Senior Prom
Today, I was reading Kay Hymowitz's book, Marriage and Caste in America: Separate and Unequal Families in a Post-Marital Age,
for an upcoming podcast and found it interesting that she stated that today's generation of young girls is a throwback to the 1950's in their longing for marriage and family. Hymowitz describes the "Millennals," the cohort born between 1981 and 1999 as more "staitlaced" than their parents and as "marriage nuts" with 88 percent of male high school seniors and 93 percent of females believing it is extremely or quite important to have a good marriage and family life. Perhaps these girls will be a new breed from the more traditional 1950's housewife, but I wonder if their quest to rebel by being traditional coupled with "feeling entitled to it all" will lead to heartache with the perfection that they seek. Are they setting themselves (and their potential dates) up for failure?Talk to many young girls--even younger than 12!-- these days and you will find that they talk incessantly about their desire for a man who is tall, older and rich. Yet ask them how they will find this guy and they seem to think he will appear by magic. They hesitate to call a boy for a date or ask him to a dance, expecting him to make the first move. Then they wonder why they are sitting home on a Friday night or going to dances with their girlfriends (nothing wrong with that of course, unless you would like to go with a guy). And of course, if the guy does not meet their requirements, they don't want to go anyway.
I remember my Senior prom; I really wanted to go and being the loser that I was in high school, knew I didn't have a chance if I didn't do the asking. I never had an idea of some older, taller guy--I was willing to take short, broke or in my date's case, a younger guy who just had a nice smile. His name was Wilson and he was 16; I was 17 and he was two years behind me in school. I told a friend of mine that I was interested in asking him to the prom--when she mentioned it to him, he smiled and said, "sure, I would love to go with her."
I picked him up in a limousine with my best friend and her boyfriend, and he gave me a corsage. He acted like a perfect gentleman and was as mature as any 16-year-old I had ever met. To this day, I am totally indebted to him for going with me and not turning me down. It gave me the courage to do the asking out in the dating world, because I always remembered that he had said yes to me and treated me in such a kind way. If I had learned to sit back and wait to be asked for a date, or needed perfection, I would probably still be waiting. You can see the picture of us at the prom--I, of course, look like a doofus and he may also, but he had the graciousness to accept my invitation at an important time in my life, and for that, I will always be grateful. His smile, and his kindness, now, that was perfection.
Update: Bitter at the Bitchgirls bows to peer pressure and posts a picture of herself and date at the prom. Anyone else out there brave enough to do the same?
posted by Helen at 6:29 PM
91 Comments:
Hmmm. I hope our son, 16, sophomore, has something like that happen to him with a girl like you.
It never happened to me, but the fact that I went to an all boys prep school may have had something to do with it.
Here Dr., I fixed your picture.
Damned Version 2 - Please ignore the above.
Here Dr., I fixed your .
Version 2 sucks. Just click on the dot with the line under it.
in the Uk we dont have proms generally speaking so i have no experience of it.
but i see theres a problem with a lot of these girls, they want a perfect man, a perfect marriage, perfect kids.. but as we older people know its not a perfect world, and if there is any problem, i bet a lot of these children will say i want a divorce (depending on your source 25%-50% will file). will have to see about divorce rates when they get married wont we
I am 33, my fiance is 30. i was never interested in marriage when i was at school, i studied, but then again i have a very low ambition, i dont want to be a managing director, so i wasnt much of a catch anyway..
but now i have found someone, i never expected to marry,
Tomcal,
Thank you--that looks much better!
That was a wonderful story, Dr. Helen. Our whole culture tends to sing out when someone does something wrong; we seldom say anything when people do things correctly.
Even if you have lost touch with Wilson, you told the story. It does matter. In recent years, I have made a point of contacting people from my past to say "thank you" for good things that they did long ago. Most don't even remember it, but it is still the right thing to do.
Funny how our culture seems to embrace coarseness and selfishness. Look at movie reviewers: you can predict whether or not most reviewers will like a movie based on its premise. That isn't reviewing; that's prejudice. And it is all through our culture, sadly.
Yet I too have noticed that more and more undergraduate students seem to be like Hymowitz's "Millennals." I wouldn't call them "straitlaced." I tend to think of them of being less selfish and egocentric.
I'm glad to see them, and I hope that there are more of them. When I praise such students for a "good deed," they look puzzled and say that it was the right thing to do. I remind them that the "right thing to do" is a rare concept.
Again, thanks for the story.
Of course she didn't keep in touch.
She used Wilson.
And then brags of it.
Bought and paid.
The ones who knew her better for some odd reason did not ask her to go.
Nice guy Wilson did go with, I suspect, because he didn't know her better. Odd story to choose to share here...
The good news about Anonymous 10:03, who does not know Helen Smith, yet feels free to insult and demean this person he (and it is a he, I am certain) does not know is...
She at least made money from his classless and rude words.
As Blair mentions, our entire society seems to revel in the coarse and small minded. To be decent and kind is "not edgy," I suppose.
Anonymous 10:03 is an example of this very thing.
I see him now, typing in those words, snickering. And I simply wonder who has spoken kindly of him? What kind or decent things he has done in his past, for which others have thanked him?
I think we all know the answer. Especially Anonymous 10:03.
Ronin 1516,
Wilson actually became an actor and moved to Los Angeles, the last I heard; I think he was quite successful and was touring with the musical "Dracula" for awhile. Perhaps he will see this post one day and email me to let me know more! Whatever he is doing, I wish him luck and success.
I had a similar experience with a college dance in which, as a junior, I took a first-year student. I had not paid any attention to her, but knew the gal from several organizations that we participated. We had a great time and I credit her with helping me to break the shy-fellow persona that was holding me back.
Dr.H, that's a very nice and really moving picture. Congratulations. Have a happy new year. Dom.
Nice story.
As for young girls of today, wanting a family life. Is it any more than just rebelling against their parents?
Okay, I give in. I posted my pic, too. :)
Strange days, when horn-rimmed glasses are edgy, and punks are conformist.
If rebelling means repairing some societal damage, it's hard to complain; but one must wonder. We have a generation raised on Empowerment and Self-esteem and You Go, Girl and Because I'm Worth It. Entitlements abound, promoted by everyone from D.C. to kids' publishers to activist groups to parents who follow Dr. Spock. How many want marriage just to escape responsibility? A few years in the office to catch Mr. OlderAndWealthier and dump it for the comforts of home and one's own pursuits? And few will call you on it because you still are allowed to moan about the awful stresses of driving kids to their scout meetings and whatnot, absolving you of accusations of laziness. Sounds nice to me. Much easier than building all that for onesself.
If the best of the fantasies sound like they come from a woman's perspective, that's because the most temptingly real-sounding fantasies are custom built for girls. Boys have their own, but the idea of instantly attaining skills that really take years to cultivate takes more effort to believe. It's so openly daft that few would admit to it so directly. On the other hand, thinking that Mr. Impossible will just happen to wander by and be willing to sign over his hard-won success to you - continuing his work so you don't have to and being around just enough but not too much - could be faintly plausible. Plausible enough that it's a really common dream even for those who are physically grown up.
Idyll and bliss and a perfect picture - but life is not a picture. It's an ongoing thing. Boys and girls who come to believe the fairy tales and false promises of entitlement are shocked to discover what every photographer knows: a picture is a fraction of a second, frozen for slower perusal later. It came from somewhere and went somewhere, and if the photographer - or the imaginer of idyllic nirvana - is any good at all, what came before and after isn't as picture-perfect.
People are fond of saying that life is a journey. They're also fond of not acting as though they believe it. Time may be a river, but you're not watching it, you're in it. If you don't want to be shoved along by every little eddy, you have to put in your oar and pull. If you really believe that Mr. Tall Dark And Loaded is the answer to whatever dreams you have (but remember what love-for-money equals), he won't appear by magic. If he's there, he will go to one or more of those who went to him. Entitlement mentality leads to passivity, and probably vice versa as well, and neither are useful to making dreams come true. You want a family? Good. Make yourself worthy and find a worthy mate, and do not take them for granted - or to the cleaners - afterward. (Dont' forget that if they came to you, then they are the entitled, if such a thing exists.) Think of yourself in verbs more than adjectives and life has a chance at being fun for more than an instant.
Besides, is anything more shallow than judging a life by a snapshot?
Recently my 17 year old son said that he thinks he will be a good dad. At 17 I never would have thought about that, but then I had the priviledge of having a decent dad and taking him for granted.
Kids these days are painfully aware of the shortage of good parents. Just listen to their music; lots of the songs are about cruddy parents and kids' anger at them.
And Helen, you look lovely in your prom picture. I had the same haircut in my senior picture, circa 1977, so it must have been what all the secretly cool but temporarily dorky unaware-that-they-are-total-babes were wearing.
"today's generation of young girls is a throwback to the 1950's in their longing for marriage and family"
This is undoubtedly a backlash against the divorce and blended family culture of their Me Generation parents. My mom's parents divorced in the 50's and my dad's mother died when he was 5. I think their childhood experiences made them great parents with an ironclad belief in family life in a way that was contrary to their Boomer peers who took such things for granted.
The thing thatis making life hard for the women who want a man who is "taller, older and richer" is that they want to have their cake and marry it, too. AMbitious women want men who are more successful than they are- peers won't cut it. Likewise for height, not soo much for age. The reult: thousands of smart, beautiful, successful women who are single and childless well into their thirties. And that's just in New York.
Was Wilson gay then?
Dr Helen: You were hot then, and you're hot now.
People are jealous now, and I'll bet they were jealous then, whether you knew it or not.
Anonymous 2:33:
What a nice thing to say. Doesn't everyone think they were a loser in high school though?
What a nice thing to say. Doesn't everyone think they were a loser in high school though?
Only those who had to ask a 16 year old to the class prom. :)
Everyone else grew up by senior year and seemed to eventually find their own place with like-minded others in the class.
"What a nice thing to say. Doesn't everyone think they were a loser in high school though?"
I think most of the cool kids from high school are now incarcerated and unable to post online.
I believe the original nasty troll poster is back, first suggesting that Dr. Helen's prom date must be gay (I'll bet the troll considers himself a good liberal, despite his homophobia), then moves on to claim that folks in high school grow up by senior year...implying that Dr. Helen had problems because she asked a younger fellow to her prom, and that she felt like a misfit.
Oh, yes. Adolescents surely do grow up by senior year. Not. I teach college, and that is laughable.
I still don't see why Nasty Troll Poster just doesn't move on. He seems to be looking for ways to be rude and hurtful to a person that he doesn't even know. And I know he wouldn't dare speak that way to Dr. Helen in person.
I think his sort of repeated nastiness says much more about the anonymous poster than anything Dr. Helen has revealed about herself.
Maybe the anonymous poster should post a photo of his date from his own prom?
Adolescents surely do grow up by senior year. Not. I teach college, and that is laughable.
We let our kids grow up, don't try to re-live our own youth through them where I'm at. Not too many spoiled young around here. I understand it might be different where you "teach college".
I still don't see why Nasty Troll Poster just doesn't move on. He seems to be looking for ways to be rude and hurtful to a person that he doesn't even know. And I know he wouldn't dare speak that way to Dr. Helen in person.
Why yes I would. If she pulled out her prom picture and shared the story about feeling empowered by asking a 16 year old, I really would laugh ... in person.
That's why I like trolling. It's good for some to get an idea of how receptive others are to their words. I accept her NY resolution at face value and think she can "take" hearing a dissenting comment or two. Plus, I'm pitching pennies into the vacation fund remember.
Maybe the anonymous poster should post a photo of his date from his own prom?
Sorry I'm not that silly.
Why are you assuming I am a guy, btw?
nasty troll poster is back, first suggesting that Dr. Helen's prom date must be gay (I'll bet the troll considers himself a good liberal, despite his homophobia)
Lol. It's "nasty" to ask if someone is gay then? A younger guy passively dating an older beauty, who eventually pursues a theater career. Do you see what I see? See this is why it's best to get a blend of opinions going in conversation.
Helen, O Hostess Mine, pray do disable anonyposting. The trolls will still go a-trolling and we'll all get our laughs at their expense, but at least we could tell one beastie from another.
Anonymous 4:12:
What is it you are dissenting from? "Dissent" implies a principled objection to a consensus. You have posted nothing to suggest you are principled. Nor is it clear what the consensus is that you are objecting to, unless it is the consensus that Helen was hot in high school and we all would have been delighted to go to Prom with her (whether we were sixteen or eighteen.)
My impression is that you are the kind of abnormal personality who likes taunting people who are unable to strike back. Helen has put her name and face in front of the the world. You are just Anonymous, without a name and face. A cipher.
I dare you to post your prom picture.
I was sufficiently shy that I never attended a prom. I did not get better by the time I was eighteen. In fact, the overwhelming majority of freshman I met at university -- whether from small towns or large cities, from farm country or Silicon Valley -- had not yet gotten better either. The exceptions were either the kind of outstanding young person who would never go trolling on an Internet site, or narcissists. Most of the narcissists were working their way up to frank psychopathology.
It sounds like, in whatever hellhole it is you live in, "letting our kids grow up" translates to "not paying enough attention to them to notice their insecurities."
The trolls will still go a-trolling...
merrily!
It sounds like, in whatever hellhole it is you live in, "letting our kids grow up" translates to "not paying enough attention to them to notice their insecurities."
Letting the kids get to know one another as kids... so they can get along socially with their peers. Letting them take consequences and learn to live together and get on. I think it's quite possible to raise mature not adolescent seniors. 18 19 20. Let them grow up.
Maybe dissent was the wrong choice, but acknowledge that there are different ways of interpreting/hearing this lovely story told here. That's all.
I dare you to post your prom picture.
I stopped playing "I dare you" games long long ago.
Maybe dissent was the wrong choice, but acknowledge that there are different ways of interpreting/hearing this lovely story told here. That's all.
So a remarkably nasty and cutting remark like
Only those who had to ask a 16 year old to the class prom. :)
Everyone else grew up by senior year and seemed to eventually find their own place with like-minded others in the class.
is simply a different way of hearing Helen's lovely story? It really is a lovely story, by the way.
When did being shy become something we should heap scorn on?
Considering the anonymity of our Dear Little Troll (DLT for short), your last question is not as easily answered as it might otherwise be.
Hi folks:
First, Kent, you are 100% correct. The Nasty Troll Man cannot abide anything nice or pleasant. Not edgy enough for him, don't you know.
And he has never, ever had anyone write about him the way Dr. Helen wrote about her prom date.
You realize all the rude, "Monty Python Argument Room" contrarian nonsense is from one poster, right?
He (and yes, he is a he) just wants to stir people up. He contributes nothing (other than some cash to Dr. Helen, which is both ironic and amusing). Easier to tear down and be contrary than to contribute something positive, again.
The snide comments, the general nastiness, and the quite false air of superiority tell us all what we needed to know about his general success level. That is why he trolls.
As for the prom, I doubt sincerely if he successfully asked anyone to attend his---let alone being asked by a decent and kind woman two years older than himself.
It's sure easier to quibble and carp (and be needlessly insulting) to others than to actually contribute anything positive, isn't it? Certainly I and others have insulted this so-called person, but the comments he directed at Dr. Helen were rude, personal, and completely uncalled for.
"Another point of view"? Puh-leeze. Coarse and juvenile are better terms.
There will be a snide response from Nasty Troll Man, but the truth does sting.
And...cha-ching. More cash for Dr. Helen.
Lol. It's like StrappyArt. You don't have to like it, do you?
What? I said it was a lovely story. Interesting details. You can put them together different ways. I don't think it's too shy for a senior to ask a 16 year old to a prom, ie. Other questions and thoughts arise though. Like with StrappyArt.
ca ching
ca ching
Everybody WINS!
except maybe poor Wilson.
So I guess we'll never learn if anyone stereotypically lost their virginity that prom night ?
What, those stories tend to bring in more.
For my first prom, I was the younger guy asked out. And I went and had lots of fun. I went to a boy's prep school, so it was sure fun for me. I talked to the (then) girl who asked me about a month ago.
The funny thing about the prom involved my tuxedo. I ordered the pale blue one. It was hideous, though I had no clue about that at the time. I get to the prom and people start laughing at me. This went on for about 15 minutes until I saw my same tux color, again and again and again.
Turns out that many of the black students at the high school had gone in and all chosen the same tuxedo: mine. Or perhaps more properly numerically speaking, I had chosen theirs.
It was an anxious moment because it was 1976 in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Forced bussing and race riots had gone on in 1972. So it was a little tense till one of the black students came up to me, looked me over head to toe, and said "You one of us for tonight" and laughed. Then I laughed, then it seemes like the whole gym was laughing. And I had lots of new friends and a great time.
It was a great prom, and lots of fun. I have the photo somewhere, you just imagine the powder blue tux jacket and you have the picture.
Trey
I have just one thing to add, friends:
PDNFTT
Notice that he has now graduated to discussing Dr. Helen's sex life.
I think that was a crack, not a discussion anony. If it bothers you, just don't feed the troll.
It would be better, of course, if the Troll Boy would simply show some manners and class.
Or post his own e-mail address so that folks can also "make cracks" at his expense and take up his bandwidth with similar humor.
Eric Blair,
Don't get too mad at "Troll Boy." He or she! is just doing what trolls do. Part of the problem here is mine, I do not moderate comments and I probably should--it is just too easy to leave drive-by droppings, comments.. However, if I moderate, it means that we cannot talk to each other in real time more or less and I have to find the time to look over the comments and post the ones that are acceptable. I expect people here to act like grown-ups and they do, for the most part. However, there will always be those who do not wish to act like civilized adults; I have dealt with many such people in my work, and it does not bother me to deal with them here. Let them be. I am about to put up another blog ad they helped to purchase, so I say, thank you!
I hope that this year, I can actually learn to ignore people's insults completely--yet at the same time, I want to take constructive well-meaning and well thought out criticism to heart. Thanks to all the trolls who have come to this blog in the past year and helped me learn to work on my tolerance of stupidity and classlessness.
Make up your mind already?
Don't thank me for the new bra accessory ad; thank poor Wilson. Still being used 30 some years later!
I'm thinking antisocial personality disorder:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder#Diagnostic_criteria_.28DSM-IV-TR.29
It's really kind of sad. To paraphrase the Duke: Life is hard, but it's harder if you're crazy.
Problem is, this kind of crazy does its best to make life harder for others.
Kent:
You quote John Wayne/Marion Morrison. I prefer John Ford:
"I really should get Gary Cooper for this part. Can’t you walk, for Chrissake, instead of skipping like a goddam fairy."
Dear Dr. Helen:
That last bit from our anonymous child-man was over the line, I think. But I respect your opinion on the matter.
Despite what trollchildren might think, I consider this blog to be your "house." You invited us in, and expect civil and polite behavior (which doesn't mean complete agreement). Most of the people add value to your site with their comments and insights.
Trolls are symptomatic of the "no personal responsibility" aspects of modern American life, like the students I flunk every year---students, mind you, who admit to only studying an hour or so a week, and who perform several standard deviations below the class average---who write what a poor teacher I am in their evaluations. Whether or not I am a poor teacher is not the issue (my overall course evaluations say otherwise)---their lack of "owning" their choices and behaviors is the point.
This fellow is no different.
I dislike boorish children, who think they are clever when they dish it out, but who I promise you whine and carry on when the tables are turned.
But as I say, it is your "house." I hope that you continue to let folks comment and interact, and that trollchildren do not act like the Internet version of Gresham's Law and drive out the good and decent people I read here every day.
Best regards.
Dear Dr. Helen:
One more thing. Have you noticed how our friends Left of the divide who are always so sensitive about language and demeaning terms seem to use homophobic and sexist comments regularly?
How do they justify such hypocrisy?
jeff-
The thing thatis making life hard for the women who want a man who is "taller, older and richer" is that they want to have their cake and marry it, too. AMbitious women want men who are more successful than they are- peers won't cut it. Likewise for height, not soo much for age. The reult: thousands of smart, beautiful, successful women who are single and childless well into their thirties. And that's just in New York.
And now this magically becomes their peers' fault. Or the ever-popular: "All the available guys are crazy, gay, or losers."
Look at what the married women have to resort to. Indeed.
Anon Troll - why are you such a loser? When will you realise that Dr Helen isnt to worried by your "critique"? If your blathering could be considered a valid "critique", that is?
"eric blair" is worried
He'll probably have us ban John Ford movies too.
Everyone knows there is just one of you, you know.
Don't you have anything productive to do?
Don't you have anything else to protect as she builds her blog with old time photos and snapshots? Lol. Maybe you can even drive the boat?
Just let us know when YOU bother to build anything, and especially when you create a blog that allows open comments.
You seem pretty brave as some underemployed guy sniping at the work of other people---and doing very little yourself.
As for your job: we all want a venti half-caf latte, extra hot.
M'kay?
Well, Helen, I am going to take a vacation from this site for a while. All this back and forth between commenters sounds like annoying kids playing "I'm not touching you!" in the back seat of a station wagon in 1960.
You really do need to edit the Comments.
anon824-
Why are you so afraid of unedited comments? Why can't you ignore comments that are annoying or you don't care about? It sounds like you have the maturity problem. If Dr. Helen can handle the trolling and insults, most of which is directed at her - why can't you? Anonymous comments make for a more lively and honest discourse.
And by the way, I have only made one other anonymous comment in this thread, and it wasn't insulting to Dr. Helen. I thought the anecdote was an interesting tidbit about her past and don't think she was a loser for asking a younger guy to her prom.
Just let us know when YOU bother to build anything, and especially when you create a blog that allows open comments.
You seem pretty brave as some underemployed guy sniping at the work of other people---and doing very little yourself.
As for your job: we all want a venti half-caf latte, extra hot.
M'kay?
------------
I allow comments on my blog. I'm not selling ads or looking to build traffic outside my circle though.
Lol. Not unemployed, self employed. Bit of a difference, but it's not for everyone I know. It's presumptuous to think all the commenters are guys, no?
Lol @ your coffee order. You are not self employed, I can tell and are used to paying $3 for cup of coffee and having it served to you. Not from me though. Let me guess... corporate job you feel trapped at so it's worth paying the $3 to feel better than the coffeeboy?
Anon824:
Sorry if this site and comment section is not your cup of tea--but there are 55 million blogs out there to choose from so you have plenty of other options. You can always head to FireDogLake where I hear Jane Hamsher edits commenters who disgree with her by changing the text to agree with her positions. Perhaps that is more to your liking.
This is a very funny thread. Funny troll. Funny responses to the troll: "Noooo! Don't make fun of our St. Helen! She's pretty and she listens to us and she dislikes women as much as we do. Don't you dare make fun of our St. Helen!" Yep. The same tough-talking Helen, gun-handlin' Helen who makes fun of women who look to men for protection, protected by all the banty roosters who patrol the streets on this blog.
By the way, I thought the prom story was sweet.
I think you and your date look adorable! I know that in high school underclassmen are often treated as a lower form of life. Social suicide to date one. But he was nice-looking and treated you kindly. Sounds like a good deal to me.
I don't regret not attending my high school prom. Being a junior misanthrope and borderline suicidal had a lot to do with it. But I did get a last-minute call from a girl - not one of the skinny, popular ones - asking me if I would go with her. Offered to pay my expenses, in fact. I said I couldn't. To give myself some sort of credit, I didn't refuse her because of her looks or lack of social standing. I didn't want to take *anyone* to the prom, busty cheerleaders included. But I always wonder whether she had to stay home that night because I said no.
Like the guy said in 'Men in Black,' That's one of a hundred memories I don't want.
I vote for more gun/hunting stories for empowerment; less "I asked a boy to prom" back in the day stories.
Do you dress and clean, and have many game recipes ?
Anonymous 2:26: birds are nesting at the end of your elongating wooden nose. Try to tell the truth, friend.
Everybody, go read the nonsense that "person" wrote. A-maz-ing.
And I am pretty much convinced most of the anonymous posts are one person, trying to be "a wit." Well, he is half right.
Hey, 2:26. You claim to have a blog, but you don't choose to list the address? Riiiiiiggght. And that also lets you claim to rich and socially responsible, and possibly female. Sure. You betcha.
Put up or shut up, anonyboy. Or go back to pulling shots like the barrista you really are.
Again, post your blog address and reveal all. After all you "allow comments" on "your" blog. Oh, that's right. It's only your own "circle" and you don't want to build traffic.
Among your sockpuppets, you mean.
Prove me wrong. Go ahead and post the address, and let us all see the wonders of Anonyboy.
(insert sound of crickets).
I thought so.
You claim to have a blog, but you don't choose to list the address? Riiiiiiggght. And that also lets you claim to rich and socially responsible, and possibly female. Sure. You betcha.
I have a blog.
I live within my means.
I am a woman.
That's all you're getting anonymous.
I know in your little world such things cannot be true, only women who operate like "Dr"Helen can succeed. Well, I've been to all the Keys plenty myself, am comfortable with my spiritual, moral and political choices, and have no wish to pattern my own blog or my traffic techniques on this one. I do enjoy reading -- occassionally laughing -- here, have learned a thing or two, and am not making threats about leaving.
Why does the idea that women can be commenting here too, and that other women can be just as intelligent and successful at what they do seem like such a threat to your hostess here, commenters? Can there only be one woman style? Is it "competition" to have other women with opinions? Women who don't define themselves by their high school dance days?
I suspect, as Althouse and "Dr"Helen are learning, just being a woman in the later generations doesn't get you far. You have to compete with your ideas, just like the men are, and not only your looks. (I'm not too bad looking either before you go assuming that. It's just not a tool I've ever played workwise)
I think most of the next generation of younger bloggers doesn't get the "boy v girl" attidude that continually is given off by the Boomer women. No doubt, being a woman was unique when you were getting settled in your careers. It's not so much anymore. Just like women asking guys on dates. No biggie. Still, and this is what I was getting at earlier, it is unusual -- for guys asking out, or vice versa -- for a senior to go trolling in the sophomore class for a senior prom date. Especially if they don't have a relationship and are not really dating. To me and others I know, that says something when a senior asks someone 16 years old to the prom. It says you didn't bond well with the guys -- platonically or otherwise -- your own age, in your own class, that presumably you spent four years getting to know and making memories.
It was a lovely story, though I question the purpose in posting the picture and sharing it here. Nothing wrong at all with it. But raises some questions perhaps, unintended to what the writer expected us to think. That happens too. Sad that commenters have to "attack" at someone taking a different opinion; I don't think the writer was as defensive, so why the need to shelter her by denying other thoughts on the matter? Is it because she's a woman... or worse, a girl?
"I have a blog.
I live within my means.
I am a woman."
Riiiiggggghhhht. I guess it would be a bad idea to post the address for the blog you have.
But you sure are argumentative for someone who is not interested in proving your own claims.
I suspect that you own many pairs of socks.
anonymouse:
Are you Glenn and Helen's daughter? I'm sure they'll save up and take you back to Florida, honey.
But you sure are argumentative for someone who is not interested in proving your own claims.
Are you military, or one of the cultures that doesn't really think and discuss? Just accepts one way and bullies others who don't follow your way? Interesting that it's so hard for you to accept that women like me could possibly exist though. I suspect when everything you've ever learned about females you learned from "Dr"Helen, you really buy into the genetic differences determine us all idea, and that all women should be pursuing "readers" like you by posting their prom pictures.
Say, where are all the corresponding personal photos posted by the male bloggers to help sell their ideas? Get where I'm coming from?
Anonymous: I'm sure you've realized by now that this blog simply has no room for people like you. Look at Helen's response to Anon824, telling her to go spend time with Jane Hamsher. Anon824 made a couple of innocuous comments and Helen pegs her as a flaming liberal. Why? Because she asked a question ("As for young girls of today, wanting a family life. Is it any more than just rebelling against their parents?") or because she suggested that Helen moderate the comments? There is no room for doubters here.
Very amusing. Somehow, I am accused of not being able to discuss or debate well, yet am told:
"Are you Glenn and Helen's daughter? I'm sure they'll save up and take you back to Florida, honey. "
This from a woman? As I said, this is all nonsense trolling.
Notice how anonymous doesn't even respond to the challenge of posting "her" own blog address, where "she" allows comments, but doesn't want to "increase her traffic" past her "circle."
There is a good joke in there somewhere.
Nice touch attacking the "Dr" that Helen Smith certainly did earn with her Ph.D. Anonymous' degree is....? Very feminist of you.
Oh, my.
And *I* am the one who is immature and cannot debate?
Sockpuppet city, friends.
So that your real name, eh mouse?
You believe everyone uses their blogs as money making devices, not as a way to communicate with a select group? If you want a select group, you generally don't work for cross links, have ads and counters, and invite readers. If we must be stereotypical, have a woman explain it to you?
My use of "quotations" demonstrates my respect for her title at work here. She's not a physician or dentist and like many Americans, those are the only titles we recognize. Sure some people use mental health professional "doctors". Or chiropractors. Or address the term to PhDs. I'm sure you know of many who don't? I wouldn't get too defensive about it.
Are you assuming all women are feminists? Sounds like it. And I am the one who is immature, cannot debate? Actually I'm poo-pooing the "boy" language myself and insta-diagnosis of immaturity for those who thoughts are not in lockstep. Stick around, maybe there'll be some real debate going on here sometime. Not sure yet if it's more a fanclub than idea blog though. Do you buy many brastap clips btw? I think the readership is going to skew male if this conversation keeps up; yet the ads pigeonhole woman blog. Advertisers might catch this, pull the woman ads, or we might be seeing less pandering to the male readers in the photo and story choices, comments and "call out"s. Women don't respond to that kind of taunting thing, I've noticed. Heh. Indeed
The reult: thousands of smart, beautiful, successful women who are single and childless well into their thirties. And that's just in New York.
And this shows that anyone that claims there's a "shortage" of women has some kind of agenda.
Actually, 12:02, you have never heard me make any claims about myself at all. You are the one claims to have a blog...a blog where you say you allow unmoderated comments. But you don't share the address of that blog because you don't want more traffic...and are just interested in your own circle.
Then you start dropping hints about who you are and trying to act all superior.
Which is why I suggested you post your blog address, since you enjoy writing snide insulting things about others---like denigrating someone's advanced degree, which I doubt you have. It would be interesting to see what you and your "circle" discuss on your supposed "blog." The blog that everyone here knows doesn't really exist.
No, you are just a troll. All you try to to is rile people up, and you don't want anything like debate, nor can you "take it" the way you "dish it out" here.
Which is fine. Go play somewhere else with your "circle."
Then you start dropping hints about who you are and trying to act all superior.
Lol. I corrected your assumptions is all.
All you try to to is rile people up
Lol. If that's a synonym for get off your ass and think about what you are saying that so often I know to be untrue... yes, I want to "rile people up". And contribute to the Reynolds' vacation fund, of course. Yvw btw.
Dr. Helen, two things:
First, attention dudes: If, twenty years on, you look at your old prom picture and think you look really, really, dippy, don't be alarmed. It's perfectly natural.
Second: tmink -- powder blue tux? How about the brown corduroy suit (three-piece, no less) I wore to a bunch of dances?! I mention that to my tweny-year-old daughter now, and she winces!
Regards,
Dude from Ohio Approaching Middle Age
Yawn. Go talk to your sockpuppet friends in your "circle." Be sure to use different voices so it sound more real.
You really aren't fooling anyone.
Or go ahead and post your blog address.
Oh, yeah, you don't want to increase your traffic. I forgot.
Anonymous infants. Pathetic.
Nobody at all asked me to my Senior Prom - neither younger or older. It didn't occur to me to ask someone - younger or older. I wasn't particularly popular with the boys in high school although my best friends were male. My female group of friends were some popular; some not so. Enjoyed the heck out of my Senior Prom in any case.
Did much better in the dating pool at college. Did much worse in the dating pool after graduating.
First husband was older but not richer; I earned more than he did. Very happy marriage for 23 yers until he died. Didn't expect to marry again but did to a younger man. Been very happy for 18 years.
So what's the point of a lot of the remarks? The main thing is we all looked like dorks in pictures from 20-30-40 years ago. Some of us married; some of us didn't. Some of us have always been self-supporting; some of haven't. I've always thought those who married for money worked harder for it than I did and had less 'job' security. My income neveer depended on my looks or age.
If girls are now looking forward more to marriage and a family, I have a feeling the boys are too. Been through the 'gender wars' from the early days. Had good male friends and good female friends. Some wanted to get marriaged and have families; some didn't. People vary.
What's the point of this post? Not much. Just generally one experience with younger and older men; being popular and not being popular.
nzbeds:
"What's the point of this post?"
The point of this post is that the human qualities that we have as people are what count--not perfection or popularity etc. Older, younger, shorter, taller, richer, poorer, these are all identifiers that to me, do not mean much.
What meant something to me was that my prom date was kind enough to accept my invitation with a smile and that was perfection to me. I hope that others who read this post who are still waiting for "perfection" will realize that they may be waiting a long time or that they may overlook perfection because of their restrictions on others. That's all.
Funny responses to the troll: "Noooo! Don't make fun of our St. Helen! She's pretty and she listens to us and she dislikes women as much as we do. Don't you dare make fun of our St. Helen!" Yep. The same tough-talking Helen, gun-handlin' Helen who makes fun of women who look to men for protection, protected by all the banty roosters who patrol the streets on this blog.
Considering the source, I hate to admit this ... but this is kind of an interesting observation. Helen hasn't asked anyone to stand up for her against the Evil Troll; quite the contrary. Yet a bunch of us males have anyway. I think this is an interesting illustration of the fact that the male mind is wired for chivalry. Unlike the Evil Troll, however, I find this a positive thing.
Perhaps we shouldn't read too much into it, though. I think many of us would defend a fellow male against an Evil Troll as well. Obnoxious behavior is obnoxious regardless of the target.
I also find it interesting that our resident pest has reacted so badly to our chivalry. Unlike Helen, I'm not a forensic psychiatrist; but I think there are valuable clues in the fact that the Evil Troll goes completely over the edge when a man speaks kindly of a woman, or stands up for her.
In fact, I think this is powerful evidence of what Helen has already hinted at: This could well be a woman. A bitter woman who hates men. I will even hazard a guess at the name of our Evil Troll: D3b Fr1sch! (Y'all understand the need for code, I'm sure; we don't want to attract the attention of She Who Must Not Be Named, if the guess is wrong.) If not SHMNBN, then someone very like her, only sober.
Dr. Helen is right. There are some things that are decent and kind. I find that, as a culture, we are very attuned to telling others when they are wrong. We very seldom say a thing when people are correct.
Getting back to Dr. Helen's post, it was her remembering something that was good and decent in her past, and a way to say "thank you" to someone from long ago.
Not surprisingly, our "edgy" friends had to assume all kinds of motives, or had to attack the decency of the post.
But I suspect that those sneering types don't gave decent and good stories to tell from their own past.
Dear Kent:
Interesting thought about the recent poster and "her" possible sock puppets. If it is She Who Must Not Be Named, we need to start chatting with Jeff G.
I'm not certain, but I believe that the person in question was forced to take down a blog and cease posting venom. If the person is still doing so...why, that might have legal ramifications!
It sounds like you are familiar with the people in question. Give them a holler!
Yes, it occurred to me that I had seen a report that SWMNBN was under a restraining order regarding venomous posts. I'm not sure if that argues against this being her or not. Restraining orders only mean something if they are enforced.
Another reason why I am starting to doubt my guess is that our Evil Troll is rather more coherent than SWMNBN was in her last postings. That's what prompted the crack about being like SWMNBN, only sober.
I really don't want a repeat of the Jeff G. episode here. Maybe the best response is really is to carefully avoid feeding the troll.
I think this is an interesting illustration of the fact that the male mind is wired for chivalry. Unlike the Evil Troll, however, I find this a positive thing.
Ah, but if the evil troll is female...
Then instead of being chivalrous to the good "doctor", you "boys" really are shutting down conversation. Other women do not have anything worthwhile to contribute; there is only one Queen Bee.
If Helen hasn't asked anyone to leave and does not want to play the Queen role in here with only male commenters, remind me again what you boys are doing that is so noble to women?
Who is Jeff G?
A former date or admirer?
Yawn. I see the shift at Starbucks is over. Go play somewhere else, huh?
No, I take that back. It isn't a Starbucks kind of troll. The sock puppets just got out of the dryer.
I am a guy and I didn't go to my prom as I was too shy to ask a girl out. I wish there were more girls like you who would ask a guy out. I am still uncomfortable about asking someone out on a date. When my sister went to her's she had a friend who didn't have a date. My sister casually suggested that I go with the friend, but nothing ever came of it.
Helen,
I'm with Anonymous 2:33. And no, not everyone things they're a loser in high school--while I was certainly not cool with the "in" crowd, my friends and I were perfectly happy with each other (and, I'm sorry to say, looked down on the "in" crowd ourselves.)
And yes, you desparately need to turn off anonymous commenting.
Hi Kirk,
Well, not everyone is a loser in high school, thank goodness. I was,however, but at least I was brave enough to ask a guy out and get a prom date! This is an old post and I have turned off anonymous comments so more recent comments are not as bad as some of these old ones.
Helen,
I just followed the link from your PJM column and didn't think to look at the dates. Heck yeah, the ambience was a lot worse back then!
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