Thursday, May 08, 2008

Ask Dr. Helen: Do Husbands Owe Wives Post-Childbirth ‘Push Presents?’

My PJM column is up:

A recent survey found 55% of pregnant mothers expected a 'push present' from their husband. Is it appropriate and what does it say about a woman who insists on getting such a gift?


Go read the column and let me know your opinion.

Labels:

56 Comments:

Blogger Major-General said...

I'm against the idea; rather "Okay, one ceasarian it is."

One problem I see relates to my view about pregnancy, teen pregnancy in particular. Every decision has consequences which ought to be weighed before making a choice. Sex has implicit high-risk consequences; pregnancy (and children) being one of them.

Discounting pregnancy from rape (no choice or a Hobbsian choice), the risk of pregnancy is accepted with free will. You should not therefore expect special dispensation because you perceived a "burden" or "unpleasantness" due to a choice you made.

Or to put it in terms for juveniles and delinquents: don't play if you're not prepared to pay. (I apologize for the crudity of this statement.)

6:15 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

You gave good advice, Helen.

6:22 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

What's next, men have to pay women to marry them?

By giving them a very expensive asset ?

Oh, they already do that (diamond ring).

6:37 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

I liked your advice too. It would not have occurred to me to expect a gift after my kids were born. Gifts were the last thing on my mind! I don't know any women who expected gifts.

I'm also glad you didn't just assume the woman is materialistic and demanding "gifts" but took the husband at his word that this seemed out of character for her.

6:47 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

The child is the gift.

6:55 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

Well, I just reread the NYT article and saw something I'd missed before: one woman called childbearing a "sacrifice." I guess if a person has the attitude that having a baby is a sacrifice, she's going to want some compensation for it.

And, I realized that my husband did give me a present of sorts: we had arranged for air conditioning to be installed in our house, and the guy was arriving early the morning after our first child was born. So my husband had to get up at the crack of dawn (after only a few hours of poor sleep in the hospital following the midnight birth) to go leave a key and a note for the installer. I was left to get to know our new baby. Who deserved the gift?

7:42 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

How about a menstral present to go with it? I've frequently heard wives use their montly cycle as an excuse for bad behavior that is borderline unbearable to their husbands. Maybe they should get their husbands gifts as payback for putting up with it. The worse their treatment of him during this time, the bigger the gift.

Now, for the record, I think such an idea would be nuts. But no more nuts than a husband basically paying his wife to have their baby, something she'd probably want as much as him. My wife even says that as scary as pregnancy would be for her, she'd be jealous if I was the one who could carry the child. It should be teamwork all along--he should care for her during her pregnancy while she is far from 100%.

Seems there is a climate that when things are difficult for a man, he should suck it up and "understand," but when things are difficult for a woman, it's a man's job to even it out. Not good for marriage.

7:52 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Heather said...

Strange Helen, I never would have thought of a gift for having a baby. But when my husband gets a raise or a promotion I make sure he gets that expensive gadget he’s been wanting. The Pro-present just makes sense.
Is child baring a sacrifice, yes. It’s a sacrifice you make to bring a child in to this world. Then both my births went pair shaped.

8:12 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

What a woman is saying when she expects a gift is that sex — and by extension, child-bearing — must be compensated by a man. This exchange boils down to legal prostitution (nothing wrong with prostitution in my book, but call a spade a spade).

I find this extremely offensive - why? Because it also equates stay at home moms with being prostitutes since they expect to be compensated with a homes, food and clothing by the man for staying home. Do you also believe that stay at home moms are prostitutes?

Now to the topic of push presents - in my social circle they are called baby gifts and some women get them and some don't. I don't actually know of anyone who has seriously pressured their husband for one however, but I will say that I think you (and the man who posed the question) are dead on with regards to the attitude of entitlement. No one deserves a gift.

8:15 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

"Because it also equates stay at home moms with being prostitutes since they expect to be compensated with a homes, food and clothing by the man for staying home."

--

I'll give my opinion on that:

That's EXACTLY what they are, and dishonest, lazy prostitutes to boot. They aren't even upfront about it, and I assume the men allow the women to sit home because they don't think a woman would be interested in them if they actually proposed a fair relationship.

This is no longer 1870 where women had to really work at home. March of progress and all.

Let's at least be honest about what is going on with sit-at-homes.

8:22 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

To qualify my previous statement:

If you have small children, or if you home school, then you are working at home.

Otherwise, my statement stands.

8:24 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

Okay jg I'll bite - what is a fair relationship in your mind?

8:30 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

8:31 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

Keeping in mind that I'm not talking about the woman who sits at home all day watching soaps and Oprah and the house is a mess, shopping isn't done and dinner isn't ready and then complains that she's too busy to do any of those things.

8:32 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Space,

You are making the analogy that stay at home moms are acting like prostitutes. I said no such thing. Women or men who raise children and do housework are working, just as women and men in the work world are working. Women who feel entitled to gifts for having children are acting no different than a prostitute. They are expecting payment for sex and childbirth--what do you call it? Like I said in the article, nothing wrong with being a prostitute, just don't be hypocritical about what you are.

8:37 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Cham said...

There seem to be a great deal of directives here on what women should or should not do, say or act. If a man wants to buy his baby momma a gift then all power to him. What couples do regarding births are their business.

9:13 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

Cham sez:

"If a man wants to buy his baby momma a gift then all power to him."

--

I don't think anyone is calling for legal / police action to prevent the man from buying a woman a gift for whatever reason he wants.

I don't even really care if he wants to stick a hot poker in his eye.

Otherwise, though, are people allowed to comment on it? Or do we just have to stick to the usual topics like whether the toilet seat should be up or down?

Ya gotta get more specific about what we're allowed to give an opinion on and what not, Cham.

9:41 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Cham,

As I said in the column, if a man wants to give a woman a gift voluntarily, I agree with you. But should he be forced or coerced to do so by his wife and other women who "expect" this and feel entitled to it and then be looked down on by his wife and others if he does not follow through with their expectations?

9:50 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Anne B. said...

Full disclosure: I have five children, and nothing like a ``push present'' even occurred to me. If I'd seen that article, I would have laughed and said ``Jesus, do you believe this?'' and then shown it to my husband. He knows me better than to think I'd be dropping a hint.

Helen - it's not Space who's calling stay-at-home women prostitutes, it's jg, and he does it on almost every thread he comments on. (OK, he doesn't always say prostitute. Sometimes it's merely parasite, or scum.)

BTW, men ``paying'' women to marry them - or rather, paying the woman's family for her - goes waaay back. It's called a ``brideprice.'' Germanic tribes practiced it, as did Eurasian nomads.

10:00 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Anne b.

Space is using my quotes from the column so I assume he or she is talking to me.

Thanks for your comments about the brideprice. I have read about this and understand it had use years ago, but hopefully times have changed.

10:13 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

I said no such thing.

No, but it is a logical conclusion from your flawed analogy. So when she's done "working" in the home as a wife/mother then does the husband stop paying her way since she may not be able to find employment for a variety of reasons or her husband simply may not want her to work outside of the home is she a prostitute or not?

10:15 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Space,

You have a problem with interpretation. I will leave it at that.

10:17 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

No, I get what you are saying, you are simply unwilling to admit you are using a very flawed analogy, but that is of course, your perogative.

10:19 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Space,

In your own words, "... I will say that I think you (and the man who posed the question) are dead on with regards to the attitude of entitlement. No one deserves a gift."

Then we agree.

10:29 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

My opinion on "push gifts":

WTF?! Are you serious? Does this actually exist? How can anyone be so entitlement-obsessed and hubristic as to actually expect something like that?

These are rhetorical questions, obviously. Bloody effing hell.

11:12 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Nihimon said...

I just want to point out how skillfuly Dr. Helen starts off her post by giving profoundly good advice that doesn't directly address the question but may, in fact, prove to be exactly what the writer needed to hear.

This is what you get when you have smart, focused people who are genuinely interested in helping others rather than saying something controversial to gin up readership. (can anyone say "AdviceGoddess"?)

Kudos, Dr. Helen.

11:30 AM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

Anne B. sez:

"... it's jg, and he does it on almost every thread he comments on."

---

Tattle-tale.

12:13 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Joe said...

I think Helen's analogy is correct. However, if a stay-at-home mom set having a house, a certain amount of money and so forth as a condition of sexual relations with her husband, then yes, she would be a prostitute.

A "push present" is fine IF it is genuine gift; i.e. one freely given without any expectation of reciprocation.

As soon as conditions are attached to a gift or if any coercion is involved, it becomes something else. This is why I will have nothing to do with, for example, Valentine's day, Mother's day and Father's day. I even find birthdays generally distasteful for the same reason. (This approach, however, plays into my hands. My wife knows I never get anything for the aforementioned days, which means when I do, it's a genuine gift. I'm doing that this week--yes, it's kind of silly since it's a kitchen appliance we need anyway, but it will make her happy.)

2:53 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

It seems more and more women are expecting gifts for an ever increasing number of occasions. Pretty soon they'll expect a gift for getting up in the morning.

3:52 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

I liked the comment by Boris about a "thrust payment."

Space: Being paid for doing a job is called work, or you might help someone you love, but if you are getting paid to have sex then it is prostitution. The women who invented the term "push presents" and demand such a gift are expecting to be compensated for the affliction of a child. A wife and husband should want to have sex with each other out of love and attraction, not to gain something. This topic reminds me of Obama's quote about being "punished with a baby."

Nihimon: I just want to point out how skillfuly Dr. Helen starts off her post by giving profoundly good advice that doesn't directly address the question but may, in fact, prove to be exactly what the writer needed to hear.

I agree with you. Helen seems really compassionate and understanding and I think it helps her to understand men better. Although sometimes a commentator doesn't get to see this. It is also a plus to hear from an advice columnist that actually has morals.

4:26 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Space said...

Being paid for doing a job is called work, or you might help someone you love, but if you are getting paid to have sex then it is prostitution. The women who invented the term "push presents" and demand such a gift are expecting to be compensated for the affliction of a child

Yes, in this case the job happens to be actually having the child, not the sex. Did sex lead to the child - certainly, but these women do not seem to be asking for gifts for the sex or they would presumably be asking for a gift for each and every act. A more appropriate analogy might be a petulant child, but not a prostitute. If you attempt to hold to that metric then any woman who has ever been disappointed and visibly annoyed with her husband because he forgot her birthday, anniversary or whatever is also a prostitute. Interesting though process.

Generally I love how Dr. Helen points out how male bashing prone our society is, but she's off base this time. It was simply a poor analogy, the general point she makes is valid however.

5:17 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

dadvocate: It seems more and more women are expecting gifts for an ever increasing number of occasions.

Marketing, man, marketing. You can't sell goods unless people think they need to buy them. Women's magazines are probably more ad than editorial content, and much of the time the editorial content supports the ads. It's easy to make women think they need something if it looks like all the other women are getting it. Or at least the rich, pretty ones.

5:45 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger Helen said...

Space,

Thanks very much for having an agreeable disagreement.

5:47 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger DADvocate said...

marbel - and I work in marketing research. Leading myself to destruction I guess.

10:05 PM, May 08, 2008  
Blogger K-Man said...

The kind of money that those women who expect a "push present" want spent on it would be better saved for hard times, retirement, or the baby's college fund. There is no end to (many) women's worthless, needless consumption borne of an entitlement mentality. And expensive jewelry is the biggest, stupidest waste of money of all.

12:05 AM, May 09, 2008  
Blogger JG said...

I've got the perfect gift for a woman who demands a push present: A muzzle.

3:22 AM, May 09, 2008  
Blogger serket said...

Space: I am not opposed to women who stay at home. Possibly because my mom has done that most of her adult life (with an occasional job) and the same applies to my dad's sister. They also seem to have positive views of men. I agree with JG to an extent and I think he makes good points sometimes and I also agree with your comment up above about women who do a poor job of maintaining the house and constantly bitch. Children are the end result of sex, and I don't see how that applies to birthdays and other holidays. Of course sex is also fun, but if it wasn't there would be a lot fewer children. I'm not opposed to giving a gift for a birth, but I just oppose the attitude of expecting a nice gift in exchange for the "misery" of having a child. As far as general gift giving goes I think small gifts such as chocolates, flowers or cards are legitimate. I think you should put more effort into birthdays and Christmas. Of course you should never spend more than you can reasonably afford.

1:05 PM, May 09, 2008  
Blogger Insignificon said...

I wouldn't dream of asking my husband for a push present (what a yucky phrase!). If you have to ask for it, it's not a gift anyway!

On the other hand, 9 months of pregnancy, hours of painful labor, months of sleepless nights...

A gift from a loving husband sure would be appropriate, don't you think? Like I said, I would never dream of asking. That would be completely lacking in class. I don't exactly expect a mother's day gift tomorrow, either, but I'm going to feel just a little bit unappreciated when I don't get one. I'm pretty sure my husband forgot about Mother's Day this year, and the kids are still too small to do anything for me. I'll get over it, and the women who expect tribute from their devoted lapdogs after they give birth ought to, too.

6:53 PM, May 10, 2008  
Blogger Tether said...

Insignificon,

If you want something, talk to your husband directly. We don't always get everything we want on this earth. But count your blessings anyway. Maybe think about your husband as well, not just yourself.

Your passive aggressive martyrdom would have me tearing my hair out in about 2 seconds. Your husband - whether you know it or not - is probably a saint for being able to put up with you. Get a new act.

7:13 PM, May 10, 2008  
Blogger Marbel said...

I don't exactly expect a mother's day gift tomorrow, either, but I'm going to feel just a little bit unappreciated when I don't get one.

But does your husband know that?

I have never been big on gifts for "hallmark holidays" but I admit I do like to "celebrate" mother's day (and father's day). And because my husband and I are raising children who we hope will be married someday, and will want to make their spouses happy, I think it's important to show kids how it's done.

At some point, my husband ignored or forgot or otherwise missed mother's day. So I just asked him to be sure our kids knew when it was and do something to acknowledge it. And now I have lots of handmade cards from my kids. It's fun to see the cards get more elaborate and the handwriting improve each year, even though I see that on their schoolwork anyway. (Heck, since I am their teacher, I fight with them over it.)

But suffering silently or getting angry isn't going to help. Demanding gifts isn't right, but I think it's appropriate to let one's spouse know if feelings are hurt when days like mother's day, valentine's day, etc. are ignored.

Being straightforward with your husband about things like this, in a direct but kind (not angry or pouting) way will make everyone happier. At least, that's been my experience.

7:37 PM, May 10, 2008  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Insignificon --

"A gift from a loving husband sure would be appropriate, don't you think?"

How about the other half of the child?

8:24 PM, May 10, 2008  
Blogger Jack said...

I gave my wife flowers, but it wasn't out of any sort of obligation. It was just a way to show my appreciation.

12:55 PM, May 11, 2008  
Blogger Trust said...

I think expectations like this will diminish any goodwill towards the wife on behalf of the husband. Now, if a guy wants to give his wife a present after they give birth, it is a thoughtful gesture, but if it becomes demanded, any such gesture will be "he only did that because he had to."

That's why men don't much like valentines day. It's a no win situation. You are either in the dog house for not doing enough, and anything you do that is enough is "that was only because it was valentines day."

I think undemanded gestures seem like the kindest ones for both parties.

9:15 PM, May 11, 2008  
Blogger The Overgrown Hobbit said...

Whatever happened to people who love each other wanting to do nice things for one another? Husband and Kids team up to be extra nice (with gifts of time, small things mom likes, etc.) to Wife; a month later Wife and Kids team up to do the same for Husband.

And if you have half a brain, agree to celebrate your anniversary on valentines day--you can't forget and it makes the holiday much sweeter and more romantic...

11:44 PM, May 11, 2008  
Blogger br549 said...

A very profound and true statement was made at the beginning of these posts. One I fully agree with as a dad who is hopelessly and happily in love with his children - and grandson!

The child is the gift.

What the hell is the matter with people?

6:44 AM, May 16, 2008  
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