Neo-neocon has more on the shooter:
It may seem like an impossible task but it is so very important to make the right call. One of the problems I have encountered in my career is that people often do not take potential dangerousness seriously enough when they are informed.
The shooter’s profile could have been written by almost anyone beforehand, so precisely does it fit what we’ve come to expect of people who end up as mass murderers. And if he did in fact go to counselors for some therapy sessions, I’d hate to be one of those counselors today. Evaluating potentially violent patients and deciding when to alert authorities about their dangerousness is one of the especially knotty and heavy responsibilities of therapists, and an almost impossible task.
It may seem like an impossible task but it is so very important to make the right call. One of the problems I have encountered in my career is that people often do not take potential dangerousness seriously enough when they are informed.
posted by Helen at 3:53 PM
23 Comments:
an almost impossible task
Do the privacy restrictions make it more difficult for those who can intervene to be informed?
Methodical and Angry
"It was 5:30 Monday morning ... his morning ritual of ...taking his medication."
"But the officials said he once set fire to his dorm room and was taking medication for depression."
They aren't telling which medications or the complete diagnosis out of respect for a dead man's privacy.
We mustn't judge.
Famous last words...
If this kid was on anti-psychotic medication, were the resident assistants informed? When the women who were stalked reported the behavior to counselors, school officials, dorm monitors, policemen, were they informed?
Isn't there a link between arson and sexual frustration? When he set fire to his room, did the individual who processed the "allegation" have access to his medical records? Were they aware of the allegations of stalking women? Do HIPAA restrictions impede intervention? Do the civil rights of mentally unbalanced individual trump the rights of your daughter's safety in her dorm or classroom?
We don't know yet. For all we know, they'll blame the medication for depression for his psychosis.
The Smoking Gun has one of the guy's essays. Really messed up stuff. Click through to my blog for the link to it.
Sebastian,
Thanks for linking it--I have already read the essay. One of this guy's professors talked to authorities about his behavior and was told there were too many legal ramifications for doing anything. She tried to get him to go to counseling but he never went. It seems to me that if sick students have free reign on campus--then mentally well students and faculty should have the right to protect themselves.
"One of the problems I have encountered in my career is that people often do not take potential dangerousness seriously enough when they are informed." This statement is so very true. I live in VA and this tragedy has affected us all even my 9 year old. Our babysitter is a JR at TECH, so my youngest was terrified until she heard her voice. Regarding Dr. Helen's statement above, it's very alarming when you(me)alert authorities of violent behavior and threats from my ex-husband. My children witnessed a violent event from thier father hurting their mother before our city officials finally removed him from our home. Why does this continue to be the case? Maybe this horrific event will open the eyes of those who can help or put these individuals in a place where they will not harm others. God Bless these famalies.
Kind of reminds you of just about every other school shooting ever - plenty of warnings signs, all of which were either ignored, misunderstood, or about which the authorities' "ROE" allowed them to do nothing.
Going beyond the gunman's guilt, I've been repeatedly struck by the outright negligence of the University administration in their actions, or more precisely, non-action. Every decision was governed by extremely liberal political correctness.
Every decision was governed by extremely liberal political correctness.
What if the administrators are hamstrung by current law? This whole issue reminds me of Gorelick's Wall, the "wall" that prevented communication between intelligence agents and criminal investigators. (I am assuming there was a medical history on Cho that was not known to administrators at Virginia Tech. Hot Air is reporting that his roommates reported in an interview with Paula Zahn that his stalking of women warranted a trip to the counselors, "he saw promiscuity in their eyes.")
I read elsewhere that a "federal database" did not show him has being prescribed medication so he may not have a medical record after all. (I guess I knew that in the event that I were to be a person of interest they could track down my medical files but a federal database?)
I do know someone who teaches special education in Texas. She knew this kid. Mainstreaming is a noble concept. If parents only knew.
Dear Dr. Helen,
My name is Rasmus Bo Sorensen, I'm a journalist from a danish national newspaper called 'Information'. I would very much like to do an interview with you in relation to the tragedy at Virginia Tech. Please respond to this e-mail (rbs@information.dk) and leave your number. You can also call me: 0045 33696163
Hope to hear from you as soon as possible.
Best regards!
Rasmus Bo Sorensen
PS. Please note the time difference. It is now noon in Denmark
The Washington Post has an interesting article on the shooter today. It seems that people in the English department had a lot of concerns about Cho and made efforts to get him counseling and treatment. It appears he resisted these efforts, but no one could take coercive measures because his anger was unfocused - he didn't directly threaten anyone. This is such a tough problem. We have so many students who are lonely or angry. When do you move from offering help to forcing treatment on people? I say this as a professor in mathematics - a subject that rewards introspective, interior people. I've had a lot of "young, male loners" in my classes.
Has anyone been asking VT campus security why they felt the situation was under control after the 7am shooting when they didn't have anyone in police custody?
The victims familys need to sue the university, then the administrators, etc., personally. Money talks, when people in power are held responsible, then laws will change.
We need to set up a national center to which people suspected of these tendencies can be sent. They can be scanned by MRI, PET, have hormonal studies done, and undergo any other relevant testing. Once we have such a facility, then the question of what to "do" with such people has an answer. We will also have verifiable pfoof in hand. We can then draft appropriate laws for detention of such people.
When do you move from offering help to forcing treatment on people?
When they start stalking students, setting fire to their rooms, stop attending class, stop responding in class and repeatedly submit written assignments that project violent fantasies. When teachers and students repeatedly express fear. It's one thing to say this guy is creepy but it's another when students collectively decide not to attend a class in which he is enrolled.
I have great sympathy for any family that has a disturbed son or daughter at home. What do you when your 16 or 17-year refuses to take his medication, you can't compel your child to do so? The resources, financial and legal, offer little support.
"We need to set up a national center to which people suspected of these tendencies can be sent."
No, no, a thousand times no! This guy was obviously troubled, but xiaoding's plan would start down a slippery slope that would eventually roll over all non-conformists. Ask any introvert, any nerd, any shy person and they will all tell you that they've had an encounter with some well-meaning extrovert (a teacher or a counselor) who believed that there must be something wrong with them. Mine was my 7th grade social-studies teacher, who asked my parents if I was well-adjusted because I preferred to read The Lord of the Rings during breaks rather than chit-chat with other kids. Growing up is tough enough for kids who don't conform without setting up medical test camps for them to be forced into.
(My teacher was the same one who spent three days teaching the class about what happens in a nuclear war and how to survive one. If she's still teaching, she's probably earnestly scaring students with stories of what will happen under global warming.)
armchair - It's a wonderful sentiment, but I'm not sure how you could implement it in this country without tossing the entire Bill of Rights out the window.
In a capitalist economy, it seems like the best way to eliminate a product would be to get rid of the demand for it. You don't see too many 8-tracks on the street these days because nobody wants them anymore.
One way to get rid of the demand is to come up with something better. Better than guns - not sure. Maybe tranquilizer rays that work on everybody and don't accidentally kill people. We're not quite there yet.
Another way is to remove the need. That would mean making hunting illegal, banning the collection of guns, outlawing competitive shooting sports, and eliminating all forms of antisocial behavior against which people might feel the need to defend themselves. You can do the first three with the stroke of a pen. The last one might take a little more effort.
Good luck. Let us know how it goes.
The pervious comment don't belong in here. Try to ignore it.
Thank you.
This guy was over the line of introverted or weird and nerdy. Whether he was pre-morbid or had a full blown schizophrenia, he clearly should have had his right to own a weapon taken away until a professional was willing to go on record in court of law that he was as trustworthy as a healthy person.
Why don't gun rights get taken away from the dangerously mentally ill.
And don't tell me nobody though he was dangerous.
Beware of all people others term a loner.
anonymous @ 5:50 am: Is the full name of your newspaper Dagbladet Information?
Dr Helen writes:
"It may seem like an impossible task but it is so very important to make the right call. One of the problems I have encountered in my career is that people often do not take potential dangerousness seriously enough when they are informed."
And I have seen hundreds of people that had liberties restricted by someone who took their perceived dangerousness too seriously.
This is not rocket science. Predicting low probability behaviors is hard and you run the risk of too many false positives. A False Positive is where the "test" finds them "dangerous' when in fact they are not. Taking away fundamental risks is not good based on very little data.
Jeff
http://www.psychandthelaw.com/
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