Monday, July 16, 2007

Is Too Much Girl Talk too Much of a Good Thing?

Did you ever wonder why your teen-aged daughter seemed even more morose and upset after a long chat with her girlfriends? Well, this study may provide the answer, she could be co-ruminating:

Dan Collins at Protein Wisdom emailed me this very interesting study that found that girls who complain about their problems were at greater risk of developing anxiety and depression:

A researcher at the University of Missouri-Columbia has found that girls who talk very extensively about their problems with friends are likely to become more anxious and depressed.

The research was conducted by Amanda Rose, associate professor of psychological sciences in the College of Arts and Science. The six-month study, which included boys and girls, examined the effects of co-rumination – excessively talking with friends about problems and concerns. Rose discovered that girls co-ruminate more than boys, especially in adolescence, and that girls who co-ruminated the most in the fall of the school year were most likely to be more depressed and anxious by the spring....

“For years, we have encouraged kids to find friends who they can talk to about their problems, and with whom they can give and receive social support,” Rose said. “In general, talking about problems and getting social support is linked with being healthy. What’s intriguing about these findings is that co-rumination likely represents too much of a good thing. Some kids, especially girls, are taking talking about problems to an extreme. When that happens, the balance tips, and talking about problems with friends can become emotionally unhealthy.”

Rose said adolescents should be encouraged to talk about their problems, but only in moderation and without co-ruminating.


I wonder if this over-talking and resulting anxiety and depression extends to adult women?

Update: John Ford at the California Medicine Man weighs in on the study.

79 Comments:

Blogger Troy said...

Helen,

It seems almost self-evident that if one spends an inordinate amount of time dealing/talking/[fill in verb here] with or about oneself that they would be unhappy. True living (or almost) always seems to involve interaction with others or nature.... In my 38 years the happiest (in the Jeffersonian sense; Aristotelian "good"/ Christian "Joyful") folks are those who expend -- healthily -- for others. I believe in balance -- even Jesus took breaks -- but He didn't wallow and discuss Himself and his problems, etc.

The male stereotpye is the opposite. No outlet and you'll explode in a rage or a stroke or whatever. Once again science confirms that water is wet and sky is blue!

4:52 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

If the relationship is all about sharing misery and little else, maybe you get Harris & Klebold...

4:54 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Constantly thinking about yourself (talking about yourself and your problems) is probably not the gateway to happiness.

4:57 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger SGT Ted said...

My wife and I call it wallowing. Counter productive.

5:19 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Judging by some of my coworkers: Yeah. Extends to adults just fine.

5:24 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doesn't it make more sense the other way around? People who are depressed talk about their problems a lot, while happy well-adjusted people do other stuff. When I am down about something, I always "co-ruminate" with a few friends about it. However, since my life is pretty good 99% of the time, and even the other 1% isn't that bad, I don't need to do a whole lot of "co-ruminating".

6:14 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

What does co-ruminating mean, anyway?

6:24 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

Oh. Never mind. Read before commenting, thank you very much.

6:29 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger Bruce Hayden said...

I think that you have to be careful here of possibly mistaking corrrelation with causation. As Anonymous suggested, the problem may be that depressed people talk more about their problems than non-depressed people. So, finding that they do may just mean that they are more depressed, and not that the excess talking caused it (but possibly the opposite, that the depression caused the talking).

6:46 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger P. Rich said...

"I wonder if this over-talking and resulting anxiety and depression extends to adult women?"

Sure, especially if they are over 30 and divorced. Early I suspect it's angst. In the middle its all about clothes and guys and sex. Later, though, it's unresolved anger at the ex Prince Charming(s).

6:50 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous Graham said...

Why do folks get so hung up about homosexual unions. I've had a couple ex-girlfriends who I really, really wish had found their inner lesbians while we were dating--I'd just plain run out of ideas for making them go away...

7:50 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous Graham said...

Ooops, wrong thread.

On the subject of angst, though. I eventually found that if I behaved like Morrissey for long enough I could inspire enough anxiety and depression that changing the sexual orientation of my wish-you-weren't-here ex-gfs was no longer necessary.

I hate it when I blow the punch line.

7:53 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

The results of the study are absolutely correct. Listening to someone blather and yammer and chatter about their pathetic personal problems makes me depressed.

8:05 PM, July 16, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

About half of the mothers of girls (and a couple of fathers) on my daughter's basketball constantly complain, gripe, etc. about practically everything, coaching, playing time for their daughter, favoritism, etc. While the complaints may have a grain of truth, these are some of the most miserable people I know. It's as if they don't want to be happy.

I see similar things at work, etc. Yes, I believe it is true for adults also.

8:36 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous jedwards said...

This concept of "co-rumination" sure is vague . What is "excessive talking..."--- how is "excessive" operationalized in a quantative way ?
And what does the concept mean if girls who are high in it are anxious and depressed ( how much?), while boys equally high in co-rumination, aren't anxious and depressed. Why doesn't "excessive talking... " among boys "cause" increased anxiety and depression. It sounds like its not the 'talking " per se, but that girls and boys are talking about different things and in a different way. So "co-rumination" needs a lot of work, at least from this questionaiire review.

There is a point I think, but this research doesn't establish it. Females typically like to deal with problems and concerns by finding an attentive ear and expressing their emotions and want emotional validation for how they feel. Talking "excessively" to other women , who share their strengths and orientation can be counterproductive, as the repetition could just emphasize the problems, without resolution. On the other hand, men tend to take a "problem-solving approach" to problems and concerns, offer solutions, cut off continued talk, and then do things together. Men talking only to other men typically minimize the emotional aspect of the problems for fear of looking weak and may not feel like their emotional life has been heard.
My own experience is that women are great to talk to when you want empathy and understanding, but prolonged conversations can really bring you down. Men don't offer enough emotional support but do offer solutions, cut off continued talk, and suggest doing something together-- which, is very helpful in depression .

If you can find a person who has both masculine and feminine strengths, you've hit the jackpot-- otherwise ,it is best to talk to friends of both genders about problems and concerns and get the best of both worlds-- feeling heard emotionally but moving forward with some practical ideas and getting out and doing things.

10:28 PM, July 16, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone once told me there is no problem so bad that complaining about it won't make it worse.

And he was right.

12:46 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger victor said...

when i am depressed, i go for a walk. i get out of the area, change my mind set by looking at the beauties of nature, i dont like to moan to other people.

i go into the garden and play with my herb garden, re pot them, or i walk and find new plants. Sometimes i listen to music while gardening or walking.

4:17 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger James said...

Can't...help it....

"Aw shut yer yap woman, studies prove you need to shaddap!"

This is the best study to ever hit men wearing stained wife-beaters.

4:34 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

So, another study shows the obvious.

Talk too much about a problem and the problem's emotional significance gets bigger: That's basic rumination and a problem of its own.

I'd say, yes, adult women do it to. Probably to a lesser extent than teens, but certainly a lot more than Joe Average.

To get a better society, we should have women spending less time hashing out their problems and men spending more. We should have men offering more emotional support and women more solutions.

In other words, let's meet in the middle.

4:54 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous KY Person said...

I'm with Victor. When I feel depressed, I head out to the nearest lake or woods and walk. Being in the presence of such beauty makes me realize that my problems are transient.

I might talk to a priest, or maybe one of my sisters, but I don't yammer for hours and pick at my wounds obsessively. I do want them to heal.

6:03 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Graham said...

Helen,

Are you thinking that too much un-productive "relating" might be a little like those cognitive-behavioral experiments they used to do where you take a foam padded quarterstaff and beat a gym mat to reduce aggression. Like you're reinforcing negative emotions in a sorta Pavlonian way instead of purging them??

8:36 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Graham,

That's a good analogy. But the research shows that beating the foam mat does little to reduce aggression and at times, makes it worse.

I think that girls who co-ruminate tend to get into a relationship that says in order to relate, you must emote in a problem-like state in order to keep the friendship. The friend feels needed and perhaps on some level encourages the bad feeling and that leads to feeling better about the friendship but worse and more depressed about your problems. However, since friendship is important to girls, it may be more important to keep the friendship than be less depressed about their problems.

9:15 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

I'm a member of an Al-anon group, and while it most certainly does help some people, I've noticed that for others (particularly over a long stretch of time), it becomes a place to whine about every problem that's going on in people's lives. This is mutually reinforced by everyone in the group, and is somewhat encouraged by the fact that it's not allowed (for good reason, admittedly) to offer advice to members on how to solve their problems. Many of these people remain in abusive relationships, and fail to find employment after they leave -- and seem to view all of this as inevitable.

So yes. I can believe that "co-rumination" can be unhealthy when taken to an extreme.

9:44 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Good thread and posts. I appreciate the term co-rumination. Can't wait to use that one.

Trey

9:50 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Shannon said...

I probably shouldn't say this to a therapist, but I wonder if various forms of talk therapy, especially techniques such as group therapy have the same effect as corumination?

Getting people to talk about things they have spoken about is probably useful but it seems to me that most therapy seems to be about going over the same ground over and over again.

10:05 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Shannon,

I was actually thinking the same thing as I read the study regarding therapies like psychoanalysis. I do think that cognitive behavioral therapies are better in that they look at changing one's perceptions and views rather than just talking and focusing more on rumination.

10:25 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Dan said...

People always say that you should talk about your problems - that talking about it will make you feel better. Is there any proof of this? Any legitimate peer reviewed study that supports this? Is it true of all people or just some people?

I find the thought of discussing my problems with others very distasteful. I would do so only if I needed help in solving the problem and I thought the the person I was talking to could help – not because I think it would make me feel better.

But maybe that’s just a guy thing.

10:29 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous D. Reid said...

Many depressed people find themselves in an endless loop of worrying about problems in their lives for which there is not apparent solution. They just dig themselves deeper and deeper into their rut.
Women tend to offer support rather than concrete solutions to their fellow female friends with life problems.
The result is that even "non depressed" women find themselves in a rut that gets deeper because concrete solutions are not offered.

10:37 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If you talk about negative things you are just going to reenforce the negetives and relive the negative emotions. This applies to guys and girls.

A coworker and I used to rant and rave during smoke breaks. Felt better at the time to unleash the angst and anger and whatever but in the long run it probably made the actual job that much worse.

10:59 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

CBT-based was a surprise to me. I was expecting the kind of "therapy" you see and read about all the time - endless talking about hangups, emotions, dreams, and trying to uncover the unconscious origins of my problems. Instead, the therapist focused on how to change counterproductive beliefs about specific issues. Practical solutions that I could try for myself, rather than wrestling with mysterious forces over which I had no control.

11:10 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger TucsonTarheel said...

The result is that even "non depressed" women find themselves in a rut that gets deeper because concrete solutions are not offered.

But that would defeat the whole purpose of these co-rumination fests. Most women, in my experience, engage in them because they want absolution, not solutions.

11:39 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Eric said...

Reminds me of that movie, "Heavenly Creatures."

11:42 AM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I had to stop a friendship because the other person was always so negative and if she wasn't complaining / whining she didn't have anything to talk about. It only brought me down to be with her.

And, as a diagnosed bipolar, I hate counseling...it does NOT help me to talk about how depressed or high I feel. I have to fight through the lows and enjoy the highs. :) If I focus on the suffocating lows or anxiety those times inevitably lengthen and start to take over my life.

My mom keeps telling me that I need to go to counseling... no thanks. I don't think talking to a stranger about my issues is going to help.

11:44 AM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Derek said...

Before dismissing an article for mistaking correlation for causation, it's important to look at the actual analysis.

While there was a correlation in the data, the point being discussed here was found through a regression analysis looking at the predictive nature of co-rumination on later depression. That is, co-rumination was found to be a statistically significant antecedent to later depression.

But it's also important to look at how much of the later depression is predicted by which variables in the equation. Depression at "time 1" explained about 45% of the variance in the "time 2" data - for both boys and girls. Adding co-rumination to the regression equation explained an additional 1.3% of the variance - but only for girls.

That is, "time 1" co-rumination was a statistically significant predictor of later depression, but didn't explain all that much.

12:07 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

derek: Oh, sure - try to confuse everybody by knowing what you're talking about... ;-)

12:18 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Derek said...

bugs: I don't just pretend to have a Ph.D. on the Internet. I almost have one in real life, too. ;)

12:30 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger BobH said...

Deborah Tannen, in her book You Just Don't Understand quoted a teenage girl who preferred being around boys more than girls. The reason she gave was that girls tended to talk and talk about their problems without actually trying to fix them. Boys, however, talked about a problem until somebody came up with a solution or a reason why it couldn't be solved, then they moved on to something else.

I think Tannen called the female behavior "troubles talking" and thought of it as largely a female bonding exercise.

As for me, talking about mmy "serious" problems has always been nervewracking for me. Going for a run or taking the dog for a fast walk has almost always helps with my mood at those times.

12:42 PM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I suppose "co-rumination" is sort of what I always used to think of as "co-dependency", although it must only be a part of the latter term. But having had a friend for many years who tended to focus on the negative aspect of all things in life, I too think that in the end she reinforced the negative in her life by always talking negatively. It wasn't much to build a friendship on and we have lost touch with each other.

I have to say I am better off not being around negativity and I'm working on building positive relationships.

Nathan

12:43 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger M. Simon said...

If you want to keep up with this sort of thing go here:

Spare the Girl Talk and sign up for their alerts. There are about 5 or 6 a day. Very informative.

1:11 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger M. Simon said...

Do not identify, do not consider, do not tell lies, do not express negative emotions.

Still good advice.

1:12 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger M. Simon said...

It's as if they don't want to be happy.

You can show some people how to be happy and it won't make any difference.

Take my wife, please.

1:18 PM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous carol said...

When I was in my 20s and 30s I noticed that certain other women of my age always wanted to talk, with an opening gambit that I looked "depressed" and would try to draw me out. By that age though I didn't find the "depressed" judgment very flattering. So I gravitated more towards people who liked to do things and have fun.

I think there is a lot of competition and self-reassurance going on there--your life is worse than mine sort of thing. An unsuspecting younger girl might not realize that her "friend" is not all that interested in seeing her happy.

1:43 PM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I've read a few posts on this site and despite the objective goal it appears to have of breaking down gender normatives regarding girls and boys and being boy-positive, again and again I find that negative (or seemingly positive but actually negative) stereotypes about the sexes are constantly re-enforced.

Here the stereotype is girls talk (and talk and talk) and boys, well, do. Action vs. inaction, with the former viewed as more positive by many of the commenters here. And I feel as if I should say loudly...BULL, complete and utter bull.

Yes women talk. So do men. In fact, there is only a 500 word average between the two. And as far as problems go, girls/women don't simply just talk (and talk and talk) while never arriving at solutions, and boys/men don't simply grunt a few syllables at each other and reach a conclusion. Contained in all the conversation going on between girls/women, at least in my humble experience, was advice, ya know...and solutions to problems and dilemmas of the day.

I've had the experience before where a friend wouldn't stop bitching about a boyfriend she wanted to get rid of but couldn't seem to bring herself to do it. At some point we all collectively yelled at her to shut up and just break up with him already. Many times I have been depressed and called a friend about it, who often suggested ways to make myself feel better, along with friendly reminders that my life really truly wasn't as bad as my depression made it seem.

I think the issue here is context-dependent. If two people are of the type to be co-miserating without solutions, then they will make themselves more depressed as the study shows. As for me, when I complain or vent to my friends, I first want a sympathetic ear, and then I want advice or solutions. I think many people feel this way, except of course people who are not interested in solutions but only their own misery, which affects both men and women.

As an aside, did the study take into account winter? SAD (seasonal affective disorder) occurs in winter and affects mostly women. Considering that the researchers were measuring depression in fall and then in spring, did it occur to them at all that the increase in depression they were seeing from fall to spring could have actually been an after effect of the very real depressing effects of winter? Or did this study take place in sunny Floridia?

3:07 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Kim du Toit said...

"I wonder if this over-talking and resulting anxiety and depression extends to adult women?"

That's a rhetorical question, surely?

3:07 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger reality2007 said...

"a teenage girl who preferred being around boys more than girls. The reason she gave was that girls tended to talk and talk about their problems without actually trying to fix them. Boys, however, talked about a problem until somebody came up with a solution or a reason why it couldn't be solved, then they moved on to something else"

Bingo! Human females are only 'reactive' while males are 'proactive.' It is the same reason why 94% of women have and never will acheive anything or contribute anything to the world of any real significance. In addition, because women have nothing better to do, they simply whine and complain constantly anyway and countless scientific studies have shown the primary reason women speak in the first place is not even necessarily to communicate, but to 'get off' on their own mindless emotional babbling.

3:08 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Todd said...

FYI - The paper to which this press release referred is available online: http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/dev4341019.pdf

3:08 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Derek said...

@Anonymous, re: gender stereotypes.

I'll also point out that the authors in the article found that co-ruminating also contributed to positive friendship quality for both boys and girls. The caveat is that co-ruminating among depressed girls appears to aggravate the situation. An important implication is found in the last sentence of the article's abstract.

...some girls at risk for developing internalizing problems may go undetected because they have seemingly supportive friendships.

3:37 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

I saw this story on one of the morning news shows. I think it also found that talking about problems is healthy for boys. Any idea why it would be different? Perhaps boys are more likely to stick to moderation.

Shannon: I probably shouldn't say this to a therapist, but I wonder if various forms of talk therapy, especially techniques such as group therapy have the same effect as co-rumination?

I went to a therapist once for a few sessions because I was feeling sad. I didn't really like it and came to the conclusion that therapy works best for people who like to talk.

5:00 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

I did group therapy - once. I thought it was a total waste of time. Admittedly, it was a service provided by the county. Half my fellow patients were wife-beating scumbags trying to avoid jail or on probation. A couple of them didn't even speak English. Not people I wanted to share my most troubling emotions with.

CBT is more useful, but still probably not for everyone.

5:16 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Troy said...

Does "talking" about people talking about their problems too much cause anxiety and depression?

5:23 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

troy - We won't know until somebody does a study.

6:00 PM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It took me a long time (probably too long) to understand that my wife was not looking for either help or solutions when she told me about her problems.
That is true about 99.9% of the time. The other 0.1% she is looking for help. Distinguishing between the two states, well I'm still working on that.

6:03 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger ricpic said...

If you're anxious it's better to try to get away from the anxiety than to wallow in it. Isn't that self-evident? It follows that immersing yourself in some activity, preferably one that you have a genuine affinity for, is the best way to minimize the anxious state. I use the term anxiety since the depressed are almost always depressed/anxious.

8:36 PM, July 17, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, it absolutely does extend to adult women, but with a caveat - the adult women that I know have the self-reflective abilities to know that over-rumination can just make one feel worse! This is why me and my fellow co-ruminators would eventually go to therapy. And in therapy we definitely felt the difference and made real improvements in our lives.

My husband on the other hand, is the typical male. He doesn't talk about his problems with his male friends and is only now starting to understand how critical it is that he get some professional help to deal with childhood trauma.

So eventhough co-ruminating can be problematic, it can lead one to get help sooner than later!

Ali

11:32 PM, July 17, 2007  
Blogger jw said...

What I've been wondering is: "What is the effect of the vastly greater number of hours of media coverage on female problems?"

Doesn't it seem that endless hours spent on female problems with a few minutes once a year for male problems is EXACTLY the same thing as happens in these teen girls? It looks like it to me. Would that not negatively effect all of the females? Would it also not negatively effect all the males (as they do not know anything about the real problems which they face)?




Anonymous 3:07 I'd say the difference is a matter of quantity. The boys (and some girls) talk about a problem and try to find a solution. The 'troubled' girls here, talk about many problems constantly, that's not seen very often in boys. I think it is partly a social problem, a problem of how some people are trained to react in society.

We probably cannot get male & females to behave identically, probably shouldn't even if we could. What we can do (and is so seldom done) is look at the problems we have in society and try to find solutions.

4:20 AM, July 18, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

I think that it is important to distinguish co-rumination from other kinds of female communication. It is a virulent subset of girl talk. Not all women engage in it, and certainly only a few are overwhelmed in it.

I wonder how it differs, if at all, from victim speak.

Trey

9:27 AM, July 18, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

tmink:

There must be some sort of biological difference when it comes to chitchat in teen girls, which parallels the earlier sexual attraction to the opposite sex, more than in boys. Girls tend to chat about everything at that age, jibber jabbering away hours on the telephone with each other. One fine result of this is the wireless telecommunication companies quickly learned that there was a goldmine to be earned among teen girls and quickly modified their product to attract that segment. I have never been under the impression that teen girls see themselves as victims but they do have a need to hash out every single thing that happens to them in the course of a day. Is this a bad thing? Probably not, girls are trying to navigate through a complex social structure of sorts with high school and the soccer team. I would assume co-rumination occurs when one or both conversers feel they have some sort of problem that they insist on discussing ad nauseum. At that age, teen girls haven't developed the set of gonads necessary to tell their coruminator, "Enough already, let's move on to another topic."

10:22 AM, July 18, 2007  
Anonymous Arcy said...

My grandmother, who is severely depressed, does nothing but ruminate. Her friends encourage it by calling 2-3 times a day for her to review her day and incidents in her life in analytical detail. The conversation is nothing but rumination and never anything positive or things that could help her solve her problems.

The times she's been on therapy have not been productive because she doesn't like her rumination being cut off in favor of advice, she resents needing therapy, and there's been no actual cognitive therapy (which she would resist). (Antidepressants don't work for her.)

And many women build friendships on this rumination and drop friends who dare to either a) question the validity of the rumination or b) start taking action to improve their lives. As a woman, I have few female friends because I am working very hard not to ruminate on problems.

I'm not sure which comes first: depression or excessively talking about problems. My observation would lead me to conclude depression. But the rumination certainly helps sustain the depression.

And this way of relating (which may be learned by teen girls from watching their mothers) could lead to a spiral for these girls.

10:22 AM, July 18, 2007  
Anonymous Toy Soldier said...

It is rather common knowledge that the more one spends focusing on a problem, the more stressed a person will become. Most psychologists are aware of this, so the results of the study are in a way redundant.

11:10 AM, July 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My husband and I fall into the typical gender stereotypes as to talking about problems.

I like to talk about problems (and good things in my life, too!) with people close to me, and I want to hear their problems and successes as well. When I talk about problems, what I am hoping for is empathy, not a solution. Empathy often means that the other person says something like, "That sounds frustrating!" or "I had a really similar experience, let me tell you about it." Giving and receiving empathy make me feel better for two reasons: (1) it is a way of bonding with the other person, and (2) it makes me feel less isolated in my problem, and also more confident about my view of whatever situation is bothering me.

I understand that "troubles talk" can be overdone and make people feel worse, but a failure to ever engage in discussion also can make someone feel worse. I think in reasonable doses with someone you trust and who is able to provide the empathy you are looking for, "troubles talk" can be a great thing.

My husband falls into the stereotypically male pattern of not really understanding the point of "troubles talk." Early in my marriage, he used to always advise some solution to whatever problem was bothering me. Then he would be hurt and upset if I didn't follow his advice. Sometimes I would be annoyed because his solution was obvious and I had already thought of it. (I would think: Does he really think I'm this stupid, I can't solve my own problems?) He didn't understand that I wasn't looking for him to give me a solution, but rather for him to care about what is going on in my life. I would also be hurt that he wasn't more forthcoming about his own problems. He didn't understand the point of talking about a problem unless you are looking for advice and I didn't understand how you can be intimate with someone if you aren't going to talk about your problems.

I still don't totally get his approach and he probably doesn't totally get mine. But we've worked it out. I start off by telling him outright whether I have figured out my solution already or whether I DO want some advice. He accepts the fact that I may choose not to take his advice. I save the troubles talk for leisurely periods like a Sunday drive, when there is less going on all at once. Meanwhile, he now talks to me about whatever is stressing him out. And I also have come to appreciate that other kinds of discussions we have also build intimacy -- like gossip (which he loves as much as I do!), general discussions about books or politics, and problem-solving (regarding issues we both face, like our finances or building a house).

A key point Deborah Tannen makes in her discussion of "troubles talk" is that neither the "male" approach nor the "female" approach is superior. They are just different. I am just as capable of solving my own problems as my husband is of solving his, but I get peace of mind and a sense of intimacy from talking about them. My husband is just as able as I am to express caring and consideration, but he does so differently than I do. We kind of meet in the middle.

I think people with both styles lose out when they dismiss the other approach with contempt. I hear a lot from men about women "gabbing" on endlessly about problems. That's contempt. Believing that men have no feelings or consideration because they don't verbalize it as much is another form of contempt. I think we tend to view the approach favored by others with contempt because we don't really understand it.

-- Margie the Feminist
-- Margie the Feminist

5:19 PM, July 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aaargh, that comment was too long. What can I say? We women are extremely verbal.

-- Margie the Feminist

5:21 PM, July 18, 2007  
Blogger Simon Kenton said...

Third time's the charm. The first two times, when either sex bitches to me about a situation, the answer is "O, ain't it awful! How could he! (She!) The third time it's "Don't bring this up again except to tell me what action you're taking."

Note the problems when a bitch session meets the EEOC. What may have started as venting becomes legalled up. I've also noticed the same thing in divorce court, where loose talk is taken as operational by the judge, who may then issue sanctions based on it. It's hard to fault this if you think words have meanings, but it can certainly be hard on people who think they're just expressing an emotional state.

8:28 PM, July 18, 2007  
Anonymous Graham said...

Helen,

When I was getting my weight-training certification one of the things we discussed was neuro-musculature construction--how, over time, the brain & body build up neural networks in response to repetitive physical activity. New lifters, for instance, generally show rapid strength gains over comparatively short periods of time because the human nervous system, when responding to new stimuli, tends to create new nerve-paths quite rapidly in response, especially if it's a stress-response.

Conversely, experienced lifters usually develop strength more slowly but we can also afford to take more time off--our systems are already hard-wired for heavy weight & getting back up to speed takes much less time because the electrician-of-our-soul has already laid down the network.

It's the same in sports & the same, I respect, with regards to human psychology (and pathology).

It's Pavlov's dog all over again.

When we experience something intensely, our body adjusts rapidly. It builds a nerve-response network to cope with the stress, be it positive or negative.

And the more powerful & more frequent the experience, the more deeply ingrained the neural network becomes, positive or negative.

As a for instance from my own experience, I recently was, well, strongly encouraged by a family member to go into PTSD therapy after I made the mistake of telling her about two times I had been raped in-patient.

It's not an experience I'd wish on anyone but frankly, I was mostly over it. I don't have any diseases as a consequence and after I got out I was able, with sanction, to, ah, discuss the matter with my assailants.

It's called a whuppin', nothing worse & frankly, I could have gotten away with a lot worse.

You could call it closure or you could say that by retaliating (rather reasonably, I think) after the act I was able to shut down the trauma circuit.

I didn't want to go into therapy because I was afraid it would just light the wires back up again. And it did.

12:28 AM, July 19, 2007  
Anonymous Graham said...

Postscript to my last comment:

The lesson here is that sometimes you need to talk about unpleasantness. Find a friend or a sympathetic stranger who understands the experience, someone who believes you and, if necessary, is willing to help you get redress or to end the source of misery.

But sitting around yakking doesn't seem to do anybody any good. It just reinforces whatever nightmare it is you want to relieve.

Asking for help to get out of a bad place or practical advice/assistance escaping the trauma.

If you can find a therapist who is willing to really get your back, someone who is willing to act as both advocate & therapist and help you find an active & effective way to help you fight your way out of the dark, by all means, go for it.

But I don't have much patience with therapists who just nod sympathetically or support groups chock-a-block with folks who want more excuses to feel more victimized.

Sometimes we are victimized and traumatized. There's no shame in that & there's no excuse for people who scoff at other people's misery & tell them "to get over it."

Sometimes we are victimized, but we don't have to like it. And if we don't have a way to walk away, the only real option left is to eliminate the source of trauma by whatever means are most efficacious.

Submerge and attack!

12:39 AM, July 19, 2007  
Blogger Juan Camilo said...

the over rumination work only when you talking about the problems, or works to when you think a lot in yours problems?

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