The Dangerous Book for Boys
I did a post recently on The Dangerous Book for Boys
but the book had not come out yet in the US, until now (I saw that my copy just shipped). I see that it is up to number 14 on Amazon and I really think its popularity has to do with a dearth of good books that celebrate the wonder of boyhood. Here is a bit of an interview with one of the authors, Conn Iggulden, at Amazon.com, who feels the same way:
I look forward to getting my copy.
but the book had not come out yet in the US, until now (I saw that my copy just shipped). I see that it is up to number 14 on Amazon and I really think its popularity has to do with a dearth of good books that celebrate the wonder of boyhood. Here is a bit of an interview with one of the authors, Conn Iggulden, at Amazon.com, who feels the same way:Amazon.com: It's difficult to describe what a phenomenon The Dangerous Book for Boys was in the UK last year. When I would check the bestseller list on our sister site, Amazon.co.uk, there would be, along with your book, which spent much of the year at the top of the list, a half-dozen apparent knockoff books of similar boy knowledge. Clearly, you tapped into something big. What do you think it was?
Iggulden: In a word, fathers. I am one myself and I think we've become aware that the whole "health and safety" overprotective culture isn't doing our sons any favors. Boys need to learn about risk. They need to fall off things occasionally, or--and this is the important bit--they'll take worse risks on their own. If we do away with challenging playgrounds and cancel school trips for fear of being sued, we don't end up with safer boys--we end up with them walking on train tracks [my emphasis]. In the long run, it's not safe at all to keep our boys in the house with a Playstation. It's not good for their health or their safety.
You only have to push a boy on a swing to see how much enjoys the thrill of danger. It's hard-wired. Remove any opportunity to test his courage and they'll find ways to test themselves that will be seriously dangerous for everyone around them. I think of it like playing the lottery--someone has to say "Look, you won't win--and your children won't be hurt. Relax. It won't be you."
I think that's the core of the book's success. It isn't just a collection of things to do. The heroic stories alone are something we haven't had for too long. It isn't about climbing Everest, but it is an attitude, a philosophy for fathers and sons. Our institutions are too wrapped up in terror over being sued--so we have to do things with them ourselves. This book isn't a bad place to start.
I look forward to getting my copy.
Labels: interesting books
posted by Helen at 6:45 AM
90 Comments:
TO: Dr. Helen, et al.
RE: Teach Your Children Well
They need to learn, early, while they are still more resilient, that life is full of bumps and falls. But, that you can get back up again and get back on the proverbial 'horse' and do better the next time.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful. -- C. S. Lewis]
This is a book, seems to me, for those who wallow in some romantic of the Good Old Days. In fact, the boys today have their own thing(s),are in great shape, and know more and do more than ever before...I am delighted by the young men and women I see around me--and I am not young--and to pretend that things were so much better back then is simply nonsense.
I wonder how much of keeping boys inside, playing with videogames isn't to protect THEM, as much as it's a sneaky way of protecting ourselves. Boys are known to be exhuberant and to like things that go "boom", and exhuberant boom-making activities are also bad for the family's heirloom china or the school district's expensive anatomy skeleton, or the principal's politically correct Prius. Ever so much safer for them to have them inside staring at a television screen, no?
TO: Anonymouse
RE: Yeah....
"In fact, the boys today have their own thing(s),are in great shape...." -- Anonymouse
Just like Cho at VT the other week.
"Great shape", indeed.
Left a bloody trail behind him before deciding he'd had enough 'danger' and punched himself out.
Too bad people like you can't see the writing on the proverbial wall. Let alone, connect the dots.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Mene. Mene. Tekel. Kaput!'
Or as C.S. Lewis put it, something about 'traitors in our midst'.....]
P.S. CORRECTION!
Make that "....connect the BLOODY 'dots'."
Anonymous, I suspect you're either not paying attention or were never a boy in the "good old days". My childhood was chock full of stuff that no boy gets to do today, at least not at the same age.
At the age of eleven or so, I could ride my bike anywhere I was tough enough to ride it. I went miles from home in both urban traffic and on trails through parks and greenbelts. I rode myself two miles to baseball practice and back all summer. The proportion of child molesters was probably the same as today, but there was no 24-hour news cycle, so we were free.
We played games that involed climbing things (and jumping off). My brother broke his arm in one of those games, but my parents never said, "you boys need to settle down." The arm healed and what's the big deal anyway?
We had toy guns, slingshots, BB guns, rubber-band guns and sticks. We threw things at each other, like china berries and acorns, yet no one put an eye out.
We played real sports. Baseball was baseball (with a hard ball, never a softball) and you only had to wear a helmet while batting. We played tackle football in the grass and "touch" football on asphalt. We played Red Rover and Freeze Tag and Red Light Green Light and all sorts of made up, kinetic games. We played at being army men and cowboys and indians and space explorers. Other than crashing my bike a few times and getting some road rash, I don't remember any real injuries.
We built stuff. We had treehouses and forts and spaceships made from the box the refridgerator came in. On rainy days, we made forts with sheets and furniture in the living room. We made pinewood derby racers, model airplanes and Gemini capsules. I got the 50 electronics projects kit from radio shack and wore it out.
In short, it was glorious. It was all doing, very little watching.
Few boys in the US have a chance to grow up that way anymore. Parents who would let them do these things would be frowned upon, if not turned in to Child Protective Services.
TO: Rob
RE: True
We camped out on a large hill behind the house. Climbed what we thought were huge cliffs. Picked blackberries armed with BB-guns to kill the copperheads we found there. Fished, like Huck Finn along the Missouri River. Made Improvised Explosive Devices from common household chemicals and blew things up. Played flashlight tag until midnight. Frisbee tag. Sailed day-sailors all day and into the evening without life vests...on. Made and rode our own skate boards down steep grades with rocks strewn along the way to add to the excitement; no padding, no helmet.
A fine time was had by all. And, I cannot think of ANYONE who was injured.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
Few boys in the US have a chance to grow up that way anymore.
Not where I'm at.
It's the non-male-raising Dr. Helen's who think those days are passed, but not for all American kids.
Remember, this is a lady who couldn't make it through the overnight campout in her own back yard! And she is not raising a son, so her fears are greatly exaggerated. Her profession may contribute to her fears.
I was talking to a Mom that told me that she let her kids walk less than 1 mile through a path in the woods between school and home.
She told me about the incredulous looks and comments that she got from other moms in the neighborhood. Then she sheepishly said, "Maybe I'm a bad mom.", because I think she wasn't sure if I'd agree with her or not with giving her kids that kind of freedom. I let her know that I thought that she was a terrific mom and that it's important for get to get a sense of independence and not to be afraid.
As if it was a given that the woods were full of child molesters. That's how many parents operate today. Parents that won't let their 12 year olds walk around a mall out of the parents site, or give them freedom to go with a group of friends unsupervised by an adult.
Some parents aren't just afraid of what might happen to the kids, but also what might the kids get into on their own. Afraid that their kids might make a bad choice or do something that will get them "hurt" or "in trouble".
Hmm. Let's treat our kids like they are fragile, vulnerable, and incapable of making wise choices, and need to be protected by adults.
Anonymous said:It's the non-male-raising Dr. Helen's who think those days are passed, but not for all American kids.
Well, I am a male-raising dad, and I agree with Dr. Helen. There are a lot of parents that I deal with who are very smothering and let baseless fears dictate many things that their kids cannot do.
And if you confront them about it and try to get them to change their minds, they'll use the "It's not like when we were kids" line to defend their position, and they won't budge from their very emotional position.
Kids will be kids, if you'll just let them. I suggest that people turn off the video games and make their kids go outside. My copy of the book is on it's way too.
They're better off in the woods than the mall.
Or a family reunion, for that matter.
Anonymous 6:32 needs to read Dr. Helen more, because s/he obviously doesn't know her attitude about male-raising - which has little relationship to her inability to camp. (Dr. Helen - I hate camping, too!!)
When I was a child I climbed into slot canyons, camped out in the wild, went off-trail, fought with rattle snakes.
Wait a minute, that was yesterday!
Seriously though, I am impressed with the kids here in the western US(Utah and Arizona). They have much better social skills and take to the wild like a fish takes to water. There is a very different demeanor with these western kids than the ones on the east coast.
I have a nine-monht-old son. I have every intention of letting him fall. We cannot learn unless we fail and try again. It will be the hardest thing I do to watch him "learn", but he will. I have not child proofed my home beyond removing and locking up poisons and closing doors to stairs. I remember walking a mile to and from school when I was 6 years old. He will do the same. Do I worry, of course I do. But I worry more about him being afraid of trying. I will get this book. I do feel we are too soft on children these days, but now that I have one, I understand why. All you want to do as a mom is protect your child. It is short-sighted to believe you are protecting them when in fact you are giving them a very false sense of security.
This book looks like a lot of fun, but to me it looks like a cliff notes version of the Boy Scouts program. The website even has merit badge style patches you can download and print!
Any where there's a strong Scouting program, you'll find dads and sons doing all this good ol' stuff.
TO: Mark
RE: Hmmmm
"Hmm. Let's treat our kids like they are fragile, vulnerable, and incapable of making wise choices, and need to be protected by adults." -- Mark
That sure worked when these [grown up] 'kids' encountered Cho.
Regards,
Chuck(le)
[Here there be monsters.]
I had a rough and tumble childhood. I DID break a bone or two but it was worth it. Really.
As a parent of young children when at the playground watching other mothers hover over their three year old sons, I wondered if they ever watched the national bull riding championships, and if so, what went through their minds when they saw an 18 y.o participate in that. Did they ever think that to get that good the kid had to start off riding when he was 12, 14 years old?
I'm a little concerned on behalf of all the tomboy girls out there. I think this sounds like a great book, but what if you're a girl who likes sports, rope tying and tree climbing? What does it do to your self-esteem to see the things you love continually labelled as 'boys only'? How frustrating for those girls to be continually told by society that they should go and play with dolls instead? I recall once I was on the train, and a boy and girl behind me were talking of what they wanted to do when they grew up -- the girl said she wanted to be a fighter pilot. Don't you think she might have liked the section on paper planes too?
Or in other words, when will someone write the politically incorrect guide for tomboys and their parents?
Or in other words, when will someone write the politically incorrect guide for tomboys and their parents?
Don't worry.
Those kids are outside playing, not inside dismissing the computer noise generated when Insty's wife diagnoses a crisis and tells us how we need to raise American kids.
Remember, our backgrounds tell a lot about who we are, how we raise our own, how happy or fearful we are on a day-to-day basis, and what kind of character we will have when we're grown.
Hey JMS,
I was one of those tomboy girls -- did most everything listed above in the comments! ; > )
It's okay -- I recognize that actually most girls don't like all that stuff.
The one thing I do wish is that we would teach both genders about risk, courage and honor.
Sometimes I think that we've divided up the virtues -- character traits that are simply *human* -- and partitioned them off so that only one sex is supposed to have them. But women need to learn all the virtues, and the men do too. When that's done, the actual and real distinctions between the sexes end up being even more displayed, not less.
Signed,
Sarah Robin Hood King Arthur Huckleberry Finn
; > )
So I went to the Amazon page, and looked at the table of contents of The Dangerous Book for Boys. It looked a lot like the table of contents of my boy's Cub Scout Handbook. So I wonder what's the big deal.
Then again, the Boy Scouts are under some serious fire nowadays.
When I was a kid myself, circa 1970, I had a chemistry set with sizeable quantities of real chemicals in it, together with an alcohol burner that was supposed. to produce an open flame. I had a dissection set with frogs and grashoppers and earthworms preserved in formalin. When I wasn't whiffing dangerous quantities of ammonia, chlorine, or carcinogenic formaldehyde, I was converting an eyedropper and aforesaid alcohol burner into a small but functional flamethrower.
Somehow I survived to adulthood.
The chemistry sets nowadays have advertising on the cover boasting of how they allow experiments to be done with the minutest possible quantities of chemicals, which are safe and environmentally benign anyway. I guess that rules out producing Prussian blue from ferric ammonium sulfate and potassium ferricyanide. And the advertising boasts of how none of the experiments require an open flame, as if that was A Good Thing.
So I'm of mixed mind on this. It's clear there is a substantial constituency for raising boys in a world of cotton batting. It's clear that there are other adults who have the sense to let their boys be boys. I'm tempted to toss around comments about "red states" and "blue states" but I doubt it's that simple.
I just don't doubt very much.
Boil the book down to four words and it becomes "Don't be a pussy".
Rich, I will send you the cleaning bill after I read your post with a mouth full of lunch. There is a big mess from all the spray when I laughed, but I wear cheap clothes so it evens out.
4 words, the right 4 words, and really funny. Outstanding!
Trey
When I picked my kids up from Sunday School yesterday one of the teachers asked if I had a minute. She had that face. "What did they do, what did they break, did they bite someone?" I am wondering as we found a quiet place for me to hear the complaint. They are 4, and they are all boy and so they are rough and tumble God bless them.
"I need to ask you something. Both Thomas and Peter had to go potty while in Sunday School. Did they go before they came to church? It really works better if they do."
I was floored. She was asking me to time my 4 year old's shits better! "They did go before we left the house. They just like to go when they are at Church. It is an adventure."
She was not amused. "Well, we cannot just have them going potty every Sunday." She was serious! I smiled and sugested that she teach adults because she was perhaps not emotionally equipped to deal with children, got my kids and told them to go potty whenever they wanted to in front of the teacher.
She will likely never speak to me again, but she will also leave my boys alone. If you are not seeing the attempts to take the male out of boys and men you are either extremely lucky in your local environment and culture or you are clueless.
Read up on it. Maybe some of the anons just need a clue, maybe some of them are part of the problem. But it is a problem, and not just in Sunday School.
Trey
"Don't be a pussy!"
That would rule out Mr. Anonymous, then.
anonymous at 12:30pm said: "...In fact, the boys today have their own thing(s),are in great shape, ..."
Uh, I would have to make the observation that young city boys today are in horrible shape. They probably can't walk more than a couple of blocks without tiring out, and if you go out to a lake or swimming pool this summer, look at the pot-bellies on just about all of the young boys you see. When I was a kid in the 1960s, none of the boys (even the "chubby" boys) had pot-bellies like today's urbanized boys. I would also say the the 1960s boys had 100 times the physical endurance of today's boys. We would be playing baseball, riding bikes, climing trees, etc, all day long in the summer when school was out.
I think divorce has had a lot of bad effects on boys, too, as most of the mothers get most of the custody. And while most mothers are more protective of their offspring than most fathers woould be, unfortunately the boys get feminized away from "rough and tumble." I say this from personal observation, having dated a number of single moms who have sons, and the boys in those cases are universally wimps.
If you are not seeing the attempts to take the male out of boys and men you are either extremely lucky in your local environment and culture or you are clueless.
Read up on it. Maybe some of the anons just need a clue, maybe some of them are part of the problem. But it is a problem, and not just in Sunday School.
Trey: Just lucky I guess. Having 3 at once, that probably limits your options of where you can school them, huh? If you don't like the Sunday school influence, why not shop around? Maybe some of us just can afford more freedom for our kids, understanding you have 3 so you're more limited right now in educational choices.
Still plenty of opportunities here to raise your own. I wonder where you are at and if your choice of location affects this any
Men make their circumstances; boys bitch and whine at the nice Sunday school teacher. Women know the difference between a man, and a boy. Most boy-men go on to be boy-dads imo, acting out like boys themselves since they miss it. They're still rebelling through their sons in some way, since they're not yet free themselves in society.
Anon wrote and asked me: "Just lucky I guess. Having 3 at once, that probably limits your options of where you can school them, huh?"
It sure does! We actually have 4 children, one from a previous marriage, she is 12 and lives with us half time. But more kids does equal less choice in private education to a degree, and we certainly feel that degree. So we are thinking about home schooling. Or winning the lottery.
"If you don't like the Sunday school influence, why not shop around?"
Well, that is a very reasonable suggestion and is certainly an option. I am speaking with the teacher again pretty soon, and have been practicing how to discuss her concern in an open and kind fashion. It has been work, but I think I can speak with her in a way I won't regret.
Our "loyalty" to this particular church is to our friends there. They helped carry us through the last two months of the pregnancy when my wife was on bedrest and the first 6 months of the children's lives. God really came through for us in their care and concern. And we will never forget that! So we have some gratitude and loyalty here.
"Maybe some of us just can afford more freedom for our kids, understanding you have 3 so you're more limited right now in educational choices."
Yep, that is why they call it the bottom line!
"Still plenty of opportunities here to raise your own. I wonder where you are at and if your choice of location affects this any."
Well, sadly, as part of the divorce decree, I can only leave the surrounding countys if I am willing to say goodbye to our oldest. So that will not happen.
But, honestly, I do not feel that the South is a bad place to raise sons, although it is my fantasy that the West (not the silly coast) may be better. My wife and I focus on appreciating their boyishness as much as we appreciate our daughters' girlishness. I married well, and can and do trust my wife with this.
Thanks for the thoughts and questions.
Trey (who has a few photos of boys under the "Secret Lives of Boys" set on flickr.)
A second anon wrote: "Men make their circumstances; boys bitch and whine at the nice Sunday school teacher."
Don't be silly! Adults respond to their circumstances and seek to redress them! And you must be referring to your fantasy rather than the discussion I had with the lady.
"Women know the difference between a man, and a boy."
Ahhh, women are all knowing in your book? I spend time every week helping women learn to choose healthy men for relational partners. Maybe you should write a book for them Anon.
"Most boy-men go on to be boy-dads imo, acting out like boys themselves since they miss it. They're still rebelling through their sons in some way, since they're not yet free themselves in society."
I think I agree with your point about immature men acting like boys, but I do not know what you are saying about "miss it." Do you mean miss it as in miss the mark, or miss it as in miss being boys, both, or something else entirely?
Many writers talk about initiated men of power, noting that our current culture seems to lack the will, or knowledge, or mechanisms to care about or conduct that initiation. I think that there are institutions and groups that do care and can do it: The military, the boy scouts, Promise Keepers, and some other groups. Interestingly, all those mentionsd are treated with contempt by "progressives."
Trey
I have to agree that the Scouts were an awesome organization to grow up in, for very much the same reasons that have been mentioned. Like anything, it wasn't a perfect organization with perfect people, however it gave me a chance to explore and try new things and see new places, all in my own time.
On a related note (and my original reason for posting), I just moved this last weekend, and during my moving cleaning I came across my old 'Calvin & Hobbes' books. I'm not sure I've seen anything else that has represented what it means to be a boy, from the humorous arrogance and boastful quality to the sheer audacity and imagination shown.
The point is stop feeling sorry for yourself Trey and work to change your situation. Money may be tight, your divorce may prevent you from moving, but no excuses work within your circumstances. And for the sake of the teacher, ask your boys to go before Sunday school? It's not such a big thing, and perhaps they do like exploring during class time when she is responsible for more than just your sons. (Homeschooling parents don't have to worry about other people's children interferring, which is a blessing.) I am glad your attitude toward the teacher seems to have changed since the original comment. A real man would not try to put the lady down, if she was just trying to help. If you don't like her advice, understanding that of course even 4-year-olds have bathroom accidents or special needs, act like a gentleman in dismissing her concerns. Better yet, find a place that suits your family needs better where your boys can roam. (or homeschool and do the job yourself?)
"Most boy-men go on to be boy-dads imo, acting out like boys themselves since they miss it. They're still rebelling through their sons in some way, since they're not yet free themselves in society."
I think I agree with your point about immature men acting like boys, but I do not know what you are saying about "miss it." Do you mean miss it as in miss the mark, or miss it as in miss being boys, both, or something else entirely?
I mean, if you're not satisfied in your adult life and feel boxed in by your choices, you might rebel through your son. Many boy-men do this in safe suburban communities imo, becuase they are not meeting their own masculine needs on their own time.
I still think that divorce is a primary cause of feminizing boys. Kids should play outside on Saturdays, after school, and before and after school, and at lunchtime. Divorce makes more scheduling, where the kids just don't get to hang out. They are organized and structured, and this energy comes out in inappropriate places. Like the classroom.
Do you think young men in the past had less of this energy, or was it better directed? Were Catholic or military schools less discipline oriented than now? No. Just the outside energy needs were being met by the fathers and communities, where now you have often female parents only at home which affects girls and boys.
Plus, the idea that you need a book to learn these skills where in the past you would be taught them by male family members, or in group activities, is sad to me. As the family disintegrates because of our individual choices, society is affected in softer ways.
Anon set me straight by typing: "The point is stop feeling sorry for yourself Trey and work to change your situation."
I do not feel sorry for myself at ALL! I am so lucky and blessed. I am in a happy marriage with a wonderful family and a job I love. You are way off the mark here! I was talking about prejudice against boys (who are generally messier than girls), not bemoaning my life!
"Money may be tight, your divorce may prevent you from moving, but no excuses work within your circumstances."
While our family is not rolling in the dough, I bought some cigars today and took some friends of my wife out to dinner. We do not have the bucks to send our triplets to private school right now, but big deal. I am really happy withing my circumstances. And I love where I live. The truth is I could leave tomorrow. I choose not to because I would miss my eldest daughter too much and it would be thw wrong thing to do. I only mentioned not being able to move in response to an anon who suggested that I might. You really missed the point.
"And for the sake of the teacher, ask your boys to go before Sunday school? It's not such a big thing, and perhaps they do like exploring during class time when she is responsible for more than just your sons."
Do you have children? Do you have twins or triplets, or even, QUADS???? The last thing we do before we leave the house is go to the can. Every time we leave the house. Do you have any idea what it is like to take three 4 year old kids to the bathroom at the same time in a restaurant or store??? Oh my goodness, we NEVER miss going to the bathroom before we leave the house. Imagine for a moment the logistics! We are a parade everywhere we go. Again, you missed the entire point, and it is making me laugh!
"A real man would not try to put the lady down, if she was just trying to help."
Well, should I take advice on being a real man from an anon? This person was not trying to help at all, I have since talked to the woman who organizes the Sunday School and there have been several complaints about her. She has obsessive compulsive disorder and a germ phobia. AND SHE VOLUNTEERS TO TEACH 4 YEAR OLDS!!!!! I am trying to help in that I am speaking to her face to face about a concern I have. That is a real man kind of thing eh?
"If you don't like her advice, understanding that of course even 4-year-olds have bathroom accidents or special needs, act like a gentleman in dismissing her concerns."
Again, you missed the point, there was no accident and no special needs (praise God.) She projects her illness onto the children and the parents. A few families have left the church because of her behavior. She is a mess and needs to find more suitable activities in the church instead of hurting little children's feelings and pissing off the parents who leave rather than say anything.
"Better yet, find a place that suits your family needs better where your boys can roam."
I have an even better idea, why don't I discuss the problem calmly, nicely, but in a forthright manner with her like I plan to?
Giving loads of advice when you have completely misread the entire situation is interesting. Do you do this often? Perhaps your heart was in the right place, yet the advice seems more critical than problem solving, but no thanks, I will deal with this one myself.
Trey
A true gentleman doesn't whine when the Sunday school teacher tells him his 4 year old are spending too much time screwing around in the church bathroom every week, and can you please help out as a parent and see if you can get them to go before class.
Instead, you turn that request into an "she can't work with boys, have her teach adults" moment. And then you come here to whine about how your boys' freedom is being taken away.
Well some people are happily raising "free" boys in America, who are being taught outside skills, responsibility, and respect for elders. Whiners like you and Dr Helen, who see every request to turn in homework on time or save the roughhousing play for outside time, as anti-male discrimination.
You're not helping as much as you think, and clearly you are not confident in your own masculinity taking it out on the Sunday school teacher like that who is probably volunteering her time to educate your boys because you are too tapped out resourcewise to do it yourself.
If you make your boys into victims because they pick up on Dad's whining, they'll be about as free as you. Tell them to choose better than you did?
why don't I discuss the problem calmly, nicely, but in a forthright manner with her like I plan to?
She is probably the forgiving type, but I think you seriously erred with this, which probably sets the picture of what kind of dad you are (hint: the whiny, not disciplinary type who encourages responsibility)
"I need to ask you something. Both Thomas and Peter had to go potty while in Sunday School. Did they go before they came to church? It really works better if they do."
I was floored. She was asking me to time my 4 year old's shits better! "They did go before we left the house. They just like to go when they are at Church. It is an adventure."
She was not amused. "Well, we cannot just have them going potty every Sunday." She was serious! I smiled and sugested that she teach adults because she was perhaps not emotionally equipped to deal with children, got my kids and told them to go potty whenever they wanted to in front of the teacher.
ps. If your boys start to regress and shit on the floor, don't blame the teacher. Look to your own words and actions for what you've bred.
She projects her illness onto the children and the parents. A few families have left the church because of her behavior.
I suspect you are one of those who dumps their kids, rather than staying and working with a group yourself. But consider: while your two are screwing around in the restroom (all boy, right? They play with the water, tp, flusher, etc while "exploring"), she is responsible for trying to teach the whole group.
How hard it is to respect her, the classtime, and ask your boys to try and go before taking them there? Can they wipe on their own, or is the teacher supposed to help with that too? Some parents are stupid about common sense things, but most dads are smart enough to work WITH the teacher and not have to "rebel" when she makes a simple, common sense request. I suspect you have authority issues "You boys go in front of the teacher whenever you want!'
You don't see it, but it's exactly parents like you who make schools into little dictatorships because people can't use common sense and work respectfully. Meanwhile, little Danny ate his breakfast early, crapped and wiped at home, and is waiting for the lady to read him a Bible story while she has to go find out what is taking little Peter and Thomas so long in the lavatory this week... again. Sure sounds like special needs to me, probably caused by an unfree dad who can't or won't work to change his situation.
Do you have any idea what it is like to take three 4 year old kids to the bathroom at the same time in a restaurant or store???
I suspect the Sunday school teacher is learning what a chore it is to take just two "all boys" to the potty each week.
Maybe you could save up and hire a mother's helper at home if things are getting overwhelming? Don't dump on the teachers who are helping boys and girls other than your special two. (Sounds like your third one is ok -- maybe they could follow his lead once Daddy gets off the we're being victimized kick?)
I was talking about prejudice against boys (who are generally messier than girls), not bemoaning my life!
Somehow I suspect if two sisters, or two girls, were constantly leaving the class to use the bathroom, they'd get the same requsest: try to go at home first.
You have your victim mindset strapped on. Good luck getting them past the boy-man stage -- it takes responsibility and personal ownership of actions, something yours surely won't learn from you. Blame the teacher, culture, or women in general.
Just don't lump all American boys into your world, because some are getting along just fine out there. No discrimination or victimization, and plenty of outdoors play. Mom and Dad taking them camping, fishing, hiking. Of course, you have to be able to control your bowels to go. Gives them an incentive to try.
It is also good to be able to control the diarrhea flowing copiously from your soul and mouth anon. I wonder what would give you some incentive to try?
Have a nice day!
Trey
P.S. Anon, thanks for letting us all see where your heart and mind are really operating. I think I got taken in to responding as if you were a sincere person interested in discourse. My bad! I make that mistake regularly (insert fecal joke or insult there. Regular, heh heh heh, he said regular Beavis.)
Hey, you did not insult my daughters' or my wife's bowel habits. Give them a few insults too! We have a cat as well. Oh, and my fish poop in the water they live in!!!!! We are just a poop fest at my house!
Trey (on the way to the bathroom)
It is also good to be able to control the diarrhea flowing copiously from your soul and mouth anon.
...
Trey (on the way to the bathroom)
Looks like my words hit their target. Sometime you just gotta use tough love with these dumb daddy boy-men. Never too late to grow up you know, and really by 4, they should be wiping themselves. Makes it easier on the camping trips... you are taking them outside on camping trips right, and not waiting to criticize Sunday school teacher for turning your boys into schedule-shitting automotrons, right?
Hey, you did not insult my daughters' or my wife's bowel habits.
This is where your defensiveness overrules common sense.
The teacher wasn't "picking" on your boys, just addressing a problem and asking you to help in what could be a simple solution. Have them do number 2 in their own toilets at home, so that doesn't fall to her each week on classtime.
How your wife and daughter's move their bowels has nothing to do with it. She's not trying to femme up your boys, just getting them to grow up. We call them "big boys" where I'm at, lots of positive reinforcement for using the toilet maturely not as an adventure playtime.
Other boy-dads encourage the kids to crap in front of the teacher. Guess which one will be the better man, and which will be whiners incapable of freeing themselves and bitching about how the world has left their sons in the dust??
Regular, heh heh heh, he said regular Beavis.
Cmon fess up.
Glenn plays the part of "Dr." Trey here, right? He's so quick to defend "Dr."Helen, and his victimized attitude fits the couple to a "t"!
Wow. You are so smart. Guilty as charged. I am a Glenn sock puppet. It was all a sham, and you've ruined it. Actually, Dr. Helen is not Dr. Helen, she is just a photo and a Greenwald sock puppet. We are lovers.
You are really super duper smart. It must be exhausting.
Trey
I am so embarassed by your obviously superior intellectual skills. You won the flame war. It is obvious to everyone. Even myself. I will never post here again, lest you make me look like an even bigger idiot with your cogent, thoughtful criticism.
Trey (formerly Dr. Trey)
Or not.
8)
Trey
I am so embarassed by your obviously superior intellectual skills. You won the flame war.
Relax boy-daddy. It's not a game or competition -- you need to find that on your own time to fulfill your competitive instincts and it doesn't come out in inappropriate locations, like Sunday school.
This is not about you, but was a simple common sense request to have your boys try to move their bowels at home, where they can take their time and be wiped by parents, not rushed by a teacher who has others to attend to.
You are proving my point though about how some many boy-men have to challenge authority through their children. You're in good company though as there are lots of Ammerican boy-men victims being diagnosed every day. If you were a minor, chances are they'd suggest a pill to help you get along with others, such as authority figures.
Talk to an older man you respect. (If you don't have any in your life, that's sad and explains a lot.) Tell him the story just as you've told us.
If it's so bad as you say, take ACTION man and find a better program for your boys, he'll advice. Don't attack the poor lady teacher who is probably just volunteering and trying to help all the kids. Real men don't insult older ladies who are trying to help their boys grow up to be "big boys", not babies.
Then go and take some time for yourself to get outside on your own and participate in whatever activities you choose. If you are feeling more free in your life, chances are you'll blame the ladies less, and accept more responsibility for your sons. That's the way to raise men, not whining that the ladies aren't doing a good enough job.
Hope this helps
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anon, read the posts. The kids did void at home. And they did not poop at class, they peed. They are really quite proficient at peeing, and can wipe themselves even when they poop. So the teacher did not have to wipe them because they wipe themselves and they did not have a bowel movement at that time.
It is difficult to take anything you say seriously when you do not get the facts right even after the errors are pointed out multiple times. I want to accept what you say, well a little. It is more accurate to say that I am open to your thoughts and ideas. But when your posts return to pooping that did not happen, it is difficult to.
I am sorry for attacking you. It felt good, and was fun, but it was really not nice or kind. I understand that crack and meth are fun too, but they are poison as well.
I will stop with the insults. Sorry, I mean it.
But to return to your points: I think the anti-male bias is a cultural problem, not a woman problem. And talking out the problem with the lady I have an issue with feels and seem very adult and respectful to me. It is problem solving as I understand it. Leaving a church that I and my family love in a snit does not seem grown up or empowered at all. I think staying to work on the problem is the way to go so I will stick with that.
I appreciate your interest in my growth and development. I hope I can return the favor.
Trey
Anon, read the posts.
I did.
You're changing the facts when you realize it's not too manly to bitch about an older lady who objects to wiping your boy's asses on classtime.
I was floored. She was asking me to time my 4 year old's shits better!
Then you write:
And talking out the problem with the lady I have an issue with feels and seem very adult and respectful to me. It is problem solving as I understand it.
Absolutely, now you're learning! Never to late to step up and be a man. Just make sure you apologize to her, as she is likely to be wary of you after this:
I smiled and sugested that she teach adults because she was perhaps not emotionally equipped to deal with children, got my kids and told them to go potty whenever they wanted to in front of the teacher.
It's good that you seem to realize that respect, common sense, and acting like an adult yourself, not a lil boy, are what is called for here. Apologize profusely to her, and to the parents of the other kids in class too if they are around. Disrespecting a teacher is a crime in many of our minds becuase it forces good people out when parents can't act like grown ups ... ALL the time. hth
I am sorry for attacking you. It felt good, and was fun, but it was really not nice or kind.
Apology accepted.
Again, think of what I wrote about fulfilling yourself competitively, so that you don't have to find your "fun" in inappropriate places.
Maybe join a competitive sports league, or spend some time working with other adult men and women? I can imagine living with rugrats all the time, especially undisciplined ones, would be frustrating if you have no outlets for your own masculine anger. Again, take action and responsibility and don't continue to blame others? That's why I object to so much of Helen's "advice" here: she really isn't in the situation, and making victims of American boys doesn't help them (or the boy-men like you who are still growing) in the long run. Good luck.
Hey anon, there was no older lady. I am 47, the teacher is about 25. And you are right, I was inadvertently misleading when I mentioned the word shit! Good point, one I can wholeheartedly endorse. Mea culpa! Let me correct the statement.
"She was asking me to time my 4 year old's urination better!"
I feel better, and I am sure you do as well!
About the praise for talking to her again about her OCD stuff leaking on the kids (poor word choice that) I am confused. At first one of you anons, there may be more than one, suggested I move churches to avoid the mess. Now you are happy with me and calling me a real adult for talking to her about it again. I guess I will be stuck with making my own decisions and asking people I trust and who have a name for their opinion to consider. Thanks anyway.
"Apologize profusely to her, and to the parents of the other kids in class too if they are around."
Well, I have nothing to appologize to her about, so I will not. Your investment in being angry with and scolding me is neither consistent with the facts of the matter nor my consideration of your opinion.
I appologized to one of you because I was rude. I would rather leave it to you to be rude!
In closing, I feel that I am taking up WAY too much bandwidth in addressing this, well, interesting interaction. (I originally typed "interesting discussion", but there was no discussion.)
I appologize to Helen and all the readers. My bad, it got fun and then I got carried away. I will post on topic from now on and enjoy the further attacks and smears (heh heh heh) by myself.
Trey
Well, I have nothing to appologize to her about, so I will not.
Back to the baby boy routine then.
Let's just say I suspect most of us here are glad your kids are not in class with our kids. You sound like an immature s.o.b. the type that drives folks from the teaching professions because of your disrespect to others.
Good luck raising men with that attitude. You're going to have to do a lot more than read some dangerous books, I suspect.
got my kids and told them to go potty whenever they wanted to in front of the teacher.
You want to change this statement now, like you did the "shits" one?
Because that sure sounds rude to me, especially bringing your kids in to hear your disrespect for the teacher.
Homeschooling. Military school. Catholic school. They don't take no crap, from the parents either. You have attitude, pull your kids out.
Makes the school much better for those who stay and are not there to one-up the teacher who is trying to do her job by all the students.
it got fun and then I got carried away.
But did you learn anything? For fun, I like to go outside and play myself.
there was no older lady.
The teacher is the teacher is the teacher.
If you have problems with her age, or gender, do us all a favor and pull your kids.
Try a few weeks homeschooling your brood and I suspect you'll come back with a much greater respect for the teacher.
Your investment in being angry with and scolding me
I'm not angry. Just curious how your encounters with the teacher took over a post about the Dangerous Book for Boys. Again, sounds like you need a little danger in your own life instead of taking on (umph!) the Sunday school teacher. That's not a reall man, no way no day.
and smears (heh heh heh) by myself.
Wow, poop humor. Very junior high.
You write this stuff yourself, son?
Here is a web page about anti-boy tshirts. Good article, interesting tshirts.
http://childadvocate.org/1f_antiboyattitude.htm
My favorite says "Boys are full of it . . . Throw poop at them." It even has an accompanying photo.
Not that this has anything to do with my life.
Trey
It looks like the thread went awry when an anonymous coward with some sort of confusing, teacher oriented axe to grind kept commenting ad nauseum.
Anonymous sounds like a disgruntled individual as compared to the genial Trey.
Trey sounds like a real asswipe who needs someone to read him a book like this so he'll quit playing the pretty pussy. (his word) hehehehe. Sorry gotta go shit in front of the Sunday school teacher. heheh
Wow, I have a secret despiser!
Trey
Trey,
shouldn't you be spending time with your growing family, rather than getting your jollies "fighting" online?
Just asking: while you type here, who is helping your sons grow into strong men, teaching them to follow the rules, get along with others, and work/fail/tryharder/work/succeed?
Oh yeah. You're looking for the "quick fix".
Fairer to say you have a not-so-secret pitier. I pity you, if you are not a "dr"helen puppet that is...
Are PARENTS willing to forego the option to sue schools, or manufacturers, or playgrounds, or whatever, when their children are hurt in the process of doing what children like to do?
The response of business and institutions is rational if every injury results in a potential lawsuit. It's also satisfying to blame the lawyers, but somebody has to make that call to get them on the job.
Parents, it's up to us, not legislators, or lawyers, or other rule makers.
Well said gtc.
I just caught this Trey:
Well, I have nothing to appologize to her about, so I will not. Your investment in being angry with and scolding me is neither consistent with the facts of the matter nor my consideration of your opinion.
But above, you wrote this:
She will likely never speak to me again, but she will also leave my boys alone. If you are not seeing the attempts to take the male out of boys and men you are either extremely lucky in your local environment and culture or you are clueless.
Remember, apologies don't cost a penny. And your boys will think you a better man for it.
After making my previous comment on what I thought was a serious issue of child raising, I just read all these "comments" on Sunday School tinkling time! Good grief!
As a former elementary librarian, I know how a single little tinkler can set off a flood of peers who "gotta go potty bad." I had a general policy of "everybody can go" most of the time, and once in a while there was a destroyed bathroom to show for it. However, I was fortunate enough to have a potty inside the facility (and an understanding custodian), so I could be fairly tolerant of the urge to enjoy the potty within reason.
Most teachers, especially, I'm guessing, the Sunday School teacher in question, don't have a john inside the room, so letting preschoolers go to the potty means letting them head way down the hall or stairs to the, er, HEAD. The teacher can't be in two places at once! I'm sure she's hesitant to leave a whole class to check on one or two kids.
Part of growing up is learning to restrain impulses for a while for the good of the people around you. If the four-year-olds absolutely have to go, they should. If they can hold it, they should. That's just manly (or womanly) behavior.
This is my common sense advice to tmink & all the others who made a poop pile out of a weeny. Hold it, guys!
I like you gtc!
You should stick around here and comment more often.
So we've got one sanctimonious prick of an anonymous coward poster who views himself as so superior that he may sit in moral judgement of everyone else on the Internet, regardless of the fact that he clearly knows absolutely nothing about the lives of the people who he is condemming. Helen, I think it's time to expose this anon. Care to reveal the perp's IP address so we can look him up? Anon, how about you be a real man and give us your address and phone number, so you can tell us how inferior we are in person?
Correction: I have a persistent secret despiser!
Trey
Actually cousin dave, I'm a woman.
Want to come over and kick my ass? Take it from words on up? Since you've lost on that measure, escalate and see how you do with that tactic?
Sure put out my IP address(es). Not the first time, and that doesn't scare me. You're going to have to work a little harder than that to get a phone number though...
Trey honey, I've seen pics. Logoff and get that body outside moving, for the sake of your kids. You're a heart attack waiting to happen, no offense just being honest. That's just too much weight to carry -- stop eating and start moving bud.
LOL. I TOOK that photo! That is not my picture on the blog you ninny! I take the photos on my blog, I do not pose for them. But your sincere concern is touching. And thanks for increasing my traffic!
And thanks for all the kind advice, and the colorful posts on my blog too, and for posting that you were laughing at the photos of my children when they were born 10 weeks prematurely and in the hospital.
Your womanly kindness is touching! Seriously, those precious children are the light of my and my wife's lives. They are a good gift from God and frankly miraculous. What kind of soul does not recognize that?
But thanks the most for continuing to post and show everyone the kind of person you are! Keep it up. I notice you have only insulted me and my sons, gender bias much? Call my wife and daughters some names too, it will feel SO good.
And look at all the friends you are making.
Trey
Sure, sure, you're fit as a fiddle, I can tell by your responses.
Just curious. Why are you so eager to have someone attack your wife and children? You seem to be a BIG victim spoiling for a fight.
You started a conversation about your sons here, and people respond using the facts YOU provided. Get over yourself.
These are some good final words about raising children -- did you miss them??
Part of growing up is learning to restrain impulses for a while for the good of the people around you. If the four-year-olds absolutely have to go, they should. If they can hold it, they should. That's just manly (or womanly) behavior.
This is my common sense advice
Grow up, take care of yourself, and accept that it's not about you BIG guy.
Mary hugs her father. Wednesday, September 20,2006
Please stop fibbing about what you post. Like the 'shits' example, you look silly when caught in your lies. And you are quite good at making something out of nothing, as gtc noted.
You are the person whose post I asked Helen to delete! You called her a very ugly word, and I asked that she delet it and she did. And you have become unhinged since then! Wow!
Trey
No Trey.
I merely responded to the personal story you told about your sons here, questioning your fuzzy facts. Then I clicked and browsed your blog, again questioning the facts when you said you hadn't posted personal pictures of yourself. Hardly a major security breach -- when you post online, you invite people in to look, and comment.
Again you assume the victim attitude when someone puts you in your place using words. Say, should I set a plate for you and "cousin dave" to come over tonight for dinner? Funny how "unhinged" you seem to get Trey when people respond with words not to your liking.
Would you like to apologize for insinuating I was a liar above, after you were corrected? No? I thought not.
Betcha it's not so much fun anymore, now that you know you can't just make things up and blame others.
Hey, I just thought of a good one.
You could threaten to come find me, and sit on me! Ouch, that would hurt!
(hey you're right. recycling the junior high type insults IS kinda fun, eh Trey??)*
*relax. just ribbing you. I was very serious about the exercise part though. A friend died at 39 from a heart attack, yes it can happen.
"Grow up, take care of yourself, and accept that it's not about you BIG guy."
Yikes. Talk about anons with an axe to grind.
He may have been correct or wrong in his response to the teacher, however your sarcasm and provoking 'boy-dad' ad hominem is disingenuous.
But don't you see?
If you don't challenge them -- and follow up when the story starts shifting when challenged -- they honestly don't see that they're doing anything wrong.
Sorry, but his inconsistencies just didn't add up, and it's his own children and those of his children's classmates who pay the price for "boy dad" behavior. (Plus the high-fiving over the "pussy" comment bothered me. I called him on his true macho-ness, and suddenly it wasn't so fun anymore. So I'm the disengenous bully?)
When there's no respect for others, the teacher or the classroom, that is when they start taking away the privileges for everybody.
gts got it right, and he appears to have gotten the message -- it was exactly what I was arguing earlier about the teacher just not having time to take 2 4-year-olds to the bathroom every week. And can you imagine the howls if something would happen to a child when they were unsupervised for too long in the potty? The schools, the teachers just can't win until all the parents "get it". For some, this takes longer because they just refuse to hear you the first 30 times around. It's always a case of picking on their boys. I have no doubt Trey's attitude brings a lot of problems onto himself. An ounce of respect works wonders.
Superficially, all of this sounds like a big tempest in a tinkle pot. In fact, though, what has been going on here demonstrates the maelstrom (potty metaphor?) which will result if we let the original discussion of how much risk children should be allowed as part of the maturation process to deteriorate into a confrontation between what is seen as the "bad boys" and the "pussy" rule keepers.
Let's don't go there. Instead, let's think and act like grown ups. We have to choose where it's wise to let children be free to be children and when they have to learn self control for their own good and the good of others. It's not easy to be thoughtful about this issue and tolerant of some differences of opinion, but as adults, that's what we try to do.
Anon, I am amazed I am SOOO important to you. But you are important to me as well. I wrote you a little something. Give it a read.
Trey
You're not important to me, but the topic of how to treat boys in the classroom is.
When you makes unsubstantiated charges of gender bias, and suggest a teacher only work with adults and stop teaching children, then you involve ALL parents. You need to step back and ask if you're seeing gender bias where there is none.
I think gtc answered that, with a wealth of experience backing her up.
I'm not sure where you posted your response to me, as I choose not to link to my blog, and it does not allow comments at that. Nothing in my email box either, though I've not given my add'y online.
Please tell me you're not making false assumptions again because if so, I suspect you may have misidentified and written to another unsuspecting person. ??
I'll check back next week, if you were serious.
Anon wrote: "When you makes unsubstantiated charges of gender bias, and suggest a teacher only work with adults and stop teaching children, then you involve ALL parents. You need to step back and ask if you're seeing gender bias where there is none."
That is worthwhile advice. I can take that. I will get back to you later. I appreciate the thoughtful response.
"Please tell me you're not making false assumptions again because if so, I suspect you may have misidentified and written to another unsuspecting person. ??"
Who knows. There are consequences to going anonymous. And I do not know if you are the caviling anon or not. But to her, I left a gentle message, at a place where she has visited before. If I have confused the two of you, think up a screen name for yourself. It is easy to do. That will cut down on the confusion.
Trey
I posted it, and gave a lengthy response. No innocents were damaged in the process. How cool is that?
Trey
nice post, it's really interesting for me today, thx
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