Thursday, January 19, 2006

Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say

Who says men don't share their feelings? 125 comments and growing in the post about men and marriage. I must admit that reading these comments has made me wince--with pain and sadness for some of the writers--as well as with anger that so many of our laws have unfairly turned against men in order to give women the upper hand in the domestic arena. I can understand why some men stay away from marriage and relationships in general.

Many men in the thread seemed to be wondering where women get this sense of entitlement--that men are supposed to support them, please them, listen to everything they have to say and respond with no judgement at all. I can only fathom that it comes from being told that girls are precious and boys are scum. "Men are pigs" is so common that no one bats an eye anymore--even men throw out this phrase as it is branded into their psyche from a young age. The other day I was at a restaurant and the waitress was pregnant. I told her congrats and asked if she knew the sex of her child. "Thank God it's a girl", she quipped, "we don't need to bring any more boys into the world." Uhh...we don't? Why not? Apparently, the prejudice against boys starts in the womb. And the sad thing is, we are all going along with it--even the men.

So what do we do to change the negative attitudes (and hopefully, the unfair laws against men in marriage etc.)? We change our own attitudes and behavior when interacting with each other. Men don't have to go overboard but being strong and silent has never held more negative consequences for men. Speak up in relationships with women and tell them a little about how you feel. If a woman calls a man a jerk, speak up and say this is unfair and belittling--do not agree for goodness sakes! That will only reinforce stereotypes. Do not go along with everything a woman says in order to get sex--unless you just want sex and nothing else. Call her on her bad attitude and tell her to cut it out--it shows little respect for her fellow human beings.

And sometimes women can be so intent on bashing men that they stop listening. Warren Farrell has a book entitled, Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say: Destroying Myths, Creating Love, that describes some of the problems with male bashing and man hating. Changing this begins not only with men but with women--we need to chastise the female chauvinistic behavior of other women--not reinforce it by yelling, "You go, girl!" Women who yell "all men are pigs" and see women as saints are nothing but trouble. And other women and men who go along with this attitude are contributing to the problem. It is no longer funny and cute that women feel this way--it is destructive and adding to problems between the sexes in the courts and in relationships. Women should realize that men have feelings also, they are not automatons who march to their every whim and desire. Women who need that much admiration and support need a therapist, not a partner.

Anyone out there have other ideas to reduce the negative attitudes about males so prevalent in our society?

67 Comments:

Blogger Dave said...

"Anyone out there have other ideas to reduce the negative attitudes about males so prevalent in our society?"

I have to admit I don't really know what you're talking about.

I understand your comments about feminists' "I am woman, hear me roar" schtick.

Maybe I'm just very lucky and have not encountered these negative attitudes you seem to see everywhere, or otherwise blissfully ignorant.

9:38 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger jau said...

Keep in mind that we were literally our father's and then our husband's property - truly, property -until 1977. That's very recently when you think about it. You can be pretty young and still be experiencing independence and empowerment as a new thing. I am optimistic that this will all work out once a couple of generations are accustomed to real equality.

9:38 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

Thanks Dr. Helen. You are quite right about many men talking trash about men. It is bad when women do it, in some ways it is worse men men spout misandry. At any rate, we have a bad system and one that is getting worse as --at the same time-- it is getting better.

aup: The last law claiming women as property was struck down in the mid 1700's if I correctly remember my history. Blackwell, eh?

9:46 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger DRJ said...

I don't have a suggestion to reduce negative attitudes about men, but I would like to see schools and families accept boys' competitive nature. Let boys play games and contests where someone wins. They enjoy competition and it is a good source of self-esteem in boys and young men.

aup - Apparently you agree with the Supreme Court that it will take another 25 years before blacks (and women) are fully integrated into society and treated fairly. Here's a thought: It won't be real equality until EVERYONE (including men) are treated the same.

9:55 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger BobH said...

I think that Christina Hoff Sommers ("Who Stole Feminism", "The War Against Boys"), Cathy Young ("Ceasefire") and Daphne Patai ("Heterophobia") all suggested disbanding Womens Studies departments.

10:29 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger XWL said...

"Anyone out there have other ideas to reduce the negative attitudes about males so prevalent in our society?"

Take The View off the air?

(couldn't help myself, but shows like that, and the endless loop of dumb guy/smart woman commercials are a big part of the perception problem men deal with (and also a big reason why young men no longer seek TV (outside of sports) for their entertainment needs)

10:36 AM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I think that in academia there is a deep dislike of masculine traits and behaviours like competition and agression. Unfortunately, these people are the ones who train our teachers. I honestly think that boys are looked down on in elementary, middle and high school. How else can you explain the disappearance of boys from college campuses? And try to find a contemporary book for boys with a boy who shows heroic behaviour. It's very hard. No wonder that Harry Potter is so popular. He's a boy who is a hero, not someone who stands on the sideline and says "you go, girl"

10:39 AM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Jenny said...

jw and Dr. Helen, I think you're right about men perpetuating misandry among themselves. It's rather sad to think that men actually believe the crap some women spout.

I guess the only way to really get out of this is to teach kids-- teach both boys and girls that the sexes really are equal. Not "should be made" equal or "should be treated" equally, but that neither sex is better than the other. Teach boys that they have right to stand up for themselves, and teach girls that feminist rhetoric doesn't absolve them of their bad behavior.

One of the best articles on the Internet I found for raising boys came from Pagan Parenting, called "Plastic Swords and Pentacles". It's a long read, and some drier, more skeptical types may roll their eyes at the more New Agey passages, but the the sections on "The Example of Heroes" and "The Science of Etiquette" are particularly valuble. (Disclaimer: Yes, I'm a NeoPagan. No, not all NeoPagans are like Starhawk. Yes, I will answer questions about my faith if you email me offsite.)

In closing, I'll repeat what I said in response to Dr. Helen's last post: Men and boys deserve better from women and girls. They have the right to demand that.

(Oh, and set Maureen Dowd's whiny book on fire.)

10:40 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Callmeteem said...

None of the women in my life including my wife and friends have that attitude. But is that attitude out there? Absolutely. I sometimes wonder if giving active little boys ritalin isn't about punishing them for being boys.
There is much awareness of breast cancer (which is good, breast cancer should be researched and beaten) but by contrast when was the last time anybody held a marathon for victims of prostate cancer?
How is that to be remedied?
Beats me. But perhaps people who are aware of this can refuse to participate in belittling men for being nother other than a man.

10:47 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Chris said...

(By the way, that link to Warren Farrell's book is dud. You can use http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1585420611/ instead.)

10:53 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Chis,

I just checked and the link is fine-- must be an amazon problem but thanks for adding another.

10:56 AM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

I think we must allow that many men bring it upon themselves. Let's not go too far over the other edge here. I hear men complaining at work about their ex-'s, and what a raw deal they've gotten, and often conclude there is a lack of responibility and adulthood on their part.

This is an issue where it is easy to cherry-pick one's quotes either way to make the other gender look bad. As I have to estimate truth-telling as part of my job, I tend to disbelieve everyone. To all the angry comments by men in the earlier post, there is a woman with another side to that story. And by the way, I don't believe her either.

That said, I think there is more guilty-until-proven-innocent from some on the female side, but I don't find it to be anything like a majority.

12:32 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I'm with the asst. villiage idiot. One of the things that disturbed me in the previous thread was the massive stereotyping of women and their responses to relationships. If it's bad to perpetuate the stereotype that all men are scum, then why is it acceptable to class all women as insecure, accusatory, and vindictive in relationships?

I also think people aren't taking history into account. It just hasn't been that long since women were the ones shown on TV as dimwitted, and women were told that their inherent nature precluded certain activities, careers, etc. Yes, the pendulum has swung too far the other way, but that's a pretty common reaction and it looks to me like the correction has already begun.

12:53 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Roger said...

Unlike a man woman thing i think it is more of a generational issue. I read these comments about women, I think of my wife and they seem so alian to me she is and never has been like that. I could never picture here ever saying anything close to that.

20 and 30 something people, both men and woman are different than the 40 and 50 somethings. I don't know why there was a change but there was.

2:34 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Auld Pharte said...

An interesting assortment of views so far -

Denial: What negative attitudes about men?

Excuse: It's just liberated women having the good time they deserve!

Myopia: Huh? I don't see it in my relationship.

Conflicted: It's bad, but it's good.

Brainwashed: It's men's fault if women hate them. (the male feminist)

Wishful thinkers: Well, maybe, but it will get better. You'll see.

Rationalizers: Men deserve it because women were unfairly treated. So there.

Ya gotta love it.

3:20 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I don't have any answers, just some observations. After my first wife died, I joined a church support group of mostly divorced people. Also mostly women. The anger and men bashing got pretty heavy sometimes. "It was all his fault" "I never want to have anything to do with men again" And so on. But after a couple of years, the tone changed. More "Where do you go to meet men" and less "Men are scum!" I remember one lady that I was kind of sweet on. One day in the group, she turned to another woman and said "If they can put a man on the moon, why can't they put them all there!" That was a complete turn off for me. She probably never knew why I began to ignore her. Eventually the group disbanded and I met and married a wonderful woman that amost never men bashes.

3:46 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous dustpuppy said...

Anyone out there have other ideas to reduce the negative attitudes about males so prevalent in our society?

Best one I've seen is here.

We men really are very simple creatures; we don't need much analysis to figure us out -- and applying feminist-style "analysis" to us will yield gibberish, much like attempting to decrypt a message which was already sent in plain text.

Apparently I was incredibly lucky in the sort of woman I bumped into in college; 25 wedding anniversaries later, I'm as head-over-heels in love with her as the day her smile first reduced me to a puddle of helpless goo. She puts up with my foibles, and I put up with hers -- and neither spends much time worrying about the foibles of the other. We've spent the better part of 30 years building each other up, not tearing each other down.

It probably helps that she attended an engineering school; she spent four years studying real science, rather than the kind practiced in "womyn's studies" faculties.

3:47 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous John Ahrens said...

I remember a nursery rhyme from the 50's and 60's (it's much older, but that's my memory) that went:

What are little girls made of?
Sugar and spice and everything nice. That's what little girls are made of.

What are little boys made of?
Snakes and snails and puppy-dog tails. That's what little boys are made of.

As a boy, I never thought it was fair. Girls were good, boys were bad.

4:07 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Tucsonan said...

Dustpuppy -
Congratulations! I can't think your marriage is uncommon - you could have been describing mine. We're best friends and partners. My wife is also an engineer. Maybe that's the answer.

John Ahrens -
What's so bad about snakes, snails and puppy dog tails? I've always thought that rhyme was more insulting to girls than to boys.

4:47 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Timothy said...

Speaking of negative attitudes about men, there's this.

4:49 PM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Timothy,

I have seen this gadget before--I would be humiliated to have it in my kitchen. I agree with the 2nd reviewer that they would never put the same thing in female form. I guess people think that it is funny if a man gets stabbed. Too bad so many people think there is no negativity towards men in our country.

4:57 PM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger FamousLurker said...

"Men don't have to go overboard but being strong and silent has never held more negative consequences for men."

You are asking men to be more like women to defend themselves as men! We men are what we are.

We can't be expected to stop being men and start complaining to the women in our lives about how unfair things are. Sorry. That's just not... er, manly. A mature man will not whine about this to women. It just will not happen. No matter how much you want it too.

5:24 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Timothy said...

It's true they'd never sell a female one. I bet they'd never sell one shaped like a dog or other cute fuzzy. PETA would pitch a fit, can't have a rover-shaped knife holder...but a daddy-shaped knife-holder is A-okay!

5:26 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Teresa said...

Email seems to be a huge distributor of these nasty thoughts and it's so insidious that few people think twice about it. I can usually tell when someone's marriage is in bad shape by the number of humorous "men are bad" emails I get from them. Mostly those now creep me out and unless they're very clever, I don't find them funny.

5:30 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Mary in LA said...

aup said...
"Keep in mind that we were literally our father's and then our husband's property - truly, property -until 1977."

Umm, I wasn't really a cognizant human being in 1977 -- what happened in that year to change the status quo? Thanks, and sorry if this is a dumb question.

Great blog, Dr. H!

5:34 PM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger Assistant Village Idiot said...

I'm dying to hear how aup justifies this one. Next she'll be spouting the urban legend about the "rule of thumb."

Or the one about Super Bowl Sunday violence...

9:11 PM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I like the old adage that two wrongs don't make a right. Auld pharte hits on this (Men deserve it).

The funny thing is is that relatively few women alive today have suffered greatly from "sexism." I look at my three sisters ages 58 to 41 (I think). The oldest is an attorney and high ranking official in state government, number 2 is co-owner of a software company, and the youngest a college professor.

Sure they've had their moments when someone made a sexist comment or act but we all put up with some crap for being tall or short or having a funny name or crooked teeth or whatever.

I really don't know where to go with this except that's it's not really that hard to treat each other decently but it sure seems to be for some people.

10:32 PM, January 19, 2006  
Anonymous Teri said...

I don't have any grand sweeping societal solutions, but I have some personal suggestions that can help chip away at it:

1) Note the advertisers that use the dumb-man technique and refuse to use those products. Dumb-man or dumb-woman ads are an insult to everyone's intelligence.

2) Defend your man when friends or acquaintances get into the man-bashing. Personalize it. Don't let them get away with blanket condemnations of men, tell them that your husband/son/brother/etc. is wonderful and you find their comments hurtful.

3)If someone sends you man-bashing humor, send it back. Say "please don't send this type of thing to me any more, I find it hurtful and offensive."

4) Praise your boys for being boys. Delight in their boy-ness. Appreciate your mate's simple and direct man-ness.

I guess in essence, it will take some guts to counteract the attempted sissyfication of society and denigration of our men.

11:02 PM, January 19, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

I see Harry Crouch PhD (angryharry) typed out this statement "If your wife cuts off your penis the whole world will laugh." A bit over the top maybe, but not all that much. The three countries of North America get one to three dozen of these cases every year. They are laughed at, openly too. Not by everybody ... yet most people do laugh. Therein lies the essential difference between males and females in today's society. Aggravated sexual assault of a male is funny: Serious domestic violence against a male is funny.

We will not make a step into a better society for anyone without being willing to deal with this difference.

Four years ago Nathanson & Young produced the first book in their trilogy on Misandry. "Spreading misandry" was well received by many people and almost universally shot down by people in the press: Their second book comes out in March; the situation will be much the same. While Nathanson & Young were on Carol & Paul Mott's show on CFRB (Canada's largest radio station) callers kept calling in saying variations of "Misandry is impossible. All men are pigs." Many callers handled the situation and its ideas quite straight up: Yet so many were opposed to the very concept of sexism against males. Therein, once again we see the difference between the sexes.

I find myself with a problem. I stand opposed to contempt for anyone. Yet, outside of the internet, standing against contempt for males is extremely hard. It takes more than courage to stop a woman from spouting out her hatred for men. Anything contrary I or any other man says will result in more contempt or a verbal fight in which I will lose: Anytime and anywhere such a fight happens, the male is at fault in the eyes of almost every adult. A great many men have had their careers ruined by simply objecting to hate. I do not have to worry about a job, I am disabled. I do have to worry about how people see me: I advocate for the disabled and against child abuse as well. Mispeaking in the slightest way could easily ruin my credibility. This is why I am so strong in saying that women must take a stand against misandry.

In the other thread some men said things about women which should not have been said. Sexism of either form does not help the situation. That said, misandry is far more common than misaogyny and is also openly promoted by those in power. The two forms of sexism have different roots and are treated by the adults in society as very different things.

Do some men do nasty things to women? Of course. Do some women do nasty things to men? Of course. The only difference is how society, the press and the law treat the nastiness. The men are punished, the women are praised, ignored or --on rare occaision-- punished. The difference is stark.

4:44 AM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous Jephnol said...

Dr. Helen,
The "new sexism" theme has got me wound up pretty tight. It's 5:40 AM by my clock, and I'm just getting to bed because I've been up half the night reading and writing about this subject.

Timothy,
Good find on the "butcher" block link. I actually tried writing to the company, but every attempt was expletive laden.

Anonymous 10:39 AM,
I was surfing this whole idea tonight, and I kept running up against academics who argued for the feminization of our society. I'm thinking you're pretty right on in your assessment, at least as far as the few academics I've read tonight are concerned--they don't seem to value male traits.

Aup,
I can't say I know of any woman who was property in '77--at least not anymore than the males I knew. I can't argue the history, but I'd love for you to cite some sources for a wild assertion like that...

As far as waiting a few generations for things to settle down--yeah, right!

AVI,
Yeah, a lot of men bring it on themselves when they get in trouble in a relationship. But brother, whacko is a two-way street. Of course there are bad men, but the misconception is that all men are bad, which hurts a lot of really good guys, and absolves a lot of really bad women.

Jephnol

6:20 AM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger Gibbie the labrat said...

Maybe it's because there is a strong feminism movement in liberal circles, but no maleism movement (that wouldn't fly). Maybe it's gotten to be that white males are primary enemy #1 from every other group because they have better jobs (etc) than everyone else. It's probably true; in academia, most science professors/researchers are white males. But nowadays we are getting a ton of Indian/Chinese people in (seems the gender disparegy is less evident in these races). Anyway I think time will heal alot.

10:48 AM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

gibbie: People fighting for equality in the areas where men are on the low side of the equation do exist: It'called masculanism and is quite a common viewpoint.

The men's movements (always plural) are growing quite well. Mind you, the peopel who hate men are growing more strident. This results in society getting both worse and better at one and the same time.

12:07 PM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

dadvocate said:

"Sure they've had their moments when someone made a sexist comment or act but we all put up with some crap for being tall or short or having a funny name or crooked teeth or whatever."

Why is it so easy to dismiss this but not the men's jokes?


auld pharte:

Is it not possible the myopia is on your part? Many of the men in the previous post seemed to blame their divorces entirely on the capriciousness of their wives. Very rarely does the blame for a divorce lie with one or even primarily one person.

jw said:

"In the other thread some men said things about women which should not have been said. Sexism of either form does not help the situation."

Thank you for this admission.

Everyone:

Could anyone please cite me to some of these "unfair laws" that Helen and others have referenced? Not anecdotal decisions by judges in cases that can't be proven (unless you have a cite for that) but "unfair laws".

12:55 PM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Anonymous 12:55:

I generally do not appreciate trolls coming on here to "pretend" that they have never heard of the unfair laws against men. I realize that this is just a trolling tactic but just in case you are genuine --which again, I doubt--start with the VAWA:

VAWA infuses big money into a vast network of female-specific government programs that amount to a feminist bureaucracy. It includes 260 women's commissions, 560 women's-studies programs and more than 1,000 domestic-violence and rape-crisis shelters. In Washington it includes a rabbit warren of agencies -- most of them run by women, all of them for women and nearly all of them taxpayer funded.

http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=5001631788

1:45 PM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger dadvocate said...

Anon 12:55 - I've been made fun of for being tall and skinny, crooked teeth and having a funny name. It's pretty easy to see the immaturity, etc. of such insults. But supposedly legitimate but false and unfair criticism of men (or women or a particular race, etc.) along with a biased legal, social service system, as pointed out by DrHelen above as a group is quite harmful to individuals and society.

Example of sexist comment my sister received: she was looking at a car to buy. Having found one she liked the salesman told her to talk it over with her husband. Being an attorney with an income of her own, although married, my sister found this insulting. She went back the dealership on the salesman's day off. bought the car from a different salesperson and told the sales manager to make sure the first salesperson did not get any of the commission. Was the first salesperson sexist? Maybe, maybe not. He may simply have thought buying a car would be a mutual decision between her and her husband who didn't happen to be present at the time.

One of my other sister's thinks it's sexist to sit down on the couch while she's still standing in the kitchen. It does sound like I write off some sexism, which I don't, my point is that my sisters have been quite successful in their careers that to claim that sexism has significantly hurt their careers or any other significant aspects of their lives would difficult to prove. Considering the increasing numbers of women in and graduating from college compared to the decling numbers for men, sexism against women, while it still exists to various degrees, causing the harm that radical feminism is. I believe we can work together if we stop the "us" against "them" stuff. But radical feminists continue to demand special considerations, etc. to the detriment of the rest of society.

2:11 PM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous docdave said...

Helen, obviously the more nefarious areas of feminism are trying to destroy the traditional family and/or reduce men to a inferior subclass. Both men and women can defeat them if in their relationship and bonding they adhere to the ancient bibical scripture advice in Paul - Ephesians 5:33 a husband 'must love his wife as he loves himself; and let every wife respect her husband'. Love and respect - such a simple formula and seemingly so difficult. To that I will add that I believe that true love is without reservation and exception. In other words, this being sensitive to ones feelings is all smoke and mirrors. If you can't accept your intended as is, look elsewhere for your true love.

2:45 PM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous Jephnol said...

Dr. Helen,

Blogging will be a part of the solution, because it's has such potential to bring a message to small pockets in communities across the nation.

It would be helpful if individual bloggers who hear the plea for mutual respect and understanding would decry the new sexism, and stand up to be heard on this issue on their own blogs and in their own voices. That's particularly important, as so many bloggers get such little traffic, and it’s only going to work one reader at a time.

I wrote an entry on my site—that’s my first small contribution. Who’s next?

Thanks for all of your work, Dr. Helen.

Jephnol

3:08 PM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Helen:

Once again I see the word troll being tossed about here. It's my understanding that a troll is someone who starts arguments for the pure pleasure of arguments and is generally malicious and rude.

I hardly see that my last post or any of my posts have been so, or at least have not been any more rude than that of posters who happen to agree with you.

As for VAWA, I'll give that one to you (although linking to an obviously slanted article about VAWA from a conservative magazine seems to prove bias on your part). I have actually read a good portion of the Act and it's certainly an example of pork--and pork that at least appeases feminists whether it actually assists women or not.

It's only one example and I would ask for further proof, but nevermind. Just nevermind.

I could agree with some of what you say, Helen, but you should also know that a great deal of what you say is rude and hurtful as well. Reasoned discussion I thought was a good thing. Fun, informative, and able to bring about change.

But it seems that all you want here is for posters to agree with you completely. A big lovefest of people all saying the same thing. "Here Here!"

Perhaps I should just be glad that you allow posting. I know Glenn doesn't and, though I wish he did, I know he would be overwhelmed. So, I'll just go elsewhere.

Good day.

3:34 PM, January 20, 2006  
Anonymous Mary in LA said...

But what happened in 1977??? Somebody please tell me!

Aup, where are you? Hopefully you're not a hit-and-run troll...

3:42 PM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

mary,

I wish I knew what happened in 1977--did a law pass that we all missed that emancipated women from their husbands and fathers?

Anonymous 3:34,

Greg...is that you again?

4:26 PM, January 20, 2006  
Blogger jw said...

anonymous: I make no admission: I state a strongly held opinion, "Sexism from either side does not help the situation." Women's contempt for men, on the internet, is legion.

There are more than a million women's sites almost all of which are include contempt for men. Few take a stance against that. When a man makes a sexist statement about women ... he is jumped on a soundly trounced. The difference in and of itself is violently sexist.

As for laws? You want cites? I could give them to you. I could type pages ... I will not do it. Here's why:

I've done it before. I've given the cites a thousand or more times. The result is universally that the requestor will deconstruct my post, rip it up, turn every form of mental gymnastics available and say to me that I hate women. I've been through this too many times and I no longer play the game: PERIOD.

My time and emotions are not to be used to satisfy the twisted sexism of some person I do not know. That in no way says anything about YOU. It does say that the experience of providing proof has been so universally sexist and just-plain-sickening that I will no longer even try to play the game.

You will find that this is true of most men who have been in gender-politics for more than a few years.

4:21 AM, January 21, 2006  
Blogger BobH said...

To JW:

To paraphrase you, I think, women's attitude seems to be: "When a man criticizes female behavior, it's because the man is defective (e.g., having no sense of humor). When a woman criticizes male behavior, it's because men are defective." After you encounter this enough times, you learn to just keep your mouth shut. Then, you're accused of not expressing your feelings.

Strange, I never get this sort of crap from my dog or cats.

12:25 PM, January 21, 2006  
Anonymous scooby said...

But what happened in 1977??? Somebody please tell me!

I was born. So I guess I must be God's gift to women. :-P

7:39 PM, January 21, 2006  
Blogger Mr. Snitch said...

"Anyone out there have other ideas to reduce... negative attitudes about males..."

You're already doing it. This needs to come from women. Men can and must help, but those who do so tend to get marginalized. Men who speak out must be repulsive, unfit to live with, cowardly, etc., to utter a complaint about women. (We have to develop a thicker skin about this, of course. Let's face it - giving in to the 'men are inferior' meme is just easier to do. Like sitting in the back of the bus when you're told to.)

My own post on this, which you and your husband graciously linked, was picked up on two leftist sites and viciously trashed, by men (scoring brownie points for so doing) and women (standing up to a male bully). But I fully expected that. It's worth noting is that male-bashing is not unrelated to a number of leftist issues, particularly entitlement, a subject that has come up often in these threads. Substitute the word "male" for "government" in any number of leftist arguments and this begins to become clear. Therefore (as one of my commenters noted, and some of yours as well), male-bashing is more prevalent in "blue" states (and urban/blue areas within states of any color) than it is elsewhere. (I cannot explain why your first commenter, Dave from NYC, is unfamiliar with this, but then again I do not know his circumstances.)

I believe it's important to understand and explore how (and why) these issues are linked before we can expect to see much in the way of progress on this issue.

As far as claims of "stereotyping" women in these threads, that's a complete charade. I have read many comments here from men who love their wives. And much of what I have seen from men is clearly either anger of frustration. I'd bet if you got past the anger you'd see that most of these men recognize decent women when they encounter them. Otherwise, why would they feel they can comment on a woman's site?

Despite the book that started this thread, and the link earlier to Dr. Schlessinger's book, I do not believe the definitive book on this subject has been written. Yet in the space of just a few days, I've seen lots of posted ideas which could be followed through.

We should find someone to do just that, follow through on this subject. Should be a psychiatrist, I think. Better still it should be written by a woman. Someone in a happy marriage is a plus. Attractive is always good, gotta do those TV book tours. Someone who could bring warmth to the subject. Someone who feels passionately about the subject, because this is one of those issues that often winds up defining a career. Someone willing to say that the bum legal and cultural rap men have received hurts society in many ways.

Do we know anyone like that?

12:59 AM, January 22, 2006  
Blogger Helen said...

Mr. Snitch,

Thanks for your comments--I have often thought of writing a book on the topic of how men are being treated in American culture and like you, I believe that it is tied to the left in some ways. The "feminist" men who allow the male bashing and in fact, revel in it, are in my opinion, simply cowards who are taking the easy way out of masculinity. I know these types of guys and really despise them--their life is easier as a result of going along with their wives on all feminist issuess (while secretly laughing behind their backs), never having to stand up to anyone physically or help anyone because they are cowards --just watch what happens if you encounter trouble while with these guys--they often run or are ineffectual. Anyway--there is a whole book needed about how the left is ruining men's rights as well as women's. They fear masculinity and try to take away anything that smacks of it--which is why they are for gun control, against any type of war despite the consequences of not acting and jump at the chance to legislate against men (VAWA etc.). I could go on but perhaps at some point, I will write a book that explores this topic further.

Oh, and as far as the leftist blogs picking up on your post--it shows you are getting to them. I just laugh when they get ahold of my posts. The funniest part for me is that before I was blogging, I noticed on some leftist blogs discussions of how Reynold's wife being a psychologist would hopefully keep him more moderate--yeah right. Now that I am blogging, I read, "At least Reynold's tries to be moderate--his wife doesn't even try." I find it hilarious.

6:48 AM, January 22, 2006  
Anonymous Jephnol said...

If females are so much more loving and peaceful than men, why are the rates of domestic violence among lesbians as high as those of heterosexual couples?

I watched a world championship female boxing round last night, and the ladies were both covered in blood. The fight went to finish and it was hailed as one of the most exciting fights in the last year—male or female.

If women want reasoned equality I’m all for it, but when they start claiming moral superiority over men, based on their own history of peacefulness, loving, and maternal instincts, it will cast a light on their dirty little secret: Women are only as human as men.

11:49 AM, January 22, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mr. snitch said:

"And much of what I have seen from men is clearly either anger of frustration. I'd bet if you got past the anger you'd see that most of these men recognize decent women when they encounter them."

hm. interesting. wherever you see the word "men" substitute the word "women".

11:58 AM, January 22, 2006  
Blogger Salamandyr said...

The difference, I think you'll agree, is in the one case you are referring to men in the equivalent of therapy, given an opportunity to loose some of the bile they have swallowed for years...and in the other, women casually dropping the equivalent of the "n" word in casual conversation.

It's not all women, but casual belittlement comes way too easy to way too many. Tearing down rather than building up seems to be an essential component of too much of female relations with men.

2:22 PM, January 23, 2006  
Anonymous vc said...

I think a lot of the "man-bashing" comes from the way that men (especially young men) have become accustomed to treating women. But, before you start yelling at me, let me say that I think that the blame for that is equal between men and women. Lately, every man I meet wants sex with no relationship. This makes me think that men are pigs. That is, until I realize that the reason that they are behaving this way is because a majority of the time, it works! A lot of women are pigs, too. Why should a man make a commitment when he can get all the sex that he wants without one? How do we solve that one?

4:56 PM, January 23, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

mark:

i feel you, in terms of the social acceptability of man-bashing i guess. but this is not really therapy. and it's public. so it doesn't make it any more advisable to bash women here. besides, i do still hear plenty of stupid women jokes and women-bashing. but maybe that's because i live in the south.

i guess my point is that we all have plenty to complain about with the other sex. but it gets us nowhere. women may have simply stooped to the same level of men 30 years ago, by belittling them the way women were belittled. and certainly, that is not progressive. now, men have the opportunity to show how it is done--to take the high road. but that's not what is happening here anyway.

but your point is well-made.

vc:

so, what? i'm supposed to withhold sex in order to get a man to want a commitment with me? this is a common mistake women make. if you want a commitment, then clearly any guy that would EVER think like that is not the man to be messing with. withholding the sex wont make him any more apt to commit. but if i just want sex, and sometimes women do, then that is the go-to guy. nothing wrong with that. this is just as bad as the men who complain about flighty, gold-digging women. i'm pretty sure it's the choice. if you get with a woman who dresses to the nines, wears alot of jewelry and makeup and you met her in a club, what in the hell did you expect anyway, you know?

11:30 AM, January 24, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And sometimes women can be so intent on bashing men that they stop listening. Warren Farrell has a book entitled, Women Can't Hear What Men Don't Say: Destroying Myths, Creating Love,

Dr Farrell was wrong, women don't listen to what men do say.

Any complaints of any kind will get a man called a whiner, sexually
dysfunctional, and/or a bigot who just want women barefoot and pregnant
in the kitchen.

Women don't give men the consideration they demand, and to the best
of my knowledge, at least in the US, they never have.

All standards are double standards.

Warren Farrell was totally off the mark on this one. Read the introduction
to The Myth Of Male Power and find out the kind of double standards that
make him the darling of the feminist set. It's simple, men are always wrong,
women are always right.

The astounding thing is that you talk as if this was new and some sea
change. The male bashing started in the 1960's and it's been more strident
each and every year.

Oh yes, women demand a committment from the man, but they give none in
return. Marriage is not a commitment for the woman, and she will profit
from dissolving it even if she is totally and the only one at fault. Just
another double standard.

9:45 PM, January 31, 2006  
Anonymous Azazel said...

It does seem that the pendulum is swinging towards a Misandrynistic social construct.

I know alot of Women who state that they are feminist, My retort is I'm Masclinist. Generally coining the term Masclinist brings forth images of male "Barbarity". By barbarity I mean the male social construct that has been ingrained in us 'males' since we were boys.

I think that it is not the men verse women argument that is the problem, but society views on what men and women should be that is the problem. And this also branches out into other "'ism's" that dominate the bigotry of today.

Truely Men and women are the same... and to say that they are different is also true but i think that any differences between people should be looked at on a case by case basis. but then again you hit a socially constructed barrier.

To put it bluntly I've had these things going round in my head for months now and I think without massive social change little can be done about the collapse of the 'ism's' in our society.

4:05 PM, February 07, 2006  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dr. Helen I am disgusted by your website. Do you know how many times I have heard about a boy being brought up with a lot of sisters, " oh, poor thing, being around all those girls." If a boy grows up with all girls, everyone feels sorry for him. I had a father who always said " the women in my life!" He grew up with sisters and four daughters. Do you know how that makes me feel?! Every woman that I talk to says that her husband is controlling and nasty. In today's society it is hard to find a man who is compasionate and loving. It seems that they were only attentive when women were serving their every need and were quiet and sweet. Now that women are able to speak their minds, we are considered bitches. I don't feel that we are asking to much for the same respect and civil treatment in return. You are doing such a great injustice for abused women all over the world. You are also empowering all the abusers in this world, giving them reason to keep on abusing. I know what I'm talking about, I once was abused by my father and husband. I am not a man hater. I actually love men. I love their company, their humor and carefreeness. I actually sometimes envy their selfcenteredness. I am ashamed to say that you are the same gender as me.

2:26 AM, March 15, 2007  
Blogger Masculist Philogynist said...

"Jenny said...

jw and Dr. Helen, I think you're right about men perpetuating misandry among themselves. It's rather sad to think that men actually believe the crap some women spout.

I blame second-wave feminism for the misandry that is running rampant, nearly unchecked in our society. Many men (including, until recently, myself) of my generation labor under the assumption that we must apologize for being born with a Y-chromosome, and it is something that infuriates me.

I harbor no animosity toward women for the fact that they have been poisoned by the misandristic propaganda started by second-wave feminism. They were indoctrinated as children, and not to blame for the movement as a whole.

I agree, however, that they should pony up for their behavior, and that said propaganda does, in fact, not excuse them for it.

I guess the only way to really get out of this is to teach kids-- teach both boys and girls that the sexes really are equal. Not "should be made" equal or "should be treated" equally, but that neither sex is better than the other. Teach boys that they have right to stand up for themselves, and teach girls that feminist rhetoric doesn't absolve them of their bad behavior."

I included this quote because I think it is a good thing to see, that, just as there were men who supported the feminist movement when it actually fought for equality, there are also at least a few women willing to step up to the plate for men as well.

12:08 AM, August 25, 2008  
Blogger Masculist Philogynist said...

"I guess the only way to really get out of this is to teach kids-- teach both boys and girls that the sexes really are equal. Not "should be made" equal or "should be treated" equally, but that neither sex is better than the other. Teach boys that they have right to stand up for themselves, and teach girls that feminist rhetoric doesn't absolve them of their bad behavior."

Sorry. I forgot to put the quotation marks around that paragraph, and am making corrections, so as to avoid accidental plagiarism.

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11:37 PM, March 14, 2009  
Blogger Masculist Philogynist said...

"Lately, every man I meet wants sex with no relationship."

With they way neo-feminism encourages women to act, why would we want one? Women would never put up with the things we have to.

We are expected to stoically accept mental and even physical abuse (before anyone denies this, I know a man who was arrested for assault after his wife broke his nose and forehead with a baseball bat), and women wonder why we don't want a relationship?

Let's hear my favorite line: "You're afraid of commitment." I get to hear about how horrible I am as a man for not catering to a woman's every whim, and a woman wants me to legally bind myself to accept such treatment? You're damned right, I'm afraid of commitment! I don't want to know what you're going to turn into afterward!

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