Monday, June 18, 2007

No Touching Allowed!

Thanks to several readers who sent me this story about the Fairfax middle school who has a new rule: "No touching allowed!"

Fairfax County middle school student Hal Beaulieu hopped up from his lunch table one day a few months ago, sat next to his girlfriend and slipped his arm around her shoulder. That landed him a trip to the school office.

Among his crimes: hugging.

All touching -- not only fighting or inappropriate touching -- is against the rules at Kilmer Middle School in Vienna. Hand-holding, handshakes and high-fives? Banned. The rule has been conveyed to students this way: "NO PHYSICAL CONTACT!!!!!"

.....It isn't as if hug police patrol the Kilmer hallways, Hernandez said. Usually an askance look from a teacher or a reminder to move along is enough to stop girls who are holding hands and giggling in a huddle or a boy who pats a buddy on the back. Students won't get busted if they high-five in class after answering a difficult math problem.

Typically, she said, only repeat offenders or those breaking other rules are reprimanded. "You have to have an absolute rule with students, and wiggle room and good judgment on behalf of the staff," Hernandez said.


This no touch rule seems wrong in so many ways, I don't know where to begin. I used to think schools were becoming like prisons, but honestly, prisoners have more rights. As one parent so aptly put it in the article, "how will you teach students right from wrong?" Indeed, how? For, if every behavior is seen in terms of black and white, how will kids learn where the boundaries are? Physical touch, along with adult guidance teaches kids where the boundaries are, no touching at all teaches them that normal expressions of behavior are aberrant--or that they have to sneak behind the backs of those in authority to get or show affection. What kind of lesson is that to teach?

Because we do not allow fighting of any kind, kids no longer know how to fight and when they become enraged, they go overboard and hurt others in ways that before were unimaginable. Kids can no longer be touched in appropriate ways so some engage in sex early as a way to get any kind of affection denied to them by society. Heck, most adults stay so far away from kids they don't know (or those they do know) for fear of being called a pervert or abuser that many kids lack for adult companionship and mentoring. So they grow up lonely. And patting a buddy on the back or a decent handshake is against the rules? Give me a break, no wonder kids are not learning manners-comradery and decency are now outlawed under the guise of "inappropriate touch." We cannot allow beuraucrats to teach our children that all human touch is bad. It isn't--even at (gasp!) school. The school should definitely reconsider the rule.

140 Comments:

Blogger Mercurior said...

so no touching, in any form, so if someone is choking to death..

you cant do anything, if someone is in danger, you cant touch them to save their life..

4:23 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous david said...

This is totally f---'ed up. I can't think of anything more stupid. Something is seriously wrong with our educational system if the rules come down to inane policies like this one.

I'm at a loss for any more words.

4:41 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Margaret said...

Why do the parents put up with it? Are they afraid of their kids' teachers or of the school principal? Why won't the people using the schools stand up and speak out against such stupidity? This is just another reason - among so many - I am glad I'm homeschooling my children.

5:00 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous CaptDMO said...

In a galaxy far far away there was a college called Antioch.......(sp?)

5:06 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

What is to become of contact sports?

5:23 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Zero tolerance policies are for (and made by) Zeroes.

5:35 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger David said...

I'm with Margaret. Why do parents--why do *citizens*--put up will all this endless nonsense? Do people really believe that "educators" possess some esoteric knowledge that trumps common sense? Do they not know what's going on? Do they not care? Are there actually large numbers of people who *agree* with this kind of idiocy?

5:35 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Joe said...

One thing I've learned as a parent dealing with school boards is that most have become extremely adept at maintaining power. Penetrating their veil of bureaucracy is extremely difficult.

Federal programs have strengthened this bureaucracy. In some cases it simply ties their hands, in others they make it appear their hands are tied. States have also strengthened the power of school boards, partly by moving some of their previous authority to the state level (quite deliberately, in my experience, and often in response to direct challenges to their authority.) School boards have also created co-beneficial partnerships with the teacher's unions, both directly and through state school boards.

(Getting the federal government out of the school business would be a major first step in fixing this nonsense. Breaking up the teacher's unions and getting rid of tenure would be the next major step.)

5:51 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

They put up with it, David, because they have no practical alternatives. They are taxed to support a public school system. They are required to send their children to school and then remain mostly ignorant of the idiocy that goes on there.

If they wish to protect their children from the idiocy, they must scrape up thousands of dollars in tuition, accept the loss of more thousands of dollars going into the public system from which they receive no benefit, and hope that the private school is better (since there are likely only a few alternatives within acceptable driving distance).

Even home schoolers face huge barriers in the form of hostile government agents who demand that parents receive permission to teach their kids. Never mind the time investment in doing so.

Is it right, or sane, that the system should work this way? No. NO.

But the situation cannot change until the government stranglehold on education is removed.

5:59 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

"And in a culturally diverse school, officials say, families might have different views of what is appropriate."

There is the crux of it. A PC idiot abstracting the worst and then enacting to avoid it. The Uberlibs don't really want cultural diversity, else they'd be teaching kids about various levels and how to discerne them. They want no culture so all the little different kids get along, because they aren't doing anything.

Less work.

6:34 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

My guess is that the school is protecting itself from zealous dollar-minded parents, who jump whole hog into a lawsuit against the school the minute their precious darling is touched by someone they don't want touch them. Sexual harassment, physical harassment, assault, it all could be interpreted any which way by an enthusiastic lawyer. Expect to see more "no touching" policies in other school districts.

6:38 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Here's a problem with public schools that no one seems to want to touch on or look at:

At the (public, state) university I went to, the stupidest people BY FAR, WITHOUT ANY DOUBT, were majoring in elementary education. I mean to the point where I couldn't believe what some of them said sometimes. I'm not sure if the ones majoring in secondary education were all that far ahead of the elementary education people.

But when those people get out into the work world, even the "cream" of that crop is siphoned off to private schools. The next third goes to suburban public schools and the bottom third goes to inner-city schools. I honestly wonder if the teachers in the last group can even read very well.

6:50 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Cham said...

Anonymous 6:50:

The school system discussed in the article is in Fairfax, VA which is supposed to have a great public school system.

7:57 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

It's hard when things like this occur, which seem to be increasing at an increasing rate, to not fly off the handle (for me).

My sister teaches in the Fairfax County School System. Over the years she has leaned so far to the left I can't speak with her about many things. AS my only lib sibling, she looks down her nose at the rest of use (four brothers). We used to laugh at her , but it isn't funny any more.

Personally, I see the left hiring and / or appointing as many liberal types in bureaucratic positions as possible. In for life jobs. It has been going on for decades.

Bush's appointee fires 8 lawyers and they try to hang him. Clinton fired 93, and basically, no one said a word.

Collectively, non libs can come up with a million similar things. Local, state, federal. It is easy to be branded a paranoid or an alarmist, but I see a pattern. And to my way of thinking, it doesn't look good for personal freedom down the road. The trouble with things now, is there is no new world left on this planet to go to.

8:12 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Schools are very much like prisons. Paul Graham goes into it in his essay "Why Nerds are Unpopular". It's an interesting read, and can be found easily by web-search.

8:13 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Margaret said...

So I guess the public school system did a great job with the current crop of parents, teaching them not to question the experts or otherwise rock the boat, and that there are no viable alternatives to public education, unless you want to spend huge $ on private school or spend (gasp) way too much time with your kids.

Imagine how far they can go with the kids currently under their thumbs.

8:45 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous D said...

I just find the knee jerk instead of making an ACTUAL decision is so prevalent that people are starting to lose their will to decide. It's easier to show kids a rulebook, then to teach them how to decide what is right. BUT on the flip side of the coin is a boatload of parents who will go to the edge of every rule, and tell their kids HOW to go to the edge of every rule, that school admins. feel they have to lay everything out in B+W.

It's lose/lose. I've seen the inside of several principal's offices. I went there when I made a mistake. If I was lucky I learned from that mistake. When I got home, what I was told was how much ADDITIONAL punishment I had, beyiond what the school levied. I was not told that the school 'had no right to tell Jonny to be good!'

It's a two way street, and if a schools administration screws up, you gotta call them on it. You must also be fair, so they don't make rules that are put foreward by the vocal few.

To do that you have to get involved, because silence is agreement.

D

9:07 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen, I know you and Glen are big firefly fans, but I cannot help read this story and think about the central plot point at the resolution of the movie Serenity.

It seems in real life that the intelligentsia in trying to keep humans from being human. These are the kind of deluded fools who could do something like non consensual drugging of an entire population to try and achieve a heightened state of passivity.

For shame!

9:14 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Spring said...

Meh. Reminds me of the society in Demolition Man where touching was taboo (and all restaraunts are Taco Bell).

That movie is becoming more and more like real life and *that* is disturbing enough.

9:34 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

I got a call from the camp my daughter goes to. She is a peer counselor at a camp for kids with autistic and apserger's disorder. They called to say there had been an "incident" and she had been hit.

I was thinking that she had taken her first punch, and was eager to help her learn from it. I mainly wanted her to learn that taking a punch is not so bad, it hurts, then you feel better. No big deal.

Sadly, she was more shoved than punched. I shared my let down with her, then of course had to explain it. An opportunity missed, but surely she will get hit and learn that it is not that big a deal at a later date.

Unless her school adopts some stupid no touching policy that is.

Trey

9:34 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger pst314 said...

"Why won't the people using the schools stand up and speak out against such stupidity?"

Sadly, the majority opinion in the education establishment is that parents should sit down, shut up, and accept whatever the "experts" decide is best for them and their children.

9:53 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Bill said...

I'll just claim my kid is Muslim and they'll let him do anything he wants.

9:53 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger David said...

anon 9:14pm..."It seems in real life that the intelligentsia in trying to keep humans from being human." I think there is considerable truth to that, although "the intelligentsia" is too broad--there are plenty of professors, writers, etc who are not of that ilk. But an awful lot of them are.

In C S Lewis' novel "That Hideous Strength," the protagonist is captured by a sinister cabal and put through a process of training aimed at killing "all specifically human reactions" in a person. It strikes me that much higher education today--especially education in the humanities--has, whether intentionally or not, that kind of effect. See my post An Incident at the Movies for more on this.

9:54 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is not about public schools. This is about where society is heading. Look at Great Britain. They are putting cameras on the dumpsters now to make sure people don’t put out their trash at the wrong time. That is the same mentality that is behind the “no touching” rule.

The reason that people are so accepting of stupid rules like this is because it sounds fine to them. Public schools are not the problem here. The schools are just a reflection of what is going on in society. Yes, there are little petty tyrants in charge of some public schools… kind of like there are in business and other government agencies. It is everywhere we look, and we are the ones responsible for it.

I am so glad that I teach in a school where we are allowed to use our common sense.

Bert

9:57 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I continue to read and hear comments indicating that these types of restrictions are expected, because parents could SUE otherwise. I have realized, over the years, that this is a weak argument, propagated, I suspect, by the EduInstitution and eventually accepted as a standard by society. It is not a logical argument. Teachers notoriously send and receive computer viruses, but they still have workstations. Teachers have had sex with students, but we still have males teaching females and vice versa. If one accepts that students rights should be violated - JUST in case something bad could happen, then what is next - do you let the police search your home *just in case* you have illegal weapons?

10:07 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Orion said...

My school doesn't have that sort of a rule, but the fear of having a touch misunderstood means that I go WELL out of my way to avoid ANY touch.

I don't pat my students on the back, shake their hand, high-five, or god-forbid, hug. I've had several students seem very hurt when I avoided or refused a hug - I had to explain why, and that no matter how innocent they meant it to be, someone else might interpret it differently.

It's ridiculous.

Orion

10:14 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This is my first post here, may be my last. But I'm tired of talking and tolerating these sorts of people.

The ones that have decided to inject themselves into our lives with all their rules. It is time for them to treated to a trip behind the woodshed, and that a few don't come back.

It's for the children, don't you know!

10:15 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Impacted Wisdom Truth said...

In the mid 1980s I attended a Fundamentalist Bible College, one I will not name. There were numerous rules about no touching between the sexes, among many, many other rules.

It is both sad and deliciously ironic to see so many "tolerant" and perhaps even "liberal" educational officials morph into Fundamentalists.

10:17 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Affe said...

The main argument against homeschooling used to be that it didn't allow proper socialization of a child... here it seems certain public schools have taken a big step in that direction...

Sad.

10:23 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Northernal said...

I always thought that Isaac Asimov's Solarians were fictional. Apparently they are not.

11:01 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous FC said...

Note the selective enforcement. Touching is accepted at teachers' whims.

This is no way to raise Americans.

11:06 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Man, I bet games of tag at that school are real boring.

11:22 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

Other than at dances, when we hung all over each other in vague time to the music, I don't recall that there was male - female touching at all when I was in Jr. High 1965-67. Same-sex touching was pretty rare also, except in sports huddles or fights.

Admittedly, New Hampshire was and is a pretty non-touchy place, but it seems that there has been some major cultural change with regard to touch if it's common in MS. My fourth son just graduated from high school, so perhaps I am confusing grades, but I think that touching in school did not start to become common until 10th or 11th grade.

I am going to guess that the generations before mine had even less school touching than that.

11:26 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger James said...

Unbelievable, yet deliciously ironic. The schools have deserted a core curriculum over the decades to become ever more "touchy-feely," but they won't let the kids touch at all!

Oh, no - wait, it's Fairfax, Virginia? Bee-yoo-tee-ful! The infection which is DC has turned some of the most beautiful and valuable country outside the beltway into a useless, gelatinous mess.

How many Northern Virginians does it take to change a light bulb?

12 - because six couples is the perfect dinner party - and they all stand around sipping white wine and eating brie cheese while crying that Richmond just doesn't understand the peculiar and unique problems of changing light bulbs in Northern Virginia (while an electrician from Silver Springs, MD, actually changes the bulb).

11:32 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous anony-mouse said...

This is not about public schools. This is about where society is heading.

Bingo. There's a lot of one-sided bashing going on in this thread, much of which is probably resulting in sore knees and damaged computer desks. Okay, maybe there are some stupid educators involved in this decision, I don't know. But what I also don't know is what kind of incidents may have preceded the creation of this policy.

Children live in a society where they are bombarded by images of sensuality and violence, and where parents have increasingly abdicated their repsonsibility to screen content. They then go to school, perfectly convinced that it's okay to dress like middle-class French prostitutes (or worse) and to use sexual and violent contact during peer interaction...and what tools does the school have to sort the wheat incidents from the chaff, and to respond appropriately?

On one hand, you have the usual he-said-she-said from the students coupled with hyper-reactive parents ("my little [name or nominal term of endearment] would never [do that/lie about someone else doing it], how dare you try to [x...]!"), and on the other, there are potential civil and criminal recriminations for undertaking any actually effective forms of punishment.

The administration is basically handcuffed between a rock and a hard place by the general direction and decisions of a society that is using Roman law techniques to destroy what remains of our common law heritage, and therefore no longer allows the use of good-sense discretion in determining right and wrong (and associated discipline and responsibilities).

What did anyone expect to be the result? As always, put garbage into the system, get garbage out.

11:34 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think it was Trotsky who said "give me the children and I will ensure the revolution."

11:39 PM, June 18, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

My daughter told me last year at her middle school i Houston there were so many girls declaring themselves as lesbians (it was trendy!) that they banned girls from hugging each other. I couldn't believe how badly they were overreacting but just had to tell her to be careful not to do it herself.

11:40 PM, June 18, 2007  
Blogger David said...

"The administration is basically handcuffed between a rock and a hard place by the general direction and decisions of a society that is using Roman law techniques to destroy what remains of our common law heritage"...there is considerable truth in this, *but* I see little evidence that the school administrators have made much attempt at resisting these trends. Why have they not demanded the discretion to expel troublemakers, for instance?

Most managers in businesses will put up a fight if someone attempts to reduce their decision-making authority. This does not seem to be the case with the average school administrator.

12:16 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Margaret said...

"The reason that people are so accepting of stupid rules like this is because it sounds fine to them."

So, where did it start? Where did people learn to be so accepting of stupid rules without questioning them and the authorities who put the stupid rules in place?

12:35 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What's really interesting is that the fecal-brains who come up with these rules probably have a "Question Authority" bumpersticker.

Since dissent is the highest form of patriotism, does that mean that the gropers, huggers, hi-fivers, and frottage artists are the true patriots?

12:54 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

I'm sorry, but since I spend a good part my time in a culture where (as a man) you are expected to hug every man and kiss every woman you meet, even if you just saw them yesterday, I don't get it.

12:55 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone mentioned Antioch College.

Guess what? It's closing.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/06/15/antioch.college.ap/index.html?eref=rss_education

12:57 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Momzilla said...

The reason why people accept these stupid rules is because they are LAZY! It's hard darned work to teach and guide young people into principles. Much easier to put a bunch of draconian rules on them.

The truth of the matter is that stupid rules tend to have two undesirable results: First, the kids perceive it as a challenge to be rebellious yet technically inside the rules. Second, it teaches them disrespect for rules. Teenagers tend to have a hypersensitive sense of justice.

1:01 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Ben said...

Government education simply needs to come to an end.

Now that the union is in almost 100% control of schools, this kind of thing will accelerate until it becomes the norm at all schools.

Ask yourself why home-schooled kids outperform public school kids academically. And then ask yourself what an education degree is for.

1:02 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like the principle needs some physical contact upside the head

alan

1:02 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Or as they said in the oilfieds where I worked my way through college: "Upsahd da' hade".

1:12 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Kev said...

"We cannot allow beuraucrats to teach our children that all human touch is bad. "

Let me make that sentence even better:

"We cannot allow beuraucrats to teach our children."

There's a simple solution for this, once we as a society grow a collective backbone: Administrators must teach. Give them one hour a day where they're required to 1) actually do something productive, and 2) see how the real world operates (perhaps for the first time in 20-30 years), and we might witness some real change.

(I hope I don't seem like a link-whore for talking about this post of mine at every blog that posts a story about educrat-ical idiocy. I really think it's an idea whose time has come.)

And everyone should read Jonah Goldberg's column today about an even more radical solution: Getting rid of public schools entirely.

1:34 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger AntiCitizenOne said...

You don't have an education system any more!

You have a crèche for adolescents that also indoctrinates them in pc bullshit.

If you are planning on having children then make sure you can afford to avoid jailing them in the state system.

1:59 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous davod said...

"I think it was Trotsky who said "give me the children and I will ensure the revolution.""

Off topic, but just remember in ten years how many schools have been showing "An inconvenient truth" without rebuttal.

3:13 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Seems like no-one at the school has ever watched "The Island". Very disturbing.

3:13 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Mercurior said...

unfortunatly, it happened in one school, here, no tag, no physical contact, the kids are encouraged to play shadow tag. so its not just america, its the UK too

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=435233&in_page_id=1770

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6356865.stm

why its happening, its easy, people are no longer responsible for their own actions, they have to be standardised. its also called function creep, it may be sensible to have one rule, but then they add a little bit more, and more and more.. until everything is banned.

its called function creep,

an example, you have an id card, ok, fine.. but then you add a fingerprint, ok, then a retina scan, then a dna scan, then all your medical details, then all your money details, then... until the id card made for good reasons becomes a device of total control and total information.

about your life, and with that information would come controls, credit history that will not allow you to buy this item, as you once missed a payment, or health, they wont allow you to buy steak, because you have high cholesterol. you have to have diet drinks because of this..

4:23 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Graham (Did I say, uh, "Garrghhhhhhh!!!!"...Guess I did...") Strouse said...

Where is the Kurgan when you need him? I mean, as a comparative subject of depravity, well, I've got something to say: "It's better to burn in (fill in your favorite burning, sulfurous vacation place here), then to FADE AWAY!"

Kids, all I gotta say is that if you stick to '70s Ramones & Violent Femmes, you'll come out normal.

With a prison record, possibly, but ultimately normal. And the plus side of prison is the networking opportunity. Just shower backwards and it's all...well, not good. I tell no lies.

But you won't fade away!!!!!

(Being 6'4" tall & hugely strong with an ability to resist all violence save decapitation does help here. Oh, and keep "Best of Queen" on your iPoD.")

GAHHHHHHHHHRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!

(Did I say that? May bad. So rude.)

GAHHHHRGHHHH!!!!

(That was civilized...about 3,000 years ago. Be nice, kids. And never chop somebody's head off unless...uh...unless you really mean it. And it's an alternate Thursday.)

There can be only one!

(Sequels excepted, of course...)

Bloody.

Just blew my line, again.

Kids, don't chop off heads.

Not unless you're sure you're going to get to write the history.

You might have defamatory "Discovery Channel" episodes inflicted on you otherwise.

Nobody wants that.

Gaarrrghhhhhhh!!!!!

4:38 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Tushar D said...

It would be fun if everytime the Principal walks in the halls, hundreds of kids pair up, index fingers withing an inch of each other, and saying "I am not touching, I am not touching!!!!"

Childish? Yes, but how else do you react to the School's childishness?

6:30 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Charlie on the PA Turnpike said...

Gives a whole new meaning to that game I'm not touching you

Parents are forced to put up with this because a lack of choice. Public schools hold the purse strings on our taxes. Even in states like Pennsylvania, where virtual charter schools are permitted by law, the School Board associations and teachers unions go to great lengths to break them, so as to preserve their monopoly.

Sad.

7:22 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Pat said...

I am very, very glad that my youngest child just graduated from high school and I will never have to deal with the public school system again (other than being forced to pay for it).

Just yesterday I learned that a friend of mine from the local community theatre has been fired from his high school teaching job. He made the mistake of giving a student a ride home from school. The student claimed that he touched her inappropriately, and he was instantly terminated. No investigation, no hearing, just summary dismissal. Accusation = guilt.

7:31 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

It's funny that the problems suburban parents rail against today are of the "not enough touching" variety.

Better that your kids aren't getting assaulted or felt up in the hallways folks. Such a 21st century complaint. And here Dr.Trey is complaining his girl is sweet 16 and still hasn't been hit. Heh.

Sponsor the touchy-feely rooms on your own time, it will get them in good practice for the alcohol-fueled parties the parents are hosting for safety. And someone suggest the safeplace for orgies, condoms supplied, is next. Will there be pictures and video as we all celebrate our children being initiated? As a taxpayer, I really wish some of you whiners would take a bit of responsibility for your own kids -- their need for touch, better school policies, etc. Elevating these school administration things makes you seem silly -- change your schools if you don't like them. Or work to get your kid better. Don't sit back and bitch. Or just admit that you really enjoy the sitting back and bitching. Using the kids as pawns in the games. They only let you do that for so long you know...

7:37 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger PermagrinGirl said...

My the times they have changed.... I graduated from a Fairfax county high school in '93, and I had the exactly opposite problem. My main complaint was that I could not get students to STOP touching me, and the teachers would do nothing. And these weren't pats on the back, these were direct sexual assaults in the middle of the classroom, or being shoved up against a locker, and having some guy try to feel me up in the halls. I still cringe when I recall my German class, where the guy in front of me was in the habit of turning around and trying to shove his hand between my legs. Even though I spoke to the teacher multiple times about it, and asked that we be moved apart from each other, it took me standing up in the middle of the classroom and screaming "You get your filthy hands off of me NOW!" before she would do a thing about it. And she treated me like I was the troublemaker.

Apparently Fairfax county school employees lack the wits or judgment required to discern the difference between 'good touch' and 'bad touch', and I suspect this rule was put in place more to take the burden of actual thought from the teachers, than it was to protect the students.

8:19 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger JBlog said...

I place the blame for this where I think it ultimately belongs -- the parents.

Gone are the days when school officials could set reasonable standards of behavior and exercise good judgment in how to enforce them, with the support of parents.

Today, any infraction of the rules of good conduct is immediately challenged by parents, who frankly don't know how to behave themselves, much less how to get their kids to behave.

Witness the recent cases where students were denied their high school diplomas because their family members cheered during graduation ceremonies -- in violation of school rules.

On it's face, such a prohibition on celebration seems excessive -- after all, it is a high school graduation.

But what led to such a draconian rule is that in previous years such "celebrations" became so frenzied and raucous that they disrupted the entire ceremony, ruining it for the majority of the participants. In some cases, fistfights broke out.

So ultimately, what has happened is that school officials have given up.

Since they can't depend on parents for support in enforcing reasonable rules of good conduct, they've moved to severe limits on behavior that require no interpretation or judgment.

We may not like this, but frankly we deserve it.

9:05 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Anonymous wrote: "And here Dr.Trey is complaining his girl is sweet 16 and still hasn't been hit. Heh."

She is 12. I will bet you that she gets hit before 16. Wanna bet? "Surviving" a punch is an important learning experience/right of passage. I am in favor of it!

And Amouse wondered what incidents could have precipitated the rule. What kind of incidents would justify the rule?

In the original story I heard that some girls had complained to the guidance counselor (spot the spychologist (that was a typo, but it seemed appropos so I left it)) that they did not like giving and receiving hugs but were too uncomfortable to say "no." So the admin in their infinite lack of wisdom decided to further victimize the girls instead of teaching them 10 minutes of assertiveness.

Cool, that way they can stay non-assertive and the entire school can be turned into a twilight zone episode of pc run amok.
Trey

9:59 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Margaret said...

"Parents are forced to put up with this because a lack of choice. Public schools hold the purse strings on our taxes."

Just because we pay taxes for a "service" doesn't mean we have to use it. Homeschoolers and private schoolers all over the US grit their teeth as they write their property tax checks each year, then close their checkbooks and go on teaching their own kids on their own dime.

10:02 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Skeptic said...

I can't argue with the folks here who point to the parents as the ultimate problem. My first thought, however, has barely been touched upon. Such obviously arbitrary and capricious rules teach disrespect for the rule of law. Kids have to rely on their own sense of what's right since it is obvious to them that the arbitrary rules they experience daily isn't it. However, they are not mature enough to be making those determinations on their own and some will inevitably make poor choices. The analogy of speed limits just came to mind. Are you likely to strictly obey a speed limit which is set obviously too low for the street, such that you feel like an idiot creeping along? Aren't you far more likely to obey the limit if it seems reasonable, even if it is 5 or 10 mph slower than you might have otherwise gone? The long term result of widespread overregulation is contempt for the limits and the feeling that what is right is what feels right, since they had no better guidance.

10:08 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Permagirl wrote: ""You get your filthy hands off of me NOW!" before she would do a thing about it. And she treated me like I was the troublemaker."

Outstanding! I bet he did stop! While it is gross that you had that happen to you, man you really nailed him!

It sucks that you were treated as the trouble maker, I wish your dad had heard about it and had a lengthy heart to heart with the teacher about the teacher's responsibility to protect his daughter and how he would hold the teacher personally responsible for any failures to do so.

But I am proud of you for standing up and shouting for yourself. I hope you taught a lot of other kids what to do and what not to do. Decisive brave acts like yours do that.

Outstanding.

Trey

10:08 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger pepr said...

Private school is the answer...my sister and I were just discussing this.

Not only does the third grade teacher hug the kids when they want one and on the playground they hold her hand

Amazingly at my nephews preschool graduation they said the pledge of the allegiance with GOD and sang God Bless America and America the Beautiful.

Even in California there is some enlightenment....if you pay for it.
p

10:15 AM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous triticale said...

I attended a predominantly black urban high school back in the '60s. There was an elaborate system of handshakes, actually rooted in Masonic ritual, which was a core part of my classmates' identity. I see the potential for accusing administrators who prohibit handshakes of being racist.

10:50 AM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger ron st.amant said...

I guess this means I have to stage an intervention between my 21-month old and Teletubbies. They teach hugging each other is a sign of love.

12:06 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Bryan said...

My sister's son attended Kilmer, which has a reputation for weirdness. My nephew and his friends took great delight in testing the rules there.

It was prohibited at Kilmer to ask a student his/her sex - I suppose for sexual harassment reasons. This nephew and his buddies went around asking each other "Are you a boy or a girl" for weeks.

On another occasion, my nephew and friends landed in the principal’s office for suspicion of gang activity. Reason: They wore the same color shirts on the same day.

12:08 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger PermagrinGirl said...

TMink -

Credit goes to my mother for telling me that'd be the way to get the teacher to listen. It taught me to stick up for myself, and it's stood me in good stead post high school as well.

If someone goes to a teacher with complaints about hugging, what's so difficult about a) telling the person doing the hugging to cut it out and b) encouraging the girls to speak up when someone makes them uncomfortable in the future? As other folks have commented, this teaches children disrespect for the rules, since the rules are dumb. It also does nothing to prepare the girls in question for the much harder lessons later in life - like how to say no to a date that wants to take things further than you want.

1:02 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Kent said...

He made the mistake of giving a student a ride home from school. The student claimed that he touched her inappropriately, and he was instantly terminated. No investigation, no hearing, just summary dismissal. Accusation = guilt.

If I was the administrator, I would have terminated him, too. Not for groping her -- that is not proved -- but for being stupid enough to give a teenage girl a ride home from school.

Don't bet me wrong. The Virginia school has crossed the line from merely stupid to inhuman with its "no touch" rule, applied between students.

But, given the times: Putting yourself in a situation where you are alone off-campus with a student is just asking for trouble.

My church requires me to have another man present when I teach children in Sunday School. It's nothing personal and it's not because my church is evil or stupid. It's because the Catholic pedophile-priest scandal poisoned the well for everyone, which my church is realistic about.

1:04 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger dadvocate said...

The lesson being taught is that the government is the answer to all your problems. If someone touches you and you don't like it, government intervention is needed, not assertiveness. Extrememe liberalism believes government is the answer to all woes. And, this is a government school.

This incident also provides another good reason for school vouchers to be used at the school of the parents' choice.

The beauty here is that the "educators" and administrators are being exposed before the entire world thanks to the Internet, bloggers, etc. We all know what idiots these people are although I doubt they realize their idiocy.

1:10 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Momzilla said...

Oh, don't think that private schools are necessarily any better relating to asinine rules. It's more noticeable in high school. Some of them even require the students to sign contracts relating to off campus activities such as viewing R-rated movies. And I don't even want to go into the continuous tweaking of the uniform rules; they're starting to make ME rebellious.

The last edict down was over what belts the kids wear. Now, admittedly some kids were going over the top (pink leopard print, etc.). Deal with them. The rule they gave the entire school was that they had to buy a $40 belt from the uniform store. It was identical to the leather gap belt my daughter was already wearing, just more expensive and not as good quality. I told her, "I've had enough. If they have a problem with your specific belt, have the headmaster call ME." I was able to throw a big enough fit to get a waiver for my daughter to wear her own khaki trousers because the uniform store doesn't carry her size; she's tall, slim and long legged and I just don't think that having to wear overpriced, ill fitting, highwater trousers is a necessary character lesson.

1:23 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

At 1:02, permagringirl sad this:"If someone goes to a teacher with complaints about hugging, what's so difficult about a) telling the person doing the hugging to cut it out and b) encouraging the girls to speak up when someone makes them uncomfortable in the future? As other folks have commented, this teaches children disrespect for the rules, since the rules are dumb. It also does nothing to prepare the girls in question for the much harder lessons later in life - like how to say no to a date that wants to take things further than you want."

Sorry, perma, I have to challenge you on this: why do you assume that this behavior makes boys any less comfortable? Okay, when it comes to overtly sexual behavior, males do tend to be more aggressive. But on the other hand, you should not assume that boys are less uncomfortable with these touchy-feely events like group hugs and the like. Some of us otherwise normal boys find them very intimidating.

And as for dates that want to go too far, my sense of talking with some of the high school and college age men that I know is that THEY need to learn how to say 'no,' too.

Rusty

1:28 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Seerak said...

For, if every behavior is seen in terms of black and white, how will kids learn where the boundaries are?

Um, "black" and "white" equates to "this side" and "that side" of a boundary, so I'm a bit confused by this question. If you are unable to think in terms of black and white, you are unable to grasp, let alone deal with, such things as moral boundaries -- let alone grey areas.

If anything, what we are seeing here is an attempt to evade the necessity of thinking in any terms at all. Instead of having to judge whether something is "in-bounds" and "out-of-bounds", why not draw the boundaries so everything is painted "black"?

After all, thinking is hard!

But surely the solution to this insanity is to *make* the effort of moral thought and judgement -- not to reliquish the capacity entirely in the grey muddle of moral relativism which is all that's left once you abolish "thinking in terms of black and white".

(I'm fairly certain this isn't what you meant to suggest. I'm just pointing this out because "black and white" thinking is not the simplistic abdication of moral thought as conventional "wisdom" has it. It's a necessary stage of any moral thought -- if it is to be *thought* instead of mere unexamined feelings.)

1:57 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger PermagrinGirl said...

Rusty -

I was responding to TMink's comment that this rule was precipitated by the complaints of 'some girls'. I didn't 'assume' that boys are fine with any sort of touch they get. But hey, it's nice to see that some boys are just as hypersensitive as some girls are, and willing to read sexism into every statement.

2:10 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Tom DeGisi said...

Rules don't have brains. Using rules to solve complex problems is, therefore, problematic.

I wish people would say the following more often:

There outta be NO law.

(I am not an anarchist.)

It is a particularly bad idea to selectively enforce a rule. Hardly teaches respect for the rule of law.

2:38 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Helen said...

Hi seerak,

By black and white, I mean moral reasoning that is inflexible--right or wrong with no abstract thought given at all--and at a low level such as Kohlberg's preconventional stage which has to do with moral reasoning and behavior based on rules and fear of punishment. That is what these administrators are teaching kids, that ALL touching is wrong, regardless of whether it is or not. If you touch, you will be punished. This is black and white thinking. Are there some things that are absolute, right or wrong? Yes, but touching isn't one of them.

3:16 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous GPE said...

I have to wonder about the childhood kinesthetic experiences of these teachers and administrators. What about that would make them think this was even remotely a good idea.

3:45 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"willing to read sexism into every statement."

I didn't have to 'read' it in; it was already there. Perhaps if you had referred to 'children' instead of 'girls' I would not have noticed. But your girl-centric analysis does reveal a measure of sexism.

Rusty

3:49 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger TMink said...

Hey Rusty, the "girls" comment in question came from my original post in this mini-thread. Perma was responding to my mention of gender. And my mention of gender came from a report regarding the origin of the very silly policy.

So, I hope this squashes the sexist spector of Perma's posts.

Trey (who is apparently stuck in some alliterative brain fart)

4:10 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger serket said...

bryan said: It was prohibited at Kilmer to ask a student his/her sex - I suppose for sexual harassment reasons. This nephew and his buddies went around asking each other "Are you a boy or a girl" for weeks.

When I was in Junior High, I came upon this list of how to annoy people. I went up to this really rude kid and asked if he was a boy or girl. Boy, did he get mad! He probably could have whipped me too, but luckily I had some friends around. :-)

4:15 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Chip Ahoy said...

There's entirely too much hugging going on in this country and it must cease immediately. What's with all this running your hands up and down my ribs, feeling to see if I'm still skinny? People must learn to keep their grubby mitts to themselves. All of you wash your hands thoroughly and frequently.

4:38 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Joe said...

Oddly, my kid's public schools are pretty good. We've had some minor problems and the Principal of our local Junior High has a backbone made of jelly, so he often takes the easy way out. The biggest problem we had was a third grade teacher who insisted on giving my son hugs--turns the complaints against this guy were a mile long, but they couldn't get rid of him due to the teacher's union. (I think they eventually paid him to retire early.)

Conversely, most of the local private schools are out of their minds. They make this school in Virginia look normal, so the meme of getting rid of public schools and going private doesn't hold water with me.

5:48 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

tmink, permagringirl:

peace.

rusty

5:48 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oligonicella: "There is the crux of it. A PC idiot abstracting the worst and then enacting to avoid it. The Uberlibs don't really want cultural diversity..."

You just went from making a good point ("This is the fault of stupid people") to a bad point ("This is the fault of liberalism!!").

This has nothing to do with political liberalism. When can we finally drop ambiguous political labels and call stupid stupid?

6:38 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger ricpic said...

Insane lefty freaks. They want wall to wall sex but no affection.

6:46 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

I stand by my point. The conservatives are not running the schools.

Yes, stupid is stupid and I'll karp about stupid things conservatives do. This ain't one of them.

You, of course, are entitled to a differing opinion.

7:34 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger tomcal said...

Well I made it to Nigaragua this morning, where I was hugged and kissed by every woman I know down here, and they are all beautiful.

Life is good without political correctness.

7:57 PM, June 19, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

“Okay, when it comes to overtly sexual behavior, males do tend to be more aggressive.”

Yes this was true in the past, but today it is the teenage girl who is the aggressor. It is shocking to this 45 year old just how aggressive these girls have become.
Bert

11:05 PM, June 19, 2007  
Blogger David said...

One more thought on this topic. The desire to micromanage everything according to comprehensive rules is not unique to the schools (although it is most virulent there) but seems increasingly pervasive throughout our society. For example: In the DC area several years ago, an ambulance paramedic got in serious trouble for performing a procedure on a patient that he was not authorized to perform--even though he had a physician on the phone who *directed* him to perform that procedure and indicated that it was the only possibility of saving the patient's life.

In business, customer-contact personnel are increasingly required to follow idiotic scripts ("Good afternoon. Thank you for calling SquareWheels Rental Cars. My name is Tiffany. How may I serve your transportation needs with excellence today?")

Peter Drucker once observed that you can't "hire a hand" because its owner comes with it. Too many people today want to "hire a mouth" to recite rote formulae.

There may be some common root causes here worth thinking about.

8:56 AM, June 20, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

Where's the ACLU when you need 'em?

11:10 AM, June 20, 2007  
Anonymous Heather said...

As a former student, and employee of the VA school system I most say this does not surprise me one bit. Rules this stupid have been floating around the VA school system for years. It boils down to stupid politics in the state that have only been adjusted the wrong way so many years. VA schools are more concerned about not get sued then about teaching our kids, and future world leaders, what really matters in the world today. And sorry teachers of VA, I know you don’t get much “touching” in your personal life but that is no reason to stop kids from give a friend a hug and a high five.

12:51 PM, June 20, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

Fairfax County used to have trendy, progressive schools - at least when I attended them. Mine didn't have any classrooms - just wide, open spaces where teachers and students could "interact." Lots of happy activities to keep us "engaged." Minimal rules governing student conduct in or out of class.

Sounds like things are going in the opposite direction.

4:10 PM, June 20, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Another article: A study on touch versus talk to alleviate stress.

http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/top_news/detail/Stressed_women_prefer_actions_to_words.html?siteSect=106&sid=7942604&cKey=1182279775000


"But massage [and touch, hugs, pat on the back, high fives, et al] can be very comforting, people today often lack that physical contact."

8:19 AM, June 21, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

Good point.

As an experiment, take a group of chimpanzees and punish them every time they try to groom each other. You'll end up with a bunch of insane primates.

12:47 PM, June 21, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Vienna School System Rules

Touching could lead to fighting, therefore no touching.

Talking could lead to arguing, therefore no talking.

Walking could lead to stumbling, which could cause injury, therefore no walking.

Breathing could lead to inhaling dangerous bacteria, therefore no breathing.

Thinking could lead to confusion and errors, therefore no thinking.

10:49 PM, June 21, 2007  
Blogger Dana said...

yikes. What little I know about mental health seems to suggest that physical touch is critically important to physical and emotional well-being.

So we lock our kids up for eight hours per day at a school with no touching.

2:54 AM, June 22, 2007  
Anonymous db said...

br549 and others -- if you view this as a left-right issue you won't get anywhere with it.

The only way to get something done about situations like this is to get parents to understand that their own school may be just as screwed up as the one down the road they think they're superior to. People need to be demanding of their schools -- like the Beaulieus.

Here's how you might get it done in practice. In the late 1980s a Democratic governor and legislature in Minnesota got one of America's toughest procedures for accountability for public school -- full, statewide open enrollment complete with a funding system in which the state money follows the open enrolling students. If a student goes to another school through open enrollment, the money follows him or her -- and the school district losing the student MUST provide transportation too. If a student withdraws to home school, the money gets docked from the school district (although so far does not get provided to the home schooling parents). In any case, schools in Minnesota face serious negative consequences in terms of state funding for losing enrollment, and the system makes it very easy for students to walk. Bear in mind that 80 percent of general education operating funding comes from the state in Minnesota. This might not be so effective in more localized states.

The Democratic govenor in question, Rudy Perpich, narrowly lost his re-election after the open enrollment law. But his legislative allies who got the law through survived, the law stands, and 30,000 students statewide use it. More than 17,000 students homeschooled as of 2004-05. It is a tremendous success and there's no clearer way for parents to judge the performance of a school district in Minnesota than looking at their open enrollment and homeschool numbers.

If open enrollment sounds like a tough sell in your home state, maybe you want to look at how school administrators are trained. Believe me, most postgraduate education programs for principals and superintendents stink. They could do with an overhaul, and between these poor excuses for postgraduate degrees and the severe shortage of school administrators, maybe people with non-education advanced degrees should be allowed in too.

Sorry for the long post, hope it was informative.

10:00 AM, June 22, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

Those school admins would probably feel right at home here.

2:42 PM, June 22, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

tomcal 7:57 P.M.

....hugged and kissed by every woman I know down here...........

In the immortal words of Johnny Carson, "May the Bird of Paradise fly up your nose".

7:13 PM, June 22, 2007  
Blogger Kev said...

I forgot to say something in my first comment (way upthread now): I have zero tolerance for "zero tolerance". Rules like this are only put in place so administrators don't even have to think, much less make a decision that might upset someone (horrors!).

4:03 AM, June 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have to say this is the FIRST TIME i have EVER posted a blog or commented on a story, but when i read about this poor boy that was repremanded for touching someone (his girlfriend), it sruck a nerve. what on earth are we doing here nowadays! i'm only 31 years old, but even when i was in school we were taught to respect other people's personal space and somehow (tongue & cheek), we all turned out fine and my teachers did a fine job. this is off the charts ridiculous. i don't know what medium i need to use to tell these backward folk that what they're doing is detrimental to the children. anyway, i hope that someone reads this and feels the same way.

8:00 AM, June 23, 2007  
Anonymous Dave said...

GRRR, I don't need a degree to say that the school is just wrong in their thought, no hugging, PLEASE.

9:50 AM, June 23, 2007  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i attended fairfax county middle school 2 years ago and it's actually refered to as "the DAYLIGHT RULE" which means daylight must be seen between 2 people at all times.

2:37 PM, June 23, 2007  
Anonymous hildigunnur said...

This sort of thing is the reason why the US is ridiculed in much of the rest of the world, sorry but it is. Don't believe it has anything to do with left/right in politics at all, that would mean things would be far worse in the Nordic countries (often erroneusly called Scandinavia). Well, it isn't.

This is just not using common sense.

5:24 AM, June 25, 2007  
Blogger br549 said...

"This sort of thing is the reason why the US is ridiculed in much of the rest of the world....."

And rightly so, hildigunnur.

But, it has been MADE a left / right point of view. Still not quite sure how it came to that though.

Wait... my phone is ringing. I need to find it in the bottom of my Mao purse.

12:29 PM, June 25, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

My impression is that Nordic countries are probably more culturally homogeneous than the United States is.

I think when the majority of people in a country or region "naturally" agree on how things should be, there is less motivation for them to enact stupid laws regulating behavior.

In a massively multicultural place like the States, there is no natural agreement and so we try to use the legislature (or power of a school admin) to define what "normal" and "acceptable" mean.

Check with the Danes, though. They're beginning to deal with the same issues we've had for a hundred years or so.

That's my phony-baloney theory, anyway...

2:04 PM, June 25, 2007  
Anonymous hildigunnur said...

Not just the Danes, Swedes too. Yes, we're not quite as different culturally than you people. (and I'm in Iceland, and we're pretty homogenous here, though that is changing fairly fast now. Hope we can learn of other nations' mistakes)

I assure you that I'm aware of how difficult it is to live in such a divided culture and that I don't ridicule the United States, there are fortunately much more clueful Americans around than the clueless ones ;)

The political correctness issues that we hear about really are ridiculous, (6 year olds being accused of sexual harassments for kissing classmates on the cheek, parents almost losing custody of their 11 year old son, as he helped his younger sister pee, mothers prosecuted for breastfeeding, thousands upon thousands of letters to a TV station when (accidentally or not) a flash of a breast is seen - not even the nipple). It is actually only the people on the far right here that don't think such things are incredible. And I don't really think this has all that much to do with the cultural divide.

Again, just common sense. Or nonsense...

3:04 PM, June 25, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

...there are fortunately much more clueful Americans around than the clueless ones

Fewer than you might think! ;-)

Aside from PC and zero-tolerance, another class of American outrage is the frivolous lawsuit. FYI...

I'm not sure Americans understand why this stuff happens, We can't even agree about what "common sense" is anymore.

You have a nice blog site, by the way. Like the cat.

5:59 PM, June 25, 2007  
Blogger Bugs said...

P.S. - Just to prove we don't have the only weird laws, there's this from the BBC.

6:49 PM, June 25, 2007  
Anonymous hildigunnur said...

bugs, OH NOOOO!?!? :-D

Yes, the frivolous lawsuits are a great deal of the reason for the ridiculing. And yes, the Brits have their part of silly laws as well, the whole animal protection thing is gone wild in Britain. I'm pretty sure we have some silly ones too, can't think of one at the moment, though.

Thanx, guess you can't understand a whole lot on my site, though :)

7:34 PM, June 25, 2007  
Anonymous hildigunnur said...

Bugs, just added a short English version. You have a page?

7:45 PM, June 25, 2007  
Blogger Actos said...

nice post, it's really interesting for me today, thx

2:47 PM, June 27, 2007  
Anonymous Phentermine said...

I agree with Actoc

10:59 AM, June 29, 2007  
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