"In general, a restraining order is only enforceable against a law-abiding, non-violent man."
Mike McCormick and Glenn Sacks: Restraining Orders Can Be Straitjackets On Justice:
Update: Vox Day has more on New Jersey's lack of regard for the Constitution when it comes to men and domestic violence.
Women’s advocates and the state Attorney General's office are criticizing a new court ruling which will make it harder for women to get restraining orders against their male partners. Star-Ledger columnist Fran Wood, in her recent op-ed “Don't soften protection for women,” called New Jersey’s Domestic Violence Prevention Act “one of the best statutes in the country,” and said the new ruling could “diminish the ability of domestic violence victims to get the protection they need.”
Certainly abused women need protection and support, but there are many troubling aspects of the DVPA’s restraining order provisions that merit judicial and/or legislative redress.
Under the DVPA, it is very easy for a woman to allege domestic violence and get a restraining order (aka “protection order”). New Jersey issues 30,000 restraining orders annually, and men are targeted in 4/5ths of them. The standard is “preponderance of the evidence” (often conceptualized as 51%-49%), and judges almost always side with the accusing plaintiff.
Under the DVPA, the accuser need not even claim actual abuse. Alleged verbal threats of violence are sufficient, even though it’s almost impossible for the accused to provide substantive contradictory evidence.
The restraining order boots the man out of his own home and generally prohibits him from contacting his own children. Men are cut off from their possessions and property, and some end up in homeless shelters.
Update: Vox Day has more on New Jersey's lack of regard for the Constitution when it comes to men and domestic violence.
Labels: men's activism, men's rights
posted by Helen at 9:14 AM
48 Comments:
The biggest flaw in all of this is the presumption that laws have any effect on intimate partner abuse whatsoever. It's a problem of human relationships and emotion, and there's just no way to legislate that.
I have conflicting thoughts on the matter. I'm all about standing up for the trampled rights (and reputation) of men, and clearly the system is set up to allow a great deal of abuse, but on the other hand, prudence would seem to dictate that we err on the side of caution. I don't know if there is a way adequately address one of these issues without doing so at the expense of the other.
I, too, have conflicted feeling on this subject, and I live in NJ. On the one hand, prudence and compassion dictate that a woman threatened with physical violence should have the legal means to protect herself. On the other hand, the cavalier manner in which many restraining orders are granted makes it very easy for a woman to exploit her male partner's legal vulnerability (and don't tell me that thousands of women aren't gleefully exploiting this tactic, much to their partner's wrongful suffering).
It's like the welfare system: We all want the poor and needy to receive the food and necessaries to help them get along, but when you set up any governmental system, you get governmental oversight...deaf, dumb and blind. Small wonder when welfare was instituted, the ranks of the poor exploded.
And not to sound cynical, but I really wonder how many women married men who suddenly and without any notice became violent SOBs. You'd think there would have been some sign of this behavior BEFORE the rings were exchanged. The more I look at domestic violence, the more I wonder about the people dying to get married.
My future ex was granted a restraining order because "I might yell at her".
This comment has been removed by the author.
Just in case anyone is interested, a restraining order, OR an order of protection is only enforceable against a law abiding, non-violent WOMAN as well. Been there, done that. Trouble is, they are rarely enforced against a woman - if at all. I can only (again) speak for my own experiences.
My ex took one each of the above out on me, and then proceeded to break them both by calling and harassing (which she still does about every 3 months - like mary - 12 years later) and coming over and storming right into the house yelling and screaming over something she must have dreamed, because as with everything else she accused me of, it never happened.
Long and short, she was trying to get me to do something in anger. Keeping my head only made her more nuts. I should have filmed it. "Fatal Attraction" wouldn't have been able to hold a candle to my home movie.
But the police and medical professionals knew she was a nut case, and never enforced anything against her. She broke her own orders. Go figure. They let her do as she wished. My kids and I had to move - out of state, three times, three states, before she finally backed off.
But men are treated fairly, OK?
I don't have conflicting feelings on this. These protective orders are routinely used by attorneys as a tool to gain the upper hand, usually against the man. From what I've seen abuse is rampant.
When a protective order are truly needed, it usually doesn't work because the abuser doesn't care about the threat anyway. Plus, if there is actual assault or just threats, there are already laws to take care of that.
If ROs weren't routinely abused by "victims" there wouldn't be much of a movement to curtail their use now would there?
If "domestic violence' is as pervasive in society as womens groups suggest then it can clearly be proved by a more reliable standard of proof than one which is equivalent to a coin toss. And, since eye-witness testimony is considered the least credible, it doesn't take a statistician to know that when tossing a fair coin, over time, you will be right 50% of the time, but you will also be wrong 50% of the time.
Claiming "there are [often] no other witnesses in a "he said /she said" case infers the only basis for seeking a restraining order is the credibility of the accuser. Accordingly it is the preponderance of evidence that would "make it easier for judges, if they have any doubt as to a victim's credibility, to deny a restraining order".
The bottom line is simple. Not even "beyond a reasonable doubt" has prevented those falsely accused of murder or rape from execution and/or rotting in jail.
But protecting the masses of poor, defenseless women is not really womens groups purpose. The purpose is, in fact, the desire to use the restraining order as a means of intimidation within a marriage and as a first strike weapon in divorce.
jpinnj: Have you ever been stalked?
"That it is better 100 guilty Persons should escape than that one innocent Person should suffer, is a Maxim that has been long and generally approved." - Benjamin Franklin
But according to the New Jersey Law Journal, Judge Richard Russell of Ocean City, NJ made the following statements (on tape) in a judicial training session regarding restraining orders:
Source (pdf of scanned New Jersey Law Journal article):
http://www.fathersandhusbands.org/NJ_Rights_1.pdf
http://www.fathersandhusbands.org/NJ_Rights_2.pdf
"Your job is not to become concerned about the constitutional rights of the man that you're violating as you grant a restraining order," he said. "Throw him out on the street, give him the clothes on his back and tell him, see ya around ...The woman needs this protection because the statute granted her that protection ... They have declared domestic violence to be an evil in our society. So we don't have to worry about the rights."
Regarding DV policy, the National Academy of Sciences states as follows here http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10849&page=6
“As a previous National Research Council committee found, the design of prevention and control strategies…frequently is driven by ideology and stakeholder interest rather than by plausible theories and scientific evidence of causes”
I've never been stalked, but I've also never been tossed out of my own home either. I think that the Founding Father were quite clear that depriving a citizen of their property unjustifiably was quite verboten under that funny Constitution thing--and I think that this might be a tack to get new standards enforced.
If a lawyer stands up in court and says something fundamentally untrue (i.e., "Mr. Jones is a menace..."), regardless of the need to be an advocate for their client, there should be ramifications like loss of law license. Unfortunately, you have all three branches of government dominated by lawyers so, hey, what are the odds of _that_ happening?
I think that the day is coming where people will wonder when the rule of law ceased being respected. It will be the "minor terrors" like this that gradually pushed things to the point where the fabric of our society ripped. But, hey, let's not "worry about the rights"...
cham: Have you ever been accused of terrible things that you, your friends, neighbors, children, police, lawyers, doctors, and judges know full well you did not do - but has been allowed to stand anyway?
Ever been told to pack up your kids and move, have to leave a career job of 25 years and move out of state, only to be followed by the very same accuser? And that same accuser still bothers you 3 or 4 times a year a dozen years later - after following you around just to find out where you live to be able to keep making your life impossible? Ever sat down and seriously contemplated taking somebody out, because you felt that may be the only way your kids would be safe? And that person is someone you said "I do" to 23 years earlier? Ever seen someone snap so hard, so completely and permanently, that they are totally unrecognizable?
The nut house door swings both ways, cham. So I can say yes, I've been stalked. It's sort of still going on, matter of fact.
One could say your simple question touched a nerve, eh?
To Cham:
No I have never been stalked, but I have been setup and thrown out of my house and ripped away from my children on false accusations of DV by my now ex-wife who was meeting in secret with her divorce attorney for 6 weeks before she went down to the courthouse with her attorney to file for a TRO based on my sliding a box across the kitchen counter.
You see she and her attorney had planned it for weeks even down to detail of making sure the "correct" judge was presiding on this "special day".
Have you ever been falsely accused, thrown out of your house and ripped away from your children CHAM
BR549:
If you didn't get an order of restraint on your exwife, you most certainly should have done so.
Cham:
Have you ever been accused of terrible things that you, your friends, neighbors, children, police, lawyers, doctors, and judges know full well you did not do - but has been allowed to stand anyway?
Have you ever been falsely accused, thrown out of your house, and/or ripped away from your children?
Also, "Those pesky women simply won't behave right to make men happy."
Personally, I've always found that making other people happy is one of the greatest, most wonderful and uplifting joys in life that a person could ever experience.
Apparently, though, in the Chamiverse, that isn't the case -- at least, when the people to be made happy are male, and the person to be experiencing that greatest and most wonderful and uplifting of joys is female, that is.
Tell us, Cham: why do you want to deny so deeply rewarding and pleasureable an experience to not only yourself, but other women as well, as it appears you do?
Hm, maybe it would be OK to tone down the words a bit. I'm sure there are men who got unfair restraining orders without any real reason for that, but there are also stalkers who should be restrained. Men and women. The problem is telling them apart. If the legislation and court practices are lacking, they should be changed; but as far as I can see, restraining orders are a necessary tool in some cases.
Or are they? Someone claimed above that, in the cases in which restraining orders are really necessary (the restrained spouse is really a bad person, a stalker, a threat, etc.), it doesn't work, because the spouse in question ignores it. Is that so? Can you ignore a restraining order? I thought this would imply severe consequences (prison, etc.)
Cham: "Have you ever been stalked?"
Have you ever been stalked and tried to defend yourself with a piece of paper?
Conversely, have you ever had a judge tell you that you can't go near your wife, property or children because your wife has exploited her smaller physical size and her talent for tear-duct dramatics to cast you in the light of an aggressor so that, when the divorce proceedings arrive, they arrive on the coattails of an RO that already makes you suspect in the eyes of a jury?
Let's get back to the basis here: ROs only work with law-abiding citizens, NOT THE CREEPS FOR WHOM THEY WERE INVENTED. Or have you never read of a woman murdered by a guy who looked upon an RO the same way Hitler looked upon that flapping bit of paper Neville Chamberlain so famously waved in the air??
Here is the results of a study regarding reoffenses after a protective order has been issued.
Filing for a protective order resulted in a significant (66%) decline in abuse in the cases examined by this study.
It's an interesting study, take a look.
Cham, try reading what's been written by the people you want to criticize. BR549 clearly stated that he had a restraining order but the authorities chose not to enforce it.
So from you're great fount of wisdom, please share, what should he have done then?
CHAM
mandatory arrest laws and resulting restraining orders have increased partner homicides by 54%, according to a recent Harvard University study.
“Mandatory arrest laws are responsible for an additional 0.8 murders per 100,000 people.” –Radha Iyengar, PhD
I took a look at the study cham. And ignoring for a moment that 200 couples in one county is hardly enough of a statistical universe to base any sort of predictions on, the entire concept of the study is flawed. It's assuming that all of the cases where a woman filed for a protective order were legitimate.
I.E., that there was violence before the order was sought. I don't think anyone here is complaining about women who are being abused getting legal help, they're upset that the whole process of getting a po makes it easy for a woman to claim abuse, or the threat of abuse where there's been none.
I'm not criticizing anyone. All I have done here is ask one question which has generated a rather interesting set of responses.
We don't know enough about BR549's case to make a judgment. Mind you, I'm not saying he didn't experience a bad situation.
Oh, please cham. Of course you're criticizing. And you have done more than ask a question. You told Br549 to get a restraining order if he didn't have one. Even though he stated that he did have one, but that it hadn't been enforced.
Listen (or read in this case) before you speak (or type as the case may be).
And I didn't ask you to make a judgement in his (Br549) case. Any judgement you (or I, or any of us) make is irrelevant. Since you were so quick to jump in with advice I was just asking you what advice you'd give him now.
Extending on Rigel Kent:
and the overall Family Courts system's blanket acceptance without critical review or analysis "that women would not make false abuse accusations"
Absolute power corrupt absolutely and that is what the family court system has handed to women that choose to manipulate the system for their own personal gain.
The preconception that NO women would ever do that by the family court and that every man is an "evil perpetrator of the patriarchy" is the problem.
Judge's need to be Judges not politically correct hacks handing out an RO to any women that asks for it because it is the politically correct thing to do.
No family court judge will end up in the newspaper headlines by throwing a thousand men out in the street.
Yet the fear by judges of being criticized publicly by a Feminist media for not ordering an RO is overwhelming.
Part of the reason judges tend to side with the plaintiff is the CYA principle (you probably already know CYA stands for "cover your ass").
As a security professional, I frequently see wasted resources on CYA. No one wants to be on the hot seat.
In the case of domestic violence, as much as I see false accusations as a very troublesome epidemic, I can see where a judge would err on the side of the plantiff. It's not fair, but it is reasonable for them to worry that if they decline it and the plantiff ends up hurt or dead, that women's groups may form a lynch mob that the judge refused to help her when she asked for it. (The way groups like NOW are these days, the lynch mob might form even if nothing happens.)
Some sleeze divorce "counselors" and lawyers often coach wives to call 911 too quickly and see counselors about psychological abuse because it gives an advantage in divorce court. One way to reduce frivilous accusations is to make them less beneficial to the accuser.
No easy answers.
"Those pesky women simply won't behave right to make men happy."
This always gives me a chuckle since feminists are huge proponents of making a man "behave right," often through abusing the legal system, to make them "happy." (an impossible feat. making them happy that is.)
Cham, sadly, that is a really poorly designed study that does not tell us anything. Here are some of the problems:
- there are no validity or reliability measures.
- there is precious little data at all, it is based on self reports and filed protective order requests rather than any verified data!
- it is more opinion and reporting than it is science.
Just a for instance, a woman (the study only included women victims) files a false protective order against a man whom she says was attacking her. He was not, she just filed it to annoy the man or as a legal maneuver to keep him from his children. There is nothing to keep a case like that from being included in the study. So this woman, who was never attacked, is not attacked after the order of protection. This would be included in the data that "shows" that protective order's reduce violence.
Garbage study. It would never pass peer review in a decent journal that was interested in science.
Trey
linguista wrote: "but as far as I can see, restraining orders are a necessary tool in some cases. (snip)
Can you ignore a restraining order? I thought this would imply severe consequences (prison, etc.)"
It is my experience that people can ignore amazingly bad consequences. Hell, I can too! I used to smoke cigarettes!
Necessary tools work. I am not sure that these work, but I agree that people deserve protection. Maybe they should invest in a 38 caliber restraining order.
Trey
One can't legally kill someone for following a person, yelling at a person, or threatening a person through phone calls, emails or voicemails. The 38 caliber restraining order would have some serious ramifications for the stalking victim.
cham - your question to jpinnj about having been stalked is irrelevant to the issue here.
The issue here is the unjustifiable deprivation of men from their property and especially association with their children MERELY because women can get away with it. Also, the title of the original post makes the point that ACTUAL abusers don't often let little things like restraining orders bother them.
So I will ask it differently than I have seen it above:
WHAT should be done when a man can be forced out of his house for the heinous crime of throwing a cat toy and knocking his wife's glasses askew (happened to a former coworker)? Or, more to the point, when ALL accusations of DV by the accuser are known to be LIES? Or when the only violence going on is AGAINST THE MAN?
cham --
I'm not criticizing anyone. All I have done here is ask one question which has generated a rather interesting set of responses.
Pull the other one, cham. Your questions are crafted to attempt to make the recipient look like they had neglected some important variable.
"Have you ever been stalked?"
Which has what to do with an RO obtained under false pretenses?
If you didn't get an order of restraint...
I'll give you the benefit of ignorance. ROs work on both parties, not just one. The fact BR549s ex broke the RO struck you as copacetic?
We don't know enough about BR549's case to make a judgment.
Really? It fits with all his previous posts and provided quite enough information to judge that his ex was abusing the system to harass him and his kids. How is it you didn't get that?
The 38 caliber restraining order would have some serious ramifications for the stalking victim.
He's talking about the knowledge that you are not defenseless deterring to a greater degree than a piece of paper and to when the perp shows up at your house threatening violence. But, you knew that.
Wayne:
If you look at the data you will find that a significant percentage of stalkers, rapists, physical and verbal abusers get the message quite clearly through a temporary restraining order to stay away from the object of their rage. (Anyone is free to cite a study that says otherwise)
Again, we don't know enough about the situation with your coworker to make a judgment on his particular case.
Olig is making assumptions about where I was going with my question. The question was just a question.
BR549 and Wayne are explaining situations from their point of view, which is within their right. However, I am not going to comment because we have no idea whether what they say is fact or there is more information. I'm not accusing either one of lying or providing false information, just opting not make a judgment.
And again, cham, you don't address the issue. What is to be done if there is a significant number of these restraining orders that are either predicated on lies, or without need for any actual violence or credible threat of violence in order to get it?
Olig is making assumptions about where I was going with my question. The question was just a question.
Your questions, and some of your comments, have been asked in such a way as to imply that the other person is lying (directly or by omission), disclaimers to the contrary.
I removed my comment about a man I know who got an apparently unjustified restraining order against him during a divorce. He was just arrested for trying to kill her. In this case, the restraining order was apparently justified. I suspect he was lying to me about its reasons.
Yes, I still think they are too easy to get in too many jurisdictions, but that doesn't mean they aren't always justified. Of course, it also means that having a gun to enforce it when it is justified would be helpful.
Logic gets its butt kicked by emotion every day. That's why there are the problems there are in this world.
My ex is mentally ill. Not her fault, but impossible to deal with none the less. The professionals did not (do not) want to deal with her. Nor do the police. As she has not actually shot, stabbed, or run over me or any of my kids, she remains at large. In order for her to be incarcerated in any way, someone would have to be seriously injured - or killed. Were it the other way round, with the same powers that be, I'd have been jailed a long time ago. I have a penis. And white skin. I have been told as much. Say what you want. But there it is. By the way, I am not blaming anyone without a penis, or with other than white skin. It is the embedded powers that be that need to be removed. The ones who have jobs for life. Not so much the elected officials, who come and go.
I'm not here to pick on cham. But what I have been through, and continue to a lesser degree to go through still, would not wish on anyone. It has ruined a major portion of my life. It is beyond my ability to fully explain it.
Guys,
Why do you keep responding to this man hating, feminazi troll Cham?! Why do you do that?! It's obvious that she doesn't want to be confused with the facts or the truth, as this would ruin her feminazi world view.
I haven't been married; after having been pulled through the family court meatgrinder (courtesy of a false accusation here in NJ), I realized that I, as a man, have NO RIGHTS WHATSOEVER. DV is whatever Wifey says it is, folks.
In my case, I was stalked by a girl who I dated briefly, but she then blew me off. She would follow me home from work; show up at my hangouts; drive by my house, etc. She then went to the cops, and accused ME of doing all the above to HER! I got hauled out of my domicile one night in handcuffs, a la Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany; I got arrested & cuffed based SOLELY ON THE BASIS OF SOMEONE'S WORD...
I had to go to family court for an RO hearing. It was worse than a kangaroo court; that would have been halfway honest! How biased was it? One, the judge ruled in favor of the women ALL DAY LONG. It didn't matter what she did, or if it was worse than what the man had done; the women got favorable rulings. Two, when my attorney stood to argue a SALIENT & RELEVANT LEGAL POINT pertaining to my case, the judge cut him off in midsentence-just cut him off! That black robed SOB did NOT want to hear it! It would have been one thing to over rule my attorney after he argued my point; but, he wasn't allowed to even do THAT much! Finally, Judge Richard Russell must have trained my judge, since my Constitutional rights were not respected at all during this whole thing...
MarkyMark
Some of the commenters aren't exactly supporting their POV about unjustified orders of protection when they use copious amounts of capital letters and name calling. ;)
A little lesson in proper usage cham, when one person does something you use the singular. In this case it would be commenter, not commenters.
Secondly either the facts we present are accurate or they are not. How we present them does not alter that. Would it be nice if everybody were polite? Certainly.
But considering what a horrible experience it can be, I can understand how someone might not be interested in social nicieties.
Human nature is such that when an oppurtunity presents itself to abuse power it will eventually be abused. Even a casual knowledge of history will confirm that.
Does that mean everybody who files for a po is abusing the power the state has folloishly given them? No. It doesn't even mean that most of them do. But when you give that kinf of power out, it will be abused.
The problem with the po is that when a woman asks for one, she soesn't have to prove that a man did anything. As the judge says himself, they are violating the man's constitutional rights when they grant one.
Is domestic violence horrible? Should a person doing it be stopped? Should they be punished? A resounding yes to all three. But you should have to prove that the man committed the crime before you punish him.
Why do you believe that's an unreasonable expectation cham?
Sorry you dated a loon, markymark.
You found what I have stated many times in this blog, and will repeat again now, and as often as it takes.
Anyone, everyone: take a week off work. Go sit in the back row of a local divorce court for that entire week. Listen, and watch. You simply will not believe what goes on. When one considers it is a single court, in one town, for one week, it's incredible. It's crazy. If you have a friend considering marriage, send him there. Then give him a case of beer and a one way bus ticket to the opposite corner of the country from where he lives. That'll give him at least a couple days to think it over. With a one way bus ticket, should he decide he still wants to go through with it, he'll have to pay his own way back.
You do not know me, cham. I do not know you. I am very happy that is the case.
Please cite where I have written an opposing view, rigel.
Hey, I sometimes agree with Cham and sometimes disagree, but I have never thought of cham as a bigot and I have read lot's of cham's posts.
Cham, I appreciate your asking for a study that says that protective orders don't work, so I looked for one. In the time I looked, I found that there are not many studies that have been done on the matter that I could find! There are two that are widely quoted, the one you mentioned that was flawed and another that I have not been able to track down yet.
Of the others, I found some interesting patterns. One study that was very positive on the helpfullness of protective orders stated that over 50% of women (all the studies I found were about women filing protective orders on "criminals," I mean men) reported assaults after the order. One study claimed 3 in 5 women were assaulted.
Another study I found talked about a service offered where the woman who filed the order can call anumber to see if the order has been served. The article said that the first 48 hours after the order is served (it takes from 2 weeks to 3 months to actually SERVE the order) is quite dangerous for hte woman as the chances of violent acting out are much higher during those two days.
So I was left with questions about how and why the studies claim that the orders work! Over 50% of the women are assaulted after it is served, serving the order immediatley escalates the chances of violence, and it takes between two weeks and three months to have one served! None of that sounds acceptable to me, and that is not even addressing protective order abuse.
So I remain concerned about the problem and how to get people some safety, but more skeptical about protective orders being worth a damn.
Trey (still looking for a good study on them)
My husband was stalked. For years. The police to this day have done squat...he's a big strong man and his stalker is a 98-pound fairly pretty girl. 98-pound girls can still set your house on fire (as she has threatened on occasion), but it's seen as funny when a man asks for help with a problem like this. She still pops up once a year of so, drives us crazy for a week or two with calls in the wee hours, and then she disappears again till the next time. I'm hoping that one day she'll forget about us.
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