Friday, March 31, 2006

Hey Mom, Can You Do the Wash?

So now a third of all men 22-34 are living at home with little motivation to do much of anything (thanks to the reader who emailed me this story).

This phenomenon cuts across all demographics. You'll find it in families both rich and poor; black, white, Asian and Hispanic; urban, suburban and rural. According to the Census Bureau, fully one-third of young men ages 22 to 34 are still living at home with their parents -- a roughly 100 percent increase in the past 20 years. No such change has occurred with regard to young women. Why?


Maybe this is what happens when you motivate boys and men by telling them that they are the cause of the world's problems.

Update: The Boys Project that is mentioned in the Washington Post article actually looks like it addresses some salient issues for boys such as suicide and the negative messages boys hear about their sex.

87 Comments:

Blogger Dave said...

Laundry? Who does laundry? When my clothes are dirty, I just throw them out and buy new ones....

9:02 AM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Nick said...

Yeah, I was just reading an email newsletter I got that said (don't remember the exact stat) that some huge amount of women are entrepreneurs as opposed to men. Nothing wrong with that, if the men were out there doing cool things of their own. But they're not, and the trend is pretty ominous. One thing I'm observing--that of course you've talked about here Dr. H--is that women socialize each other, form clubs, etc., and men aren't having that infrastructure.

9:56 AM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Half Sigma said...

There's an amazingly simple explanation for all this, just read my blog post to find the answer.

10:25 AM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

What are you saying, it's the women's fault now for men not taking responsibility for their lives? Give me a break.

I'm no rabid feminist, but at the same time, making excuses for men who don't assume responsibilities is wrong. Women are aspiring to have careers, families... and men have such ennui that all they aspire to is sex and video games? I call bullshit. And women are to blame for that?

No wonder we'll never bridge the gender gap.

I refuse to think that it's all women's fault when men don't rise to challenges, and don't provide strong role models for younger men that aren't misogynistic.

Males need to see what good MEN are like, not these boys in adult bodies.

10:30 AM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe that as more and more of the ingrained contempt for all things male gets discussed, as the plethora of programs and scholarships that benefit only women are discussed, as preferential hiring practices are discussed in terms of real-world effects on the CURRENT generation are exposed and discussed, there will be PLENTY of things that can quickly and simply be done to benefit boys.

Sadly, my generation will (again) find itself as being the one that receives little in the way of fairness, or oppertunity.

10:39 AM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

I don't know the answer to this issue but I don't think it's as simple as Half Sigma suggests. Declining college attendance rates and more young men living at home could be a choice, as some commenters suggest. Maybe more of today's young men are just slackers but I don't see why that's the first choice in looking for answers. As the linked article suggests, there are many possible reasons including health-related issues. Let me suggest one health-related possibility that affects four times as many boys as girls.

Did you know that autism is a spectrum disorder? Milder forms include hyperactivity, attention deficit disorder, dyslexia, and stuttering. I know a lot of boys that fit in these categories.

10:47 AM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Part of this may be that it everything is so expensive these days and a few things, housing being one, have out paced inflation. Several younger guys I've known lived with their parents for a while after graduating college in order to save up to buy a house.

Also the increasing divorce rate, who usually moves out in a divorce situation (the man) and where does he usually go initially (to his parents). I have a friend just recently in that situation. Had been married for over 10 years but now living with his parents.

Nick - one, politically incorrect, explanation concerning the large number of women entrepreneurs may be that many of these women have financially secure husbands to fall back on if needed. (I read this somewhere many years ago.) This certainly fits many (not all) of the female entrepreneurs I know. Indeed, I could give a lot of anecdotal evidence on this but a search of Yahoo didn't turn up much addressing this issue.

12:25 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Alan said...

Helen says in her positing..

Maybe this is what happens when you motivate boys and men by telling them that they are the cause of the world's problems.

Isn't this sort of conclusion just another way of more or less agreeing with the Self-esteem movement? Or was that your intention (but you disagree with the movement's methods, not aim)?

12:26 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Here is a survey from the Small Business Administration which supports the husband to fall back on thesis.

Marriage has starkly differing effects on entrepreneurship
by men and women. Although marriage reduces the probability of
self­employment for young men, it substantially increases
the probability of self­employment for women.
This supports the traditional view of the family in
which the husband's primary employment enables the wife to pursue
riskier secondary employment. Divorce reverses such prospects,
given increased child­care responsibilities and reduced per
capita income faced by women. Although marriage is a negative
influence on entry into self­employment for men, it is positively
correlated with entrepreneurial success for both genders.


Also women may be leaving the nest earlier because they tend to marry earlier in live.

1:05 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

With friends like these ...

34 year old men are boys ?

The girls are driven; the boys have no direction ?

Is it appropriate to assume that a 30+ year old and 22 year old are living with their family for the same reasons ?
- is this really a coherent cohort ?

If the man is married, is his wife lazy too ?
______________________________________________________________________

I'm 36 and among my male friends there are a few peter-pan types, and a few guys who just can't get it together, but of those currently living w/ family, or who have lived with family since their early twenties, few resemble the stereotypes being promoted. Not everyone's life proceeds by the conventions of the upper middle class.

What about divorced men w/ kids to support - or those saving for a house so that they can get married - or responsible for older parents a/o a family business - what if they're married and want to live w/ extended family? I'd personally lived with my father for several years so that he could remain independent into his 80's.

1:09 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

ok, nick, men used to have clubs just for men, but women said oh its sexist, thats how the male patriarchy controls us poor women, lets ban all men only clubs, then these women go and make women only gyms, women only courses, women only women only..

anonymouse 10.30. you get told all men are rapists, you get told you cant go for this job coz you are a man, when you get divorced you get turned into the walking wallet, 40 years of being told your worthless or a rapist or worse, and you will see what it does to men.

i am penalised due to my penis. it happens everywhere, look around you and you will see men getting the rough end of the deal. i want to move out, but with house prices in the UK hitting $200,000 for a 1 bed house. and the average wage is $30,000. without expenses.

but women with kids, single mothers they can walk into a house no problem, and get a lot of things paid for them. men get the worst of it all.

2:36 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Half Sigma said...

We're at the top of a huge housing bubble, housing has never been more expensive, and that includes rent. Of course it varies by where you live, but few young people can afford to live on their own in New York City (where a studio apartment can cost more than $2000) unless their parents are helping to pay the rent. WHY is it surpising that more young people are living at home in the face of rising housing prices?

Rising housing prices is like a huge transfer of wealth from the younger generation to the older generation (which owns houses they bought before prices went up).

Women are making more money relative to men, so relative to men they are now more likely to live on their own than they were a generation ago.

This is simply a money issue.

2:52 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

half i would say yes, mostly.

women are now marrying to expect when it goes wrong (and some encourage it).. they can claim so much.

but men are saying why should we go out get a job, get married have kids, then they divorce me and leave me with nothing. theres no point, thats why there is a marriage strike, why get married when these leeches attack. (there are of course exceptions i am getting married myself)

2:59 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Darren Blacksmith said...

Women have extra motivations and opportunities to move out of the family home.

Firstly, women will more often have older boyfriends in their 30s who already own a house, and will move in with him.

Secondly, young women can have a child on their own then claim a government provided/subsidised property.

Thirdly, whereas most young men are quite happy to live quietly in a bedroom of the family home, surfing the net and playing video games, the typical young woman will want to get out so that she can go night-clubbing and bring men back without her parents 'judging' her.

There is also the fact that most women will feel more secure in buying a property than men will, as they are not faced with the posibility of loosing it after a relationship break up.

Women also are more likely to be able to take financial risks as they are more likely to have a boyfriend who will support them financially if things go wrong.

Young women are also more motivated to go to university and study today's bullshit politically correct courses because they are all designed to appeal to them, and their non-competitive, inclusive, wishy-washy thinking.

Then there is the fact that many women have the expectation in the back of their minds that they can 'retire' from work around age 30 to have children and get some man to support them. Its easier to muster a lot of energy to put into a career at the beginning if its going to last about 10 years (3+ of which will be in college) than if its going to definitely last 50 years. And thanks to the increase in working women and the increase in divorce and the death of the family .. a man's wages do not go so far in buying a property as they used to.

Lastly, young men see the matriarchal workplace and dont value success within it enough to put in the work neccessary to succeed in it.

3:07 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen wrote:

"Maybe this is what happens when you motivate boys and men by telling them that they are the cause of the world's problems."

Possible.

And maybe it is what happens when you create weenies by telling them they are poor little victims in an unfair society.

4:05 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger gs said...

Helen, I salute your efforts regarding the human rights and human potential of males in our society.

These aimless live-at-home young men might go in the service to find themselves. It's not for everyone and it's not a panacea, but I'm glad I did it. A caveat is that the (expletives deleted) Bush administration has recalled a few thousand people to active duty after their regular enlistments were over, whereas I was able to serve my tour and get on with my life. After my hitch, I succeeded in a prolonged and risky graduate program to which I'd been unwilling to commit right out of college.

4:09 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

Again, it seems to me that there are many reasons why men may be moving back home. I haven't seen anyone mention that the parents might be the cause of this phenomenon. My next door neighbors have 2 post-college age children. Both parents have college degrees and professional jobs. Their daughter got her nursing degree and is now working as a nurse. Their son got his GED, moved out for a year, and is now back home. He's been home for 2 years and it looks like he may be here awhile. He has a very nice lifestyle: No expenses, a nice car and allowance, he doesn't work so he has loads of free time, and he has plenty of friends. Based on this one anecdote, I'm not prepared to say all men who live at home are lazy. In fact, in my neighbor's case, I can tell you without hesitation that the parents raised their son to end up this way. No expectations, no rules, lots of self-esteem. They expected more from their daughter and they got it.

There are thousands of stories out there. Some men may return home for financial reasons, as Half Sigma suggests; or to help aging parents; or it may be that they don't have the necessary education and skills to compete in the marketplace; or for some of the reasons Dadvocate persuasively suggests. Perhaps men are being discriminated against or passed over for jobs by employers who want to increase their hiring of women or specific minorities. Some young men may simply be aimless and lazy as some commenters suggest.

I hope this will be researched by someone who wants more than a PC answer, but I'm afraid too many don't care if men are disadvantaged or at risk.

4:10 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

anonymous 4.05 then why arent women like that, they are being told they are victims, all the time and its the fault of men.

women whinge and somehow, it turns into they deserve better, and boys are told you deserve nothing.

just reverse that statement

"And maybe it is what happens when you create weenies by telling them they are poor little victims in an unfair society." oh wait it could have been written about women, a few years ago..

4:18 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

I don't know why women aren't hanging with Mommy and Daddy watching American Idol after dinner. Why should we expect men and women would react the same way?

Anonymous 4:05

4:59 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

coz women expect to land a husband and have kids and be set for life. preferably a rich husband. they have more options than men, marry, have kids, divorce men, go to work, have kids, still go to work. etc etc etc..

men have 1 option, work, or marry and divorced and get screwed. just imagine 40 years of being told your worthless. and men thinking whats the point, we are worthless, no matter what we do we are considered scum, so, sod this. i am not going to do anything, if i do something, i would only get the shaft.

5:38 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Michael Farris said...

It must be very gratifying for men to be able to come here and find out that all their problems are those uppity women after all.

6:23 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous total1087 said...

I'd like to throw in my anecdotal evidence in here - I live with and know quite a few guys that fit this description - still living with mom and dad in this age bracket. From my experience these guys are raised that way. Most, if not all, of these guys have parents/siblings/relatives that bend over backwards for them, so there's no reason for these guys to gain anything more than what they have. If mom and dad can't afford them, then they live a coddled lifestyle with their married siblings or rich relatives all the while their folks spending money on them anyway. What I have noticed in my anecdotal evidence though, is that with each of these guys, there is a whole lot of co-dependency going on between them and their family situations. Neither one of them can hold steady jobs, and they have no reason to hold healthy friendships w/ other people - all their wants are provided within their dysfunctional family structure. Heck, I have only one friendship out of these guys (the rest fell apart when I learned that these dead weights wouldn't reciprocate), and it's about to fall apart since I told the guy that I might be moving out-of-state.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with it, but with each of these guys, their mothers treat them with respect as friends. IIRC, I've learned on Vox Day's site that wives and girlfriends are supposed to do that - mothers are supposed to disrespect their sons. When fathers do exist with these guys, they're either apathetic towards their son's independence, they're adult-children themselves, or they want to maintain peace w/ their wife by allowing their son (and wife with her family, in one case) to still live at home.

8:11 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger angryharry said...

If I may, Dr Helen, ...

http://tinyurl.com/rydbx

9:09 PM, March 31, 2006  
Blogger Wanderingmind said...

You know once again people are trying to attach a single cause to a problem. Problems do not come into existance that way. Problems occur because there is a variety of causes that combine to incrementally create the problem.

Have men been told they are rapists and not worth anything? Yes... thats worth maybe a one percent increase in this problem.

Have men been told they have to be more feminine and in touch with their feelings? Yes.. maybe another percentage point increase in the problem.

And so on and so on. We can probably come up with 10 or so causes that have contributed to this problem. Each one is worth maybe one or two percent increases in this problem. Only when you add them all up do they become a significant problem.

So yes, there has been a trend towards degrading men in one way or another and enhancing women at the same time. And like all societal trends, it takes years to actually be noticable. And the only real fix is to change that trend and spend years trying to achieve a better balance.

10:24 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

WanderingMind,

Men may be told lots of things, but they are all free to say, "Bullshit." It's easy.

11:56 PM, March 31, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am 22 and still live at home. I earned two bachelor's degrees (Finance and Economics) in December, but haven't found a job in my field yet. I have a job that pays $8 an hour. I would gladly move out if I could afford to. I do my own laundry, even though I probably don't use all the correct methods. I am just thankful my parents have not forced me out yet. I am the oldest child. My younger sister is married and lives at our grandparents house (they moved away temporarily).

12:23 AM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I believe in Europe it is common for men and women to stay with their parents into their late 20s.

12:26 AM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

I would also hesitate to blame "society" for the actions of young men.

There's a lot of people fitting their pet theories onto this statistic, and not very convincingly. But heck, why shouldn't I do that, too? My credentials: 4 sons, 4 brothers, 3 brothers-in-law. My gut prejudice: many men expected to find wives who would care for the "details" of their lives -- like food and clothing. They were encouraged in this by their mothers. Being unable to find a wife willing to take the job, they reverted back to Mom, who complains, but still does it. Learned helplessness. They could do it if they chose.

12:31 AM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

wanderingMind: YES! We cannot find a single answer as to why males are not doing too good. There is no single answer.

DrHelen:

Yes! I'd bet everything I have and everything I ever will have that telling all males that we are the source of all the world's problems is a big part of the problem.

A direct side effect of this telling is that we are killing off a goodly proportion of the 1 in 5 men who think like women. Such men have women's emotions and do not take at all well to the hate which is the heart of today's culture.

Annonymous: You forget that not all men are capable of thinking like you. To the 1 in 5 men who think like a woman your thinking is anathema (or worse).

ALL:

Look, when we started the modern women's movement in the mid-1960's we knew, knew beyond doubt, that there would be unintended consequences for the males. We knew there would be side effects and those side effects might hurt males and/or females.

So? Now we see some of those unintended consequences exactly as we knew we would. Now we start to look at the side effects, we knew they'd be there.

The BIG problem, and it's a whopper, is we have two groups in society who DEMAND that there be no consequences or side effects:

- we have women who demand it cannot be women's fault! Demand loudly too. Why? Why couldn't it be? Women are people. Women aren't saints ... just people. Bet everything you have that some part of the current men's problem is women's fault.

- we have men who DEMAND that hurt men suck it up and take it like a man. Why? Is unfairness supposed to be attached to the Y chromosome? The Y does a lot of things, one thing it doesn't do is say that hurting and worse men are non-persons! Bet everything you have that some part of men's problems rests solely on the "take it like a man" men.

So we have problems with a goodly percentage of the male population ...

OK, we fix those problems. Big deal. We've fixed bigger problems. All we need to do is role up our sleeves and get to work. Oh yes, we also need to tell the two groups who demand that male problems NOT BE FIXED, to shut up, role up their sleeves and get busy.

4:57 AM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

anonymous 10.36

but since men are told so many times, a lot of them dont dare have the guts to say bullshit. we get pilloried, continually, and when we do stand up, it gets altered and changed to make men look like idiots or rapists or worse. there are a fre like angryharry, and a few others and me in my own small way. we are saying bullshit, but we have a hard uphill struggle.

look at sexual harassment in works, how many cases have you heard where the man wins, not that many but women seem to win the majority even if its small innocuous acts. its getting to be women can do no wrong and men are somehow defective, as they have a y chromosone. takes a lot of work and a beleif of the self to fight all these negative male stereotypes and beliefs that the popular press promote.

5:46 AM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Maybe this is what happens when you motivate boys and men by telling them that they are the cause of the world's problems."

Coffee almost spewed out of my nose in amazement! I laughed out loud.

Helen, why do you keep harping on the downtrodden American male?

Maybe if they were not allowed back into their parent's home they would be more responsible or be able to better explain their lack of motivation. Maybe young men are too pampered. Maybe they don't see any reason to be responsible when they can get away with doing next to nothing.

"women socialize each other, form clubs, etc., and men aren't having that infrastructure."

Coffee spew II !!

Women are finally becoming equal in society and apparently Helen along with some others cannot let it happen. If women are equal then men must now be disadvantaged. Through hundreds of thousands of years women have been lesser people, not allowed to vote, frowned on for being educated, get the vapors in stressful situations. Women are getting strong and fighting for their equal rights, now men are getting the vapors.

Get a life people. Quit making excuses for these men that want to stay at with their parents and advance to the next stage of adulthood. Why do the parents let them back in? They can't stand it if their kid has to live in a dump eating potatoes for a week? Well, heck, living in a dump is a great motivator. I know, been there done that.

7:32 AM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger BobH said...

To anonymous 7:32

Your posting is garbage in so many ways, it's difficult to know where to begin:

1. It's questionable whether women are trying for "equality". I just got (effectively) fired from a company that openly and explicitly discriminates against men, including their male employees. Why? Because most of their consumer customers are women and it's good for business that the company have the reputation for being women and family friendly. Company management apparently believes that discrimination against men is what American women want. My experience is that these managers are correct.

2. Have you been around for hundreds of thousands of years? Do you know anything about anthropology and evolutionary psychology? Women weren't allowed to vote? So what? In most historical cultures, men weren't allowed to vote either. Women were discourage from being educated? Historically, male education hasn't been a really high priority either. Don't confuse economic and social stratificaiton with sexual oppression. They are quite different things. What is really important to anthropologists is the relative levels of participation in "the moral life of the community".

3. The vapors refers to fainting. I don't know of many men who faint in highly stressful situations.

4. Your portrayal of women as noble and altruistic would be a lot more believable without the current laws surrounding paternity fraud and the "Roe v. Wade for men", laws which women's organizations seem quite intent on keeping. Quite simply, you havent't made a case, you have just provided another example of a manipulative and hypocritical bitch. There seem to be an awful lot of you around.

You seem to believe that men should just stoically put up with whatever abuse women see fit to heap on them. Stocism may have benefited men when they gained points for protecting the women-folk from external threats (or as Warren Farrell put it "dying slowly enough that women could escape"), but stocism is completely counterproductive when, as happens all to often, it is women who are the threat.

9:41 AM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Half Sigma said...

More posts of dubious complicated pyschological explanations for a phenomena that's easily explained by rising housing costs relative to young mens' salaries.

I guess no one wants to find a simple and obvious answer when they can use any statistic as an opportunity to write about their pet psychological theories.

No wonder why the new economists are makign all the other "social scientists" irreleavant.

11:56 AM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Half Stigma,

Yeah, whatever.

BobH,

Thanks for your analysis. Sorry about your job. I have worked with other men who have been let go from jobs in female dominated industries--it does happen. It is too bad that so many men are busy playing the tough guy that they do not notice the game has changed.

12:06 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Mercurior,

Bullshit.

1:06 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen,

Perhaps those who do not know the game has changed are not playing your game. There are multiple games in play. One is certainly the victim game, but its not the only game available.

2:07 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger Mercurior said...

anonymous 7.32,

in the UK, all men got the vote only 20 years before women, before then it was the landed gentry, our rich powerful people.

we in this country had more women leaders than most.

if you look, it was the common man who pressured the governments to get the vote for women. so dont say men are selfish.

2:11 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger angryharry said...

Assitant Village Idiot said "I would also hesitate to blame "society" for the actions of young men."

So, if not society, then it must be their genes!

The notion that 'society' does not affect the behaviours of large groups of people is utterly ridiculous.

2:17 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous GM Roper said...

Angry, you are correct, society does indeed have an impact but individuals have choices. In society we hear of mob rule wherein a mob may take actions that no one individual of the mob would think of doing on their own, but there is safety and maybe more importantly anonymity in groups/mobs. Again however it is individuals that make living choices. Maybe it is a matter of finances, divorce and other similar factors. I think that a lot of it is the blame on men for much of the worlds problems. It is also, in part, a tendency of our generation not to have taught our kids responsibility and now that they are in their 20's and 30's they are reaping the whirlwind.

A number of years ago I attended a workshop and the question was asked who amoung us did not believe in abortion because of religious feelings. I answered that I did and, as it were I was the only one that spoke up. A young woman near by said "I hate it when someone with a penis thinks they can tell me what to do with my body." I answered to the effect then that if a woman said the same thing I did, she would be OK with that? She answered with a loud and pointed "No!" So I said, it had nothing to do with being anti-abortion, it had to do with me being a male and that she was a female chauvinist pig. All the men and about 1/3 of the women applauded that comment so the feeling that men are "denigrated" is probably very real.

Don't know if this adds to the discussion, but I think that the problem is multidemensional.

4:01 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

GM,

That had to be a crummy experience but you handled it well.

4:11 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger TestSubjectXP said...

I'm missing something here...

Does somebody want to clarify what exactly is so wrong with living with your parents?

I still do, for the simple reason that it's cheaper than being "Mr. I-Can-Do-It-All-Myself."

I just don't understand what the big crisis is with staying with one's parents in early adulthood, and judging by some of the women I've talked to over the last year or so, women will be picking up the trend very shortly.

Women simply still have more external forces motivating them to buy into the 6_figure_income+big_house+big_car+big_tv=happiness myth.

4:52 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

TestSubjectXP:

Looking at any single example, there might not be anything wrong with living with your parents after school and while you are getting on your financial feet. But the fact that so many are doing it for so long (and that this apparently represents a significant change from the past) makes me wonder why it's happening. That's why some serious research would be helpful.

When my college son is finished with school and (hopefully) graduate school, I would have no problem with him coming home while he gets started in his professional life. Frankly, I probably would like to have him home one last time. But I don't expect this to happen for at least three reasons. First, if he gets married, he needs to provide for himself and his wife. That's the way marriage works in our family. Don't do it until you can provide for yourself. If they need some help along the way, I'm here but generally getting married means you are able to take care of yourself. I don't really expect him to delay marriage until he is 26-28, but I did so it's possible he will, too.

Second, I expect he will pick a good major and graduate school program so that he will be able to provide for himself after he graduates and won't need to come home.

And third, historically most young people between the ages of 24-34 had to or wanted to strike out on their own. The fact that so many don't want to or can't is troublesome. In my view, it represents a change in the mindset of today's young people that life isn't full of opportunity, it's full of danger that is best faced from the safety of the family nest. I think it is this last factor that is the reason so many of the commenters want young men to toughen up. To a certain extent, I join them in that feeling but I don't want to go there until I know why this is happening to our young men.

6:41 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger David said...

I don't think one should assume that for a young man to live with his parents is automatically a sign of wimpiness and lack of ambition. In many cases, it's strictly a financial decision.

Most likely, this has some connection with the huge student loans that many recent graduates have outstanding as a result of the rapaciousness of American universities.

7:15 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Brian said...

It's really simple.

Marriage is what drove young men from their parent's houses.

Marriage is now optional. Single men are no longer shunned as "irresponsible" or "immature" in political and professional situations. Women no longer have a social or financial need for marriage. And it's easier to be self-sufficient. One person can now keep house, cook, and basically do everything that once requried two people.

So given that the one major social factor that pushed men out into the world is pretty much gone, is it any surprise they aren't leaving? Once their parents wise up (remember, in their generation you didn't leave home until you got married) to the new facts of life, these guys will be out on their own. And to the surprise of too many, they will be fine.

7:21 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger angryharry said...

Here are just A FEW main reasons why men might chose to remain at home [i]as a result of the influences of feminism and political correcntess[/i].

1. House prices - the number of single people living alone as soared recently creating huge extra demands for property. This has arisen at least partly because intimate relationships are now fraught with dangers as a result of the enormous 'abuse industry' at work.

2. Excessive Immigration - more living space required, as per above.

3. The unnacceptable legal, emotional and financial risks involved in marriage.

4. Discrimination in employment.

5. High taxes.

6. Depression, alienation - which also lead to drug abuse etc

7. Poorer education; poorer job prospects.

8. Diminution of their potential roles and status as 'fathers'.

9. Lack of good role models.

And there are probably many other highly significant factors that are the result of [i] the influences of feminism and political correcntess[/i]

7:34 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

testsubject,

There is nothing wrong with a young man out of school living with his parents. But I wonder how much ambition, drive, motivation, and confidence such men have.

I'd also have to question if I would want to depend on them in a crisis. As an employer I'd ask what they had accomplished, and I'd qustion their initiative and ability to act independently.

If I were faced with two relatively equal applicants, and one was on his own, and the other was living with his parents, I doubt I would take the guy living with his parents. Why take a chance?

So, there is nothing wrong with living with parents, but there is nothing particularly right about it.

Auntie Mame said, "Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" I don't think the guy living with his parents has even taken a place in the buffet line.

7:35 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

brian,

What generation didn't leave home until they were married? The typical parent of a 24-year-old is between 46 and 56. I guarantee the norm for that group was not living with their parents until marriage.

The grandparents of the 24-year-old may have, but not the parents.

7:39 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

TestSubjetcxp,

I wonder why any healthy young man would let somebody else support him when he could do it himself.

9:05 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

halfsigma,

Housing costs make guys live with Mommy and Daddy? And studio apartment costs? And sharing the rent with three other guys? And renting in the Bronx rather than Manhattan? But then, who would tuck them in at night?

9:48 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger TestSubjectXP said...

I wonder why any healthy young man would let somebody else support him when he could do it himself.

*blinks*

For the same reason healthy young women planned their lives around being dependent on a husband not too long ago, I suppose. That reason being: Sometimes it's advantageous to count on others.

And as far as not counting on a person living at home in a crisis, that's a down right massive leap in logic. I'd question whether I could trust an employer that could make such an uninformed judgement call.

Not hiring someone because they live with their parents would be discrimination (thank God). That's f**king ridiculous.

There's a huge difference between not living on your own and not being capable of living on your own. I'm sorry to see so many can't make the distinction between the two.

11:39 PM, April 01, 2006  
Blogger TestSubjectXP said...

I guess there would be a major problem if there are honestly employers out there asinine enough to be reluctant to hire someone living with their parents. How are these guys supposed to be financially stable enough to move out if discrimination prevents them from getting a decent job while still at home?

What is this culture's obsession with hyper-independence? Look at other cultures where many generations live under one roof.

Bah, I could go on all night.

11:52 PM, April 01, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This has been caused purely and simply by males being emasculated by women (not all women may I say) but by most.

Mothers do not do their sons any favours by not ensuring that they can cook, do the washing, cleaning and even sew a button on. Mothers won't always be around.

Women and in particular single mothers with numerous offspring of various males are the leeches of society and this has come about because of all the benefits they get, both when not working and when working. its a Win - Win situation for them.

They can stay in a job forever unlike any males, because they are now entitled to 12 months paid maternity leave leaving an employer with the problem of paying them and also a replacement for 12 months whilst they have more and more children.

This can only backlash eventually as the smaller businesses and company's won't be able to afford to do it. I can only see that by employing males or women of past childbearing age will be considered.

What is the difference between a single unmarried mother and a widowed mother. A great deal, the widowed mother is not classed as a single mother and cannot get the benefits and payouts the others do.

Women in the 1960s decided they wanted equality. but they didn't mean that, they meant they wanted to be better than the males and set out on this emasculation that we see today. Young men with nowhere to go as they are deprived of the jobs, they are therefore unable to buy property for themselves or even go to University now.

This has been a terrible result to what had been started off as wanting equal pay for equal work, but that could never have been because mothers in the workplace, have extra time off for children when they are sick, extra time off for school holiday, extra time off for school functions and the rest of the staff are left to do their work for them (at no extra pay either).

6:05 AM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that they reach an age where many of their friends are already married, and they aren't comfortable with sharing an apartment with a stranger.

I know that my brother has many roommate nightmare stories. Most of his friends were married, and he couldn't afford a decent place to live on his income alone. (Indeed, few married couples can live on one income in this day and time.) He moved back home for a few years to finish his degree.

I also know a number of single adult men who are living in their parents house to care for them, or help a widowed or divorced mom make ends meet and provide security. The ones I know really would rather be having more of a "life" yet feel a sense of responsibility for their parents.

Then there are probably some that really can't see a good reason to live in an efficiency apartment with milk crate furniture and a boom box when there's cable t.v., broadband, etc. at home. This sounds a lot like the apartment my husband and I had when we first married, and our memories of it are fun. But back then, you couldn't get sex and live at home. Or at least, not comfortably once bucket seats and smaller cars became the norm.

11:14 AM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Testsubject,

1. I wonder why a healthy young man would use women as his standard.

2. Hiring anyone is a crapshoot. There is no objective standard that will ensure an applicant will be a productive employee and asset to the firm. So, it all comes down to probabilities. Someone who lives on his own has shown initiative and responsibility. That increases the probability they will be a good employee.

3. Of course shunning an applicant who lives with his parents is discrimination. So what?

4. I agree some are not capable of living on their own. But that doesn't include healthy young men. Healthy young men who think they are incapable of living on their own are probably incapable of manty other things.

2:50 PM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Testsubject,

We can look at other cultures where healthy young men live under one roof with many other family members. That roof is usually over one room, too.

2:52 PM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Half Sigma said...

"And third, historically most young people between the ages of 24-34 had to or wanted to strike out on their own. The fact that so many don't want to or can't is troublesome."

Historically, extended families were the norm. Only when we became rich enough did a new norm develop. This is not the case in other countries. I remember talking to a guy who moved here from India, and he couldn't understand why his Americanized children insisted on wasting their entire income living away from home.

Anyway, it's becoming less affordable for young people to live away from home. And that's troublesome, but has nothing to do with pyschological stuff, zoning laws have made housing too expensive, and competition from overseas labor and immigrant labor has reduced young people's salaries.

5:29 PM, April 02, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Half-sigma,

Dr. Leonard Sax who does research in the area of men and boys found that the phenomenon of living at home for boys and men cuts across cultures and socio-economic lines. He states:

"What's really striking to me, as a practicing family physician, is that I do NOT see any clear correlation between parental demographics and the likelihood of the son 'failing to launch.' I've seen this phenomenon with affluent families and poor families, with White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic families, with families living in a mansion in Potomac and families living in a shack in Ijamsville. I've seen it with older parents and with younger parents. No group is exempt."

So I am not convinced that it is just economics that plays a part.

6:08 PM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

halfsigma,

If a guy can't afford housing in a particular area, he can move to another. I suspect the whingers think they should have the same standard of housing they enjoy at their parents' places. It's not that they can't afford things, it's that they have standards they can't afford.

For the guy who is convinced he can't make it outside of the nest, there's always the US military. They give very generous signing bonuses, train people in usable skills, and provide enough college money to go from freshman through grad school.

Anyone familiar with a veteran who is living in his parents nest? I wonder what percentage of vets live in the nest as compared to the percentage of the general population?

A twenty year old Marine Corps vet with a high school diploma can easily make it on his own. How come the 23 year old college grad can't?

7:48 PM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Half Sigma said...

"A twenty year old Marine Corps vet with a high school diploma can easily make it on his own. How come the 23 year old college grad can't?"

Because the Marine Corps vet doesn't have to repay student loans!

College really isn't such a good deal these days. At best, it allows you to get into a field where you can get some experience so you can get a decent paying job down the road. Starting salaries for most college graduates doesn't pay the rent after making the student loan payments.

Helen: "I've seen this phenomenon with affluent families and poor families, with White, Black, Asian, and Hispanic families, with families living in a mansion in Potomac and families living in a shack in Ijamsville."

Young people of all demographics face the same low starting salries and high housing costs, so what's surprising?

Some young people with rich parents receive PARENTAL SUPPORT to pay for their apartments away from home, but that's not true independence, is it?

I would say that the MAJORITY of young people living in Manhattan have their parents pay some or all of their rent.

Now I didn't want to bring this up before, but I have a theory that young women are more likely to receive money from their parents to live away from home than men, but this is an unproven theory and maybe I'm wrong.

9:12 PM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

halfsigma,

Apparently the kid who went into the Marine Corps out of high school is smarter then the one who borrowed to go to college. The college guy living in the nest can't make it. The Marine who stood up like a man has all the money he needs for college, can live on his own, and has the confidence to take on the world.

Any healthy single guy can live on his own and pay the student loans. Many do it. And they leave the weenies behind to comfort each other.

10:21 PM, April 02, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Halfsigma wrote,

"Some young people with rich parents receive PARENTAL SUPPORT to pay for their apartments away from home, but that's not true independence, is it?"

No. It's a weenie.

10:23 PM, April 02, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Some young people with rich parents receive PARENTAL SUPPORT to pay for their apartments away from home, but that's not true independence, is it?"

Excellent point. I have two nephews, brothers, who fit this description. They don't live togeterh either but in cities 100 miles apart. They both work but initially appear to be under acheivers in the adult world. Maybe as they get older they'll get more ambitious. Both are college educated and quite intelligent. Their father seems to like this situation as it gives him a certain amount of control over his sons' lives.

7:43 AM, April 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'd like to see a blue state-red state breakdown of this phenomena, for two reasons:

1) Housing tends to be much more expensive in the blue states.

2) Marriage tends to be much more emphasized in the red states.

I would venture that the percentages of men living at home a long time are higher in the NE and West Coast than in the heartland, for the above reasons.

10:41 AM, April 03, 2006  
Blogger Abaddon_fff said...

All demographics have this "problem" if indeed that is what it is. Its just the reasones for it that are different, in poorer families its because housing costs too much or the lack of an education in our great public school system. In the past living with your family wasn't considered wrong, as there were a variety of reasons for it. Why do you think that nursing homes are a booming industry? Because in the past at least one of the children stayed home to take care of the elderly parents. Now its more like throw your parents out of their own house when they get older and stick them in an institution. In the past when times got tough (as they are getting now) families banded together for the betterment of all. I think you will see more and more of this if we keep going the way we are going. Much of it has to do with the breakdown of the family unit and the social ills thereof. Its basic math is all. With more people looking for living quarters, the more its going to cost to find a place to live. While many women are "entitled" to get govt. subsidized housing if they have children, there is no help for men in a similar position. Ever wonder why 80% of homeless people are men? Lack of housing and lack of help are two out of several variables in this equasion. To all the people who suggested that these young men move to where housing is affordable, I ask, HAVE YOU EVER LIVED THERE? Jesus its safer to live with your mom or dad, try living in the slums, or the ghetto before you start talking about it. High crime rates, drug abuse, ect ect. I think that most you men just say "screw that" and go back.

1:42 PM, April 03, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Abaddon,

I have lived in dumps in crappy neighborhoods. Big deal. I grew up in one. So what? The situation men face has nothing to do with my history.

I still say a guy can find an affordable place. A weenie will find all kinds of excuses to stay in the nest. A man will take care of himself.

3:04 PM, April 03, 2006  
Blogger quadrupole said...

Half Sigma,

Starting salaries aren't that low, except in fields like english, sociology, etc where such low salaries are a well understood phenomina. Walk out of college with a degree in something marketable and you will have no issue making rent plus student loans. This is particularly true if you got your education at a state school, instead of some small liberal arts college (which typically provide a lower quality of education in mathematics, the sciences, and engineering than are available at state schools).

7:14 PM, April 03, 2006  
Anonymous ErikZ said...

Walk out of college with a degree in something marketable and you will have no issue making rent plus student loans.

Really? Cause I walked out with a 4 year degree in CIS (computers) and have been basically unemployable. I'm lucky that I didn't have any student loans. I was very close to living on the streets. Oh wait, I should have parsed your statement better. What you said was "Walk out of college with employable skills, and someone will employee you!". Well no kidding. Did you know sales was merely selling something to someone who wanted to buy it? It's so easy!

To everyone who thinks this is a bad thing, please try to be more specific. So far there's just a "Ugh, how unmanly" gut response.

Quit making excuses for these men that want to stay at with their parents and advance to the next stage of adulthood.

Fine. More men are staying home longer because they want to. So butt out.

Second, I expect he will pick a good major and graduate school program so that he will be able to provide for himself after he graduates and won't need to come home.

What makes you think he'll be able to get a good job with that graduate degree? Boy, I hope you're not setting his expectations too high.

Because the Marine Corps vet doesn't have to repay student loans!

Oh, it gets better. What Mr Super Marine man didn't tell you was that he gets a retirement check from the Marines. Enough to pay for living in his own place. Completely different than having your parents pay for your apartment.

8:28 PM, April 04, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Erikz,

1. Is there no company in the US that will hire you?

2. Marines who serve 20 years or more get a retirement check. Those who do not reenlist serve 2, 3, or 4 years. They get no retirement check. But they do get money under the Montgomery GI bill.

10:31 PM, April 04, 2006  
Anonymous beenaround said...

Erikz said:


Really? Cause I walked out with a 4 year degree in CIS (computers) and have been basically unemployable.


Hmmm, that's funny, 'cause I walked out of college (University, actually) with a 4-year CS degree, and I have never been un-employed. Indeed, when I looked into changing jobs just a few weeks ago, there several hightech startups wanting to talk to me.

I have not lived at home since I moved out to go to college, and I have looked after myself since then, as well as looking after two kids (with a wife, who worked).

However, I have to agree with the perceptive comments of the person who suggested that parents are creating lazy, entitlement expecting males. My mother died when I was ten after years of abuse from my step-father, who then transferred his abuse to my brother and I.

I guess we decided that since no one else was going to look after us, we better do it ourselves. The funny thing is, after all the love and mollycoddling my eldest daughter got, she has become very independent since moving to college. Perhaps it is in the genes after all.

12:12 PM, April 07, 2006  
Blogger zed said...

And maybe it is what happens when you create weenies by telling them they are poor little victims in an unfair society.

Ah yes, let's continue the personal attacks against males to drive them even further away from caring in the least what women or this culture want from them or think of them.

1:17 PM, April 23, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When they shut the lid on the coffins, I wonder where they will live and who will pay the bills...Parents should take child rearing lessons from the birds...push them out of the nest and watch them fly...if they don't then mother nature will even things up...

5:53 PM, April 23, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Maybe it's because, no thanks to reverse discrimination...oops, affirmative action...it's just about impossible for a male to get entry-level employment in the jobs that pay a living wage.

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