person. He had many regular commenters that were in full agreement with him. Dooce's only crime? Putting up pictures of her fully clothed daughter on the Internet. The man took the blog off the Internet in 2005 as Dooce became more popular and now earns $40K a month from advertising on her site.
Evil HR Lady,
Good point. I would love to do an experiment where a woman goes to this park with her kids and takes pictures and then have a man do it and see the reaction. Then post the results on the internet. I guess, however, that that would make me a pervert? Or can a woman be a pervert?
Cham,
I don't know Dooce but have heard of her blog. That is truly awful--seems that she might have had a libel case against this man if the things he said were untrue.
Jail time may be next, if decent people don't stand up against this sort of absurdity.
Or maybe...
Perhaps another way of simply resolving the conflict would have been for the father to respect the wishes of the other parents who obviously did not want their own children photographed, and waited until he could snap a shot of his own enjoying the ride.
Surely there would have been a break in the line to do this, or even where he could photograph his own without the children of the objecting parents in his background.
I understand your concern helen, but sometimes overreacting really doesn't help things. (No, I don't think they'll send him to "jail" over this.) Surely there were better ways to work this one out?
I worked at an indoors public pool, and there were natural conflicts between parents who weren't so keen on the idea that bringing their child into public means they are fair game for the photographer's lens.
I think as a parent, if you don't get hostil and disrespectful, there are plenty of ways to make sure you are just capturing your own children, and while you might not have this obligation in public, it sure is easy to get your shot and still respect others who express their concerns about their own.
Think about those "No cell phones period in the locker rooms" rules. Unfortunately, there are people who would push limits taking photos in private and public places. It seems to me relying on common sense is much better than making accusations of perversity, or on the other end, exaggerating the fear of being jailed for taking a picture of your own kid.
Mutual Respect -- once it's gone, we really are in a boatload of trouble, as this post demonstrates. You can't legislate this; you just have to hope the grownups today are capable of it.
That's my same thought as surrepticiously taking pictures of children/people in public and posting their photos to one's blog. Sure it's legal, but why not ask permission particularly in the case of children?
I kind of have to agree with Mary. I know I don't like being photographed withou my permission, and I'm not sure I'd be happy with the idea that there might be random pictures of my kids floating around out there, that might show them with a dirty face or crying or something. Maybe the police would be at MY door then!
US Law is pretty clear about what is and isn't legal when it comes to picture taking. Here is a good site that covers the topic. If you or your kid are in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy then a photographer is welcome to snap away and post the pics wherever they want, provided they do not use the photos for profit.
Locker rooms, inside private property, homes and bathrooms are off-limits. Public playgrounds, not so much. So if you don't want your kid photographed then don't take them to the public pool or the public playground. I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it is the law and that is the way it is unless somebody changes it.
France is a completely different ball of wax. French law is more stringent in this regard.
So if you don't want your kid photographed then don't take them to the public pool or the public playground.
I do disagree with this way of living. There is, as cham rightly has identified, The Law, but thankfully in many societies still, there are ways of operating short of calling in The Law -- and this is the doctrine of compromise and Mutural Respect I was referencing earlier.
Mary,
Note that the father was only taking pictures of his own children and tried to show them to the staff to reassure them that this is all he was doing.
if you don't want your kid photographed then don't take them to the public pool or the public playground.
What I suspect will happen if someone for whatever reason starts snapping photos of every child exiting the water slide because, of course, they have that legal right, is that you'll see more repressive Private Rules about "No cameras allowed." Blanket Rules. One size fits all.
And that would a shame, for the parents who just want to shoot their child's birthday party, say.
That's why using common sense, being aware of strangers in public but not overreacting, can often work wonders if the maturity level is there, and there's not the one in every crowd who pushes the envelope (like in my water slide example above) because "I Know the Law"
As I told the nice policeman, this is exactly why I dress in drag when I take my kids to the park. No one cares when a woman is taking pictures of her kids. (Of course, they do wonder what a 6'3" drag queen is doing at the part.) :-)
England is going down the drain so fast that they all must be dizzy from the spinning. As Cham says, if you don't want your picture taken, stay home.
If the law is on the side of the photographer then a parent can't demand that their child's image not be photographed or get the police involved to intimidate and humiliate the photographer. If a parent doesn't want their kid photographed I would recommend a polite request that the photographer not take pictures and maybe, out of the kindness of his/her heart, he will do just that.
If you go to a 6 Flags park your image will automatically be taken while on the ride and then they will try to sell you your own picture. I have no idea what the parks do with all those unsold pics.
I didn't bother to read the article helen (your hyperbole turned me off) but I do understand this is the situation here. My common sense suggestions, however, would still stand. (And no, obviously they should not have called him a pervert.)
But sadly, helen, there are perverts out there and many pedophiles probably enjoy being in public places -- with or without children.
My comments were of a broader nature -- how would you handle if you were the pool manager, for example, the water slide photographer of every child, who clearly has that right under the law, but has aroused the concerns of the parents of these children?
I would hate to see Blanket Laws passed in such spaces, as I referenced above. Sometimes, solutions stop well short of invoking The Law, thankfully.
Another thing I am glad for: so many of these extreme examples you present are from the UK or other European countries. I like to think our American tradition of working things our ourselves, short of lawsuits, jailing or other wise invoking The Law, is still alive and well in America, and these types of minor conflicts get resolved without such extremes every day in America's public places.
Maybe I'm an optimist though, and you perhaps are a bit naive?
cham,
I think you and I are in agreement. But please understand in many parental eyes, there's a big difference between your kid automatically being photographed on a roller coaster, and a photographer focusing their lens constantly on a particular child or two at a neighborhood public park. Which, as you noted above, is perfectly legal, yet still to many I would suspect, a cause for concern.
Or maybe...
Perhaps another way of simply resolving the conflict would have been for the father to respect the wishes of the other parents who obviously did not want their own children photographed, and waited until he could snap a shot of his own enjoying the ride.
How about those parents learn to chill out and just let people do their own thing when they're not hurting others? Is it too much to ask of a society that takes the enforcement of "tolerance" to the level that medieval Europe took enforcement of Christian doctrines, to just tell people "oh shut up, he's not hurting anyone, leave him alone."
"Mutual respect" went out the window when they accused him of being a pervert for having the dark desire to make a family photo album of his kids' formative years.
And as far as I know, many pedophiles have children of their own that they have used, sadly, to further their additions. Not that this English father is, obviously, but it's really not so unimaginable as you might think, sadly...
Let's take a look at this word "pervert". What is the definition? Who gets to decide who is and who isn't a pervert?
Let's also talk about images. Let's say a person sits in his car 500 feet away from a playground and snaps a picture of a fully clothed child. Then he/she goes back to the privacy of his/her own home and masturbates to the image of that child. Is this a crime? Is the child being harmed in any way? Sure, there is a bit of an ick factor but tell me what law is being violated?
Miket--
Somehow, your response doesn't sound too respectful to me.
Besides, don't you think if you had your two boys that age with you at the park, you really would want to get on with the rides and just avoid the "showdown"? Seems my earlier suggestion to snap the photos of your own might have been the easier out...
Maybe I'm an optimist though, and you perhaps are a bit naive?
You are quite naive if you believe the rule of law is much stronger than it is in Europe. Most of these stories come from the UK. If you follow civil liberties cases and such in America, you will often find yourself horrified at how quickly police and prosecutors will conspire to undo the law and constitution to get another notch on the belt.
Then he/she goes back to the privacy of his/her own home and masturbates to the image of that child.
You'd have to ask "dr." helen, but I would suspect that's an early sign of an unhealthy addiction, with possible potential consequences to the innocent child should this habit begin to grow and need more stimulation to fuel it.
As you note though, it's perfectly legal to do so.
In my layman's analysis, I suspect that is crossing a line -- deviating from "fantasy" and focusing on a real child. It sure sounds unhealthy to me, that hypothetical, a reason for parents to remain aware and protective of their own, and yes, I'd call such a masturbator in that situation a pervert.
Or more accurately, a pedophile.
Somehow, your response doesn't sound too respectful to me.
Why would I show any respect to a woman who comes out flailing in rage over something so simple as taking a picture? It wasn't directed at you, unless you happen to identify with those women, which from the sounds of your other comments, you don't.
Besides, don't you think if you had your two boys that age with you at the park, you really would want to get on with the rides and just avoid the "showdown"? Seems my earlier suggestion to snap the photos of your own might have been the easier out...
It would be the easier out, but the less socially responsible one. Too few people stand up against this sort of lunacy which is why it's taken over Britain and creeping up on the United States. If someone came up to your husband and starting spittling in his face about being a "pervert" because he's taking pictures of your kids, where your kids could hear everything, you wouldn't defend your family's reputation?
My wife, as non-confrontational as she normally is, would go nucking futs on a woman who did that to her family.
Mary--
The point is, merely taking pictures of fully clothed children in a public place, particularly one's own children, is normal, harmless behavior. It's completely legal, and there are no grounds for the assumption that someone who takes those pictures must be a pervert.
Men have also been asked to switch seats on an airplane solely because they were sitting next to an unaccompanied child (through random assignment) and, just for being men, were assumed to be perverts. Are they supposed to just accommodate the bigots?
Substitute race for gender, or reverse the genders, and it should be obvious how dreadful the park employees' and other mothers' behavior was. Imagine if the story took place in the South and a black father was told not to take pictures of his children because some other white mothers were afraid that he was a sex pervert who was taking pictures of their daughters.
The correct response for men in this situation is, "I'll keep taking pictures of my children as I have a legal right to do, and if you don't like it, you can leave. If you use force to prevent me from taking pictures of my own children, I'll hit you with a gender discrimination suit so fast your head will spin." The park employees should become more reasonable very quickly.
Edgehopper:
The pervert label has become the ultimate trump card, sort of the way the word "bitch" was used back in the 90s. Don't like someone's behavior? A man isn't following your directives? Just call him a pervert or pedophile and he will quietly succumb to your desire.
I'm not at liberty to discuss details but I witnessed a situation last month regarding the horrific personal abuse of a an individual that happens to be on our state's Internet pedophile site. Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of all these pedophile accusations thrown willy nilly around at anyone at any time. I'm angry enough to start writing some letters and demanding new legislation.
there's a big difference between your kid automatically being photographed on a roller coaster, and a photographer focusing their lens constantly on a particular child or two at a neighborhood public park.
There's also a big difference between a photographer focusing their lens constantly on a particular child or two, and a father snapping photos of his kids with other random kids happening to be in the background. Watchful parents should know if someone is following their kid around, even if they can't tell exactly where the camera is focused.
There may be a fine line between watchfulness and paranoia.
Once at a crowded park I saw a young man, alone, sit down and start blowing bubbles. Of course he was immediately surrounded by laughing kids. Some mothers moved their kids away, obviously disturbed. Others let them play till they lost interest. That behavior seemed a little odd to me at the time - do 20ish men like blowing bubbles? But maybe he was just a guy who liked kids and didn't have any of his own. (Or a noncustodial father missing his own.) My kids had fun for a few minutes and I wondered why I hadn't thought to bring bubbles.
It seems to me that "innocent until proven guilty" is more than just a legal doctrine. It should be an integral part of civilized behavior. A free people does not tolerate the conviction of others based on what they might someday do.
"Or maybe...
Perhaps another way of simply resolving the conflict would have been for the father to respect the wishes of the other parents who obviously did not want their own children photographed, and waited until he could snap a shot of his own enjoying the ride."
Or maybe...
The parents not wishing to have their kids photographed could have asked the father to hold off for a minute, then helped him get photos of his own kids on the slide and such by moving the rest of the children away for a minute, then letting them go back to normal.
The man obviously wanted pictures of his children while playing, and taking them away from the playground equipment would have thwarted the purpose of the pictures.
Wayne,
Good idea, but it seemed that the father was getting pics of just his kids on the slide--and no one elses. Here they are:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035315/Father-branded-pervert--photographing-children-public-park.html
A kind answer turns away wrath. Some times that is certainly correct. Kindly but firmly insisting on your right to engage in legal activity is also a part of mutual civility. If I were the father, and I certainly could be as I take photos of my kids often, I would smile, offer to show the photos, and continue to engage in a safe, legal activity that hurts nobody.
Some people live frightened lives. I am sad for them, but I will not let their fear make me live that way.
Trey
Helen wrote: …can a woman be a pervert? YES! It was only recently that a column about women raping men was discussed here, so that point’s established.
More topically, I recall 24 years ago I was asked by my sister to pick up her son at daycare (the kid is and always was a little brat…single mother, so no surprise). I show up and the kid acts like Hannibal Lecter just slid into bed next to him. I’m standing there wondering why “Dave” has crawled into a corner and started quivering and then my attention changes focus: it’s near closing time and about 30 women are picking up their kids and all the women are looking at me like…well, you know. One speed dials the state police.
I still have no idea what is going on. I have never considered myself candidate material for the pedophile industry, nor have I ever hit/hurt a child, as my childhood was on the receiving end of that charming social disease.
One of the women who worked there (thank God!!!) takes taekwondo lessons with me and assures everybody that “Dave” is a hyperactive child with a real attitude problem and that I am about as dangerous as a quarter-teaspoon of confectioner’s sugar (which I resented, as I was a brown belt at the time while she was still green).
Moral of the story: It SUCKS being a man and within 40 yards of children. Reason #37538126 for why many men remain single.
edgehopper hit all cylinders with his response, leaving me nothing to say but: Well said!
Helen,
I was more making a point about how the other parents should have been less vindictive and more willing to cooperate, in response to Mary's contention that the father should have changed the nature of the photos he was taking, just to avoid possibly offending someone.
I mean, she IS the one who said she didn't even read the article because of your comments, before she came in here and made that assertion.
Are there really perverts under EVERY rock or has the media just made it seem that way?
Are there really perverts under EVERY rock or has the media just made it seem that way?
Ya know, I think the problem is that the perverts are getting organized and upity. The pedophiles have come on Althouse to say that there is nothing wrong with being sexually attracted to children and looking at them or photos of them as long as they do not touch them. Insert the dangers of moral relativism lecture here.
I post some photos on flickr and there is a large and active pedophile community over there. Every week I kick people out of various groups I run because they link to a wholesome group of kids photos and they are members of 200 sexually exploitave groups.
So the perverts are coming out of the dungeon and they need to be smacked down as far as I am concerned. While Gov. Jindall may never get his castration legislation passed, his trying does send an important message, and perverts will be looking to leave Louisiana and move to places with less stringent and punitiv laws so that they can do what they do: sexually abuse kids.
A telling stat. When interviewed, convicted child sexual perpetrators admitted to an average of two victims. When put on a lie detector, they admitted to an average of 136 victims.
Trey
The problem is one of perception. Child abduction stats have stayed pretty constant in N. America for the last 40 years. It's just that with 24 hour infotainment, everyone thinks it happens much more often.
From the Daily Mail article that Helen's comment mentioned:
Mr Gwinnett, 58, a LibDem councillor in Wolverhampton, said: ‘Our policy is to ask people taking photos whether they have children on the slide. If they do, then that is fine.
‘But on this occasion another customer took exception to what the man was doing and an argument developed between those two people that continued without any further involvement from staff on the slide.’
So every single person taking pictures is interrogated? That's crazy. As others have said, I wonder if the policy is applied evenhandedly, especially to women.
Note that politician Gwinnett states the policy. Apparently this member of the ruling class does not feel impelled to explain why it is a good one. He disassociates the policy from the incident.
***********
1. The great majority of people commenting on the articles recognize the madness. Yet the elected representative is fine with it. What's gone wrong here?
Memo to Councillor Gwinnett: maybe you should introduce legislation requiring every father to carry an official photograph, renewed annually (for a fee of course), of himself with his children. Such ID to be displayed when demanded by any bystander.
Hey, that could be your ticket to a seat in Parliament. Maybe even the Cabinet!
2. Suppose X sees a parent publicly, openly and innocently photographing his own, i.e. the parent's own, children and X concludes the parent is a pervert. IMO X has a twisted mind. In a generalized way, it is X who can legitimately be called a pervert.
But X suffers no social stigma whatsoever. ("But if it makes even one child just a little bit safer...")
Wayne,
Yes, I agree--the parents should have been more cooperative. I generally move out of the way when others are trying to shoot video or pictures, knowing how precious some of them will be to the picture taker.
Or maybe...
The parents not wishing to have their kids photographed could have asked the father to hold off for a minute, then helped him get photos of his own kids on the slide and such by moving the rest of the children away for a minute, then letting them go back to normal.
My point exactly, Wayne. It's a give and take world, and sometimes we seem to forget that in our efforts to make a "point".
This is obviously a complex topic -- the photographing of other people's children in public places, and sharing those images online without permission. (It's the child's permission to give really, with the parent acting as the agent until they are of age to make such decisions for themselve, imo.)
Hopefully, the grownups will act maturely (as these women apparently did not) and nobody will overdramatize such situations to the detriment of all our children.
If someone came up to your husband and starting spittling in his face about being a "pervert" because he's taking pictures of your kids, where your kids could hear everything, you wouldn't defend your family's reputation?
No. My first concern would be for my children, and removing them from that potentially "crazy" situation. There's a time to defend sure, but not at the risk of your children watching, being invested emotionally, and putting them in the way of such obvious nuttiness. Get them the heck out of there, and no -- I don't consider that "backing down".
You don't use your children to make points, and you sure hope that other parents will respect your wishes for your own. In short, even though it's not legally required and doesn't make you a pervert, please ask permission before you capture the images of other people's children.
Thanks for the realistic stats, Trey. Yes, we've got to take care not to offend innocent others, but hopefully we can all work together to protect our children, because clearly such situations do exist -- and just as it's wrong to accuse someone of perversity (as apparently happened here), it's just as wrong to misconstrue one's legal right as a blanket right to do as one pleases.
I must note to readers who follow this entire thread: earlier this morning I was responding to a hypothetical -- now deleted -- that posed the question if a child really was "hurt" if someone surrepticiously photographed him in a park, and the photographer went home and masturbated to the images.
I said, that person would indeed be labeled a pedophile, and that is the reason most parents are quite vigilant with their children in public places visited by children and adults. I also noted that I'm guessing rarely do such acts end with the masturbating; your child would be at risk of potentially being harmed, and act as if "the child doesn't know, how can he be hurt?" is a naive attitude at best.
I'm sorry the comment was deleted, and don't wish readers to confuse what I was talking about with all people who take pictures of their own children in public.
Child abduction stats have stayed pretty constant in N. America for the last 40 years. It's just that with 24 hour infotainment, everyone thinks it happens much more often.
Or... society is finally beginning to address these somehow unbelievable situations, and is determined -- collectively -- not to let it happen to even a stable number of children. Together we can protect ALL the children; but making dramatic points and assuming every parent who is watchful overreacts -- like these women -- or that these situations are foreign in public places like pools and parks ...
Whoops -- there it is at 9:19 am, not deleted. My bad...
I tend to perceive the behavior exhibited by these women as a form of socially sanctioned aggression. That is, they recognized that they had a plausible justification and the opportunity to harrass and degrade this man, knew that they would not experience negative consequences arising from their actions, and so attacked him. Perhaps they resent the presence of men at their playground, or men generally.
It's doubtful that they actually believed that some pervert had come to the park with his wife and child for the purpose of taking erotic pictures of children in order to post them on the internet. It's even less likely that a pervert would then stick around and argue his case once confronted.
I'd been attacked in a similar manner several years ago for attempting to help a young girl who couldn't find her mother in a shopping mall. The mother arrived shortly after I'd enlisted a security guard to help find her. She promptly accused me of attempting to kidnap and molest her daughter. So I opened my phone at told her I was calling child protective services - that they'd be very interested in her theories. Strangely this seemed to convince her that attempted kidnapping was less important than leaving the mall in a hurry.
in response to Mary's contention that the father should have changed the nature of the photos he was taking, just to avoid possibly offending someone.
Lol Wayne. You misread my comment and echoed exactly my point. Work together parents, for the sakes of the kids.
At least I think we've calmed helen's fears a bit that the "will they put him in jail??" were certainly unwarranted.
I'm glad this thread fizzled and did not turn into the useless black/white or man/v.woman kind that helen so often seems to enjoy in setting up here. It's a complex world and there are plenty of situations that are not so easy as the "easy" take she likes to offer, playing this side off the other.
Where did I say he couldn't take a photo of his child on the slide playing? I just said to wait until the other children were not present -- or as you suggested, until the other parents voluntarily had their own children step aside so they would not be present in the images he captured.
That's a sad case, hugo. I know when I see a female broken down on the side of the road, even with kids, I keep moving - unless there is a fire in the car.
Some may think that is cruel, but what people may think if I keep moving cannot do any where near the damage to me as what people may wish to think I was doing by stopping (to help). I believe there is more danger in people's thoughts than actions.
You're made of glass, mary. Everyone can see right through you. You are too wrapped up in your weird thing for Dr. Helen to see that.
Rest assured we are all laughing at you behind your back, as well as in your face. Don't tell me you can't hear the voices........whispering.
Mary--
I just said to wait until the other children were not present -- or as you suggested, until the other parents voluntarily had their own children step aside so they would not be present in the images he captured.
Under the circumstances, this just isn't reasonable. We're essentially talking about a ride at a carnival here. You can't expect someone to wait for a bunch of fragile, unreasonable mothers to clear the area before taking pictures of his children. The images aren't posed; they're transient--kids going down a slide.
Meanwhile, you don't have a right to perfect happiness and security when you're out in the public sphere. The world can't be made perfectly safe for your little darlings at law-abiding citizens' expense. If I, a 25 year old male, went to a playground and took pictures of strangers' kids, it would be legal (as long as I didn't publish them without permission. I wouldn't, but I could certainly have a legitimate non-perverted reason for doing so.) A father taking pictures of his own kids is, of course, on far safer ground.
Here's an example from my life, Mary, tell me what you think. I was riding on a crowded New York subway, and two girls, about 9 years old, were sitting down near me. I could overhear them discussing their math homework--and heard that they were getting it wrong. Since I'm pretty good with math (taught Princeton Review), I, out of the kindness of my heart, suggested the correct answer and attempted to teach them the right way to do the problem. It bothers me immensely that in hindsight, that was an extremely dangerous thing for me to do, and I mean dangerous to me.
What about when I was skiing, and I saw a 10 year old boy on the side of a difficult slope, uninjured but scared and having trouble getting down the slope. Should I just ski past, call ski patrol, and hope for the best, or actually help like a responsible member of the community?
Society loses a lot when we treat all men as perverts, or even all single men. As someone who's been scared of the sort of treatment this father got, and also someone who's actively worked with legitimate anti-pedophile groups, attitudes like yours, Mary, really bother me. It's the sort of attitude that drives men out of professional or volunteer situations where there's any contact with prepubescent children--when such children often really need to know how to relate to responsible adult men.
It's the sort of attitude that drives men out of professional or volunteer situations where there's any contact with prepubescent children
Are you living in Europe too? The more I read on this blog, the more I'm glad of where I live -- where men serve as coaches, take their kids camping without hand-holding organizations like the Scouts, and interact healthily with women. Why, we even have male teachers in the early grades around here too.
Don't let helen's fears of all the men being jailed or castrated by women essentially cause you to miss out on the blessings of family life, and participation in the full range of societal interactions guys. Keep your eyes open, or travel around, until you find still-masculine me actively participating and not cowering in fear because of the alleged discrimination against them -- it's simply not true and overexaggered to a great extent, from what I see here (Upper Midwest). Get outdoors, turn of your 'puters, and choose your reading materials wisely rather than reinforcing your fears.
Remember, the psychologists and bloggers may have a special angle on making men out to be victims, and the weaker ones naturally may fall for it. But explain to me how so many of your stronger/securer brothers are able to participate fully and live happy lives complete with healthy relationships with women? Why them, and not you? Perhaps it's because they are not dr helen fans (except for the occasional chuckle at her take on mens' issues) and don't feed their head with such oddball stories like the one linked here, including the admonishions that for men, the Sky is Falling, the Sky is Falling!!
(helen -- no offense intended. You know your niche online, and obviously you're working it.)
The world can't be made perfectly safe for your little darlings at law-abiding citizens' expense.
Of course. I think you're addressing this to the wrong commenter though. We're not about using scare tactics, nor finding victims, nor being bitter against groups of people here in the more masculine world, where we don't carry such irrational fears of children, mothers, women in general.
And if you really have to stop and think where you're at about stopping to help an injured person -- child or not -- then something within you is messed up. I bet you believed that story of the "twice raped Marine" too; sometimes when you go over the top, as helen and her regulars so often do here, you lose all credibility.
I can't imagine what kind of guy, at 25, wants to spend his free time taking pictures of other people's kids at the playground anyway, just to make a "victim" point. Do go for it though, and come back and tell us how mistreated you were even though of course, The Law is on your side (initially at least).
Mary--
1: I live in NYC. So, somewhere between Europe and the Midwest.
Yeah, most of the time, helping out a kid isn't going to get you labelled a pedophile. But it happens, unofficially and officially (like in this case, or the Australian one), and even if the probability is low, the damage is so ridiculously high as to cause second thoughts.
And if you really have to stop and think where you're at about stopping to help an injured person -- child or not -- then something within you is messed up.
On a similar note, when an off-duty cop has to stop and think whether he's willing to personally stop a crime in progress, then something is messed up. Thanks to New York's silliness, this scenario is now fact. It's not a personal failing, it's a cultural failing. When you treat men as presumed criminals, you can't expect them to not change their behavior accordingly.
Actually, I did believe the story of the twice-raped Marine. Everyone has different reactions to sexual exploitation, and I'm not going to call someone a liar for having a reaction that's either unexpected or rarely heard due to the fact that said marine became a target for some truly vile attacks. If the marine wasn't raped, then there are a whole lot of date rape convictions of men we should be taking a second look at.
And finally, you clearly have trouble reading, and missed the word, "if" in my hypothetical. I have no interest in going to the playground to take pictures of kids, but hypothetically, it would, and should, be legal. I actually have a full and happy life, and I disagree with some of Helen's more misogynist commenters (though I wouldn't discount the experiences that got them there.) But I won't be running out to volunteer to coach an elementary school chess team any time soon either--this sort of thing tips the scales against volunteering.
Meanwhile, the way to halt the advance of misandry in the culture is to point it out and attack it where it happens. Don't be a victim, and don't ignore it; fight it.
I am sure some of you see a common theme to some of my posts and I am going to continue on with it here. This situation on the inflatable ride in England may have much more to do with feelings of control and powerlessness among these mothers than whether it is right or wrong to take pictures of children.
When a person starts acting irrationally and behaving oddly you have to look at what instigated the bad behavior. Accusing a father of being a "pervert" and potentially posting pictures of children on the Internet is irrational at best, crazy at worst.
These ladies have found a subject (picture-taking) where they can exert control over others, so they are using it. The whole process of getting the ride operator involved, making accusations, humiliating the father, getting their way and forcing a change in someone else through fear made these women feel powerful and in control.
In every group of people there will be a segment that have issues with control and power. However, since our culture has ordained mothers to be right up there with God this gives them more power over others than most. Unless something changes, we are all going to be perverts for a long long time.
BTW, this post has motivated me. I am going to begin my lobbying efforts with my state to get the Pedophile list off the Internet. I've really had enough of all this crap.
This would never occur to me. I am so used to taking pictures whenever I want and see people doing the same.
I don't think about people with ulterior motives, youtube, cell phones, etc.
So sad really..that we have to think this way.
I have always been protective with our sons but wouldn't be concerned if their pic showed up on the web because they were caught in a merry-go-round shot with other children. I don't see the threat there.
I feel badly for kids growing up now in that they don't know what it is like to not have technology at your fingertips 24/7, nor will they have as much care free freedom that we did.
When I was little the only caution about strangers I heard was don't take candy from strangers. We could roam around all day as long as we checked in for meals.
That being said..children are better educated today on the dangers of going off with strangers etc.
There was a true pervert that lived next door to me during my childhood-my girlfriend's father. No one ever reported him to the police (60s-70s), but thankfully today...he'd never get away with those things.
I'm sorry this is so long -brevity with words not my strong suit. :)
Dr Helen..I do have a question for you if you have the time to respond.
It seems we hear/see so many reports (Dateline, newspapers, etc.)of child molesters. Usually, adult men of varying ages,risking everything-family, profession, reputation.
My question is..is this on the rise.
It seems that it is.
Or is it just that we have more instant media coverage and the capability via satellite to instantly pick up info from around the world.
And one more.
Do you think these men were always molesters but kept it in check..but that with such easy and private availability to porn and related links...it has caused men that would never have gone in this direction..as they got more involved..to go down that road?
Thank you!
A. It is hard to stomach such a consummate a**-hole as Mary.
To catalogue her sins and misadventures in this thread would take more time than I wish to waste.
B. Men are subjected to differential treatment that negatively impacts their lives and this differential treatment does not have a rational basis but is based on anti-male stereotypes that are awash in society. Hence , men's lives will be improved and social justice enhanced if these stereoytpes are debunked and the conduct, policies, and laws based on them are repudiated. A just society treats everyone fairly.
Heard that argument before, Mary ?
Its the one relied on by WOMEN.. and blacks... and gays... and every group that has demonstrated that their lives were injured by conduct/rules/policies/laws based on false stereotypes.
You don't like men using the argument -- and presenting facts to support it-- because you don't give a damn if men are discriminated against. Your admitted goal is to debunk and minimize men's claims of illegitimate differential treatment, essentially without regard to their merit ( since someone who is anti-male never sees discrimintion or thinks it is worth combating if it does exists).
That agenda was quickly smoked out when your indefensible position of "no-foul here" was dismantled by several posts, esp. edgehopper's. Then you emerged as a reactionary-- a rather smarmy opponent of Dr Helen and the entire field of discriminatory treatment of men and boys.
^^The bitchy reference to her having a niche and exploitng it is pretty lame. There aint no fame or money defending men or addressing their issues... while caterwauling about women is a goldmine ...^^
C. A father taking pictures of his children in a public park is harassed. A mother doing the same would not be. Thats unfair and limits men's lives.
Got it, Mary ?
If you don't care. Fine. Say so upfront.
Mary is not a consummate asshole. Like any other commenter here we occasionally disagree and that is perfectly okay. Sometimes Mary brings a thought or idea that others haven't considered.
I would assume Mary is welcome here just like anyone else that can remain civil and in good spirits, although the decision-maker clearly is Helen.
@reptile:
You RULE, dude!
Everyone should retire to Amazon and purchase the first good and funny critique of feminism-- by a liberal Northeastern English professor no less !--
"The Myth of the Monstrous Male-- and other Feminist Fables "---- 1982, John Gordon.
It costs obly about the price of shipping-- 4.00-- and its great.
Gordon said in 1982--26 years ago that ...
" for the last ten years or so feminism has been in fact quite possibly the most prolific single fountainhead of fashionably malignant drivel on the national scene."
And Gordon's expose of feminism is from the left !
Its worth the price of a gallon of gas.
Reptile,
My man says "nope, Mary don't hate men." I'm sure my male friends and coworkers would echo the same (I work in a male dominated profession.)
I am sorry for true victims of all stripes. But I do pity those who find the playing the victim card so attractive, that they sweep too generally and exaggerate any minor incident that would support their claims "the sky is falling; all men are victims etc."
Again, I'm glad I don't live in NYC or other areas where apparently it is becoming a boy v. girl thing, like grade school playgrounds. Here, we respect our differences and understand we've got to work together to forward our families and communities. And we kinda like men who are still free to be men, women who don't think being a woman is a superior or a negative thing.
I'm not of the age where women advanced solely because they were women, and I think the "quota" system of promoting by gender (or race or whatever) eventually catches up to the "favored" group.
But I surely don't think that the way to counter the effects of the feminism movement -- which particularly takes it toll on children, I think -- is for men to organize, band together, and use the same tactics, always claiming discrimination and playing the victim cards themselves.
I wasn't disrespecting dr helen. Obviously she's built quite a following here in publicizing such incidences. It's just -- absent any positive stories of men as primary teachers, coaches, or otherwise happy in their masculine role in family life -- some of you start to believe that these stories culled from the UK press mostly are present all across the US, and we are headed for some great crisis.
We here don't buy that. Just like we don't buy that any Marine who has made it through basic training would submit to a lesser physical force "raping" him ... twice. That said, I am glad we are now questioning every woman who reports rape, to make sure her story rings true too. I am sorry for the days when apparently all women's words were accepted as gold. But I sure as heck don't fear returning to those days, nor do I think they exist everywhere across our country.
Perhaps mysogynists don't want to hear this. They don't like women, and often these attitudes color their listening skills. And if I was going to try and get links and build a blog for extra spending cash (helen has revealed she uses the revenue to support things like boat trips, etc), heck I'd use my expertise to try and fill a niche market too.
I stand by what I said earlier: if you are confident in your own sexuality or "maleness", you don't make mountains out of molehills. You delete the pictures where other people's children are present (as the man here apparently did) and you find a way to get what you need -- namely pictures of your own enjoying the ride, without dragging somebody else's kid into it.
You don't fight with crazy people -- women or men. You remain independent of such constraints, and go about your business with your children, not giving these women what they want -- a fight. Then, you've got your pics and it's onto the next ride with Papa! The kids win too, as they see healthy male role modeling. No matter how much she tries, how educated she is, helen as a woman just can't help you with that...
Sometimes I think there should be a Big Brother mentor program for Adult Men, who maybe didn't have a father in the home, who never went camping or hunting or fishing alone without an organization, and who aren't essentially imprisioned in what is a genderless world like our urban areas are becoming, with no physical work to perform.
Good men still exist, and usually they are standing alongside strong women. Banding together with the walking wounded rarely produces such traits however, hence the need for some positive role modeling. Don't hate being a man, or whine about how it's hurting your life, and would be so much easier to live life as a woman. We've got our own burdens to bear, but together with good menfolk, we are proud to stand alongside them.
Thanks for your kind words cham, btw. Good luck to everyone here, and don't let the negative dissuade you any from volunteering to coach children in physical games, participate actively in their education (boys need to do the homework too!), or give up on all womankind. There are still plenty of good ones out here, who are more than happy to let you be men and participate fully in your children's lives. We need you still; men truly are irreplaceable and the bearer of the seeds of the future. Never forget the importance of your roles. No matter how many tabloid trash stories you may read. Make "we don't care how they do it in Europe" your motto perhaps? :-)
I also wonder if perhaps our loss of religion in society has helped make so many men lose sight of their unique roles, reinforced through years of traditions that postitively impacted most families. (?)
It seems those areas that still have church-going families (men and women) don't struggle so much with defining these roles, and are more likely to accept their unique places in Nature and the Circle of Life.
If you think taking pictures of your own kids in a public place is going to get you in hot water, try taking pictures of police officers in public.
This goes beyond pedophile hysteria.
The government routinely sets up surveillance cameras to take pictures without consent. Nobody makes much of a fuss about that. But citizens taking pictures of police is somehow not OK.
All your cameras are belong to us!
Funny thing, wt...
Over at InstyPundit, there's a story just up about an officer demanding free Starbucks. Check it out -- I mean, who would defend such behavior?
I also wonder if perhaps our loss of religion in society has helped make so many men lose sight of their unique roles
I'd agree with that if you included women in there too. I would go so far as to say women started that trend.
The problem with retreat is that you cede ground to your enemy. Even in the case when that ground is unimportant to the grand scheme, letting your enemy have this small victory without any losses can shift the balance of morale in his favor.
The people who were yelling at Dude for exercising his right to take pictures of his children in a public space (AND attempting to do so in a considerate manner, using the concept of mutual respect*) are bullies. The proper response to a bully is not capitulation, but confrontation. Sure, it's tougher, but we as a society are better off. Sure, your kids see you engaged in conflict, but they learn the difference between conflict resolution and conflict avoidance.
*Mary, "mutual respect" requires work from both parties.
Sure, your kids see you engaged in conflict, but they learn the difference between conflict resolution and conflict avoidance.
Yes! Politely standing up for what's right is a good thing for kids to see. Then parents explain the whole situation later, when it's over. And another generation of people learns how to properly act in their society. How else are they going to learn it?
"The proper response to a bully is not capitulation, but confrontation."
Correct. It is important to not give in to other people's delusional fears, it only reinforces them. And let's face it, there is certainly no lack of photos of children in the various media for the perverts. Photos of children in swimsuits are on all the major retailer's web sites. Kids laughing on the slide or in the park would not have any special cachet with the perverts as far as I can see.
It reminds me of my former wife advising me not to let our daughter play at McCdonalds because of the venomous snakes that live in the plastic balls. Right. I treated that suggestion with all the respect it deserved.
Trey
Mary, How was the man overreacting? As it appears to me, those accusing him of being a pervert were the ones overreacting.
As for your quote:
Don't hate being a man, or whine about how it's hurting your life, and would be so much easier to live life as a woman.
I'm unclear as to how pointing out societal problems constitutes whining. Are we not allowed to comment on negative trends - trends that not only hurt men, but everyone? In what fashion would you have us address the issue so as to not draw criticisms from you about whiny men? Is it possible?
"don't let the negative dissuade you any from volunteering to coach children in physical games, participate actively in their education"
All well and good for you to say such things when you are not the one taking the risk. While the risk maybe relatively small, the cost of false accusations is often total. They can strip a person of family, job, home, reputation, etc.. Would you spin that roulette wheel if it meant having your kids taken away should you lose?
Mary,
Don't know if you'll come back to this old thread or not, but I thought you might like to know that I looked at the comment I was responding to, and yes, I obviously read it wrong. I somehow read it to say that he should have taken his children away from the crowd in order to take his photos, rather than trying to wait until he could get a shot without other children in it.
Whether that was plausible in this situation or not (as edgehopper contends), I DID misread it, and now my comments make no sense. Heh.
This same situation actually happened to me one Halloween. All the kids were milling out in the street getting ready to make the rounds, and I started taking pictures of my sister, who was probably 8 or 9 at the time.
One of the mothers jumped all over me. She wanted to know why I was taking pictures and what I was going to do with them. She wanted to know my name and where I lived. And she didn't want her kids in any of the pictures, even though they were all in costumes that essentially obscured their identities.
Here's the thing: I am not a man. I am a woman, and clearly so. I was wearing a costume, but it didn't obscure the fact that I am a woman. I was a bit taken aback by that woman's reaction, and I do think she over-reacted, but I respect her. If your children are in a situation you aren't comfortable with, why not intervene? I know that guys get singled out as "perverts" more often than women, and I guess that's unfortunate. But I think people have a right to be suspicious. It doesn't make it right, but when it comes to protecting our kids from perceived threats sometimes we can be irrational, even mean.
Mary: Over at InstyPundit, there's a story just up about an officer demanding free Starbucks.
I didn’t intend to go off on a tangent, I just wanted to demonstrate that this photography phobia goes beyond soccer moms and their pedophile paranoia. Let me be perfectly clear, I do think that there is a problem with men being unfairly vilified and deemed untrustworthy around children. I have experienced this phenomenon myself, so it is irritating to see these concerns dismissed with a casual wave of the hand.
Mary: Perhaps another way of simply resolving the conflict would have been for the father to respect the wishes of the other parents who obviously did not want their own children photographed, and waited until he could snap a shot of his own enjoying the ride.
There are situations where this is impractical. A crowded fair, or amusement park, etc.
Bottom line is, you are in a public place. You can be as uncomfortable as you like, but the fact is anyone can take your picture and, in the USA, it is perfectly legal. For now, anyway. I’m sure the Pervert Police would like to change that.
Hired Geek: But I think people have a right to be suspicious. It doesn't make it right, but when it comes to protecting our kids from perceived threats sometimes we can be irrational, even mean.
And the targets of their wrath have a right to be defensive and protect themselves from paranoid bigots. I am tired of this "For the Children®" idiocy where all common sense goes out the window and no legislation or policy is too draconian and stupid if it can protect just one precious child. If these people cannot act like rational human beings instead of animals who are at the mercy of their protective instincts, then that is their problem, not mine.
There is no excuse for acting irrational or mean. If you are an adult then you should have the ability to act and speak in a respectful manner. I agree with wt, this "for the children" reasoning has gone too far.
I also wonder if perhaps our loss of religion in society has helped make so many men lose sight of their unique roles.
I'd agree with that if you included women in there too.
I chose "men" because we were talking about the role of men. But yeah, I definitely agree with you regarding women too.
PunditJoe:
If the comment doesn't fit you, it wasn't aimed at you. But there are regulars here (see upthread) who constantly misread anyone with a female name, and yes, there are plenty of regulars whining away on here regularly.
Mary, "mutual respect" requires work from both parties.
Absolutely, and where oh where did I say it did not?
The point is, if you choose not to engage with cuckoos, you aren't running away. You're leaving them alone to fester, and moving on to better things (other rides w/the kids, for example.)
You can't "force" people to practice mutual respect any more than you are going to win them over via a verbal confrontation.
Best to seek your own ends (here, photos of your kids enjoying the slide/rides) and figure out the most efficient way to get there. If you went there so your kids can enjoy the rides, really they are the ones that lose if somehow you take the time to make this into a battle for mens' rights equality with some crazy ladies.
I DID misread it, and now my comments make no sense. Heh.
Thanks Wayne. You're a Big Man, and something tells me you and I would get along well, IRL.
Trey:
No way? Your wife really thought there were venemous snakes in an indoor ball pit? Hmmm... I guess some men have tougher roads to hoe than others, depending on where exactly their woman starts from.
I do trust that you understand most women (at least the ones I know, but the more I read, the luckier I think I am) don't share such paranoid delusions, same as the woman from the slide. Is your wife from the UK or Europe by chance?? :-)
I had to look up the whole snakes in the plastic balls thing, it seemed like a spicey topic. Turns out, there was a bit of a rumor back in 1993 about that, go to page 395 of this book.
When a highly dysfunctional person says something like "I don't want my kid playing the plastic balls because they are filled with timber rattlers" then you can translate that to mean, "I don't want to do what you want, and I am making up an preposterous tale as an excuse so that I know you won't be able to argue with me." Game. Set. Match.
Been the victim of that kind of stuff myself. I learned never to call the crazy person on their actions because they will go into orbit.
I certainly don't condone irrational or mean behavior, but it happens. It isn't an excuse, but it is a fact. People do irrational, mean, stupid things when it comes to their kids. There is something about the paternal/maternal instinct that can make us jerks sometimes.
Dana: People do irrational, mean, stupid things when it comes to their kids.
People do not have to succumb to their animal impulses.
I have a male friend who (gasp) takes pictures in public— and sometimes of other people's kids. Mostly his own, though.
The thing is, he does professional photography and has a digital SLR. Has this made it less likely he'll get harassed? He's never said anything about people telling him to stop...
Don't know where you are coming from, dana, on your post about people doing mean things to their kids. Don't be mean to yours, if that is something you are fighting. If you were brought up that way, consider breaking the chain, eh?
You could be raising a future president of a corporation, or the U.S., the scientist who finally cures cancer, the world's greatest plumber or carpenter, or a future mas murderer. There are parents doing all of that right now. Go for the scientist.
br549: I think Dana was referring to people behaving irrationally in defense of their children, not being abusive towards their children.
I can understand the "better safe than sorry" rationale to an extent, but not at the expense of everyone's rights. You don’t have to behave like a grizzly bear just because you perceive some potential threat to your cubs.
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