No Gun, No Chance
Are schools just trying to get people killed? School security officer, Russ Kocur, at Halls High School in Knoxville was shot and killed by a fugitive from the law who was sitting in a parking lot at the school. The officer went to check out the car and was shot. One has to wonder why a school security officer who patrols a school at night does not carry a weapon or wear a bullet proof vest:
So here is another instance where a gun might have saved this man's life--but I bet that won't make headlines. Why should a school be allowed to have a security guard with no weapon patrol at night alone? Shouldn't a school be held liable for placing a person in such danger? I don't know why anyone would take a job as a security guard without a weapon. What are they supposed to do if they see a crime taking place, hide under a desk?
Hutchison says Lineberry was only in Knoxville a short time.
He had a flat tire and was stranded at Halls High School.
Lineberry has no known connection to Knoxville and has an extensive criminal history, including distributing marijuana in a school zone, breaking and entering and assault and battery.
Police say officer Kocur, who was unarmed and not wearing a bullet proof vest, was shot by a .22 caliber revolver, probably after discovering the suspect had a gun.
"The guard was struck one time in the upper back...between the liver and the heart," says Knox County Sheriff Tim Hutchison.
So here is another instance where a gun might have saved this man's life--but I bet that won't make headlines. Why should a school be allowed to have a security guard with no weapon patrol at night alone? Shouldn't a school be held liable for placing a person in such danger? I don't know why anyone would take a job as a security guard without a weapon. What are they supposed to do if they see a crime taking place, hide under a desk?
posted by Helen at 8:13 AM
43 Comments:
What makes it worse is that a .22 doesn't even require a bulletproof vest to stop it; there are stories of .22 bullets being stopped by as little as a thick sweater. (There was an old friend of the family who was on the receiving end of a .22 once while in the Army but not on duty— and his regular jacket absorbed most of the force.)
But this falls in the same category as 'responsibility without authority'— in other words, someone is responsible for something but isn't allowed the tools to do the job properly. Yeesh.
In 1982, I worked as a security guard while I was waiting for the Air Force red tape to unwind, so I could go in as an officer. I had to baby sit an abandoned school, the central garbage depot and the town hall.
The first place, I had a stick - it was a 1-1/2" dowel, 3 feet long. The second place, I had the smell. The third place was lite up all night and locked up tight.
An ex-cop ran the company, so anyone who wanted to could get a gun easily, even though it was Rochester NY. (Tight gun laws, even then). Of course, he discouraged us from getting them.
We might have it taken away and get shot with it......
I've worked unarmed security for more than two years now; it's a great job for college students who need to support themselves due to the flexible hours. I seem to be the exception, though, as many of our guards are retirees supplementing their income.
There are no physical requirements, and our guards do not have the training or equipment to use force. We don't even have our fists at our disposal - the company will hang you out to dry unless you can show that you or someone else was literally backed into a corner. I always joke that they don't pay us enough to stand and fight. On the guard's end, armed jobs usually pay half-again to twice as much.
We aren't really responsible for physically securing the site - we're there to call the police and run away, and hopefully deter stupid criminals. As for a vest? Our managers would laugh at you; I feel lucky if I'm given a flashlight and access to a bathroom. Most clients just want a firewatch and a discount on their insurance, and don't really have the need or budget for armed guards.
Unarmed security companies (especially near cities) have a hard time finding enough decent people, so they'll often take anyone who can pass the background check. This leads to a very high rate of turnover. They'll stuff any old scruffy weirdo into a cheap polyester uniform, show him a 20 minute video, and send him out to work.
Interesting posts. So really "security guard" is a misnomer. "Hall monitor" might be more appropriate. Here in Middle Tennessee the School Resource Officers are police, guns and badges oh my!
Calling the unarmed and untrained security "guards" is obviously like calling my 12 year old daughter a major league baseball player. But even she would get a bat when it was her turn to face the pitcher.
Trey
From an article in the Knoxville News Sentinel: "Russ Oaks, spokesman for Knox County schools, said 24 of the 35 members of the security division are licensed as armed security guards." While Kocur was not armed, it would appear that he could have been had he chosen to obtain a license.
The same article indicates that Kocur had a bulletproof vest given him by a Knox County sheriff's deputy who was also an employee at Halls High School. Had he chosen to wear the vest, Kocur would likely be alive today. That, of course, does not dismiss the fact that the school systems do not provide their security officers with vests, which I think is irresponsible.
As someone who at one time supervised a contract security force at two large industrial facilities (in the auto industry), this incident highlights some of the problems with using security personnel. Many companies (or other organizations) do indeed only want someone to be a fire watch and to monitor such things as heating, air-conditioning, etc. and to act as a deterent to vandalism by their mere presence. Our guards, for example, were told over and over that they were "eyes and ears" only, and that their function was to call the police if anything suspicious occurred. However, on more than one occasion they pursued trespassers, putting themselves in exactly the kind of situation that could have ended badly. It's difficult to overcome the natural inclination of bored guards (especially younger guys) to investigate rather than report unusual situations. Armed guards are expensive and can be a liability, especially in this day and age. Another company I worked for had an armed guard shoot and kill a striker in an incident that caused that company to never again even consider the use guns by security personnel. The real answer, I think, is to use more monitoring devices like cameras, but this requires capital expenditures that are less likely to be approved than the expense item of a guard. Dumb, but true.
Actually, a lot of "bulletproof" vests, primarily the older ones, but ones capable of stopping a significantly more powerful round, are defeated by the standard .22 Long Rifle cartridge (which despite its "Rifle" name is what almost all .22 pistols shoot). The small bullet essentially "worms" its way between the coarse kevlar fibers. That said, I agree that security guards should have guns and vests, especially if they are working outside at night. (Arguably, indoor mall guards deterring shoplifters might not need them, and open-carry guns might scare customers.)
Security guards do not exist in these places for security. The are merely pawns used to limit liability.
Look at buildings where guards must buzz you in, but the guards are unarmed. They are the canaries in the coalmine, their job is to show that "we have security", but in such a way that the organization is not liable for something that an armed guard may do, like actually shoot a perp.
Helen,
I like what P.J. O'Rourke said about the Guardian Angels in 1980s New York; it applies to security guards too (I'm paraphrasing):
In a lawfull society, having unarmed vigilantes would be unnecessary. And in a truely lawless society, it would be suicidal.
Only in America do we find this blend of craziness.
BTW, remember what always happened to security guards on Star Trek TOS?
Schaffman:
Yes, the security guards were always some expendable buffoon who runs to investigate when Captain Kurt says, "I wonder what's going on?" Next thing you know, the guard is dead and the characters are alerted to the danger.
Unarmed security guards... the true "Red Shirts" of our society.
Sorry to sound a discordant note, but why exactly would a school expect to need armed guards at night? This is obviously a freak incident, not one that could be predicted. What sort of intruders does a school usually expect at night? Vandals; kids from the school; maybe someone wanting to steal equipment. Surely a guard can handle those without a gun. The idea that every guard needs to carry a gun, just in case an armed fugitive happens to break down in the car park seems bizarre to me.
I did the "unarmed security" gig for a while, and I agree with the poster above who said the "guard" is there as a firewatch and to call the cops if something happens. My posts were a warehouse, an auto dealership, and an aprtment building.
At the warehouse, I walked around the place once an hour, and kept an eye on the camera that covered the road leading up to the place. I also got a lot of studying done.
At the auto dealership, I walked the perimeter once an hour, checked to make sure all the cars on the lot were locked up (salesmen left keys in cars frequently), and served as a visible presence to deter auto thieves from driving up and stealing a car. Several times I saw cars pull up late at night, and when they saw my flashlight, they'd drive away.
At the apartment building, I handled packages at the front desk, watched for "suspicious persons entering the building" (people coming in to buy drugs from a suspected dealer), checked for "safety hazards" every hour (mostly broken glass around the pool, or people screwing in the sauna), and watched the parking-lot cameras to give warning if I saw someone breaking into a resident's car.
I would never have dreamed of initiating any kind of conflict, and I always had a clear plan to call the cops while getting the hell out of Dodge if anything untoward happened. That was the guard company's policy, and I strongly supported it. We were just there to be eyes and to call 911.
-- Michael N.
Milhouse,
Well, since you feel nothing much happens at schools at night, why have a security guard at all? Perhaps extra patrols by the police would be warranted instead.
I agree with Trey. School districts should call them hall monitors instead of security guards. At least then prospective "hall monitors" will know what they are getting into, and students and parents might realize how little security there is in most schools.
The current corporate thought is if the guard has a gun,the bad guys will shoot the guard with it. Maby shoot and kill a bystander. That opens the employer of the guard to have to possibly pay an insurance claim
Ethanthom,
So, just like the schools when it comes to mass murderers, it is best to cover your ass no matter what so that if innocent people are killed, you don't look like you are to blame. Oh darn, just another freak incident--no need to change a thing.
This is not an isolated incident. Just last month from the Great State of Virginia:
http://www.wtkr.com/Global/story.asp?S=5532196&nav=ZolHbyvj
A few decades ago, I spent more than a year as a security guard with Pinkerton's in Nashville while working my way thru grad school. I served a variety of posts -- country clubs, banks (after hours), construction sites, manufacturing plants, hospitals, malls etc. At some sites, I was armed, at others, not.
I preferred not carrying the pistol. When you as a guard carry a gun, you are expected to use it under well-defined circumstances. You are expected to control the situation. If you are unarmed, your duty is to call in whatever legal assistance is needed.
On one post I was shot at -- people on a picket line fired a couple of rounds into the loading dock I was guarding. A few nights later, a striker was shot and killed on the line.
Had I been armed, the situation would have been even more provocative, possibly fatally so. The presence of three other guards (also unarmed) was the factor that kept me safe and allowed us to report the incident to law enforcement authorities.
While it can be spooky to walk the outside of a shopping mall at 3 a.m., in general unarmed is the best way to go.
A couple points;
Commenter b. durbin is likely conflating the effectiveness of .22 caliber ammo with the comparatively anemic .25 round. The .22 is commonly used by military spec-for types as a battlefield "silenced" weapon because of it's effectiveness; the .25 is widely dispised by anyone who's taken the time to examine it.
I too have worked as a security guard in the past (armed, unarmed, plainclothes and undercover). Security companies are intended to fill the societal niche between law enforcement (who respond to crime scenes for the purpose of investigation and subseqient prosecution) and private citizens guarding themselves and their property (corporations and public property having neither the rights nor capabilities of actual people). The influence of civil and criminal liability as well as the activism of security company owner(s) and clients have contributed to the present climate in which security guards work, as have the often unreasonable expectations of the general populace. Dr Helen's (and others) comments here being a prime example.
Security guards are not officers of the court; the only "authority" they have is that held by any other private citizen of the country. For them to assert that authority while on the job would place their employer and client at civil and criminal liability right alongside themselves. Armed guards may only fire their weapons in defense of the lives of themselves or immediate others (my recollection is that "others" must be physically present and at immediate, direct threat, IOW not simply on the property). Security guards have no authority to arrest anyone or remove them from a location (there are exceptions to this) but must call law enforcement to do so. Finally, security guards also serve as a public representative of both their employer and client, neither of whom is likely to desire a confrontational approach to interaction with others in their name.
Specific to Mr. Kocur, he apparently declined to wear the protective gear reportedly made available to him (I can find no mention as to type so can't offer opinion as to it's effectiveness which varies widely). Further, the report makes quite clear to me that he was shot going away from the vehicle, it seems to be assumed that he was fleeing or otherwise attempting to make an escape from a threat. Since directly attacking or running to the rear of a vehicle offers a much greater range of survival responses to a threat, it appears to me at least that he was murdered after enquiring to offer assistence to a distressed motorist. Something that could occur to anyone in any parking lot in the country. His possession of a firearm wouldn't have prevented his being shot in that circumstance and only the best (ie: most expensive) of body armor would likely have protected him from injury (which presumes his killer wouldn't have followed up with a then obviously necessary head shot).
Being a scurity guard was a mostly physically undemanding job, but the moral/ethical quandries always bothered me. Fortunately, I quickly discovered that I make much more money working inside the facility then I ever could expect to guarding it and made the switch as soon as I could.
"Why should a school be allowed to have a security guard with no weapon patrol at night alone?"
Because:
The administrators are incredibly stupid, and
Guns are evil, and
Everyone hopes nothing bad will ever happen.
Of course, when something like this does occur, it can be swept under the rug as a "freak incident," then back to business as usual. Some here fail to understand that the need for a gun in most environments (like a home or school) is extremely rare, but there is no substitute in the rare instance when one is desperately required. A gun is a means of last resort when innocent life is threatened. And yes, I strongly advocate training in the proper handling of firearms.
BD the Rent-a-Pig,
Here's how New York State defines security guards:
* protection of persons and/or property from harm, theft, and/or unlawful activity;
* deterrence, observation, detection, and/or reporting unlawful or unauthorized activity;
* street patrol service;
* response to, but not installation or service of, a security system alarm.
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/lcns/guardfaq.html#a
Even if everything you say is true, your definition of a security guard is limited to the observation and reporting functions. That's fine but someone should make that clear to the students and parents who, like me, probably think a security guard is also there to protect.
We might have it taken away and get shot with it......
I you allow that to happen, you ought to be shot.
Dr Helen: I didn't say nothing much happens at schools at night, I said exactly what I think does happen at schools at night, or would happen if there were no guard: vandals; kids; and the occasional burglar looking to steal equipment. None of these are likely to be armed, so there should be no need for a gun to see them off.
Most security guards I've ever seen are not armed, and they do a valuable job. It is not the job of a security guard to take on dangerous felons, and nobody in their right mind expects one to. If a site is likely to attract serious criminals who are likely to come armed, such as a jeweler's or a bank, then having armed guards makes sense.
Actually, few people are ever shot with their own gun after it is taken away. It used to happen to police officers because they carry openly but are restricted as to use, but modern training and equipment has greatly reduced this. Some years back a writer for Ms Magazine did some research, looking for examples of this happening to women. I suspect she was disappointed not to find ant.
There are multiple levels of security guards. Armed guards are available... at a price. Persons with a clean police record and the skill to qualify on the range don't work for minimum wage. And, for the most part, weapons are not welcome or necessary in most situations. I suspect the presence of an armed guard, even after hours, would have sent the school's PTA into conniptions. I suspect the guard's presence was deterrent enough for most problems expected at the school (vandalism, ect.), and the guard was to call the police if anything else happened. Would a different job title help? Caretaker? Attendant? Night Custodian?
Most of the guards I meet on a daily basis (trucking) are responsible for logging traffic in and out of a gate. Sometimes they're also called upon to walk the facility yard. They do the grunt work. If something happens, they make a report. If there's trouble, they call the police. Not being certified peace officers, they don't have any more authority than any citizen. No guns. Good thing, too. Many of the folks I see in this position are beyond retired, and even if they had the upper-body strength required to raise a weapon, they would not be able to aim or withstand the recoil.
Armed guards? Brinks and Pinkertons come to mind. But the favorite option for those needing armed security is to hire off duty police officers. State certified, they have arrest powers, usually have their radios with them, are required by most states to have their sidearm with them, and often have marked cruisers available in their off duty hours. (I've known Police Officers to hold 3 part-time jobs, drive a demo from a car dealership, and live in an free apartment. You didn't think they were getting by on their Department salaries alone, did you?) That level of security is available, but is probably out of you school's budget range.
Are schools just trying to get people killed
Ow. That knee jerk was so hard it kicked me through the screen. As so many have written to say, security guards without guns are not some monster creation of anti-gun-for-show school boards. They are found touring store floors and parking lots everywhere across the nation.
I don't know how common it is for murderous sociopaths to hang out in school parking lots. But if any rules should change here, it's what a security guard does when he spots a vehicle that doesn't belong in the lot after hours. If criminal activity is suspected, a call to real police with real guns would be what I would want from an unarmed security patrol.
In this case, the guard's actions probably amounted to no more than a tap on the window to ask if everything was ok, then BLAAMMMO. Because the murdering fiend was basically a nutjob bent on killing, at the the earliest opportunity, anyone in his way.
Will Brown said...
A couple points;
This is an extremely infortunate incident and my feelings go out to the victim's family.
I would not take a job as an unarmed guard in the middle of the night, but I dont know all of the circumstances.
Will, I agree with you about the effectivenes of the .22 long rifle, and had heard it is used by the military as a silenced round; altough I am infamiliar with what weapon they use. The "worming" phenomenon is well known.
As a self defense weapon I think they are great. First of all, many perps will flee at the sight of any gun (obviously the preferred outcome)I was out praticing with my S&W 317 Airweight (10.5 oz) yesterday and can do head shots all day long at 10 yards. With a 2 inch barrel it is extremely loud and intimidating (a second chance to scare tham off). And as far as penetrating power, at 10 yards, with CCI high velocity 40 grain bullets it goes through 2 sheets of pressure treated 3/4 inch plywood and stops in the third.
A little off the subject, but some self defence philosophy: If a perp goes to the trouble of dressing in body armor before attacking you, it is probably very well planned, you are not just a "victim of opportunity". In that case you have bigger problems than any handgun will take care of. This is where the whole concept of threat identification and avoidance comes in.
Unfortunately for victims, who are usually the first to perceive these threats, obtaining protection from the law can be a long and complicated process, as is the case with stalking.
Why should a school be allowed to have a security guard with no weapon patrol at night alone?....
A clue to the answer to your question is found in the second sentence following it:
I don't know why anyone would take a job as a security guard without a weapon
Why? Because someone is willing to take the job under those conditions. It may be stupid, but then, in this country, people have a right to be stupid.
I preferred not carrying the pistol. When you as a guard carry a gun, you are expected to use it under well-defined circumstances. You are expected to control the situation. If you are unarmed, your duty is to call in whatever legal assistance is needed.
This brings to mind Kevin Spacey's line in American Beauty where he says "I'd like a position with as little responsibility as possible."
you have no clue about kocur.. its not the schools fault for him not havin a gun .. nothin like this had ever happen at our school if kocur did have a gun .. it wouldnt of really helped... he was shot from behind,so he didnt even see it comming.and you say a .22 isnt dangerous .. then WHY IS KOCUR DEAD!..all i know is some people need to think more about things before they just start sayin stuff ...
Niccolo Machiavelli remarked "The unarmed man is worthy of contempt." It took a while, but every time I read about these sorts of incidents, the wisdom of it comes home....
Myself along with 6 other security officers working at a private college where it takes the local police atleast 20 min. to arrive, are all unarmed. Myself and fellow officers work 7 days a week 365 days a year. We patrol by foot and vehicle. We respond to anything from fights, stolen property, drugs, auto accidents, medical emergency's, student and faclity asst., traffic stops . Not only are we the only protection for the college campus, but we are also the protection of the community in any emergency. Our number is the first number that is dialed in the event of an emergency. NOT 911. We contact 911 when needed. Us officers do carry pepper foam, ASP batons, handcuffs and flashlights, which in some cases is enough to handle a situation, but when dealing with drugs and people who use drugs is a scary time. Anymore these day people will do just about anything to not get caught. Being unarmed guards and a topic that us officers talk about in office on a regular basis. 3/4 of us have our license to carry permit. And once the college found out that some officers do pack, it's been game of ever since. They have been considering to put signs on all building stating "no weapons". They now have also been considering taking our ASP batons and possibly our pepper foam away from us. These two personal protection weapons have not been used in about 6 years if not longer. The higher up staff look at the students and community as all good, but in a sense like that, they are wrong. When there are drugs involved there are weapons. so on that note I do think that security guards should be armed, and if you think about it, when they know what there up against is armed as well as the crimmial then there chances or doing something stupid is less likily.
Helen, I think hiding under a desk is exactly what they're expected to do. That, and call 911.
Problem: You give a guy a uniform, a badge, a Sam Brown belt, a nightstick, maybe a radio, and call him a "guard," he thinks he's supposed to...you know, guard stuff. Something happens, he wants to do something about it. Trouble is, unless he's an off-duty or former police officer, he'll probably do the wrong thing.
Better if we dressed them like janitors, gave them cell phones, and called them "nightwatchmen" or "caretakers" or "after-hours customer assistance specialists." That way, nobody will get hurt.
bgs,
Now there is an idea. I think if "security guards" do not carry a weapon and have no means to do anything if they confront a bad situation, it is probably best to be trained not to approach a parked car or do anything about any type of vandalism etc. except to report it and do so from afar.
I wholeheartedly agree with you. An unarmed security guard is unable to do anything to protect themself in the event that they are called upon to do their job as a security officer.
You know, i've been doing the unarmed security guard gig for awhile myself. I'm only 18 years old and can honestly say this is a great college occupation, but at the same time that its a joke.
I mostly guard car dealerships and houses being built, but seriously though, 50% of the time i wonder why im eve there.
I never actually do anything and 80% of the time i actually ditch my post and go home to study or screw around.
Hell even if i saw something happen in the short while that im ACTUALLY there i wouldn't do anything, i'd be suprised if i even called the cops. or if i was even awake too.
However though, with that being said i think it would be nice to be given a gun or maybe some training or a vest. so that way when some crazy idiot breaks in and see's me and pulls a gun on me i wont be a lousy sitting duck and i could actually maybe defend myself.
I'm probably the only woman who has posted to this forum.
I work at a security job..will not name the college. And a gun will not be needed in the particular building I prowl in. Plus I don't get paid enough to pack heat. Yet the cost of the uniform/etc. more than half my monthly part time salary.
Worst thing that happened there was a door handle pulled off.
I'm probably the only woman who has posted to this forum.
I work at a security job..will not name the college. And a gun will not be needed in the particular building I prowl in. Plus I don't get paid enough to pack heat. Yet the cost of the uniform/etc. more than half my monthly part time salary.
Worst thing that happened there was a door handle pulled off.
I'm a woman that just started an unarmed security job at a juvenile facility and it's out in the middle of nowhere, woods all around where anyone could hide and there are hardly any lights at all. I can honestly say, I'm scared to death. Very dark and desolate. Anyone could hide in those woods and knock me in the head as I'm suppose to patrol the whole, dark, area, alone, every hour. Do I keep this job or ditch it?
Ok so he didn't carry a gun but he was a strong man I knew him and it doesn't make it right for someone to just shoot someone...he truely loved his job he was in the second stage of his training and he also wanted to become a sheriff. He always told us that he would take a bullet for us and he did...becuase he loved us
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