Saturday, November 24, 2007

Holiday Drivers

Is it my imagination or are the current crop of holiday drivers mean as snakes and nuts to boot? I have been flipped off twice this week by drivers--both who were at fault. One driver with some real Christmas spirit--with a tree in the back of his truck for goodness sakes--ran a stop sign, almost hit us and had the gall to flip us a bird. Another car was using the turn lane to drive in as if it were a regular lane and was mad that I was there--uhh, turning. Naturally, the two young guys in the car had to jump up and down flipping birds. Then to top it off, a car crossed two lanes of traffic while I was going straight and nearly plowed into me; only by quickly pulling to the other side of the road did I avoid a collision. And they looked mad at me! Anyone out there experience this level of holiday cheer while out cruising around?

Update: Speaking of road rage, here is a pretty funny video from a movie of two women drivers who duke it out in a parking lot, make sure you catch the bumper sticker on the back of one of the cars stating, "War is not the answer."

68 Comments:

Blogger Stormbringer said...

Sounds like a typical day in upstate New York. But yes, it gets worse around the holidays. People walk the same way that they drive, unfortunately. Overall arrogance prevails during this season of good cheer.

1:22 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger MikeT said...

Living in Northern Virginia, or some place like it, will get you used to it. The female drivers are by far the worst. One of the best examples she has shared with me, was a woman who flicked her off, and then her entire brood proceeded to flick her off. She was the one who ultimately convinced me that women tend to be even worse around here than men with this sort of behavior.

Personally, I've said the best way to deal with road rage is to allow people who get seriously violent to pick a fight with someone who has a concealed carry permit. Nothing says "calm down" like a gun in your face.

1:31 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

When the kids grew beyond the "toys are us" stage, I quit hitting the road to shop for Christmas. Work, the grocery store, gas station, and barber shop are the remaining "have to's" for driving on a regular basis.

Otherwise, if I can't buy it on line, they don't need it. Except when traveling for business, a tank of gas lasts two weeks. I do miss driving around naked at night, though.

2:54 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger Dave F said...

Live in a city and ditch the car. Problem solved.

Amazing how easy that is.

3:11 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger vivictius said...

You mean live in one of the couple dozen or so cities that are built in such a way that you dont require a car. In most of this country that really is not an option.

3:20 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger Dave F said...

If driving around holiday drivers is such a problem then the option is live where one does not need a car. So, you either deal with it or you make living in a city an option.

This is a problem with an easy solution.

5:03 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger Major-General said...

Sounds like another fine day in Southern California.

Dave F: To repeat, there are literally maybe twenty to thirty cities in the United States at the maximum where that is a serious option.

I'm pretty sure Knoxville isn't one of them. I know that where my sister lives isn't (Tulsa), and frankly where I live (Oxnard, CA) really isn't. Unless you like waiting a half hour to an hour to catch every bus.

5:25 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Everyone who gives me the finger is at fault. :-)

I use the correct lane, drive rather safely, etc. 40 years without an accident attests to my driving skills. But I will be a little aggressive and "unpredictable" in my driving at times. I figure if people are scared to get too close to me, they can't run into me.

6:48 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger ras said...

fwiw, this Canadian has concluded from personal experience that Eastern US drivers are, on average, much more aggressive than their Western counterparts. Not more aggressive/bold, just more aggressive/foolish.

When you don't clamp down on the really dangerous ones - and govts in your country as well as mine are more interested these days in collecting fines than in making the roads safer, rhetoric notwithstanding - the competition begins, and it spreads.

8:11 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger Friend of USA said...

Another Canadian here,
I don't know where you are ras but I am in quebec, about 5 miles south of Montreal
The culture or mentally is a bit different here than in the rest of Canada since here in quebec about 90% are french speaking ( by the way my mother tongue is french)

and people here definitely give you the finger when they are at fault just like in the examples given by DrHelen.

and they are at fault a lot,

people here have more accident per capita than anywhere else in North America ( sorry no link, I heard it on French speaking tv )

I have been driving since 1976 and I can tell you that this strange behavior which was rare back then is getting worse every year.

I find women are just as bad as men ...here anyway.

9:32 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger David said...

It's not just at holiday time, but over the last several years I've noticed a real decline in the use of turn signals. Post and discussion here.

10:15 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger gliderguider said...

That's not a bird -- it doesn't even have any wings. *This* is more like a bird...

(sorry, can't help myself, I'm from NZ)

I'm afraid that multiple people in the moveable roadblocks they call cars trying to kill you in any ten minute period is pretty much par for the course when you're on a motorcycle. Well, just 'cause they wanna doesn't mean I'm obliged to let them. And they haven't managed to so much as make contact with me so far in thirty years and about 400,000 km on public roads.

I'm a firm believer that any smash takes at least two people driving badly. You can make mistakes -- just don't make yours at the same time as someone near to you on the road makes theirs.

11:43 PM, November 24, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

In the third world, I write it off to cultural issues. I might be right and I might not be.

I am absolutely convinced that americans love to hate each other, and the road is where all the pent up hatred comes out.

About 10 years ago I decided to treat virtually all a-hole drivers as if they were any other road hazard, like a rock falling off of a cliff a pothole in the road, for for instance while flying a plane, a thunderstorm. They are a hazard to be dealt with but you can't allow them to affect you emotionally. If they weren't doing it to you whey would be doing to to someone else.

Now the rock or the pothole or the thunderstorm may have evil and malicious intent, they may even be trying to kill me for all I know. But their presence is a given, they will always be there, just like asshole drivers, so the logical response is to learn proper avoidance techniques while devoting no more of your emotional energy to them as you would the sun for giving you a sunburn.

12:42 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

gliderger:

In my 35 years of driving, I have had four accidents which resulted in major damage to the car. Each of those was determined by the police to be the other guy's fualt, which is great for my insurance rates.

But in hindsight, I could have avoided each one of them if I had been paying more attention to what was going on around me, including people driving like idiots.

12:53 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

Bad driving and aggressive behavior do seem to be getting more common. Even in our Canadian small town it seems to be getting worse.


friend of the usa: Oh! I hate driving in Montreal. The weather is always BAD(1), the drivers aggressive and the routes confusing.
--------

1: I've been in Montreal 20 something times and the weather has ALWAYS been bad, so: The weather in Montreal MUST always be bad! LOL

It's my favorite example for the statistically challenged.

4:46 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Around my neck of the woods people are generally nice drivers, we operate on the 'courtesy is contagious' model. Of course, that chance of getting your head blown off for looking at someone the wrong way is really really high.

7:12 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

Helen,
Perhaps you are not as innocent a driver as you believe?

Generally speaking, people don't get angry at other drivers for no reason.

And 3 of them just randomly focusing their anger at innocent driver you, hmmmmm. Often times, we're not as aware of other drivers as we should be and this can result in multiple "near accidents." Are you testing out some new free technology device InstaHubby got in the mail while you should be concentrating on your surroundings?

Perhaps you need to slow down, look around a bit, and ask yourself why the other drivers are expressing frustration or impatience at your driving.

Work with other vehicles on the roads; chances are they are mad at your driving skills and its not purely coincidental that they are all finding fault with you. Unless you have some offensive bumper sticker or something that otherwise could be attracting negative attention?

7:28 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Stormbringer said...

What girderguider says is utter rubbish: "I'm a firm believer that any smash takes at least two people driving badly." After having spent several years driving professionally (plus my years driving in the first place), I can assure you that (a) it's not an American or East Coast phenomenon like some people suggest (thinking of my experience getting literally forced off the road in Ontario), and (b) some people are idiots who cause the wrecks. No matter how careful an individual is, he or she cannot anticipate every opportunity for the other driver to have a cerebral-rectal inversion.

8:09 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Friend of USA said...

Mary said,

Generally speaking, people don't get angry at other drivers for no reason.

Either you do not drive
or
you live in the nicest town on the planet
or
you do no understand what we are talking about.

In case I am one of those drivers who does not realize he is a bad driver, let me tell you that I live on a very busy boulevard, and from my living room window - not from my car - I see regularly such incidents in which a person did everything right ( stopped at the stop sign, had their turn signal on, waited their turn et cetera ) but some imbecile decided it was his/her turn and almost hits the person not at fault.
That happens very often, like every 15 minutes or so.

And when the person not at fault honks at them - which they should and have every right to - very often, I'd say about 8 times out of 10, the person at fault either gives the finger, honks back or makes an angry face!

You are right about one thing though; people do not get angry for no reason.

They get angry at us for daring complaining ( honking ) about their bad behavior.

They do have a reason, it is just a completely wrong reason.

8:55 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

mary -- Perhaps you just posted without reading all the previous comments? Yes, Virginia, there are a plethora of drivers out there who are asshats and drive bad and treat everyone else as if they are in the way and that excuses the terrible behavior.

I contracted around the country earlier in life and have to agree the NE is the worst area. I found the central states to be pretty nice outside of the larger cities.

I'm now in FL and oddly find it not that way here, despite somewhat manic driving and legal U-turns. Go figure.

8:57 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Memphis Steve said...

This is a daily thing in Memphis. Americans seem to be increasingly convinced that "it's all about me" and thus any mistake they make in traffic, and any stupid or obnoxious thing they do, is someone else's fault. How dare you try to use the turning lane to turn! Didn't you know that is their private driveway? I had a black man in a Jeep scream at me and try to jump out of his still moving vehicle and onto my hood because he was using the shoulder as his personal driveway when I had to use it to go around a wreck in the right-hand lane. What was I thinking?

9:49 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Friend of USA said...

Or maybe Mary is one of the drivers at fault fliping the bird DrHelen is describing?

She has the right attitude.

10:28 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Lamont said...

Actually, when I do something stupid on the road, I get stressed, upset, or scared.

Honk a horn at me at that moment, and you'll get ALL of that coming out of my middle finger and topped of with the best eat * and die glare I can give you. Even if it's ALL my fault.

And all before I've thought. It's a reflex. I'm already feeling like I'm in danger, and then you give me a focus for me fear and anger, other than myself.

Lamont

11:31 AM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Lamont,

I can understand the fear reflex but flipping someone off when it was your fault is likely to set someone off and is not a decent strategy to use on the road. Calm down.

1:10 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

Or maybe Mary is one of the drivers at fault fliping the bird DrHelen is describing?

She has the right attitude.


Nope, never flipped someone off while I was driving. Sorry, but true. That's not my instinct, and I don't drive competitively with other vehicles.

Did she honk? Did she make menacing gestures? Something maybe has been left out of the story. But 3 times in one day people just randomly flip you off while you're driving properly and not interferring with them?

I don't buy it. There's something missing. Maybe it's the honking that drew their attention to her. All three carloads.


Generally speaking, I think you get what you give in life. I don't see many poor drivers because I try to plan my routes and avoid peak traffic times. Not everyone is independent enought to schedule that way, I understand, but driving competitively does not help.

In road rage situations, it takes two to tango. Helen is right: calm down everyone. Don't get close enough to make eye contact (easy for me I guess, driving mostly rural roads where you pass if necessary instead of riding tail. My tail, that is)

Also, personal problems like caring for a sick relative, or worrying about money problems in this economy should not come out in driving. Not should any hand held devices. Plus, don't judge other people by the cars, trucks and SUVs they choose to drive.

I bet if you commenters followed those 3 easy rules, you'd see a lot less angry drivers. In your own vehicle and out.

2:11 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

My favorite fender bender involved a late twenties lady in an Audi who decided on a U-turn at the last moment. Braking hard, the fellow immediately behind her had to stand on it not to climb up her tail pipe. Four vehicles behind him were not as attentive. Instant 5 car pile up with no injuries.

I was on the opposite side of the four lane at the signal light that had just changed to red.

The woman who caused the wreck had no damage done to her vehicle. It was a warm and slightly windy spring day. She stepped out of her vehicle, and turned to face the carnage behind her. As she turned, a slight gust lifted her dress up to her shoulders for a second or so before she caught it and pulled it back down. She did not seem to be in a hurry to pull her dress down. Anyway, no underwear. None.

A three car fender bender occurred on my side of the road at that time, from people rubber necking at her.

I think if we live long enough, we will see it all. Oh, and I'm thankful I was already stopped. I got the full monty with no consequences.

2:14 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

The Canadian commenter had something above though:

I think driving is a cultural thing. Like letting your kids pla outside. Some areas do it well, others don't.

Maybe Helen could recommend/write a book: Dangerous Driving and how I survived

Lol. Sorry, but that's a cultural worry I just don't have here. Maybe you could find less congested places have less angry drivers? Maybe it's an angry Republican thing?

2:15 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Mary,

Thanks for your concern over my driving, but if you note the post, it was not three times in one day (that would be a bit much) but rather three times in a week since the holiday shopping started. I think people are distracted and there is a lot of traffic in my area, more than usual and I think this is adding to people's frustration. I don't think it's an "angry Republican thing." Take a look at the video I linked--the woman with the bumper sticker, "War is not the answer" is right in there giving as good as she gets. I think some people are just prone to acting out in fits of road rage due to personal problems, free floating hostility, and a feeling of invisibility due to being surrounded and protected by their car. This gives them the freedom to act out in ways that they normally would not face-to-face.

2:23 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

I had a black man in a Jeep scream at me and try to jump out of his still moving vehicle and onto my hood because he was using the shoulder as his personal driveway when I had to use it to go around a wreck in the right-hand lane. What was I thinking?

Can't tell you what you were thinking. But I'm betting dollars to donuts that you cut the guy in the Jeep off.

You weren't expecting anyone (else) to be passing on the shoulder, and chances are you cut him off thinking you had that right.

People probably get damned angry when your actions cause them stop up quickly -- you have to learn to check before you change lanes, and to merge carefully considering SPEED OF TRAFFIC. Sadly, those numbers on the signs don't mean much anymore. LIke illegal immigration, when there's no enforcement it's like having no rules at all.

So yeah, check the speed of other drivers and be considerate before mergins/cutting them off, etc. Even if they're speeding, because if you're on congested roads, fitting in with the other vehciles without causing them to stomp on their brakes is most important than pretening you're a traffic cop.

Btw, why did you specify the Jeep driver was black? Maybe some subconscious anger bubbling to the surface there -- did you see his color before you swerved to get ahead of him on the shoulder? Could he have been a First Responder using the shoulder to respond, angry at you for pulling out presumably without looking and slowing him down?

Again, I find it hard to believe that so many Americans are so sick as to randomly target innocent drivers. Chances are, you're doing something that endangers others to provoke that rage in them, probably by pulling a silly stunt that endangers their lives.

Think about it? And then, drive better tomorrow? Bet you see less random fingers then.

2:28 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

Helen:

Thanks for your response.

I wrote the above before reading your bit: we agree. There's something more going on in the heads of those involved than just driving.

Have you taken a defensive driving course? If it gets so bad in your community come holiday time, maybe you could brush up on your defensive driving skills?

I know your in Tennessee, and somebody above wrote about Memphis drivers, but the 3 times in a week qualification still seems a bit odd to me. 3 times you were just minding your business, driving defensively with no distractions in your own head, and 3 times, for no reason at all, the other vehicles expressed random rage at you for nothing that you did to them on the road?

Sorry, even where you're at, even if it's a week not a day, 3 times you were randomly targeted like this? And it's not what you drive, or any stickers or marks on the car?

Hmm.... take that defensive driving class and then tell me if people just start randomly leaving you alone on the road. I know you've got that victim mindset, but I still suspect there's something you're leaving out in those 3 scenarios. Maybe you just don't see it yet, which is all the more reason to sharpen your skills or stay off the roads during peak times.

2:34 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Mary,

I see you are out in full force today, on mine and Althouse's blog. Why all the insults? Frankly, on your blog, you sound a bit nuts.

2:48 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4:23 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Stormbringer said...

Mary reminds me of my ex (also named Mary -- zat you?). It must be exhausting to be so much smarter than everyone else. You've got everything figured out. I admire you. Really.

4:41 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4:43 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

4:50 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Stormbringer said...

No, I'm not your ex. Mary is a quite common name in many circles still.

I had no idea.

It's not normal in America to get flipped off thrice in road rage incidents. And then to ask people here publically what they think.

OK... I must come to the conclusion that you are a nutcase. Thank you for playing. Next contestant, please!

5:03 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger JohnAnnArbor said...

I don't suspect you'd like my blog much, because I am quite critical of Israel. You're Jewish, no?

Mary, make sure you keep an eye out for those Jews! I mean, since we all know that there can't be any arguments on Israel, for or against, that aren't somehow based on Jewishness. /sarc

5:33 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

6:09 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

7:27 PM, November 25, 2007  
Blogger Chris said...

That video: It's from Malcolm in the Middle - a fantastic show.

12:29 AM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Chris,

I thought it was from Malcolm in the Middle, but the video said it was from a movie? I haven't seen that particular segment in Malcolm in the Middle but I watch that show often--it's hilarious.

6:20 AM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Roads are getting more and more congested, and even if the government wanted to build bigger wider roads and more of them it would be impossible without mowing down lots of real estate in the process. Consequently we have more gridlock and more angry drivers. Being a good driver and abiding by the rules of the road isn't enough these days. I find myself creating new ways that go above and beyond driving laws to avoid accidents. Getting angry at other drivers doesn't do anyone any good no matter what they do. They could be confused, disoriented or have just dropped a slurpee in their lap.

7:06 AM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Charlie on the PA Turnpike said...

At the outset, I am glad to see no one has used the old stand-by of blaming a cell phone for the conduct of drivers. I've used a cell in my car for about 10 years now, and never had a problem: cell phones don't make bad drivers; bad drivers make bad drivers.

Regarding those who flip you off: what I find more annoying are the people who cut you off (or other rude traffic behavior) and then wave.

It is as if Hey, that guy cut me off and I nearly hit the bridge abutment! But he waved, so I guess it's ok.

7:27 AM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Old RPM Daddy said...

While driving south on the Jersey Turnpike Saturday night I saw numerous road signs telling us to "report suspicious behavior." I wondered if by that they meant someone actually using a turn signal?

Seriously, even in Northern Virginia I haven't had too many problems with road rage, although I've dodged my fair share of idiots and avoided plenty of lane surfers (believe me, changing lanes repeatedly in a traffic jam is futile). On the other hand, I don't usually honk my horn unless it's to warn somebody of imminent danger. In my younger years I was a little shorter-tempered, though. I wonder if not reacting angrily to other drivers' stupidity would do a lot to diffuse tempers on the road?

11:03 AM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Friend of USA said...

I disagree with the idea that we should not do anything about dangerous/stupid drivers.

Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.

If an imbecile comes close to killing me or crippling me for life with a 4000 pound vehicle I have every right to honk at him/her.

Ignoring bad behavior does not make it go away.

When there is no consequence to bad behavior, the bad behavior only goes on or gets worse.

1:15 PM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Friend of USA said...

Fliping the bird is impolite and agressive, so is yelling but honking is not impolite or agressive it is simply calling attention and self preservation.

It is simply the equivalent of saying

" you are not allowed to do that!"

or

" I'm here! did you not see me ? "

And if I am standing in line at the bank and a person cuts in, should I ignore it too?
because doing anything about it would only make the situation worse?

And if they step on my feet, should I ignore that too?
Just keep my mouth shut to avoid making the situation worse?

If you want to be quiet still little lambs and hope the big bad wolf eats someone else then do it.

I am not a little lamb.

1:33 PM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

One driver with some real Christmas spirit--with a tree in the back of his truck for goodness sakes--ran a stop sign, almost hit us and had the gall to flip us a bird.

I laughed at this description. I imagine he had the materialist part down pat.

Speaking of road rage, here is a pretty funny video from a movie of two women drivers who duke it out in a parking lot

I found a website that said it is during season 6.

There was one time when I pulled out too soon, but then I stopped and luckily the on-coming car was paying better attention than me! Now for courteous driving. I think I've only driven in Utah, but in other states do people wave at each other for allowing them to get into the lane?

Mary - welcome back. Did you have a good Thanksgiving dinner?

Helen - Maybe you should put some good conservative/libertarian stickers on your car and then you can blame the liberals! :)

I think it's ironic that Mary blames someone for pointing out that a man was black, but then basically says the reason her and Helen don't get along is because Helen is Jewish.

5:08 PM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

And if I am standing in line at the bank and a person cuts in, should I ignore it too?
because doing anything about it would only make the situation worse?

And if they step on my feet, should I ignore that too?
Just keep my mouth shut to avoid making the situation worse?

If you want to be quiet still little lambs and hope the big bad wolf eats someone else then do it.

I am not a little lamb.


I'm guessing you drive a truck. Or an SUV? Not that there's anything wrong with that...

11:52 PM, November 26, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

I think it's ironic that Mary blames someone for pointing out that a man was black, but then basically says the reason her and Helen don't get along is because Helen is Jewish.

Well, I'm guessing that's the topic she found so "nuts" on my blog. If she's Jewish and a homeland supporter, she might not have appreciated my posts on Israel. But tell me for real, why was it was relevant to the story that the other driver was black?


Unless it was the song lyrics she found "nuts"? Not all that much older than me, but maybe the lyrics are unfamiliar.


Thanks for asking -- decent dinner, small meal home cooked by me. No deer hunting for me this year. (btw: have we met? Oh and not to be rude: how was your dinner?)

I don't know helen. How do I not "get along"? I'm just a critical reader. :-)

12:01 AM, November 27, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

Mary, I just thought you were here to cause trouble so I decided to be nice. We don't know each other and probably live 2,000 miles apart. I did have a good dinner. My mother cooked and my sister's family was there. Although deer hunting is common in my family, I don't think I've ever had deer for Thanksgiving.

12:17 PM, November 27, 2007  
Blogger Friend of USA said...

Mary,

I drive a very small car,

a 2003 Kia Rio

In thess comment boxes I may seem very assertive or even agressive but in reality I am actually a shy and polite man, and I am very courteous on the road you would be surprised if you saw me in person.

that does not mean I will let people step all over me either on the road or anywhere else.

12:43 PM, November 27, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

Be careful friend of usa.

This attitude "that does not mean I will let people step all over me either on the road or anywhere else" in a smaller vehicle... they won't step all over you, but a bigger vehicle containing a driver with a similar attitude: they might smash right into you and then the bigger vehicle will win that one.

Better to practice defensive driving?, particularly if you're not riding in a heavier car or truck, up higher and better protected in 2 (or multiple) vehicle collisions? Somebody with that same attitude might just roll right over you someday... Take care.

12:49 PM, November 27, 2007  
Blogger Mary said...

serket:
Most people who hunt during Thanksgiving week don't eat venison but turkey for Thanksgiving.

It takes a while to process the meat.

12:57 PM, November 27, 2007  
Blogger Joe said...

Look on the bright side--the other drivers actually noticed you. When I drove in Israel, that wasn't the case.

3:39 PM, November 27, 2007  
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