Monday, November 27, 2006

Would You Mind Growing Old if You Were Treated Like You Were Young?

“I think inside every old person there probably is a young person screaming to get out, but your audience doesn't let you."--Estelle Strongin, FRONTLINE: "Living Old"


I found this quote from a 94 year old woman on the PBS site advertising their documentary, "Living Old" about how people cope with aging in America. I haven't seen the documentary and perhaps I don't want to; from what I can gather, aging in America sucks.

But not just for the physical reasons one associates with age such as illness, limited mobility, nursing home stays etc. but mainly because of the psychological ones: the loss of one's work, the way one is treated in society and the prejudice and dismissal that others often have for those who are older. It would be easy to say that other people's opinions of us don't really matter as we age, but in truth, they do, unless you live as a hermit which as far as I can tell, doesn't add to the well-being of the elderly.

I have always wondered why people tend to try and put those who are older in boxes--perhaps it is fear, denial or stupidity, or maybe just plain selfishness and prejudice. How many times do you hear people say, "Oh, so-and-so is just like that because they are old." I have and I can tell you that it makes me mad as hell. Does being old mean that people no longer have opinions, desires, the need for autonomy, longing, dreams, needs? Of course not. People are still themselves, just with a few more birthdays than some. Big deal.

But apparently, it is a big deal and it starts early. Jennifer Anniston is now referred to as "looking good for her age." She's 37. Mention Brad Pitt and people pop up with quips such as "he looked better before he got old." He's 42. Sure, these are stars and have to look good etc. for their roles, but talk to other people 37 and older and you hear a lot of the same complaints about the general society.

The ironic thing to me is that people seem to go on and on about how young they or others are up until about 37 at which point you are told you are old. Isn't there any in-between? And if we are told we are old starting by our mid to late thirties, what if we live to our 80's? What are the psychological repercussions of being viewed as "old" for 50 years? How depressing, and unnecessary. Why don't we just give each other a break and start treating people as individuals with ideas, interests, opinions, and worth regardless of age? Because if we gave the same respect and time to those who are older as we do to those who are young, maybe the fear of growing old would not be such a burden.

67 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'll go for selfishness (as to why people put the elderly in boxes). But really, with just a little effort you can cross that line and enter into their world quite easily. And let me preface anything else I say by stating that they do live in their own world. That's because there are so few of their friends left who can relate to their life experiences. It's a world where no one understands the need for independence, their need for autonomy in even the smallest of degrees. They have opinions on world events shaped from living through the decades now behind them. They understand people and have great insight into why people behave as they do, or if not why, they're at least familiar with personality types know how to deal with them and which to avoid altogether.
It's incredibly painful to grow old in such a fast-paced world, where extended family care no longer exists and you're carted off to a "home" that's sterile and unfeeling to live out the rest of your days as a non-person.
We began inviting an older couple from our church to our home for holiday meals. We soon learned that two of their four children had not been heard from in over twenty years. And when the woman died last year those two sons never even came to the funeral. Sweet woman. Our youngest loved her to pieces.
My mother just turned eighty and lives alone. We've begged her to move in with us where she's wanted. But it's a tough choice to move six hundred miles away or stay on the same road where you've lived your entire married life.
Thanks for the post. With more and more people living well into their eighties, we cannot simply ignore them as useless bodies with empty minds.

1:20 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Mark L. said...

I am a freelance writer.

There was a cartoon a while back that showed a dog at a computer talking to another dog. The caption read, "On the Internet, nobody knows you are a dog."

Similarly, on the Internet no one knows how old you are. Agism exists only when you let it -- and when I hit eighty, I plan to still be writing.

I am male and in my fifties. Except when someone wants a piece written by someone who is young and innovative. Then I am young and innovative. if they want a picture of me, I send them a photo of one of my sons (who range in age from 16 to 25). Or, if they want a female voice, I sign my name Marj (or even marj, if I want to be edgy) instead of Mark.

I can write about everything from rocks to rock stars, and give the editor something their readers want. I see no reason to deprive them of my talents just because of their prejudices.

So, not only are you only as old as you feel, you are only as old as your employers think you are -- especially if you work virtually.

2:07 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Mark I,

That is the wonderful thing about the internet--it is a great equalizer. Actually, in my field (forensic psych), it helps to be a bit older. When I was in my twenties, I would have clients ask often about my age, etc. Now, in my forties, it is not an issue and in fact, I think some gray hair would help. That is why I like podcasting as opposed to video etc. People are concerned about ideas etc., not with how you look.

2:14 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Evidence of 37 being "old" is found on match.com. 35 is the breakpoint for many women's partner's age preferences. As a 36 year old it surprised me that so many women, even ones in their early to mid 30s want a guy no older than 35. Based on what I've seen many women who would date men 10 years older when they are 25 don't increase the age they are willing to have in a partner with the increment of their own years. Weird.

2:54 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

One may take advantage of the way people treat view and them. If you look older you might get more respect from a stranger or a customer service representative. If you look young you might be judged more suspiciously. In the same breath, if you are dressed conservatively you might be treated better than while wearing an outlandish outfit. People discriminate or change their attitude for a variety of reasons, you can't change the world but you can adjust a situation to your own benefit.

3:08 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Cham,

If a 94 year old needs to look young, what do you suggest? I think there is a better shot at changing people's views on age than looking 40 when you are 94.

3:34 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous bugs said...

I'm only 46, and already I get blank stares from younger people when I refer to things that happened in the 70s and early 80s - never mind anything from the 30s to the 50s. Most of my co-workers, who are otherwise brilliant people, have no idea who Al Jolson or Mae West were. It's as if history started when they were born and only became interesting when they became juniors in high school.

Maybe there's more info for them to process so they don't have the luxury of filing away bits of their parents' and grandparents' culture. Whatever the reason, I think it makes me feel older than I might otherwise feel. And I will definitly not become one of those old folks who go on about how things were in their day. Nobody cares to hear, and they care even less today than they did yesterday. But not until tomorrow.

**end non-standard space-time**

3:39 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

There's always virtual reality... in Second Life, everybody can be beautiful and look young. If you're not sure whether person behind the young-looking avatar you're chatting with is 24 or 54, you don't have the cues that induce age-related prejudice.

3:41 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm in a curious position. At my work, my opinion is highly valued because I've been in the business for 30 years and, for a variety of reasons, there aren't many people who really understand the business. So even at 54, my current employer was pleased to have me since 50% of his staff can retire tomorrow if they so choose.

On the other hand, the clerks at the local Wendy's give me the senior discount (without asking) and strangers often admire my cute "grandson" (my son is 11).

So I get to be both young and old at the same time. That gives some perspective.

Aging is a natural process, and the knowledge old people have built up is often of considerable value -- especially if it's needed and no one else knows it. That's why many cultures revere the elderly.

Seeing the collection of 20-something know-nothings and slackers I sometimes have to deal with, I'm glad I have the job I do.

Not knowing is a definite problem, but not knowing you don't know (typical of the Gen-Xers) can get you in serious trouble.

3:53 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Anonymous, is that because they think you're old, or is it perhaps because you think women your age are too old?

Very young women date older men because a 30-yr-old guy tends to be more stable than a 20-yr-old and that's important when a 20-yr-old woman wants to have kids. But as women get older, their male peers have caught up, so to speak. Older single women aren't interested in guys that much older. There's no benefit. Make sense?

3:58 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Dave said...

I wonder if some American's discomfort with older people comes from the decline of the extended family. While growing up, I was never very close to my grandparents and never spent much time around older people. It's probably a bit harder to relate to a world you're rarely exposed to.

4:09 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Vorpal Librarian said...

I started getting called old (by younger friends) when I hit 26. It was like 25 was some magic dividing line; anyone younger than 25 was "young" and anyone over 25 was "old." Once I passed 25 I found that other people thought it was odd of me to still play video games and go to see animated movies without children in tow.

Personally, as a rather eccentric individual, I think there is a great benefit to the way people write off the behavior of older people as just part of aging. Now, at 29, putting whimsical and silly yard art in my front yard earns me raised eyebrows and a reputation for being "kinda weird" among the parents of my child's peers. I'm looking forward to the day when I can be wacky and silly in public and have people just shrug and say "eh, old people are strange sometimes."

In my experience, teenagers and old people are "allowed" to be harmlessly odd; people of ages between those two groups are granted much less tolerance for nonconformity. (Not that that slows me down much.)

4:11 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

thats one of the weird things i noticed about america, there are not many visible older people. as if as soon as they reacha certain age they get kidnapped by aliens..

in the UK we have a lot of older people, 80 year olds getting on the bus, walking around town. couples that have been together for years.. thats what i missed seeing old people and i dont mean 60 year olds, i mean 80 year olds, and older.

4:13 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Have you considered buying a motorcycle?

Something with cachet, a BMW RT, for instance and some hot-looking leathers.

When you arrive at the cafe, no one will call you old.

4:14 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous cassandra said...

One thing I love about the peculiar poltical crowd I run with is that it runs the gamut from the very young to the very old. Yet it's often hard to get new members because when they come to a meeting they see all the grey hair and think ooh ick, old people, and they don't come back. And these are some pretty interesting people--war veterans, former office holders and just people who have been around the block. There is indeed a great shallow prejudice against the elderly, whereas I have always been of the opposite inclination, perhaps from a dearth of older relatives in my childhood. It just seems more like family to have them around.

Conversely, I recently withdrew from a local service club because it was all thirty-fortysomethings and I was already too old at 57 to be of interest to them.

Ironically, all these organizations are so frantically looking for younger members that they often overlook the in-betweeners like me who still have a lot to give.

4:26 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Daniel said...

I took my 23 year old daughter to the dentist over the holiday. I'm 45. The hygienist asked if I was her boy friend. I love that woman.

4:27 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous bugs said...

anon: Tried the motorcycle, was nearly killed, added several gray hairs and subtracted several years from my life.

Besides, when I see old, fat guys with ponytails riding their Hogs around here on Memorial Day, I generally refer to them "old, fat guys with ponytails riding motorcycles."

Next suggestion?

4:30 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Rowan said...

Yes, in the UK, it's amazing how many older people there are. I may be 30 and GenX, but I liked it very much to see older people. I like talking to older people, and learning about the decades I missed. I love hearing about the past, before things got really weird. I don't think I've understood owt since 1993 :)

Seeing older people out and about doing things makes me hope that I will be doing the same things at 80. The US is weird in that there aren't many older people about. People should respect thier elders, and listen to them. You learn the best things from them, and they are often very respectful, if you are respectful to them.

4:40 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Milton Friedman died a young man.

4:41 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I wonder if there is a certain personality type that is more resistant to the idea of aging than others. Most of my friends are not bothered at all by aging outside of the sore knees and ankles after playing racquetball, but there are one or two who will try and look young and try and flirt with the college age cuties.

4:45 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

ok bugs, do you object to men, or fat people, or hogs, or pony tails.
just because someone lives differently, has a different look, they are.. less.

its their choice, when i am 90 i would love to ride a hog, with a pony tail, should they sit at home and vegetate, sit doing nothing all day long. or og out and experience life.

4:46 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Bruce Hoult said...

omg. I'm 43 and on my 3rd BMW "RT" motorcycle, an R1100RT like this one. I must be old.

Funny thing is ... I bought my first one in when I was 23.

Best "do everything" motorcycles in the world. For: long straight roads, twisty mountain roads, dirt roads, autobahns, commuting, 1000 km days, grocery shopping, lane splitting in traffic jams, camping, dragging supercars off at the lights (0-62 in 4 seconds). Oh, and it does about 50 US mpg, same as the average 250cc.

Actually that's not quite true ... the best do-everything bike in the world is arguably the mechanically near-identical "GS" version that has a little more suspension and a little less weather protection. But I ride in bad weather more often than I take on really bad roads...

4:58 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Ruth H said...

I turned 70 last month. I found it to be a great thing. I have decided to CLAIM it as the young folk say. I'm 70 and so I do get tired a little more that I used to, and I have creaky joints, but HEY, they move. I have a lot more information in my head than most of the people who read blogs, I've always read a lot, fiction and non fiction. I've seen a lot of great places, Its a good thing to grow old.

5:15 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous PatG said...

The comments about aging and motorcycles call for a mention of one of our Thanksgiving dinner guests. He rides his Harley (a new one every 4 years) to Sturgis, SD from Fargo, ND every summer - he's 92. He brought us a photo of himself astride his newest bike from this summer.

A lawyer and CPA, he still runs his own tax business serving individuals and businesses. In his youth, he played clarinet in a big band. And, oh yeah, he came ashore at Omaha Beach just after the first wave in 06 '44. His goal, he says, is to die at 100, shot by a jealous husband.

My North Dakota mother-in-law is 90 and doesn't have much time to come for visits. Too busy hosting her friends, volunteering at the senior center and involved with Church.

We grow 'em tough up here in the Northland. Good genes help, of course, but so does a good attitude.

5:29 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Pogo said...

Prior to 1900, the elderly were valued precisely because they were rare (representing just 2% of the population). Such long term survival was unusual, and therefore was considered a blessing from God for a good life. Now, because they aren't rare, and in fact make up over 15% of the populace (more in some places), the elderly aren't valuable any longer.

We are a society that values individualism, productivity, and personal responsibility (well, at least some of that preference persists). Old age makes that less and less possible.

Changing from a net producer, engaged in the world, to a net consumer, no longer in the mix, is devaluing.

The decline of families is certainly to blame, a condition worsened by the state takeover of previous family responsibilities (child-rearing, elder-care). As a result, ties to people are less strong, and the moral imperative to care for Mom and Dad in old age is shifted to an anonymous state. Thus, old people become invisible.

This can only change if the elderly become a necessary burden on their families. But this will not happen here.

5:33 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Dr. Ellen said...

I was a museum curator until I retired a year ago - the hands were getting a bit shaky, and you can't have that when you're handling artifacts.

So now I'm writing a book about it, instead. Age really isn't that important for curators and writers. Can't say I've noticed much social trouble from my age.

But then I've been using computers since 1960, I'm a comic-book maven, and I watch anime. So people who want to put me in a box have a hard time deciding what box to use. Keeps 'em humble.

5:52 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger RebeccaH said...

I just turned 60 on Sunday. I thought I would be happier about it, or at least greet it with the same equanimity I had at 40 and 50. Not this time.

The worst thing about growing old in our society is how you are made to doubt yourself. I've always been opinionated, but thought that I based my opinions on a careful consideration of facts. Now I see the expressions of young people's faces when I say something, and I begin to wonder if what I said was just the random spouting of some old fogey mired in the past. It's obvious they think so, and sometimes I'm no longer sure. And I don't think I'm the only one with this problem.

6:01 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Mickey said...

Ageism goes both ways and, if I may say, it is directed more egregiously towards youth.

Ask anyone under the age of 18.

Before you start laughing, the Isle of Man, the first place in the world to extend voting rights to women, recently lowered its voting age to 16.

6:03 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Michele said...

What bugs me the most is when I see old people being treated like babies and being patted and condescended to. I think when I get old I will really have to restrain myself from letting the sweetie-pies have it. I think people who have lived a long life, raised children, fought in wars etc. should be respected and listened to.

And old people shouldn't have to do what young people do in order to feel valuable. Just live like you want to. If it means living "young" and taking risks so be it. If you want to sit around sucking on Werther's and watching Lawrence Welk why should I judge? Who made young people the benevolent dictators of "Cool"? And what does "cool" matter at the end of things anyway?

6:29 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous anonyme said...

I'm 36 and I constantly get told to "act my age". Well, I have a full time job where I'm the head of a department and I report to the CTO. I also run several websites, and am currently working on starting my own business.

I have been in a six-year long term relationship with a man I really love, but we've chosen not to marry or live together. Our choice, and we have our reasons for making that decision, which are no one else's business.

I love to travel, so I pick up and go when I like, where I like, but many times to see rock bands I love. I run the official board for a pretty famous band, and I have a really good time with it.

Now, apparently 36-year-olds aren't supposed to do things like run message boards and drive off to other cities/countries to see rock bands. Nevermind that I'm a productive member of society, support myself with no assistance from anyone else, and I really enjoy it.

I think there's two sides to this. I am being who I am, but I'm not "acting my age". Who the hell decided what people should act like at certain ages? My grandmother lived to 85, and until the last couple years of her life she had a more active social life than I did, played cards with motorcycle gangs, told dirty jokes, and was generally more fun to be around than some of my friends a quarter of that age.

I just refuse to be called old. Seriously... Age is a number, and I'm going to have a good time. To heck with what anyone else thinks.

6:58 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Bruce said...

mercurior and other non-US posters: What you don't see in the US is largely the result of our suburbanized environment that requries a car for personal mobility and social interaction. At some point, physical limitations make driving problematic. As a result, the "preferred" alternative for old folks is to go into retirement communities -- usually apartment-style residences with adjunct nursing facilities -- where people can interact with each other without having access to a car. The drawback of this, of course, is that the interaction is confined to the residents, all of whom are old. My 81-year old father and his wife just moved to one of these communities, even though both are fully able-bodied (they play tennis several times a week) and in excellent health. This is, in my opinion, very muchd of a second-best solution, because it takes them out of the larger community (or at least requires more effort of them to remain a part of the larger community).

As a charter member of the "don't trust anyone over 30" generation in the U.S., which, by dint of sheer size, is largely responsible for the creation of the "youth culture" in the U.S. I suppose I should concede the rough justice of the fate that now awaits me (born in 1949) and the younger successors in my cohort. In the U.S., at least, it is our sheer numbers which drove the "early retirement" phenomenon as businesses cleared out old people to make room for us and as our working provided the economic support for the relatively long unproductive period of our parents' retirement. Now, of course, the demographics work the other way. A much smaller working population will be asked to support a relatively larger unproductive retired population (us). I don't think that's going to happen. The numbers simply don't work. So, I suspect, one of two things (or both) will happen: productive immigrant labor will become increasingly important in our economy and there will be greater incentives for "old" people to continue working.

Pogo -- I disagree with you that the relative scarcity of old people in the past made them more valuable. Rather, as I have said, the social need to put large numbers of postwar baby boomers to work made old people less valuable as workers, so they were pushed out into "retirement." That may change in the next ten or more years. I think the trick will be to put enough flexibility in the workplace to take advantage of that resource. At the moment, too much of the work place is an "all or nothing" proposition. Either you work 40-50 hours a week or not at all (apart from very low-skill jobs). It seems to me that many more higher-skill jobs can effectively be divided up into pieces. Just one example: below-college level school teaching. There are no efficiencies that I can discern from having one teacher teach English literature to 4 classes of 25 students five days a week verus having two teachers, each of whom teaches 2 classes of 25 students five days a week, with a commensurate reduction in pay. Universities seem to be way ahead in this respect, since the concept of an "emeritus professor," with a declining work load but some responsiblities, is well-established.

And I can't think of an inherent reason why a 65-year old would be any less effective at teaching than, say, a 35 year old. Dr. Helen is an expert; perhaps she can set me straight on that point!

6:58 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger TabithaRuth said...

I always wonder how old I would be if I didn't know how old I was. I mean if I had no idea when I was born how old would I feel/choose? I'm thinking 30 but that's not what the birth certificate says.

7:14 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When I was in my 30s, one of my best and closest friends was in her mid-70s. She was a dynamo, constantly on the move, always into new things. I loved her for her unapologetic eccentricities, her wisdom and her humor. She never complained about anything, always had a good story and was always up for coffee. We drifted apart -- more her drifting into newer ventures than mine, actually. I'm in my 50s now, whenever I think of myself as getting too old and too tired, I just think of her.

I think people are naturally attracted to people who smile a lot and have a good sense of humor. Certainly my friend had a lot of friends -- young and old -- and even had quite a few male admirers who were much younger (one in his 40s). The one thing I've learned about people is that it's true what they say: people don't remember what you say, they remember how you make them feel. If you make others feel good, it makes no difference how old or young you are.

And the people who didn't *get* her? Meh, who cares? She never wasted a moment's time thinking about people who weren't along for the ride.

7:22 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I guess I am not really affected by the superficiality that affects some parts of society, perhaps it is because no one I know pays attention to that stuff anymore.

Most of the folks I know no longer own televisions or if they do they only use them to watch DVD's. I have not had cable/sat TV for about 5 years and find that I am not missing anything and that extra $50-$100 is best spent elsewhere.

They hardly go to the movie theatre anymore because the majority of movies put out today are crap and who wants to pay a bunch of money to listen to someone yap on their cell phone. I think the last movie any of us can agree that we actually saw in the theatre was "The Return of the King".

They also gave up reading the news papers because of the bias. I think the last time I read the local fishwrapper was sometime in the last century. None of us could really tell you what the "latest fashion trends" are nor give a damn about any of the rest of it. And you know what, it is wonderful!

7:45 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Bruce,

There is a lot of ageism in universities unfortunately. It starts early and seems to go on indefinitely. Take, for example, law professors. Typically (not always), you must be hired between 28-35, particularly if you are a white male. Once you are in your forties or so, it gets harder and harder to move to another university. There is also a lot of ageism as you get into your sixties--I have heard many professors say that their students get harder to teach as they get older because they can no longer relate to the professor, I have heard this from many professors over sixty. So, it may be that professors get tired of trying to teach young people who do not want to learn from them. There is also the money factor. A grateful 30 year old will come in and teach for much less than a fifty year old etc. established professor. Ageism seems to flourish in the academic sector. I really hope that this will change, but the ridiculous youth culture that this country has created seems intent on keeping the status quo.

7:46 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Joan Varga said...

I tell younger women that if they knew how much energy they would feel in their 40's they'd go ahead and have kids in their 20's. In your 40's, after raising kids, you have no need for drama, you've sorted out the roosting chickens of your past, and you're actually much better equipped to handle bigger tasks with less ado.

And, if you've ever helped a teenager with Algebra, or English term papers, and know that Civics isn't a Honda brand, you're a more qualified employee than many college grads.

8:08 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry I don't have time to post a decent comment but I will mention that Ellen Langer has done some wonderful work in regards to aging and "mindfulness". Some of her research indicates that the mental translates into the physical as well.

http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~langer/

8:19 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dating Sites

I used to work for a dating site.

Attempting to divine the sentiments of either gender from the behavior of people on dating sites is like studying the Maori to understand baseball.
-----------------

8:40 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger AuntieCoosa said...

Old is as old does.

If you want to find out what 'seniors' do, check out the Retirement Communities run by Erickson (www.erickson.com). My parents live in one. They're 83. There are seniors 98 years old who still walk to a communal dining room for dinner. The median age at my parents' Erickson Community is 85. And those of that age do not look, feel, or act "old." Some seniors volunteer as mentors at local schools. Retirement Communities are not "enclosures" with no interaction with the outside world. They are resources for active seniors who no longer want to shovel snow, sweep leaves off the roof, paint the house, or pay property taxes. Retirement Communities are for seniors who want to volunteer as mentors at a local school, or attend lectures on topics of interest, or learn how to run a camera for the inhouse television station, or learn to paint or make stained glass or 'sail' a motorized sail boat in the small pond, or play softball or plant a garden, or go on bus trips to places of interest or go to the theatre, I could go on, but you catch the excitement for seniors who no longer have to mow the lawn and now have time to do those things which they put off to a more convenient time. Retirement Communities such as Erickson's keep seniors actively involved physically and mentally.

Age is a state of mind.

8:52 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Helen:

I can't get all wrapped up in this ageism problem. I really don't care what other people think. If you want to think of me as an old coot go ahead. At the gym I can lift more weight than any other woman or girl there and many of the men/boys. I can run further and faster too, I know because from my vantage point on the treadmill at a 25% grade I can see what everyone else is doing.

I don't have a problem with today's "youth", they seem nice enough to me. I am granting everyone the right to think whatever they want without politically correct oversight.

Anonyme, when people tell you to "act your age" that is code for "I feel uncomfortable that you refuse to adhere to what is socially and culturally acceptable in American society which is staying put and watching your widescreen TV."

I am intrigued about this Wendy's senior citizen discount. When does one qualify? I like their salads.

Putting the ageism thing aside, perhaps Helen should start a post about how the masses should treat the morbidly obese with dignity and respect. I would be forced to pull out my viper claws for that one. ;)

9:28 PM, November 27, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Baby boomers never respected age. During the Vietnam era is was "Don't trust anyone over thirty." Now we're all over 30 and most over 50 and we hate it. We can't stand growing old and don't want to deal with anything that forces us to face our aging, including old people.

But then again, the healthy old people often get to enjoy life as never before or for longer. I had one grandparent reach eighty. All of my children's grandparents reached eighty. I have an uncle in his late 70's that races bicycles.

Sadly, as mentioned above, changes in our society over the past 100 years make seniors less esteemed. I don't plan on retiring until I can't stand or walk.

9:32 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm not old yet, just middle aged, but people are nicer to me than when I was young. I like this and hope it continues.

10:39 PM, November 27, 2006  
Anonymous JimMartin said...

I get more respect from strangers than from family and it's very gratifying since I meet more of the former in my daily rounds. Dining out a lot the servers at favourite restaurants are like grandchildren who stop to chat and pat me on the shoulder or give a hug (the females). One Korean lady server calls me Papa San and I call her Mama San, whatever it means. They feel comfortable addressing me by my given name though I didn't tell them what it is. I guess they figured it out from a CC.

What I have found with young people is how spoiled they are compared to when I was their age, but then, they have more these days -- too much more their parents should put off buying and let them earn it. They don't know how to say, "Thank you".

I live alone with my best friend, a little dog, whom I adore and she is great company and a super companion. When I am sad she senses it and tries to comfort me -- playing ball is the cure for everything and she is right most of the time. When it fails she cuddles up and with expressive eyes says she is here for me. Thank you, God.

Would I like to be young again? No thanks, been there and done that. Besides, I'm still doing and enjoying life. There's so much to live for when you are old, you now have the time if not the money. My days are full. The last time I went to Europe was at age 64, alone and walking around those cities I thought it was rather crazy, but I thoroughly enjoyed it.

I was working for Apple Computer as a consultant when I was in my sixties and all those young Apple enployees were great to work with. At 66, I was demonstrating how to get on the Internet at an Apple kiosk at Macworld Expo, people went by in droves wondering what the Net was all about. That time it was an old dog tryng to teach young dogs a new trick.

Are they Golden Years? I don't know about the gold part, they are important years if you can still make a difference in peoples' lives. I'll be 76 in a few days and still in good health. And NO, I don't want a motorcycle.

12:05 AM, November 28, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

all i can say cham is wait and you will see and experience so much discrimination when you get older.

shouldnt everyone be treated with dignity and respect.. regardless.

or are you saying that because a person is fat or old they deserve less respect. your only 45 cham, wait till your 60, or 70 and see how you feel then.. perhaps you feel like logans run anyone older than a certain age or size, deserves to ne "renewed"..

EVERYONE deserves respect and dignity. age and size doesnt come into it. but there is less respect for the elderly today than there was 10 years ago..

5:05 AM, November 28, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is it because we're old or they're so selfish? My husband and I are 78 and 63 respectively and live hundreds of miles from any of his five kids. Over the last holiday, exactly one of his adult children even bothered to call or email to wish us a Happy Thanksgiving. 'Being ignored' doesn't really capture it! I often wonder if they treat their mother the same way?

6:42 AM, November 28, 2006  
Anonymous nzbeads said...

I started being 'invisible' to younger people in my late 30s, much to my amuseument. Now that I'm in my 60s, I can be invisible to just about everybody when I want to. It is a wonderful thing. A little old lady in tennis shoes can get away with more damn stuff than you can possibly imagine. Just do what you want; where you want; when you want; everybody just 'overlooks' little old ladies in tennis shoes. I can travel anywhere, anytime without being hasselled by men which, sorry guys as much as I love you all, is a terrific thing. The problem with most of the 'older' people I know and that a lot of other people know is that they are interested in the weather and their bowels. That's it. Who wants to talk much about either of those subjects? Those older people I know to have something interesting to say and something interesting to do have no problem mkaing friends with anybody, any age, on the net or off.

11:17 AM, November 28, 2006  
Blogger Atticus said...

The thing about old age is that you do not get to choose what kind of old age you'll have. Ailments come along--mysterious ailments that simply cannot be explained. I've watched my mother, who--if she'd been allowed to choose--would have chosen an old age of reading and lunches out with daughters and shopping. She is 85, can't see, can't walk. She is confused much of the time. Why? No one knows. One day she could walk and then one day she had so much pain she was unable to stand, let alone walk. No sign of stroke, the docs say. Macular degeneration put an end to the reading. Confusion put an end to the possibility of listening to books on tape. She doesn't know how to work a CD-player anymore; she doesn't recognize the ring of her own phone. No more cozy phone chats with Mom.

So for all those brave 26, 46, 66, even 96-year-olds out there who boast of how they are still young at heart--congratulations. My mother is probably still young at heart, too, but we have no way of knowing anymore. The frustrating part is that we do not know if her confusion bothers her. It is heartbreaking to think that she knows she is confused but unable to clear the fog.

As wonderful as it would have been to care for Mom in my own home, it is impossible. She needs nurses and she needs at least two people to get her out of bed and into a wheelchair. She still looks terrific--she started turning silver just a few years ago, and she still wears her lovely clothing. Except now her clothing has traces of her breakfast down her front because she can't see and arthritis destroyed any coordination for the spoon-to-mouth trip.

Old age is not for sissies, indeed.

12:27 PM, November 28, 2006  
Blogger Sissy Willis said...

Like the heart that loves, the old-timer who blogs is ever young. :-)

And I'm not talking 37. Try 61 going on 62 . . .

3:06 PM, November 28, 2006  
Blogger Dan Morgan said...

Milton Friedman died as a very youthful 94 year old.

3:20 PM, November 28, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

I apparently don't have the same negative experiences about age. I'm 57 now, my knees are shot because of my martial arts history, my eyes are bad but not blind, etc. I don't get the avoidance, ignoring or disrespecting that a lot here seem to be getting. Maybe it's because I'm loud and hard to overlook. Don't know.

3:48 PM, November 28, 2006  
Anonymous bugs said...

Riding a hog with or without a ponytail will not cause people to refrain from calling you "old." You are what you is, and you're not fooling nobody.

Ride a hog with or without a ponytail because you enjoy it, not as a foolish attempt to remain young.

Or put it another way: If it makes you *feel* young, then go for it. If it keeps your mind sharp, then by all means proceed. If makes your tired old carcass operate more efficiently, then give it a shot. But don't do it because the opposite sex no longer gives you that special glance when you walk by or because you feel your younger co-workers snapping at your heels.

The fact is, when you are old you are old, and there is no point in engaging in activities for the sole purpose of making yourself appear younger. You're still going to die sooner than the younger people you're pretending to fit in with. Deal with it.

The problem is mostly in your mind. How about just ignoring the young/old dichotomy and simply doing what you're interested in doing? If you're 90 and physically fit and want to ride a Hog, feel free. If you're 100 and want to learn guitar and play in a band, give it a shot. Grow a freakin' ponytail if you think it looks cool. But doing these things in an effort to "fit in" with younger people or with a society that de-values you because of your age is a pretty pathetic way to live.

As to the de-valuation itself - don't whine if your career of choice favors the youthful over the aged. You knew the job was dangerous when you took it. There's a reason a lot of people feel like changing careers in mid-life.

C'est la vie. If you can die having done what you came here to do, you're way ahead of most people.

4:57 PM, November 28, 2006  
Blogger Atticus said...

For many, getting old is more a case of c'est la guerre.

10:56 AM, November 29, 2006  
Anonymous bugs said...

I do take heart when I read the predictions made above about the aging workforce. It would be nice if older workers were considered indispensable rather than excess to requirements.

This sort of reminds me of the "up or out" policy in the military. Miss that last promotion and it's time for you to retire. I think that's a post-WWII phenomenon. When you see pictures of military officers from before the Civil War until about the 1920s, a lot of their subjects seem to be little old men. I get the impression that a competent officer could serve as long as his health, mind, and desire held out. In the enlisted ranks, there was the stereotypical old top sergeant who had been everywhere and done everything and had the tattoos to prove it. The Marines and Navy had their "old China hands." Age and experience seemed to be good for something.

Wonder if this aspect of military service will change as we have fewer and fewer young people of serving age.

11:42 AM, November 29, 2006  
Blogger Julian Morrison said...

I take the attitude that every single human being on the earth is young. Fix degenerative ageing, and a lifespan might average 1000 years, mainly truncated by accidents. Our normal 100 year hard maximum compares to that as dying at age ten compares to us. We're chidren! Even the oldest of us. There simply is no such person alive as someone who's "too old".

6:27 PM, November 29, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe one of the reasons the elderly have such a hard time in the States is because so many of us survive in body past the expiration of our minds.

I'm hoping my body goes first.

9:37 PM, December 04, 2006  
Blogger serket said...

Dr. Helen said: "Take, for example, law professors. Typically (not always), you must be hired between 28-35, particularly if you are a white male. Once you are in your forties or so, it gets harder and harder to move to another university. There is also a lot of ageism as you get into your sixties--I have heard many professors say that their students get harder to teach as they get older because they can no longer relate to the professor, I have heard this from many professors over sixty."

I took a business law class in college and the professor was probably in his 70s. I think he was starting to get alzheimer's because his hands would shake on occasion. He seemed to hold up pretty well; he even allowed a debate day after our exams were scored to discuss whether a question was unfair or not.

I went to Lake Powell in October. I went with my grandparents. My grandma was 68 on the trip. One day she invited me to go on a hike with her. For the most part it was flat terrain, but we had to climb some boulders first. We probably went at least a mile. She did really well. I'm not in the greatest shape myself and I think I have minor asthma. She also drove her boat around the lake. My great-grandpa's brother is in his 80s and he still does genealogy research and uses e-mail. Last year he drove about 100 miles to go to a family reunion.

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