Friday, June 09, 2006

Podcast: Divorce Court 101

Statistics indicate that the divorce rate is high--some say up to fifty percent of marriages in the US end in divorce while others say it is lower, but still high. Are you about to become one of these statistics or know someone who is? Then you have to listen to our dicussion with divorce attorney, Lauren Strange-Boston, who joins us in our studio today to discuss how men and women differ when it comes to negotiating the terms of divorce. We will focus first on what to look for in a spouse in order to avoid divorce, how to find a good divorce attorney if the worst happens and you need one, how to manage your feelings in the most effective way (hint: anger and/or manipulation may not win your case), and what to do if your soon-to-be ex decides to bring charges against you for sexual abuse or other serious allegations.

You can listen to the podcast by clicking here (no iPod necessary) or you can subscribe via iTunes here. Here is a link to our podcast archive if you want to listen to previous podcasts here. And there's a low-fi version for dialup users right here.

Please leave any comments or suggestions below

63 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

one of the best audio clips i've ever heard. you should commercialize it as a pre-marital decision aid.

9:06 AM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 9:06:

So glad you liked it!

9:17 AM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Is there any alternate download loactions? We have tight security at my installation and centcom blocks most stuff like that.

mg. OIF

9:37 AM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous NEP Admin said...

Extraordinarily good news to see this topic getting exposure. The divorce industry has gotten completely out of control and is itself spawning massive undue pressure on the American marriage and family. It must be reformed.

9:40 AM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

anonymous 9:37:

You can find it on iTunes or there is a dial up version etc. but it all comes from the same server.

9:42 AM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger SpecialOpsDude said...

Ok Registered now - I'm deployed and well the masters like to block stuff. I'll just have to take your word for it that it is a good podcast.

BTW, keep up the good works Dr. Helen, your blog is very insightful.

9:53 AM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous dave Hardy said...

One piece of advice they should add: never burn your bridges. I, or to be more exact, my ex, found that out by experience. www.franceshardy.com

12:19 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Ann Þø said...

I Read the instatpundit

http://instapundit.com/archives/030844.php

""As always, my lovely and talented cohost is soliciting comments and suggestions.""

I will say that your photo shows a good looking woman, I do not know about the talent but could give you the benefit ....

PLEASE PLEASE:

Could you tell The Pundit to stop the groveling in all the posts where he mentions you.

Then I would say that finaly you reached equality.

Ann Þ

Which is upset that a woman would accept such display of ( very negative word to be inserted by reader) by a man , any man, and assuredly by a man near to her....


PS
I will never read a word from you until HE stops to be a sad puppy.

I will keep reading him but cringe at every refence to the.......Helen

12:39 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ann Whatever,

You do realize that Glenn (InstaPundit) and Helen are husband and wife, right?

12:46 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Dr. Melissa said...

Dr. Helen,
You seem awfully convinced that men get the shaft in court. Every man I know who got divorced, even one who molested his grandchildren which caused the divorce, will claim that they got the shaft. Many men invariably claim shock and surprise that their spouse doesn't want to be married to them and immediately believe the evil bxxtch wants "my money". It couldn't possibly be that she didn't want him.

Women, on the otherhand, seem to revel in victimhood. He did this to me--not, he showed me his stripes, I stayed with him, married him, birthed children to him over and over and over and now I'm surprised that he did this to me. They negate the little choices they make over and over. They manipulate and believe they can change someone. They protect their own bad choices by putting up with bad behavior and then claiming innocence. They initiate physical contact and when they experience retaliation (which is a lot more damaging) they ignore their own part in the play.

I get sick and tired of women not being held to account. But give me a break, men are no angels and are hardly victims of the system. The lawyer you interviewed said that men want to "strike back" verbally, monitarily, etc. Surely you've seen that with your clients, no?

Have you seen the statistics on divorced fathers of children and paying for college tuition? Guys who would have paid tuition for their kids had they stayed married will refuse because their "legal obligation ends at 18" even though their former stay-at-home wife now works in a much lower paying profession. They punish the children for their own stupidity at procreating with this woman they now despise. The whole process is looked at in legal terms instead of moral terms. Of course, while mom and dad are playing defense and offense exchanging points, their kids are the losers.

Custody issues are a whole other thing. For the parents its about GETTING "my time". The whole divorce system is set up to look at the parents interests. The children are pawns. Excusing bad behavior by women or men just means buying into the myth that grown adults are the biggest losers. They're NOT.

1:16 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous NEP Admin said...

I won't engage in debate but I will present some facts borne out by research and statistic. All of this info is available, much of it from the feds:

-The divorce industry grants women sole custody 85% of the time sole custody is granted.

-Joint custody is also found in a very small majority.

-False charges of domestic violence pave the way for the highly unconstitutional theft of property, income, and the children themselves. Such strategies are commonplace advice from the divorce industry and naturally follow the 85/15 ratio of moms/dads custody. It pays!

-There is no presumption of innocence in divorce and custody. Get divorced against your will and lose your basic rights; no questions, no recourse. You will be denied equal protection, due process, presumption of innocence, right to freedom and property, legalized kidnapping without representation. Yes, this includes prison in a country where debtor's prison is outlawed.

-Averaging all research shows that domestic violence is absolutely 50/50 with regard to gender. The abusive-man stereotype is a myth perpetuated by feminists in order to bilk any number of federal and local programs of billions in favor of women, another constitutional violation.

-Federal Title IV-D is co-mingled with welfare and pays the states huge sums to create acrimony and thereby profit in divorce court and environs. Title IV-D is an adjunct to Joe Biden's sexist VAWA, which is utterly gender-biased in favor of women. One simply cannot overstate the for-profit myth-making and profit in the divorce industry.

-New Bush-enacted legislation will force all schoolchildren to undergo psychiatric evaluation as a condition of public schooling. This is a parallel issue to the corruption in the pharma industry, a close cousin to the divorce industry that makes additional millions referring kids out to medicating psychiatrists as part of divorce court. Get separated and watch your kids go through the hell of the psych/pharma/welfare/socials services gauntlet.

-Legal associations co-mingle the family court bench and your local family attorneys. Reports of custody rulings favoring attorney campaign contributors are rife in the divorce industry. Legislators hear testimony from judges, a violation of the separation of powers and virtually all state constitutions. Feminist and pharma lobbyists also maintain the profitable status quo.

Follow the money, folks. Family court and the divorce industry are shameless, unconstitutional, and are making a killing killing your family. Don't let them.

1:45 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Divorce Rate in California (*)

Year Marriages Divorces Divorce Rate
2000 196896 156531 79.5%
2001 224241 154672 69.0%
2002 217880 160854 73.8%
2003 194914 148511 76.2%
2004 172302 150180 87.2%

(*) Data from the California Court Statistics
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/reference/3_stats.htm

In California at least, marriage and divorce is big business.
Don't feed the machine. Stay single. Stay free.

1:47 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger L Steven said...

Centcom guy,

I am deployed too (am home for 2 week mid-tour leave - amen!).

You can use the internet cafe to download it. Or if you have internet in your pod. (We do, we paid $20K - divided between 50 people)

If you E-mail me at my AKO (steven.beene@us.army.mil) I can send it to you.

Hope that helps. Be safe bro, I'll try to do the same.

Steven

2:20 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm a child of divorce.

I have to comment that taking the high road IS the better option for parents. Despite the fact that my father left my mother for another woman, didn't pay enough child support (my mom would take one chicken and make soup so the meat would last the whole week), and then tried to take away a small inheritance my grandmother left my brother and I my mom didn't bad mouth him--she didn't want us to believe our dad was a bad person and that we were "bad" by extension.

Dad bad mouthed her all the time.

My brother and I didn't even know it was my dad who'd left us, didn't know we were poor because he didn't pay child support on a regular basis (no, HE wasn't poor). We still forgave Mom for "leaving Dad" because he seemed so childish and mean putting her down all the time...even by Junior High we'd decided he must be really weak.

It was only as we got older that we found out the truth from relatives and by confronting our mother on certain issues.

Mom remarried a GREAT guy who was a fantastic father to my brother and I, and a great husband. He loved us like we were his own.

Our father kind of spent his emotional bank account and neither my brother or I trust him --he keeps trying to get back in touch...but we both are afraid he wants the money we've both had to work so hard to earn (he's now sick and broke living on Social Security).

Taking the low road is a great way to loose your children in the end--although taking the high road is a hell of a lot harder in the short run.

2:40 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Dave Hardy said...

"I will never read a word from you until HE stops to be a sad puppy."

Puppies. You HAD to bring up puppies.

3:02 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Steve said...

I'd be careful with those divorce statistics. For example, suppose we have a population of 10 couples. 2 couples get divorced then remarried then divorced again. Now we have 12 marriages 4 of which have ended in divorce. Our hypothetical divorce rate is over 33%, but does that mean that any old marriage has a 33% chance of failing?

4:20 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Steve said...

Possible Bad Data Alert

Year Marriages Divorces Divorce Rate
2000 196896 156531 79.5%
2001 224241 154672 69.0%
2002 217880 160854 73.8%
2003 194914 148511 76.2%
2004 172302 150180 87.2%


Uhhhmmm is "marriages" the total number of married couples? Seems a tad low to me for CA with millions and millions of people. My guess is that the marriages are marriages for that year, hence the divorce rate is upwardly biased in that divorces can be any marriage from that year or previous year.

4:30 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous 556th said...

Steve I fail to see your point. We can also contemplate a scenario were 10 couples marry 4 get a divorce, 2 remarry and stay that way. 12 marriages 4 of which have ended in a divorce. a rate of 33% but 40% of the people involved has experienced a divorce. Is that what you were trying to say? that a 33% divorce rate does not mean that 33% of people would have experienced a divorce? if so, true, but as I have showed the actual percentage of divorcees may be higher or lower that the divorce rate. Or were you trying to say that people that divorce once are more likely to have more divorces?

4:37 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous RestoringGuy said...

The comments here make excellent points about equality. But an important thing to remember is that same-sex marriage will change all of this, and as a straight man I figured this out years ago. We should support it, not just because it's equal, but because it helps straight couples too.

Once feminists figure out, in a couple of years, that gay marriage takes away their exclusive power and royal female privilege (alimony, custody, and right to abuse kids) they will violently oppose it. Sadly, the NOW ladies will eventually turn gay-basher to fix the problem. Today, they expect a man to propose and a woman to dispose. Somebody must be forced to write the check and somebody must cash it. The other comments here, and widespread experience, has confirmed this one-way payment scenario. If there is no test to see who "the man" is, then such a mode of operation is impossible. So the feminists will be worse off and be shooting at their own foot. I would love to hear how it is not inevitable.

4:59 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Jim said...

"But an important thing to remember is that same-sex marriage will change all of this, and as a straight man I figured this out years ago. We should support it, not just because it's equal, but because it helps straight couples too. "

"Sadly, the NOW ladies will eventually turn gay-basher to fix the problem. "

Will? Honey, you are late to the party. See GayPatriot on this issue - they continually point out how one-way the flow of support is from gay (male) organizations to feminist ones on all the feminist hot button issues, with nothing in return.

It's not just simple selfishness and opportunism. It is a philosphical position with these people. I remember reading some writer musing how the whole gay movement was really a patriarchal gambit to diminish women's power (ie. how wicked and controlling men were not to let themselves be lead around by the short handle) I guess the "thinking" was that men have some kind of obligation.

"Today, they expect a man to propose and a woman to dispose."

Well, what is the mechanism? Of course, with so many women so sexually inept - hint; lying there and daring him to give you and orgasm, letting him "get some", does not make you Good In Bed - it's not hard for the competition to leave them in the dust - I am here to tell you that there is an almost unending supply of married men who swing both ways. (And spare me the Church Lady moralizing and the tearful recriminations - no one strays if he is really in love, and it takes two to tango in that as in most thngs marital. Besides, you are not necessarily in the right just because he is in the wrong.)

Maybe Restoring isn't referring only to a wider range of sexual options. Then too, maybe he is just referring to an image in society of men enjoying life very well, in respectable suburban comfort, without depending on women.

6:10 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

A comment for those of you who practice domestic law and/or who are in a position to speak to policy issues.

Both in my own divorce and in those of some friends, I noticed a particularly thorny issue and think it is structural in the current system.

I refer to the practice of trying all issues, including custody, in a single proceeding. In the context of settlement, then, what happens is similar to what happened to me:

Three months before trial, we received recommendations from our mediator and facilitator on an appropriate parenting time schedule. The attorneys and parties agreed to these items and put them into the circulation drafts of the stupulated decree.

Negotiations then proceeded. Two weeks before trial, the other side made an absurd financial demand. But they also said if we did not acquiese to that demand everything was off the table. Given the brevity of docket time we'd get, we knew the bulk of trial would then be spent fighting about custody and parenting time. This happens very often, according to divorce lawyers I've spoken to. It puts the non-custodial parent (usually the man) in the impossible position of being forced to accept huge and inequitable financial concessions or face less than was already agreed on how much time he would get to see his attorneys.

It would appear, from where I sit, that separating the financial issues from the custody / parenting issues would keep this from occurring. Any other thoughts?

6:13 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous RestoringGuy said...

Thank you Jim for the excellent analysis. I guess once a few gay divorces kick in and feminists cry "where's my free lifetime divorce paycheck?", the NOW anger will accelerate.

No recriminations needed if there is honesty. Good in bed, as you suggest, requires a two-way street. But if a partner is totally honest and non-exploitive, learning to be good in bed for each other would follow. But one can't start out with a partner who is "good in bed" and then require honesty and fairness arrive later in a relationship (who is really that "good" in their unlearned youth?).

Jim, I wasn't referring to men not "depending on women", so much as saying let's keep it mutual and voluntary without the feminist guns at our heads. Divorce is a feminist profit center, using children as hostage. Yes, I was one of those kids years ago, though it's too late for me. The faster gay marriage is established, the faster the feminist battleship is sunk and our fathers can get their rights back.

7:05 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous 556th said...

"Thank you Jim for the excellent analysis. I guess once a few gay divorces kick in and feminists cry "where's my free lifetime divorce paycheck?", the NOW anger will accelerate".

I really don't understand. Why is gay divorce going to affect the feminist stance on divorce?. You thing gay marriage and divorce will mean less money for exploitive women? why? I fail to see the mechanism.

7:19 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Lou Minatti said...

From the podcast:

"Don't disparage your spouse in front of your children."

Absotively. I can remember the shouts and the screaming between my parents. I can remember my Dad saying horrible things about my Mom. They divorced when I was 7. Do adults ever consider how traumatic this shit is to children? Let me tell you, it is the WORST feeling a child can have. The child's life is already being torn apart, and when one parent disparages another in front of that child it makes the child feel that the parents aren't just splitting up, one of them will be gone for good.

If you parents feel the need to have your stupid pissy screaming matches, wait until the kids have gone off to school for the day, or wait until the kids are asleep, go to your car, shut the doors and roll up the windows. Then scream. Your kids don't need to hear that crap.

8:29 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger DcFather said...

The faster gay marriage is established, the faster the feminist battleship is sunk and our fathers can get their rights back.

My view is that gay marriage will sink fatherhood even lower, if that is possible. You will have divorced mothers collecting child support, alimony, divorce settlements, tax benefits, and possibly welfare like now. But heterosexual divorced mothers will marry each other for additional cash incentives, including tax breaks and lower insurance costs.

They will just have a revolving door of boyfriends coming and going, and nobody is going to make sure the two mothers are having sex with each other. Heterosexual divorced fathers will have to marry each other to get the financial breaks in order to meet all of their support burdens and stay out of Uncle Sam's gay dungeon debtor's prisons.

What is does to children won't matter any more than now, because its the Bar Associations and the feminists that matter most. Gay marriage will help them both. Lawyers will make more money because fewer women will be able to resist the incentives to divorce, brining in more business than ever. Feminists will love it because women will live like queens without doing anything while men slave away just to stay out of prison. It will be a feminist utopia.

With no incentive to stay married and a financial windfall bonanza awaiting mothers as a reward for making fatherless children, a child being raised by his/her biological parents will be reserved for the fortunate few who have a mother unwilling cash them in just because the government rewards them for doing so, and turning dear old dad into a peon.

9:44 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I kinda wish my mom would have disparaged my dad a little more. Then I wouldn't have thought of his garbage as being "normal" and desireable in a mate. Some things are not okay.

9:46 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous max said...

I think that the suggestion that custody and asset division processes be divided makes a lot of sense. Frankly asset division, as distinct from alimony and support adjudication, should probably be removed from the discretion of family courts entirely. IANAL but from what I understand of family court rules and procedures, these seem wholey inadequate to the equitable determination of property allocation. Such disputes are probably more appropriate to civil courts where they could be treated as matters of contract.

as to 'gay marriage':
IMO a potent reform movement could be founded on the recognition that advocates of traditional and homosexual marriages share a common interest - to establish a definition of marriage which transcends the caprice of state authority.

11:01 PM, June 09, 2006  
Blogger Atticus said...

Dr. Helen, someone else made the point that you are eager to believe that men get the shaft in court. I noticed that, too, and was puzzled by it. I have seen that attitude from women married to men who "got the shaft" in an earlier divorce. (No, I'm not speculating about your marriage.) I was glad to hear the lawyer say that she thought men and women are treated about the same in court...which is about what I'd expect. Maybe I have more faith in our court system.

11:16 PM, June 09, 2006  
Anonymous NEP Admin said...

I'm not sure how much clearer it can be said than by the statistics themselves, Atticus. The system is epidemically slanted against men and the reasons are simply too myriad to explain in a short comment.

Follow the money, follow the special interest, and follow the cultural stereotypes. Family law feminism, as with all feminist policy, is about anything but gender equity.

That's not opinion. Start with iFeminists.com and GlennSacks.com. Then research the US govt itself for legislation enabling the systemic and systematic ruin of a great statistical majority of fathers.

It's not for nothing that despite all the complaining and mythmaking about glass ceilings and wage gaps that US women own literally billions more in personal property than men. Or that women outlive men.

It's also not for no reason that women are the statistical majority of child abusers yet enjoy primary custody five times more than men.

Although it is, ultimately the issue shouldn't be about the war between the sexes. It should be about a highly socialized, authoritarian government where law is bought and sold for special interest votes.

1:03 AM, June 10, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

I wouldn't be so sure that men don't get the shaft in divorce. Such is stinkin' thinkin'

My area of knowledge is fathers who have custody. I had custody of my now grown kids.

In the divorce I got a blender and the kids ... she'd turned everything else into booze. She seldom paid her support and the support amount was a third of what a man with the same income would pay: THAT one, is what I worked so hard to change (and somewhat succeeded): There are no known cases of imputed income for NC mothers and MANY MANY such for NC fathers, (where the judge arbitrarily increases the income of the NC parent.).

NC mothers do a worse job of paying support than NC fathers and as bad a job of keeping in touch with the kids.
Lone fathers do a better job of keeping child abuse out of their parenting *. These things are true and without doubt. Yet, courts see fathers as backup mothers, at best. (* I could argue several reasons for this....)

Fathers are not the sub-human scum which modern society demands we all are. This is a message which must be driven into the minds of every person commenting on divorce.

From the NC father side, it is easy to find a man who has solid proof that mom is abusing the kids and threatening him: Nothing is done, nothing at all. We live in a society which demands that we care about the kids first and yet allow some mothers to abuse so we can bash and damage innocent men.

5:01 AM, June 10, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I enjoyed this podcast.

I have heard this lawyer's observations many times from many different sources. The high divorce rate is driven by unrealistic expectations for marriage and choosing partners based on fleeting attractions instead of choosing your best friend.

I'm guessing people are either ignoring these observations which are being proved by the test of time or they are ignorant of them.

Steve R

11:01 PM, June 10, 2006  
Blogger Llounaz said...

Great Podcast as always, but just wanted to mention that something about Strange-Boston's voice clicked with me. Whether it was some tinkering with audio settings or just her charismatic speaking, I was extra irked when this podcast ran out of time.

4:51 AM, June 11, 2006  
Anonymous Chris said...

I cannot imagine how this attorney cannot see any injustice except from the protective order side. Is the protective order, having been awarded, an advantage in the remainder of the case? After all, as she says, judges are people too. No matter how the law delineates, its all one big morass.
Her observation that men want to go litigate each development along the way seems counter to the nature of men and women. Seems women are the ones who really want that judge to proclaim their ex a horses back side, in a very gossipy way.
I just don't buy this interview.

11:47 AM, June 11, 2006  
Blogger Trusted said...

Good luck with the idea of reforming family law. Too many "Licensed-To-Steal" lawyers are involved. - MyPGP.Com

8:42 AM, June 12, 2006  
Blogger Atticus said...

Okay, okay. After listening to you and thinking some more about the interview--it makes sense to me that the attorney probably sees things coming out evenly because she's involved. If she thinks the divorce cases are not resolved fairly, then she would have to shoulder part of the blame. As for my sanguine belief that things probably aren't as bad as all that--maybe that comes from not having very many friends who have gone through divorces. The idea of anyone losing a child through divorce is painful enough for me not to want to think too long about it...

1:13 PM, June 12, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Remember that the Divorce Industry is just that --- a lucrative business that channels billions of dollars to all of its various franchisees: the attorneys, judges, women’s advocates, DV counselors, child support collectors, police, drug companies, liquor dealers, shrinks, self-help book authors, etc. etc.

The expert attorney had lots of good advice about how to navigate through a divorce, but I can’t recall if she had any actual suggestions about how the easy drive-through no-fault divorce system could be reformed in order to restore marriage and family as viable social institutions.

Most of the experts lamenting the tragedies of divorce depend upon continued high levels of divorce to make their livings.

A long time ago I learned that when you see a system that is obviously "broken," ask yourself – "but on the other hand, who is it working very well for?"

As nep admin said so astutely -
"Follow the money, folks. Family court and the divorce industry are shameless, unconstitutional, and are making a killing killing your family. Don't let them."

6:19 PM, June 12, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

Dear Dr Helen

The podcast on divorce matters was very good, and it is a pleasure to hear two genuinely intelligent women talking about these vital issues with a realism and commonsense that is sadly lacking in the average academically educated woman (and generally speaking man also) nowadays.

Furthermore, I'd like to congratulate you on your earlier post "Who Stole Psychology"

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2005/11/who-stole-psychology.html

Though at that time wholly unaware of your website or earlier article I recently wrote and published an article on the following website called "How the Feminists Stole Psychology."

http://thepiratebay.org/details.php?id=3494000

(downloadable using a client such as BitTornado completely free along with any of the other works, or failing that as a direct download as a PDF file from the web site below.)

I supply this information merely for you and your reader's benefit, because I do not make any money from my writing in any way, and I am in fact wholly anonymous, as "Sam Fryman" is merely a pseudonym as with many writers.

Commenting briefly on your podcast, I can say that in England where I live, the situation on divorce and relationship breakdowns is every bit as bad or worse than in America, and as always, children are the greatest victims.

I have argued in one of my works that the pre-nuptial or - as attorney Lauren put it "ante-nuptial" - agreements should be made compusory in all marriages, not only as a legally protective measure in terms of property and custody issues of children, but as an essential exercise in determining whether a prospective married couple should ever marry in the first place, because I would extend this pre-nuptial agreement to a much broader (though not necessarily public in all instances) contract including questions of the compatibility of religious practices and beliefs (e.g. one person might insist on regular attendance at church or doing meditations in isolation, which may annoy or alienate the other party), where and how any children should be schooled and educated, division of labour on childcare/housework, sexual tendencies (i.e. will one party demand sexual practices the other may not wish to consent to), discipline of children (do both parents approve smacking, and in what situations?) and as full as possible a confession of personal habits (e.g. the toothpaste sqeeze issue attorney Lauren mentioned, raising the toilet seat, which side of bed preferred, sticking finger in ear; compulsive car fixing, playing of a musical instrument, sport watching etc.) which are likely to drive the other person crazy, so that both parties before any marriage know who their partner really is, rather than just basing the relationship wholly on sexual attraction and again as Lauren said,"unrealistic expectations" as happens now.

So may I just finish by wishing you luck with everything you do, and promising I will try and find an opportunity to mention you in any of my future works, which in general are downloaded by several thousands people on one site or another, each time I publish something new.

best wishes

Sam Fryman

6:05 AM, June 13, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

the only problem would be who would police it, oh my hubbie plays the guitar and i hate it, lets have a divorce, on those grounds of cruelty..

he sleeps on his left side.. and that breaks the contract.. lets sue him.. this is worse case.

3:14 PM, June 13, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

No, you're missing the point.

You would know about the guitar playing and how "hubbie" sleeps before marrying, and decide if you can live with that.

So you would "police it" yourself, by not getting married in the first place if you couldn't agree terms.

You are mistaken to take such a mocking attitude, because for example, there is a real life case of a woman who killed her husband because of his obsessive playing of the electric organ.

Please think more carefully before casually criticising the ideas of someone who has researched and studied his materials for over a quarter of a century.

5:13 PM, June 13, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

but your saying that people cant change their habits, that they have to document every moment of their live, past, present and future, in a single document.

what if i decide to take up the guitar, and she hates it, people change, i used to like one thing, now i dont, i like another..

so document your entire life, interests, sleep patterns, if you like spicy sauces.. its beyond silly, my fiance cant stand a certain herb, but i love it, does that mean we shouldnt get married..

5:18 PM, June 13, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

No, I'm just saying that in so far as possible, each party should be aware of all the potential problems at least at the outset.

For example, if you would not take up a new job without a detailed contract explaining your duties, rights, obligations, and "working conditions", which only a fool would fail to do, why on earth would you want to go into a marriage without any proper contract as to your rights, duties and obligations?

However, in many ways life is made of trivia such as you mention, and what is trivial to one person - e.g. someone who likes to sleep in late and stay up till 2 or 3am in the morning - could drive another person crazy.

In the days before people had a TV in every room, fights used to break out over which TV channel would be tuned.

I think it is not therefore unreasonable to suggest that people who disagree about a significant lifestyle issue should decide if they are going to be able to compromise on it, should they marry, and therefore be forced to live together.

You see, the sort of dicussion we are having here for example is very much like an argument of a married couple.

I say something I think is fairly obvious and acceptable. Then you raise points I think ill considered and needlessly argumentative.

So likely we are in a pattern by now of this cat and mouse, tit for tat, and I am not seeing any signs of agreement yet.

Thus, should we be of opposite gender, I would have decided by now that we weren't suitable to get married.

I wonder if you are going to change my view of you with your next reply?

6:01 PM, June 13, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"So likely we are in a pattern by now of this cat and mouse, tit for tat, and I am not seeing any signs of agreement yet."

You Sir have so misunderstood feminist "logic."

There was never any cat and mouse game.

Never any chance SHE would SEE AND ACCEPT your point of view.

You thought you could be the "CAT."

(If you ONLY played the game correctly.... obvious male fallacy.)

You were always, and merely, and tragically, the MOUSE.

(She defined you as the mouse at the get-go....)

Did I miss the predatory poster's feminist sense of discretion, compassion, or honor?

Well, any documentation of feminist's compassion for men would surely be real news!

Worthy of media coverage?

8:21 PM, June 13, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

dear anonymous

I am very clear on what the motivation and modus operandi of both the average female and the feminist mind is.

That is to say, briefly, feminism has developed not via the ridiculous "penis envy" of Freud, but merely due to envy of the traditional male dominant role in society which has been reflected in the more favourable treatment of boys by fathers and mothers in comparison to girls.

In my work "How the Feminists Stole Psychology" I have quoted the short biographies from a feminist web site of the "founding mothers" of modern psychology, such as Anna Freud, Karen Horney, Melanie Klein and a number of others, who all had troubled relationship with their parents - usually fathers - and felt cruelly discriminated against in comparison to usually a brother, or sometimes even a (usually more attractive) sister.

So unlike our good looking Dr Helen here, they sought to compensate for their failure to develop as feminine women by becoming ambitious, and especially in an academic and intellectual way. That seemed to be their only means to shine, and to create the "self-esteem" and "approval" they so desperately desired.

e.g. Karen Horney was rejected by both her father and brother whose love she desired, and later for example declared "school is the only true thing after all."

So the result of such admittedly unfair childhood discrimination is of course a warped and hateful mindset. Clearly as the male gender in terms of the father or other male children in the girl's family were perceived to be the offenders, it is not surprising that a number of such girls saw the cause of their problem as the whole masculine gender and the concept of maleness itself.

Such a person charged with a self-righteous sense of vengeance, then goes on to wage a war against the male gender, and as they put it "the patriarchy" which has so deeply offended them.

Naturally a mentality of hate and a sense of deep injustice tainted with a burning desire for vengeance is not a logical, cool, impartial one, so I am well aware that when I debate with someone of this mentality the argument is not going to run very well according to logic or reason.

I am well aware, that it may not be possible to get agreement, because it is not intellectual debate the other party seeks, but a means to take out their frustration on one, by attacking the perceived "hate object."

However, if upon attacking such an object the person of such an inclination does not get the hostility and condemnation back they were expecting, but rather calm cool logic, it may be that whether they admit it or not, they may reconsider their position a little.

We cannot group all women with feminist inclinations as one and the same, there are many degrees of the spectrum, some of whom are (like some men also) totally beyond hope, so damaged that they have more or less shut themselves off from feeling entirely, and live in a kind of abstract intellectual fantasyworld, which avoids any significant human relationships as the only means of preserving a relative kind of sanity based on vanity and pride - i.e. in the case of the feminist psychologists, the academic esteem they eventually received.

But to regard all women with some feminist inclinations as beyond rational discussion seems to be a hopeless defeatist position, that rules out any hope of ending this needless and unholy war between women and men.

The fact is that is it not only "feminist" women, whom we cannot win an argument with, most men cannot "win" an argument - i.e. get acceptance of their point of view from - any woman, but a "doormat" type.

So men need to look at why this is the case, and we cannot just blame women for it.

The answer is often that we are not true to our own words, we are not in fact worthy of respect.

e.g. a lazy man who doesn't bother to consider the needs of his wife in legitimately needing assistance with the child care or whatever - which even the most old-fashioned and motherly woman will need from time to time, now grandmothers and the extended family etc. have mostly gone - cannot expect to be able to start "laying down the law", because she has an unresolved grievance with him to begin with.

That is, there is a saying in the English law, on the principle of "equity", that

"he who comes to equity, must have clean hands."

So likewise must a man who seeks to expect reason from his woman partner or wife.

He really has to be a paragon of truth, consistency and virtue, or she is never going to admit he is right, even when he is right.

In short, men have lost (or arguably never truly had) women's true respect - as we might see in the case of some historical character like "El Cid" for example - so again, it's no good merely blaming the feminists for their intransigent position, we have as men to show women in general with a sense of stoic heroism, honour and loyalty why we are deserving of respect.

Fathers who out of lack of understanding or fear (more or less the same thing) neglect their daughters for example, certainly are not deserving of such a title and honour, and in a sense it is therefore these unwise men who were responsible for the birth of feminism.

That is, while the feminists can accuse men of being uncaring, unfaithful, violent, cruel of whatever, and easily find evidence of such - as indeed they can now - we can never really "win" an argument with them, except those who are able to think in a purely rational way, which by our earlier definition, we cannot see as a realistic possibility.

The only way feminism will be defeated or sidelined is when men become far more wise and understanding than they are now, and also when women like our Dr Helen here gain more prominence, so that the "wise women" who care about both genders are distinguishable from the feminists who are empowering women only to things destructive not only to men, but to children, and ultimately to themselves.

4:14 AM, June 14, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

the problem is, if you document everything like you suggested, there will be women who will use that very equality document, to penalise men, but isnt marriage a process of give and take, i may do things my love doesnt, like and she may do things i dont like. but we have come to an accomodation, but love is blind, regardless of sex, orientation, it should be bout the person. to over analyse things, will bring more contention out, to go over and over the perceived flaws of a person in the hope that you will marry. will only magnify it.


as you said "why on earth would you want to go into a marriage without any proper contract as to your rights, duties and obligations" but why should people need a contract legal of social, to be with someone they love.

the problem is people do change, what would happen if you got married and they decided to do something that wasnt on that.. would they be liable, if its a legal document. but i do agree people should talk, but not go over every single minutae. if you legalised the contracts, you will only be creating more problems, more divorces over behaviour.

5:11 AM, June 14, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

No, I think you are wrong about so many things.

Firstly, you use the word "love" as if it was something with a commonly agreed meaning.

All these divorced couples who end up hating one another once said they "loved" one another too.

What needs to be understood is that most of us are not truly capable of love, in the sense of this all powerful force that "conquers everything."

As I said, men have been murdered by wives for being fonder of playing the electric organ than spending time with them.

Where did the "love" go?

Most of us are not capable of love in the Christian sense of "loving our neighbour as ourselves" and this applies equally to marriage.

We make all kinds of unholy demands on one another and call it "love."

Love is only demonstrated by actions rather than words, as all children know, and most adults forget.

The person who loves you wants to spend time with you, they care about your problems and feeings and so on, whereas most of us only care about our own problems and feelings.

So this "love" is mostly an illusion, and that's why there is so much heartbreak.

People use and abuse each other, and that's what's going on out there, not this "true love" we have heard so much about yet seen so little evidence of in real life.

So as being an indefinable, unreliable phenomenon, as such, it is not a sensible basis to deal with marriage relationships.

I would advocate "respect" as a better basis by far.

e.g. many women respect and obey their boss at work, but they don't respct or obey their husband at home.

So if you try to compile an agreement on the basis of this love, it is so flimsy, it is like playing a lottery - you will be exceedingly lucky if you win.

But if instead we say "hey, that person is OK looking. Let's talk to them and start discussing terms. Let's see if we agree tastes and life philosophy and are therefore compatible" that would be a sensible basis.

But that doens't happen. They discuss what they both like, but it's superficial.

The numerous ISSUES that come up in a marriage - like how to discipline the children, whether he will still be allowed to go off to bars with his friends, and whether she is willing to take part in some unusual sex practice he is addicted to - don't get discussed, and then there are rows and the marriage breaks down.

Because at the present, we are all relatively immature self-centred people, we are intent on satisfying our desires, and if one party of the other isn't getting what they want out of the relationship, complaints arise, and carry on until divorce comes.

So therefore, it is just a sensible suggestion that people would be forced by custom or tradition (rather than law) to compile such an agreement, and ask one another and seek agreement on all these major issues - not remotely trivia - like if his rock climbing obsession endangering his life is going to bother her, and so on.

So all these things would be mostly not of legal effect, but just a private agreement between the two parties.

The fully legal part would cover things like property, custody of children and so on, and again, we would see by its compilation if we can even agree about such things, before a marriage.

Attorney Lauren said that in some cases she thought pre-nuptial agreements not a good idea, because it made people see "a way out."

Well, if two people want to stay together because they "love" each other, why would they want a way out?

Don't tell me, "i love you, but I don't want to live with you."

Lies, lies, lies.

We know whom we love - we don't want to let them out of our sight.

8:31 AM, June 14, 2006  
Anonymous legaleagle said...

This is the most ludicrous suggestion I have seen in a long time. Who is going to pay for the drafting out of this over the top listing. I can see it being big money for us legal eagles.

£190 a hour, yippeeee. And who polices this contract. self policing won't work because there are bound to be variations that come about.

Are you going to list the number of children you require? and what if more turn up or less as they do?

What is one of you becomes ill and the whole contract is unworkable?

Who is to dish out the spending money because obviously you will have to agree on that in the contract and the savings and pensions etc.,

This is just with one marriage or association as now they unmarried cohabitees will have exactly the same rights in law as a married couple. Where does this stop.

Will this contract have to be updated annually to take into account changes, in relationships or new hobbies being undertaken.

What a load of nonsense.

3:33 PM, June 15, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

My god legal eagle

Please heaven help me that if you are actually a "legal eagle" you do not ever represent me!

Does nobody on this blog actually ever READ what a person has written PROPERLY before commenting on it?

I have suggested only two things:

a)a fully legal document, which could even be a DIY legal agreeement (as signed and witnessed by suitable parties, and deposited with some trustworthy independent 3rd party, and therefore need not hardly cost either party a cent) which would say things like what would happen to the property (who would get the house, would it be sold off and the money split, etc.), what would happen to any children (e.g. a man might say, you could have custody of all children till age 5 if desired, and then I would want custody of male children, and you would have custody of female children), and the level of maintenance for example as a proportion of income which would be payable, or how any other major assets or savings would be split.

b) a PRIVATELY AGREED "contract" on things like who would look after the children, to what extent a man would be expected to share child care duties and household chores, if for example a woman would be willing to give up her job if she had children, or whether nannies, nurseries etc. would be considered acceptable, if a man would be willing to give up any hobbies or pursuits he has for her sake, which she may consider a threat to her security (e.g. the rock climbing, or regular drinking with buddies, etc.).

This would simply be a totally private agreement, therefore WOULD NOT COST A PENNY and need not be written down, except it might be advisable to do so, as a reference document held by both parties, to remind one another of the original agreement.

It would be "policed" by the couple themsleves.

Of course it would not be set in concrete, and a sense of tolerance and love would allow variation of the terms.

But it would

a) enable couples to get to know each other better, and agree about the terms and conditions under which they would live together instead of just coming together thoughtlessly in a blind haze of passion and desperation as so commonly happens now.

b)act as a set of ground rules, so that when situations arose - such as how to discipline children, whether to smack or not and so on - both parties would already know they are in philosophical agreement on such issues, and therefore no nasty arguments would arise over these issues, leading to strife and possible divorce.

c) could be influential if divorce happened, as it would show that one party or the other had acted against the reasonable expectations of the other.

So none of your objections about cost or "policing" are sensible or reasonable ones.

But I am delighted in fact you have decided to criticise my suggestion, because it has given me the opportunity to comment about the probable motives of ones such as yourself who flatly object to these agreements, using a variety of wholly irrelevant arguments as you have done.

For example, you said

"Are you going to list the number of children you require? and what if more turn up or less as they do?"

Firstly, I think a lot of modern couples, now there is cheap and freely available birth control, including even vasectomy, DO decide on how many children they will have.

But then there are others who have children "turn up" (e.g. by DELIBERATELY neglecting to take the contraceptive pill) against the wishes of the other party, generally speaking the husband.

For example, I know personally one man already with four children, and his wife dropped exactly this bombshell on him after several years break after the last child.

Her object was that he was not happy with her, but because he was a responsible person and was only sticking around to take care of the children until they were reasonably grown up (because she was too lazy, he was doing most of the child care) she was using another unplanned, unagreed child as a means to trap him into staying with her far beyond his desire.

This is the kind of unfair liberty taking such a contract as I am suggesting is designed to avoid.

Whilst such a contract would not necessarily prevent such an occurrence, it would show to all concerned that the woman has acted unfairly towards her partner,which is a very important issue, because though you may not necessarily win the legal battle on this, you can thereby win the moral battle, and thus save your reputation, and all will know who the guilty party really is.

There is no question in my mind that this contract would be mostly to protect men from unscupulous women,though the fully legal pre-nuptial contract could also protect women with sizeable assets from unscupulous men.

As such, both the contracts I suggest are both sensible, reasonable measures, and so then we have to look at the real reasons why people such as yourself dismiss them.

And generally speaking, those who resist these ideas simply do not want to play fair.

Two women will often have a conversation about some man one of them is going to marry such as

"what about this habit x or y or z he has? How can you marry a man who does that?"

And the engaged bride-to-be will say "oh, don't you worry about that, I WILL SOON SORT THAT OUT WHEN WE ARE MARRIED."

So this unfair and unloving assumption that a huge proportion of women make that they will change a man or impose all sorts of conditions upon him in marriage which he never expected or agreed to, is the sort of thing that happens commonly.

It is liberty taking, it is cheek, it is unfair, it is a selfish, egotistical, domineering and hypocritical position.

Equally if a man is going to expect to carry on exactly the same way he did before, partying, staying out late, going off on long trips away from her etc., that too is unreasonable, so should have been discussed before marriage and agreed approximate terms upon.

Or if it turns out he has some perverse sexual demand on her (and what is perverse is debatable, e.g. some men seem to demand oral sex as if it were a right, when many women hate it), then that too has to be discussed, or he is dropping a bombshell on her.

But men and women are scared that if they reveal themselves as they really are, and how they will behave in marriage, the other party would never consent.

Well, yes, they might be right, in which case, they probably shouldn't marry any way, as it likely won't last.

So that is why couples should be forced by custom or tradition to do this - it can't really be law as such, because as you rightly said, it can't necessarily be policed by others, because some of the issues involved would be too private and personal, but e.g. the stuff on sex need not be written down, just discussed and agreed.

But as I have said in my book on this subject, many people such as yourself will come up with one thousand and one arguments why this is not sensible, and can't be done.

And they are the ones who will not play fair, they are the ones who want to sneakily entrap a man into marriage, and then start manipulating him and making his life a misery, behaving in all kinds of ways he never anticipated and never agreed to, such as having children without his consent, before he is ready to have them and so on.

So this is about fairness to one another and honesty in relationships, and anyone who resists these ideas like yourself is obviously against those concept of fairness, mutual respect and justice in relationships and marriage.

So please feel free to criticise some more if you wish, and I shall take great pleasure in pointing out further aspects of your Machiavellian resistance to a just, sensible and decent policy, fair to both genders.

3:20 AM, June 16, 2006  
Anonymous legal eagle said...

I am a real legal eagle and deal regularly with messes that couples get themselves into, with or without agreements.

I must admit that the most aggressive parties tend to be the females, but I cannot see what the difference a piece of paper drawn up between themselves can achieve as it will not be enforceable anyway.

I do believe that people should get to know each other properly before diving headfirst into unsuitable matches (of which there are now many).

The worst victims in these associations are the children they have that are used as pawns in their arguments to get more than the other person.

But all I can see with this new contract business is taking the romance and special feelings that should be there simply into a business arrangement.

You can put what you want down on paper but you don't have to abide by it.

It would help more if mothers were mothers in the true sense of the word, unfortunately nurseries and putting them with sometime unsuitable people simply to go out to work to get more money rather than to put the child and the family unit first.

As for unexpected children these are not always as you put it got for a trap to keep someone with them. It takes two to tango and he has just as much responsibilty about whether they have more children or not.

I doubt very much these days that people or very few people expect to stay with someone for life, its too easy to change partners.

3:39 PM, June 16, 2006  
Anonymous Sam Fryman said...

Apologies Leagle Eagle

It is now clear that you are an understanding and considerate person.

Apart from the serious legal pre-nuptial part about property, child custody and finances, it's not so much about a piece of paper.

I am not advocating anything very specific in terms of a document, but just some kind of process that causes both parties to think deeply and seriously about their coming together.

The main object really is to sober up men who dont think realistically but too romantically, and start thinking about their prospective partner as a personality, and what the relationship is really going to develop into.

Equally, it should help women think about their prospective partner as a human being also, instead of just an easily despisable sex-crazed beast who is likewise easily manipulable.

It is the exercise of trying to compile such an agreement which is the issue, as a preventative measure, to reveal an unreasonable partner to someone who previously imagined that the person they wanted to marry had the sunlight shine out of their orificies as we are all far too tempted to believe.

Because as you rightly said, it doesn't matter in the ultimate sense if a man and woman abuse each other, but when they place children into that battlefield who didn't ask for it, and make them pawns of their conflict this is the most awful and cruel thing.

So it is more a question of statistics than law, in that such care and attention in putting together a relationship would obviously lead to less problems later on.

As far as changing life partners is concerned, how can it really matter that much if children are not involved?

But most times they are, and that's when it becomes problematic.

People change partners under the illusion that the person they move on to will be better than the last one.

But oftentimes, if we were attracted enough to or "loved" the person we were first with , it's not likely the next person will be any better, unless we married very foolishly in youth, before we were really much formed as a personality.

So mostly the problem is in ourselves, and it is that which causes the moving on to a new partner, because we imagine that with someone else things will work out better, though they rarely do, because we imagine the relationship failure is their fault, not ours.

So I think this is the real problem.

We aren't happy with ourselves when we are alone, but we think as soon as we get that other person in our lives we will be.

But they are thinking the same, and we both discover sooner or later, that happiness is not a gift that one can give to another person like a christmas cake.

So the mistake is expecting too much from the other party. We have to realise that if there is any happiness in the world, we have to find it in our own soul and self.

But right now, almost nobody thinks that way, so they continually blame the other person, as if they had a magic wand to make their partner happy.

So sadly, when most people marry, that is what will happen to them regardless of all other factors.

They will say "why am I not happy?" and then blame the other partner for any of countless reasons.

But they forget, they weren't a happy person before they married, and as we have said, blame the other person in the relationship for a state of unhappiness that they didn't cause and aren't responsible for.

That is one reason why marriages used to last in former eras when religious beliefs were part of the average life.

Neither party actually believed that lasting happiness was possible on planet earth.

So they were less expectant of it, and accepted life was going to be tough a lot of the time instead of always a bowl of cherries.

When we are in a relationship - as even you and I are in this small way - we tend to see ourselves in the mirror of that relationship.

the other person shows us our weaknesses and limitations and it hurts.

Don't imagine I was 100% happy about how I replied to you last, I am constantly displeased with myself in one way or another, I always think - "I could have been kinder and wiser towards that person."

so really, the point is, we have two kinds of people generally speaking in the world.

the kind considerate understanding people, which despite my earlier overzealous judgement of you, I now feel you to be, and then we have the less kind, advantage taking people.

So I was just trying to say to the kind fair people:

"look, don't be too flattered or hypnotised by this beautiful woman or handsome man who is ready to marry you."

They may have dark motives, ones which will make your life a torment if you join yourself to them.

so take some precuations.

Say to them once marriage or living together bcomes an issue:

"let's really try hard to imagine what us living together would be like. What would you expect of me? will you be happy to lie in bed on a saturday morning, and hope that I have done the dishes and so on before you get up?"

will you forbid my friends, and go all possessive so I don't have any life apart from you, and feel trapped?

Let's be specific...do you mind if my girlfriend stays with us now and then and visits a few times a week?

do you mind if my mother does the same?

We have to base a society on gentleness and kindness, and consideration, or else we'll all end up killing one another.

So my message is really to the gentle and kind and fair, to say - hey, stop walking into volcanoes, properly check out a prospective partner, don't walk into disastrous relationships with incompatible people.

Then, there will be less divorces, men and women will as the guy above someplace well said marry their best friend.

Men and women should think first about being friends, best friends even, and if you don't feel that way about the other person, then yes, as you say, it won't last, you'll keep looking and looking, and likely never settle any place.

Before we can become happily married, we have to know how to be a friend, and then to find one.

I want to thank you for giving such a considerate reply Leagle Eagle, you really made my day, and I hope that our discussion has been some use to you and anyone else who cares to view this page.

best wishes

Sam F.

8:00 PM, June 16, 2006  
Blogger Elam Bend said...

One summer of law school I worked for an attorney who specialized in benefits and Personal Injury. Every now and then we would adjudicate the divorces of his often hapless clients. We were preparing to go to one once when he told me, "Most divorce cases are the same. Each person just wants to tell their story about why the other sucks, then they argue over trinkets in an attempt to screw the other one. This one will be particularly sad because they don't own anything of real value so they'll be arguing over junk like cookie jars." He was right about the cookie jars (worthless, but fought for tooth and nail) and he was right about wanting to tell a story. I've noticed that it's been true in just about every divorce I've observed.

10:24 AM, June 18, 2006  
Blogger One Man Laughing said...

I'll have to come back and read all the comments -- just want to say that I really enjoyed this particular podcast, and I've listened to most of the others.  Keep it up (please)!

11:42 PM, June 18, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Exercising more selectivity in choosing a partner is something EVERYONE can agree with.

However, A legal document wherther it be DIY or not, will just exacerbate any tension that may arise.

The laws is an ass. Mixing it in with personal relationships is a disastrous idea.

7:02 AM, December 02, 2006  
Blogger look said...

情趣用品,
性感睡衣,
免費視訊聊天,
視訊交友網,
美姬圖影,
情境坊歡愉用品,
花美姬情趣用品,
成人圖片,
臺灣情色網,
嘟嘟情人色網,
色情網站,
情境坊歡愉用品,
徵信,
徵信公司,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信,
抓姦,
徵信,
外遇,
徵信,
徵信社,
徵信社,
抓姦,
徵信社,
徵信社,
徵信社,
,
,
整型,
視訊聊天,
視訊交友,
AV女優,
色情,
A片,
A片,
情趣用品,
情色,
A片,
色情影片,
情趣用品,
A片,
AV女優,
視訊聊天室,
聊天,
情趣用品,
情惑用品性易購,
情侶歡愉用品,
A片,
情趣,
情惑用品性易購,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,
寄情築園小遊戲,
aio交友愛情館,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
情趣用品,
徵信社,
情趣用品,
A片,
美女視訊,
色情A片,
AV女優,
A片,
辣妹視訊,
自慰套,
情侶歡愉用品,

12:17 AM, March 15, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

2008真情寫真aa片免費看捷克論壇微風論壇大眾論壇plus論壇080視訊聊天室情色視訊交友90739美女交友-成人聊天室色情小說做愛成人圖片區豆豆色情聊天室080豆豆聊天室 小辣妹影音交友網台中情人聊天室桃園星願聊天室高雄網友聊天室新中台灣聊天室中部網友聊天室嘉義之光聊天室基隆海岸聊天室中壢網友聊天室南台灣聊天室南部聊坊聊天室台南不夜城聊天室南部網友聊天室屏東網友聊天室台南網友聊天室屏東聊坊聊天室雲林網友聊天室大學生BBS聊天室網路學院聊天室屏東夜語聊天室孤男寡女聊天室一網情深聊天室心靈饗宴聊天室流星花園聊天室食色男女色情聊天室真愛宣言交友聊天室情人皇朝聊天室上班族成人聊天室上班族f1影音視訊聊天室哈雷視訊聊天室080影音視訊聊天室38不夜城聊天室援交聊天室080080哈啦聊天室台北已婚聊天室已婚廣場聊天室 夢幻家族聊天室摸摸扣扣同學會聊天室520情色聊天室QQ成人交友聊天室免費視訊網愛聊天室愛情公寓免費聊天室拉子性愛聊天室柔情網友聊天室哈啦影音交友網哈啦影音視訊聊天室櫻井莉亞三點全露寫真集123上班族聊天室尋夢園上班族聊天室成人聊天室上班族080上班族聊天室6k聊天室粉紅豆豆聊天室080豆豆聊天網新豆豆聊天室080聊天室免費音樂試聽流行音樂試聽免費aa片試看免費a長片線上看色情貼影片免費a長片

7:26 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger mmbox said...

本土成人貼圖站大台灣情色網台灣男人幫論壇A圖網嘟嘟成人電影網火辣春夢貼圖網情色貼圖俱樂部台灣成人電影絲襪美腿樂園18美女貼圖區柔情聊天網707網愛聊天室聯盟台北69色情貼圖區38女孩情色網台灣映像館波波成人情色網站美女成人貼圖區無碼貼圖力量色妹妹性愛貼圖區日本女優貼圖網日本美少女貼圖區亞洲風暴情色貼圖網哈啦聊天室美少女自拍貼圖辣妹成人情色網台北女孩情色網辣手貼圖情色網AV無碼女優影片男女情色寫真貼圖a片天使俱樂部萍水相逢遊戲區平水相逢遊戲區免費視訊交友90739免費視訊聊天辣妹視訊 - 影音聊天網080視訊聊天室日本美女肛交美女工廠貼圖區百分百貼圖區亞洲成人電影情色網台灣本土自拍貼圖網麻辣貼圖情色網好色客成人圖片貼圖區711成人AV貼圖區台灣美女貼圖區筱萱成人論壇咪咪情色貼圖區momokoko同學會視訊kk272視訊情色文學小站成人情色貼圖區嘟嘟成人網嘟嘟情人色網 - 貼圖區免費色情a片下載台灣情色論壇成人影片分享免費視訊聊天區微風 成人 論壇kiss文學區taiwankiss文學區

7:26 AM, March 22, 2009  
Blogger 平平 said...

^^ nice blog!! ^@^

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信社, 感情挽回, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 挽回感情, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信, 捉姦, 徵信公司, 通姦, 通姦罪, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 捉姦, 監聽, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 外遇問題, 徵信, 捉姦, 女人徵信, 女子徵信, 外遇問題, 女子徵信, 外遇, 徵信公司, 徵信網, 外遇蒐證, 抓姦, 抓猴, 捉猴, 調查跟蹤, 反跟蹤, 感情挽回, 挽回感情, 婚姻挽回, 挽回婚姻, 外遇沖開, 抓姦, 女子徵信, 外遇蒐證, 外遇, 通姦, 通姦罪, 贍養費, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信公司, 女人徵信,

徵信, 徵信網, 徵信社, 徵信網, 外遇, 徵信, 徵信社, 抓姦, 徵信, 女人徵信, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信公司, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 女人徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 女子徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社,

徵信, 徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 外遇, 抓姦, 離婚, 外遇,離婚,

徵信社,徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信,徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社, 徵信社,徵信,徵信, 徵信, 外遇, 抓姦

2:07 AM, March 30, 2009  
Blogger nini said...

85cc免費影城 愛情公寓正妹牆川藏第一美女 成人影片 情色交友網 美女視訊 美女視訊 視訊情人高雄網 JP成人影城 383成人影城 aa片免費a片下載 a片線上看aa片免費看 ※a片線上試看※sex520免費影片※ aa片免費看 BT成人論壇 金瓶影片交流區 自拍美女聊天室 aa片免費a片下載 SEX520免費影片 免費a片 日本美女寫真集 sex520aa免費影片 sex520aa免費影片 BT成人網 Hotsee免費視訊交友 百分百貼影片區 SEX520免費影片 免費視訊聊天室 情人視訊高雄網 星光情色討論版 正妹牆 383成人影城 線上85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 85cc免費影城 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 免費視訊聊天室 85cc免費影片 85cc免費影片 080苗栗人聊天室 080苗栗人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 080中部人聊天室 免費a片下載 免費a片 AA片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 aa片免費看 日本av女優影片 av女優 av女優無碼影城 av女優 av女優 百分百成人圖片 百分百成人圖片 視訊情人高雄網 電話交友 影音電話交友 絕色影城 絕色影城 夜未眠成人影城 夜未眠成人影城 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 色咪咪影片網 免費色咪咪貼影片 免費色咪咪貼影片 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 色情遊戲 影音視訊交友網 視訊交友網 080視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊聊天室 成人影音視訊聊天室 ut影音視訊聊天室 ※免費視訊聊天室※ 視訊ukiss聊天室視訊ukiss聊天室 視訊交友90739 視訊交友90739 情人視訊網 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 168視訊美女 視訊美女館 視訊美女館 免費視訊美女網 小高聊天室 小高聊天室 aio交友聊天室 aio交友聊天室 交友聊天室 交友聊天室 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 線上a片 免費線上a片 免費線上a片 嘟嘟成人網站 成人漫畫 情色文學 嘟嘟成人網 成人貼圖區 情色文學成人小說 微風成人區 情色貼圖區 免費視訊聊天 免費成人圖片區 愛情公寓 愛情公寓聊天室 寄情築園小遊戲 免費aa片線上看 aa片免費看 情色SXE聊天室 SEX情色遊戲 色情A片 免費下載 av女優 俱樂部 情色論壇 辣妹視訊 情色貼圖網 免費色情 聊天室 情人視訊聊天室 免費a片成人影城 免費a片-aa片免費看 0204貼圖區 SEX情色 交友聊天-線上免費 女優天堂 成人交友網 成人情色貼圖區 18禁 -女優王國 080視訊美女聊天室 080視訊聊天室 視訊交友90739 免費a片 aio 視訊交友網 成人影城-免費a片※免費視訊聊天※85cc免費影片日本線上免費a片 免費色咪咪影片免費色咪咪影片aaa片免費看影片aaa片免費看成人影城免費色咪咪影片

1:58 PM, April 05, 2009  
Blogger 123456 said...

广州托盘复合托盘食品托盘天津木托盘胶合板托盘蜂窝纸托盘塑木托盘熏蒸木托盘木制托盘广东塑料托盘钢托盘钢制托盘栈板塑料栈板木栈板垫仓板托盘包装求购托盘天津托盘温州托盘山东托盘北京托盘上海木托盘塑胶托盘卡板纸卡板塑料卡板手推车推车机场手推车好孩子手推车液压手推车超市手推车医用手推车康贝手推车不锈钢手推车平板车电动平板车老虎车静音手推车平板手推车小推车模具架置物架堆垛架巧固架整理架物料整理架挂板架整理柜零件柜零件整理柜文件整理柜仓储笼仓库笼料箱塑料箱钢制料箱货箱整理箱塑料整理箱周转箱塑料周转箱防静电周转箱求购周转箱物流箱物料盒零件盒塑料零件盒卡板箱周转筐塑料周转筐周转箩登高车物流台车台车密集架档案密集架文件柜办公文件柜北京文件柜广州文件柜上海文件柜南京文件柜深圳文件柜钢制文件柜铁皮文件柜档案柜文件柜厂底图柜档案柜鞋柜储物柜更衣柜防火防磁柜防磁柜防火防磁文件柜图书架资料柜工具柜

5:10 AM, April 13, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 吉澤明步QQ美女視訊秀 85cc免費影片aa影片下載城sex免費成人影片aaa片免費看短片美女視訊 sex383線上娛樂場av969 免費短片日本免費視訊aa影片下載城視訊網愛聊天室影音視訊交友 咆哮小老鼠分享論壇sex520免費影片aa免費影片下載城aio辣妺視訊 aio辣妹交友愛情館 jp成人影片aio交友愛情館馬子免費影片免費線上a片18成人85cc影城0204movie免費色咪咪視訊網pc交友s383視訊玩美女人34c高雄視訊聊天jp成人免費視訊辣妹 kk777視訊俱樂部xxxpandalive173影音視訊聊天室 sex520-卡通影片成人免費視訊 完美女人13060 免費視訊聊天sexy girl video movie辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室UT視訊美女交友視訊情色網百事無碼a片dvd線上aa片免費看18禁成人網ut聊天室kk俱樂部視訊激情網愛聊天 情人小魔女自拍卡通aa片免費看夜未眠成人影城aio性愛dvd辣妹影片直播拓網視訊交友視訊聊天室ggoo168論壇視訊辣妹love104影音live秀 美女show-live視訊情色yam交友辣妹妹影音視訊聊天室s383情色大網咖視訊aaa俱樂部台灣情色網無碼avdvdsexy diamond sex888入口Show-live視訊聊天室

4:28 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

免費 a 片aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部dodo豆豆聊天室sex520網路自拍美女聊天室天堂免費線上avdvd援交av080影片aa影片下載城aaa片免費看短片成人圖片區18成人avooogo2av免費影片sexdiy影城免費線上成人影片bonbonsex0951影片下載日本av女優sex888免費看影片免費視訊78論壇辣妹有約辣妹no31314視訊dudu sex免費影片avdvd情色影片免費色咪咪影片網av080免費試看日本美女寫真集辣妹脫衣麻將視訊聊天室性福免費影片分享日本美女寫真集,kk視訊aio交友愛情館免費成人美女視訊bt論壇色情自拍免費a片卡通tw 18 net卡通18美少女圖色情漫畫777美女小護士免費 aa 片試看百分百成人情色圖片a片免費觀賞sexy girls get fuckedsexy girl video movie情色文學成人小說sex888免費看eyny 伊莉論壇sexdiy影城自拍情色0204movie免費影片aio免費aa片試看s383情色大網咖sexy girl video movie草莓牛奶AV論壇台灣論壇18禁遊戲區環球辣妹聊天室 90691拓網aio交友愛情館拓網學生族視訊777美女 sex888影片分享區hi5 tv免費影片aa的滿18歲卡通影片sex383線上娛樂場sexdiy影城免費a片線上觀看真人美女辣妹鋼管脫衣秀比基尼辣妹一夜情視訊aio交友愛情館

4:28 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 天天看正妹 said...

小魔女免費影城免費看 aa的滿18歲影片sex383線上娛樂場kk777視訊俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片85cc免費影片a片免費看A片-sex520視訊聊天室v6 0plus論壇sex520免費影片avdvd-情色網qq美美色網ut13077視訊聊天A片-無碼援交東京熱一本道aaa免費看影片免費視訊聊天室微風成人免費視訊聊天 ut聊天室av1688影音視訊天堂免費 a 片85cc免費影城亞洲禁果影城微風成人av論壇sex520免費影片JP成人網免費成人視訊aaa影片下載城免費a片 ut交友成人視訊85cc成人影城免費A片aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片85cc免費影片aaa片免費看短片aa影片下載城aaaaa片俱樂部影片aaaaa片俱樂部aa的滿18歲影片小魔女免費影片台灣論壇免費影片後宮0204movie免費影片免費卡通影片線上觀看線上免費a片觀看85cc免費影片免費A片aa影片下載城ut聊天室辣妹視訊UT影音視訊聊天室 日本免費視訊aaaa 片俱樂部aaaa片免費看影片免費視訊78論壇情色偷拍免費A片免費aaaaa片俱樂部影片aa影片下載城色漫畫帝國av俱樂部aaaa彩虹頻道免費影片 杜蕾斯成人免費卡通影片線上觀看85cc免費影片線上觀賞免費線上歐美A片觀看免費a片卡通aaa的滿18歲卡通影片sex520免費影片免費 a 片

4:28 AM, April 14, 2009  
Blogger 1314 said...

視訊做愛視訊美女無碼A片情色影劇kyo成人動漫tt1069同志交友網ut同志交友網微風成人論壇6k聊天室日本 avdvd 介紹免費觀賞UT視訊美女交友..........................

10:49 PM, May 19, 2009  
Blogger 1122 said...

999成人站999成人站aio 網路交友愛情館aio 網路交友愛情館聊天室交友聊天室交友聊天室交友聊天室交友聊天室交友聊天室尋夢園聊天室尋夢園聊天室尋夢園聊天室尋夢園聊天室尋夢園聊天室ut聊天室ut聊天室ut聊天室ut聊天室ut聊天室找一夜聊天室找一夜聊天室找一夜聊天室找一夜聊天室找一夜

11:12 PM, June 07, 2009  

Post a Comment

<< Home