Wednesday, September 13, 2006


A school shooting in Montreal--this time at a college campus.

Update: Sari Stein has more on the shooting here (Hat tip: Instapundit). What I found most interesting is that Canadians seem to have no realization that violent crime exists:

Just to give you an idea of how uncommon it is to hear gunshots in Montreal, CBC is interviewing one student who said she was in the other cafeteria at the time when they first heard the shots, and that for about 10 minutes afterwards, people just continued doing whatever they were doing before, because nobody actually realized they were gunshots until someone ran into the room screaming at them to get out. She said everyone assumed it was a joke, or fireworks, or just a random loud noise.

This same lack of awareness and realization of danger was apparent when a madman opened fire in the 1989 massacre at École Polytechnique at the University of Montreal :

Satisfied, the rampage killer returned to the escalator and went down. His next stop: the first floor cafeteria, where more than 100 people had gone for dinner. Students running through had urged them all to flee, but many had dismissed the warnings as last-day pranks. Those few who decided to leave did so quickly. Many remained and continued with their meal or indulged in the free wine offered that day to celebrate the term ending. Around them hung signs wishing them a Happy New Year a year that some would never see. For them, it would be their last drink.

Maybe it's time Canadians opened their eyes and started providing instructions to students on how to respond in an emergency because sitting there finishing your lunch is as clueless as it gets.

Update: Here is a link to the killer's webpage at Notice on the page that his dislikes include "Animal Cruelty, anyone who supports the American Government, capitalists, Republicans, racists" and just about everybody else. I wonder where his life and mind took such a wrong turn to be so full of hate?


Anonymous Anonymous said...

Alright, I'm going to go out on a limb here, and I know I'm to piss a few people off. That's not my intent; my intent is to see a rational discussion as to why my hypothesis is wrong.

These shootings were unheard of prior to about ten years ago. Yeah, there were murders, and there have always been nutcases like the sniper in Texas who started shooting from a bell tower sometime in the seventies. And there have been serial murderers along the way, too.

But these school shootings are different. These are virtually all young men, all shooting more or less at random, and all events occurring at schools. There's Lepin, Columbine, and a host of others. And they all seem, to me at least, to be lashing out at something they either can't identify or don't otherwise have the power to change.

Is it possible that these boys are feeling so overcompressed by the feminization of their environment that this is the backlash?

Now, I can hear the feminists here laughing and seething already. But go talk with any male high school or college student about some of the specific aspects of the environment they're compelled to yeild to, normal guys, not nutcases, and you'll find that they're quite dismissive of all of them. Ask them how they feel about things like "conflict resolution" and "diversity" and the repression of competitive activities. And while they're uncomfortable taking abou the specifics, if you take some time and dig a little, you can get them to be specific about it.

I'm not tryin' to start a fight or nuthin'. Just trying to get the discussion going for long enough to feel like the topic got a good examination.


5:20 PM, September 13, 2006  
Blogger segacs said...

Thanks for the link.

I take your point about the danger of cluelessness, but most of us tend to see it a little differently. Rather than accepting the fact that we should learn how to deal with such incidents, most people here seem to believe that we shouldn't have to deal with them because we shouldn't accept that they happen in the first place.

This may not be the ideal solution, but neither is accepting violent crime as a regular occurrance. We reject the notion that we should "get used to it", and instead, we believe that we can take steps to, if not eliminate it, at least reduce it.

Look for tougher gun laws to be tabled almost immediately, and for widespread public calls to get rid of the guns. And you won't see students arming themselves in "defence" either; most people will react to this with an enhanced aversion to guns and violence, if anything. As a psychologist, I'm sure you can understand this.

10:03 PM, September 13, 2006  
Anonymous Vicki Small said...

Sounds like Canadians are as oblivious to the realities of our violent world as many Americans, who insist that we can all just get along, peaceably, if we'll just try. Or maybe it's that those hurtful, awful things happen elsewhere, but not in our little corner of the world. I don't know, but if someone comes running through wherever I am yelling, "Shooter! Run" or "Fire!" I am not going to finish my lunch before moving.

11:23 PM, September 13, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

During the early 70's I knew a graduate student who had been a student at the University of Texas when Charles Whitman open fired from the tower with a high power rifle.

Although he had been in the service, my friend, who was walking towards a doorway leading towards where people were being shot, initially thought the noises were firecrackers. Then he saw someone fall.

Sometimes unusual sounds just don't register mentally, especially if you haven't been around pistols, rifles and shotguns enough to know the distinctive sound they make as opposed to fireworks.

12:00 AM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous radford said...

Looks like Kimveer Gill, the apparent shooter is this case has been hanging out in some particularly hard core Goth and Vampire websites.

Do a google search for Kimveer.

I've cross posted this info on some other websites.

Mark Lapine, the École Polytechnique shooter, is a completely different animal.

On topic. As a Canadian, I recall, shortly after the first Montreal shooting a posting that was than making it's way around the "bulletin board" system (very hush, hush and muy romanitco) to the effect that the only gun control that would've been effective in that situation was a steady aim.

2:59 AM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

I'm Canadian and I don't know about clueless. It is inexperience and innocence. Our murder rate is tiny compared to the US murder rate, about a thirtififth (1/35) if I remember the numbers right: We are 1/10th the size of the US ...

The Swiss are even more innocent in these matters. In spite of military weapons in every house, murders in Switzerland are extremely rare. I bring up the Swiss as a Swiss lover's triangle recently went bad in Toronto (they were on a tour) and the Swiss are just going crazy trying to figure out how such a thing could happen.

Last summer Toronto was going CRAZY because of 57 gun-murders. Most US cities would think that an extremely light summer murder season.

Innocence ... It is sad to see it betrayed.

5:02 AM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Much more at the Volokh Conspiracy. Info on a "Goth" website the killer frequented and posted to. Note the "Stop the Bullying" rant he and others on the website engage in.

Perhaps schools should talk a lot less about bullying? "Bullying" seems to have turned into an excuse to commit mass murder. Funny, it never was that in my day.

9:06 AM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger geekWithA.45 said...

Even shooters often fail to recognize the sound of gunfire when it's outside of the usual context.

I was present at a gunshow when the staff guy at the door who was ziptying people's carry pieces fumbled, and accidentally discharged into the floor.

The sound was exactly that of dropping a large book onto the floor.

Only about third of the people around me visibly reacted, looking towards the sound, waiting to see what would happen next. (one gunshot's an AD, 2 or more is something else)

Another third noticed the first third reacting, and tuned in, and the last third remained oblivious.

9:17 AM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Christy said...

I lived in downtown Baltimore for years and gunshots echoed through almost every night. We all ignored those, too.

10:14 AM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger James Stephenson said...

I was living in an Apartment inside 285 in Atlanta. Well one night I was on my computer and I heard, bang, bang, bang, bang and my first thought was, someone has just died. Sure enough time I got my pistol and to the door the perp was gone but there was an apartment door about 200 feet away with the door open. The cops got their within minutes.

Drug related. I bought a house 3 months later.

A high powered rifle outside I can understand because there is some distance involved and the rifle barrel will muff the sound a little. But in a building, there should be no question it is a weapon of some kind.

12:06 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger ed said...


Normally I'm against enforced national or military service for recent highschool graduates *except* for perhaps a 6 month training in a boot camp where the inductees are trained in physical conditioning, firearms use & safety, survival skills and self-defense.

As an ex-Marine I'm frankly astounded every time I see a video or read an account of people who basically curl up and wait to die. Or people who allow themselves to be dragged off to some forsaken place to be abused and then murdered.

There are basic skills that every American should have that aren't taught by families, communities or their schools. Primarily due to political correctness and crazy ideologies but also because people generally don't consider the necessity.

Frankly if I were there I'd have attacked the shooter. I'd rather go out singing my death song than huddling under a table waiting for the shot. If it were my time to die you can bet I'd do it with my thumbs in his eyes and my teeth in his throat.

12:17 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous J said...

Come on, if the first thing you assume when you hear gunshots is that there's an Emo Psychopath on the loose, then you're opening up yourself to a lot paranoia. Yes, there are times like this when you can be upset that everyone wasn't more aware, but in the end it's probably worth it to be a little bit naive, then to hit the deck everytime someone's car backfires.

12:18 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

Segacs, you are quite right - people should not have to live with gun violence, any more than they should have to live with rain pouring though the ceiling. And the only way to prevent either of those is to accept the reality of rain and the inherent violence of human nature, and to take preventive measures. People have violent natures; that does not mean they have to commit violent acts. Peace does not just happen, it is not the natural state of affairs.

jw, I wonder what the suicide rate in Canada is. There may be no connection, but I recall someone drawing a correlation between high murder rates in the US and low in Sweden and comparing them both to the suicide rates, and finding an inverse relationship.

Considering the ethnic basis of Canada, primarily Scottish, I would expect a lot more murderous violence, but I see that that isn't the case.

12:46 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous RipRip said...

A lot of this violent behavior used to be let out with a good old fistfight! Now its jail time and law suits if even one punch is thrown.

12:57 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous (another) jim said...

I agree that the sound of a single shot, or a couple shots, can easily not be recognized. Identifying that the sound COULD be gunfire is the first hurdle.

At that point, behavior in such situations oft seems to consist of choosing the answer to a multiple choice question with the estimated relative probabilities of each identified potential answer the criteria for the decision. How likely is it really to be gunfire? How likely instead to be a prank?

Generally, folk have all seen or even been the butt of pranks in their life, but far fewer have been near gunfire. The probability of a prank is then judged far higher. When the gunfire is judged likely, folk far more often react. Otherwise, the downside of expected ridicule of having been prank-duped can be enough to offset the infinitesimally small (they think) risk to them of a gunfire event.

Human nature does not limit this reaction to this kind of event. After all, the first step in dealing with tragedy (grief) is denial.

When one is attacked via other means, say, allegations or negative campaigns, the first two steps are to ignore and deny.

The more civvies are innocent and/or naive of such things, the better the sheepdogs have been and need to continue to be.

1:15 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Oligonicella said...

Anon 5:20 PM

Nope, not new. Back in 1965, at Wyandotte High in K.C., a girl called "Crazy Mary" (beforehand) showed up with a shotgun and started shooting kids. A friend of mine, Vincent Jerret was shot in the ass as he fled.

1:15 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Richard Aubrey said...

WRT the early post about this maybe having something to do with the feminization of the schools:

You'll note the school shooters have not been in competitive sports, much less the smash-mouth kind.

1:30 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"J" said, above "it's probably worth it to be a little bit naive, then (sic) to hit the deck every time someone's car backfires."

Naive gets you dead.

I don't jump every time a car backfires, but I do paractice good situational awareness: I pay attention to people's mannerisms, hands and eyes, and look for things that seem out of place; whenever I enter a facility I look for the exits; I carry a small LED flashlight so if the power goes out I can find my way out; I maintain my vehicles so I'm not stranded someplace I don't want to be, and; I'm never, ever unarmed. Most of the time it's with a .45, sometimes a small 357, sometimes just a kubotan, but always with my brain and my wits.

I intend to not just stay alive, but prosper, and enjoy the company of my family and my friends into very old age. To accomplish that I need to not succumb to an early death, be it by disease or a deranged idiot bent on killing everyone in sight.

J, you might term Ed's and my outlooks as "opening you... [us] to a lot of paranoia," but it's not a lot different from maintaining fire insurance on your house, keeping air in your spare tire, or locking your door. I doubt you will ever understand people like me or Ed, above, which is fine. Your life belongs to you, completely, and it becomes what you make it, or what you allow others to make it into. Some of us intend to not let others make it into something we don't want, and on that list is not being injured or dead.

1:43 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Christy, I'm with you. The little pop-pop-pop is sort of a lullaby. It's hard to get to sleep without it.

1:54 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Knucklehead said...

I have nothing to say about the crime. A whackjob gone bonkers. Most of the goth teenagers running around are harmless (at least to others) but they bear some watching (if only for their own sake). There's apparently more to the whole thing than mere adolescent sartorial fashion.

Re: crime statistics (you're all dying to know, right)... Here is a brief summary of the 2004 numbers (Canada's homicide rate rose 12% in 2004 after hitting a 36-year low the year before. Police reported 622 victims of homicide, 73 more than last year. Alberta, British Columbia and Quebec accounted for most of this increase. The rate of 1.9 homicides for every 100,000 population was 5% lower than it was 10 years earlier..

In the US the rate for 2004 was 5.5 per 100,000.

No knock on Canada (y'all tend to be less prone to kill one another, that's obvious) but not quite 1/35 - more like 1/3.

I didn't find any quick and easy sources for recent suicide rates. Historically the US and Canada run similar rates with the US slightly lower than Canada and both slightly lower than the global average for "wealthy nations" (see UN report link below).

Swedish murder rates are very similar to Canada's (a little more wobbly because the population is even smaller). The Swedish propensity for suicide is something of a myth. They're high but not the highest and not wildly higher than other "wealthy nations". Here's some dated numbers.

Some caveats always apply to stats but quite likely not enough to matter much in this comparison. Stuff like reporting methods, compliance with reporting requirements, definitions of various types of murder, etc.

There are often surprises if one looks at violent crime stats (caveats always apply). For example, here's the top 10 murder rates from 2003:

(1) Columbia 63
(2) South Africa 51
(3) Jamaica 32
(4) Venezuela 32
(5) Russia 19
(6) Mexico 13
(7) Lithuania 10
(8) Estonia 10
(9) Latvia 10
(10) Belarus 9

Would anyone have expected the Baltic nations to make that list?

According to the UN the global homicide rate in 2002 was 8.8/100K. The global suicide rate is quoted at 14.5/100K. (BTW, if you want to minimize your chances of being a homicide victim, don't be a male between the ages of 10 and 29 living in South America or Africa).

2:04 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Wow, creepy to read the website. It made me wonder if it is preferable to be angry than it is to be hurt. As guys, the way we are socialized in this culture, I think that is part of the answer.

And that part has nothing to do with feminism, I think it has more to do with John Wayne and now darker music which glorifies violence and a hyper-masculine approache to life. It has been this way for awhile, before feminism became as important a force as it is in our culture.

I was talking to a guy just before reading this, about his 20 year journey with undiagnosed depression. He always thought that he was not tough enough. Honestly, he is having to be tougher now than he ever was before because now he can feel, and it is difficult.

So I guess I do not know why exactly, but I wonder about us as men preferring anger and attacking to hurt and crying.


2:27 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Darkmage said...

I think most of the lack of reaction from the potential victims was because they were just not familiar with the real sound of gunfire. It's vastly different than the sound effects used on television and so real gunfire just doesn't register as a threat.

2:49 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...


You are welcome for the link--thanks for taking time to post your up-to-date information.

As a psychologist who works with violent people--especially young people--you should know that as long as you have people living--you will have some level of violence. You should also know that you have some very angry young people in Canada. In 2000, when I wrote my book, The Scarred Heart, on teen killers, I did an internet survey of over 1200 kids--out of that--I had 41 Canadian youth whose data myself and a colleague analyzed. 32% of them fell into the violent category using the criteria of 1)bringing a weapon to school, 2) trouble with juvenile detention because of a violent offense and 3) expelled from school for a violent offense such as fighting or assault. 75% of the kids were angry enough to hit or harm someone. Mainly the Canadian kids who were surveyed said that they carried knives instead of guns but a full 87% said they knew other students who carried weapons with 50% mentioning guns. Researchers in Canada should look into why kids there are so angry--to focus on gun control, in my opinion, is a mistake, but if the country wants to feel better and not have to think about these problems, go right ahead--afterall, why should anyone have to live with these problems? Except they you do.

3:00 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Ron B said...

I take issue with the idea that these students were "clueless". There is a BIG difference between "violent crime" and mass murderers. These people weren't at a bar or in a sketchy part of town. Hearing a loud noise when eating your lunch, in a cafeteria, is not a reason to panic. No one instinctively knows what a gunshot sounds like. It is a loud bang just like any other. It could be any one of a dozen things, in a busy area like a school campus.

Also, the idea that this happened because the victims were Canadian makes my blood boil. The same thing could have happened to Americans. Canadians are not all ignorant and docile cattle, just because handguns have to be registered. Jeez. We have to be the most similar nations on the planet, almost, and today there is a whole bunch of bloggers ready to condemn us as pathetic sheep, just because our political spectrum leans lefter than Americans.
Sorry if this seems snarky. But this is about the fourth blog I've seen today where someone is self-righteously condemning these TEENAGERS, for being confused in an insane situation.
Some commenters say you would have charged the shooter instead of running away. That is not the question. The question is, would you have done that when you were 16 years old? Or would you have been confused and frightened, like these poor kids?

3:36 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous tyree said...

As an Architect I can tell you that modern buildings are very capable of dampening the loudest noises. The insulation factor is often hard to believe. I watched four F-18's take off from El Toro Marine Base while standing in a building I worked on years ago and didn't hear a sound. It was more than a little disorienting. The fact that most television shows don't use authentic sound effects also is a factor. The first time I went shooting the reports from the pistols didn't sound "real".

3:43 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Nice. Reeeeal nice. These people don't have the experience with rifles to recognize the sound of a gunshot. They were terrorized by a madman with a rifle. And you're calling them clueless.

God, you're pompous.

3:51 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

As an expat Canuck, I can relate to both ends of the issue.

I'm surprised nobody is nothing in Gill's writings the overarching dominant theme: entitlement mentality, gone to its ultimate end.

That's the essence of the whole "it's the world's fault I'm so screwed up etc."... the emotional root of that idea, is the perceived betrayal of a promise to be taken care of. Notwithstanding the fact that Canada is a sparsely populated country with a lot of "frontier" living conditions, self-reliance is not something taught in the schools. It is the entrenchment of second-hand living which has resulted in this kind of hyper-aggressive, self-righteous dependence. If we keep telling our children from birth that we are our brothers' keeper, it is inevitable that some of them will take it to heart and demand their "rights", even at gunpoint.

When I was younger, I had severe issues with bullies, felt unprotected and abandoned by the "system", and eventually started carrying a hammer to school. I even pondered building a bomb using the easily available ingredients for gunpowder, but gave up for lack of a testing venue... who knows where I'd be if I lived in the suburbs.

After trying to threaten one of the bullies and failing in humiliation (a weapon means nothing if you don't have the will to use it, and I didn't), I "snapped" in a good way; I decided then and there that I had to deal with the problem myself, by whatever means I had. Nobody was going to save me. So I abandoned the system, just as I felt it had abandoned me; I force quit school and completed my education by alternative channels. Eventually, I discovered the works of Ayn Rand, which gave me the foundation I needed to validate and sustain a self-made life.

Having done that, knowing just how the system in Canada fails its children (and that it has only gotten worse since I left) and having visceral experience of being a misfit, I have limited empathy and NO sympathy for creatures such as Gill. The level of entitlement mentality and spoiled-brat syndrome we see in his writings passes beyond sick and enters the realm of evil.

But few, if any, in Canada will even notice let alone acknowledge, any of that; they will simply focus on the guns, not the shooter, and they will lament his passing as a victim equal to those he murdered.

Gill's successors will certainly be taking note of that.

4:08 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Kirk Parker said...

Ron B,

"We have to be the most similar nations on the planet"

Wow, better not let any Canadians hear you say that! :-)

4:10 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

correction: the above should read "who knows where I'd be if I HAD NOT lived in the suburbs."

4:12 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 3:51 and others:

I am not responding simply to the fact that the students did not know that a gun was being fired--few of them heeded the warning to get out and finished their meal etc. and did not leave when someone told them there was trouble. It would be better to have some plan in place, that explained in advance to students and faculty what to do--whether that be a lock-down, leaving the areas, etc. An advance plan is always smarter than nothing. I do not blame the students in anyway for what happened--they were victims of a madman--I understand that--but at the same time, some planning by schools should be done and a program put in place for what to do in the event of a school shooting or intruder in a school. To say that nothing should be done or that, no further action should be warranted and go back to business as usual until the next shooting, is, in my opinion, a mistake.

4:24 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Tyree, to take your comments one step further, not only do building dampen noise but with gunshots, the sound tends to bounce around when you are in a group of buildings. Standing on a street corner around here you can't really determine where shots were fired unless you are really close.

Knucklehead, you might be interested to know that upon careful reading of the murder tally in my city on a weekly basis, black males are definitely the ones who are the most likely murder victims but the age range seems to be creeping upward from that 10-29 group to more of the 25-40 in the last couple of years.

And, Americans, don't feel so smug about 5.5 per 100,000, that is for the entire US. Here it was 43 in 2004. 2006 will be much higher. We had a brisk week last week with 11 murders. If a rich white kid gets capped it makes headline news, murdered poor black males don't even make the papers.

4:45 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger TabithaRuth said...

My elementary school kids are always practicing "lock-downs" which apparently involves herding all the kindergartners into the bathroom or having the fourth graders sit against the wall in the cafeteria.

While this is great for head counts, I don't understand the point. If I'm a psycho with a gun, my targets have all just been rounded up for me.

And Ed, I annoy me teenager all the time by giving advice to movie/tv characters--don't go with the guy, have him shoot you where there are witnesses, don't run up the stairs run out, etc.

8:36 PM, September 14, 2006  
Anonymous AB said...

You know, those two shootings were 17 years apart.

So while I agree with the idea that an emergency plan is needed, well, I wouldn't say that it means Canadians are clueless. I don't think the school was negligent here. I definitely don't think people were deliberately avoiding planning for a conceivable emergency. I mean, come on. I'm sure there's plenty of high schools in the States without a good plan in case a non-student comes in with a rifle and starts indiscriminately shooting. I mean, what do you do? Would it be much different from a fire drill? What if the killer is in the path of your selected egress route? Kinda tough to plan.

9:49 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

"Then the LORD said to Cain, 'Where is Abel your brother?' He said, 'I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?' And He said, 'What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood cries out to Me from the ground.'" (Gen. 4:9-10)

Two things most struck me about what you report. One that the murderer was notably against Cruelty to Animals, which, in this context, suggests that he felt his regressed or difficult to express feelings, where he was like a (defenseless) animal, had extraordinary rights of vindication. The other is that the normal person said of the victim, to those leaving, 'Don't Look.' Is this, in part, to imply once you have passed out of the government protected sphere, possibly from being mortally wounded, you should not be considered, not serving our uses? A cultural gap from Genesis also apparently seen in Russia where removal may still be accepted.

10:07 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger segacs said...

To all the people who claim that having more guns or more people armed and willing to charge the shooter would've helped, I wonder if you have really thought about it.

I'm writing as someone who has never owned or fired a gun, hates the idea of guns, never wants anything to do with a gun. But even to those of you who are gun-owners and who take your guns to target practice regularly, I have to ask:

Imagine you were 17 years old, eating lunch with your friends, and someone burst in with a rifle and started shooting.

Do you really think you could have pulled out a weapon in the middle of a crowded school, with your friends all around, and started shooting?

Do you really think it would've helped matters if you did this, risking hitting innocent bystanders and upping the death or injury toll even more?

There were armed police on the scene within 3 minutes. They had the shooter cornered almost immediately and he was dead within 15 minutes.

The police are trained to respond to such emergencies and by all accounts they did their job, and it prevented even worse tragedy.

A bunch of hot-headed teenagers walking around the hallways of Dawson - or any other school - with handguns wouldn't have done anything to make yesterday's situation better, and probably would've made it worse. Not to mention the general increase in unrelated violence that would surely come from them having weapons around all the time.

It's easy to talk tough on an anonymous web forum. It's easy even to buy a gun and practice shooting it at a paper target. But when you have split seconds to react instinctively to something, and firing a gun could wind up hitting not the shooter but your best friend, I daresay many of you would've thought twice. Or at least I like to hope so.

11:04 PM, September 14, 2006  
Blogger a psychiatrist who learned from veterans said...

Segac, We have the concealed carry law in Texas precisely because a woman had a gun in her purse but did not bring it into a restaurant, it being illegal, and many people were killed when the one willing to be an outlaw came into Luby's and killed a number of people. You are advocating a society were only those willing to be outlaws will be armed in a confrontation or, rather, slaughterhouse shoot. The anthropological book The Origin of War takes the position, with evidence, that it was the analogous situation with the invention of the bow and arrow that led to organized aggression. Before that, there was too much parity between attackers and defenders which posed too great a risk to potential aggressors.

1:16 AM, September 15, 2006  
Anonymous KarenT said...

One thing these types of shootings show is that many people in our culture now value fame more than accomplishment. Note, for example, the multiple magazines you see on the rack concerning celebrities who really have little importance in the world other than their fame. And by having actors, rather than experts, testify before congress concerning any number of subjects. These kinds of killers sometimes get their pictures on the front of celebrity magazines.

The shooter's website places great importance on his feelings of the moment and his attitudes toward the world. Because he has become a killer, we now pay attention to his website, his feeling and attitudes. And he didn't have to "become someone" the old-fashioned way order to get us to pay attention. It reminds me of a small child's tantrum, greatly amplified in its destructiveness.

We need more grownups.

2:56 AM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

The people most likely to shoot, join a gang or join a terrorist group are all the same: Young men who have a valid grievance and feel no one is willing to deal with it.

Seems to me that the best solution is to put some time and money into listening to and helping young men! Oh I know ... that is not going to happen. The size and scope of anti-male feeling is far too big to allow money to be "wasted" on mere males.

That doesn't change the facts. If you want to get rid of these things, you must put time and money into young men.

4:59 AM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...


I think you are right--that young men do need more attention and time. I used to see so many in my practice who felt similar to the young man in this case--angry, alienated, frustrated and unsure where to turn. Young men direct their anger, hurt, pain and humiliation outwardly, moreso than women and this is when you can see acts of violence that are disproportional to the wrongs they feel others have done to them. I have found through my work that you can often reach these young men--at least to the point where they will not harm others. However, with all of the emphasis on girls and not enough on the true inner workings, thoughts and needs of boys in our society, the problems will likely continue. Luckily, shootings are still rare, but the feelings of anger, despair and hopelessness are not. Hence, the fairly high rate of male suicide.

8:02 AM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger Cham said...

Shootings are still rare??? We already have a dead Blockbuster manager and it is still early in the day. I don't think anger management classes on a grand scale is going to have an effect. You are fighting a mindset, a way of life, and kids that simply don't care about how they spend their future. You might be able to reach some of the kids on a one-on-one basis but most of these kids aren't going to heed any well-meaning advice.

8:51 AM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger Dr. Melissa said...

I'm curious to know if the shooter was medicated. The default position these days is to give a troubled person of any age medicine and then leave him on his own.

The medicine is convenient for everyone but the child. The meds indicate that his brain is the problem--heaven forbid issues with his parents, the school administration bullies, or most importantly, him, actually be dealt with.

Very few people are taught conflict-resolution skills and diagnoses, ironically, can get in the way of behavioral intervention. Even here, Borderline Personality Disorder was discussed. Shrugged shoulders. Not much can be done.

A gunman, like a terrorist, will always have the advantage--he knows his plans, others have to guess if he's a threat or not. An armed student or teacher could have brought him down sooner, but damage would still have been done.

9:00 AM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger TMink said...

Dr. Melissa wrote an excellent post in which she typed "The meds indicate that his brain is the problem-." Well, I think it usually IS the brain. See, brains don't work right. Think of the brain as a computer. If it were, we would ALL exchange ours for one that works. Brains are too glitchy. Imagine if your computer's spell checker was inconsistent and let many spelling errors slip through (dyslexia) or the monitor was black and white when you paid for color (color blindness) or the sound card sounded awful (poor pitch) or you could not read the output from the printer (dysgraphia) or the computer kept switching from running your work spreadsheet to running Everquest II (ADD.) You would buy a new computer, one that worked!

In my practice, people feel releived (damn dyslexia) that it is their hardware, not their character that is at fault. It is still our responsibility to figure out the workarounds for the faulty hardware, but it is a HUGE thing for ADD client's to understand that their brain is different rather than that they are worthless, lazy human beings.


9:55 AM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger Knucklehead said...

Don't know if this discussion is still active or not but this "kid" was 25 years old. I realize the modern world has stretched out adolesence a bit but this was no teenager. Twenty-five and still running around playing Goths and Vampires. Somebody, somewhere, knew there this loon was deeply disturbed.

Just askin', but why are we contemplating how to manage the overall society - the peaceful cafeterias, full of peaceful young people, in our peaceful schools - rather than contemplating how to manage the tiny fraction of young people who throw off signs and signals that they are a whacko for years before they cook off?

This particular loon got a good five years beyond what anyone close to him should have allowed. Somebody shoulda gotten him some help a half-decade or more ago.


Your point is well taken. Violence, particularly the homicidal variety, tends to coagulate. Inner cities in the US have a MUCH higher homicide rate than the overall US rate. That is probably true nearly everywhere. No doubt there are places in South Africa where there are hardly ever any murders and other places where the chance of being murdered is a very real part of life. Homicides are rare in the vast majority of places in the US. Filter out the inner cities data and 5.5 rate probably drops off a cliff and looks a lot more like Canadian and Swedish numbers.

1:26 PM, September 15, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

Dr. Helen: We should add to the high male suicide rate and the rare shootings and ... that far too many young men are now withdrawn from society via video games, books, etc..

We should have somewhere around 6% of our male population out of touch with society, not working, not doing much of anything. We now run above 13% and growing for the middle class alone.

One may say, with some good reason: "The one thing which most seperates a disfunctional society from a functional one is the percentage of men out of touch with that society."

3:51 AM, September 16, 2006  
Blogger newsbeat1 said...

His mother provided some answers:

Mother of killer feels sorry
'It's not our fault'

His former friends

8:33 PM, September 16, 2006  
Blogger look said...


12:31 AM, March 15, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

7:44 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

7:44 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

2:23 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...


5:04 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 吉澤明步QQ美女視訊秀 85cc免費影片aa影片下載城sex免費成人影片aaa片免費看短片美女視訊 sex383線上娛樂場av969 免費短片日本免費視訊aa影片下載城視訊網愛聊天室影音視訊交友 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇sex520免費影片aa免費影片下載城aio辣妺視訊 aio辣妹交友愛情館 jp成人影片aio交友愛情館馬子免費影片免費線上a片18成人85cc影城0204movie免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友s383視訊玩美女人34c高雄視訊聊天jp成人免費視訊辣妹 kk777視訊俱樂部xxxpandalive173影音視訊聊天室 sex520-卡通影片成人免費視訊 完美女人13060 免費視訊聊天sexy girl video movie辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室UT視訊美女交友視訊情色網百事無碼a片dvd線上aa片免費看18禁成人網ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊激情網愛聊天 情人小魔女自拍卡通aa片免費看夜未眠成人影城aio性愛dvd辣妹影片直播拓網視訊交友視訊聊天室ggoo168論壇視訊辣妹love104影音live秀 美女show-live視訊情色yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室s383情色大網咖視訊aaa俱樂部台灣情色網無碼avdvdsexy diamond sex888入口Show-live視訊聊天室

1:49 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費 a 片aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部dodo豆豆聊天室sex520網路自拍美女聊天室天堂免費線上avdvd援交av080影片aa影片下載城aaa片免費看短片成人圖片區18成人avooogo2av免費影片sexdiy影城免費線上成人影片bonbonsex0951影片下載日本av女優sex888免費看影片免費視訊78論壇辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊dudu sex免費影片avdvd情色影片免費色咪咪影片網av080免費試看日本美女寫真集辣妹脫衣麻將視訊聊天室性福免費影片分享日本美女寫真集,kk視訊aio交友愛情館免費成人美女視訊bt論壇色情自拍免費a片卡通tw 18 net卡通18美少女圖色情漫畫777美女小護士免費 aa 片試看百分百成人情色圖片a片免費觀賞sexy girls get fuckedsexy girl video movie情色文學成人小說sex888免費看eyny 伊莉論壇sexdiy影城自拍情色0204movie免費影片aio免費aa片試看s383情色大網咖sexy girl video movie草莓牛奶AV論壇台灣論壇18禁遊戲區環球辣妹聊天室 90691拓網aio交友愛情館拓網學生族視訊777美女 sex888影片分享區hi5 tv免費影片aa的滿18歲卡通影片sex383線上娛樂場sexdiy影城免費a片線上觀看真人美女辣妹鋼管脫衣秀比基尼辣妹一夜情視訊aio交友愛情館

1:49 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

小魔女免費影城免費看 aa的滿18歲影片sex383線上娛樂場kk777視訊俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片a片免費看A片-sex520視訊聊天室v6 0plus論壇sex520免費影片avdvd-情色網qq美美色網ut13077視訊聊天A片-無碼援交東京熱一本道aaa免費看影片免費視訊聊天室微風成人免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室av1688影音視訊天堂免費 a 片85cc免費影城亞洲禁果影城微風成人av論壇sex520免費影片JP成人網免費成人視訊aaa影片下載城免費a片 ut交友成人視訊85cc成人影城免費A片aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片85cc免費影片aaa片免費看短片aa影片下載城aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片台灣論壇免費影片後宮0204movie免費影片免費卡通影片線上觀看線上免費a片觀看85cc免費影片免費A片aa影片下載城ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 日本免費視訊aaaa 片俱樂部aaaa片免費看影片免費視訊78論壇情色偷拍免費A片免費aaaaa片俱樂部影片aa影片下載城色漫畫帝國av俱樂部aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片 杜蕾斯成人免費卡通影片線上觀看85cc免費影片線上觀賞免費線上歐美A片觀看免費a片卡通aaa的滿18歲卡通影片sex520免費影片免費 a 片

1:49 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 徵信 said...

外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇外遇

外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 ,
外遇 外遇 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇外遇 外遇外遇 外遇 外遇

外遇 外遇

外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇 , 外遇劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿劈腿喜帖囍帖卡片外遇外遇 外遇 外遇外遇 外遇
外遇 外遇 外遇 外遇剖析 外遇調查 外遇案例 外遇諮詢 偷情 第三者外遇話題 外遇發洩 感情挽回 徵信社 外遇心態 外遇 通姦 通姦罪 外遇徵信社徵信社外遇 外遇 抓姦徵信協會徵信公司 包二奶 徵信社 徵信 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信社 徵信 徵信 婚姻 婚前徵信 前科 個人資料 外遇 第三者 徵信社 偵探社 抓姦 偵探社 偵探社婚 偵探社 偵探社偵探家事服務家事服務家電維修家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務家事服務持久持久持久持久持久持久持久離婚網頁設計徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社外遇離婚協議書劈腿持久持久持久持久持久劈腿剖析徵信徵信社外遇外遇外遇外遇徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信徵信社徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信社徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信公會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 徵信協會 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿 劈腿

4:51 AM, April 20, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

10:59 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

自拍美女聊天室 s383視訊情人主播脫衣秀微風論壇080聊天室6k情人網性感美女美女寫真影片裸體美女18成人網美女寫真影片免費觀賞777美女dvd影片kiss168下載a視訊交友90739av1688影音娛樂網kiss168成人kiss168下載kiss168成人電影ut影音視訊聊天室13077貓貓論壇台灣18成人網85cc成人片85cc免費情色影片性行為性趣十足辣妹情色視訊真人視訊交友成人貼圖

11:42 PM, June 07, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home