Wednesday, December 07, 2005

Is Barbara Streisand on Crack?

As the Magic 8 Ballwould say, "Signs point to yes." Elitist Barbara Streisand is upset that Jonah Goldberg has "replaced" Robert Scheer at the LA Times. Here is Mr. Goldberg's reply.

39 Comments:

Blogger DRJ said...

It's fun to read Jonah Goldberg fisk Ms. Streisand's letter and thank you for directing us to the link. But there's no hope that Barbra Streisand will ever understand how ignorant and misguided she is. These Sreisand-Clooney-Baldwin celebrities are intellectual lost causes.

I am a conservative but I also value true intellectual diversity. My oldest son is attending a liberal university because exposure to a broad range of ideas - liberal, conservative, and all the variations - is important. There is value to cogent liberal views and analysis, but Barbra Streisand is ill-equipped to offer them.

I hope someday our educational system, particularly K-12, will teach core subjects and educate our children so they have the tools to think analytically and write well. The next generations will need both conservative and liberal ideas to make the world a better place, but they can't accomplish anything with inferior educations.

2:58 PM, December 07, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You have to love Barbra's idea of "diversity": more people who think like her.

It's important to note, as Goldberg states, that the execreble Scheer was not REPLACED by Goldberg. Instead, a bunch of people were let go, and a new crop of editorial writers hired.

The balance will certainly still be pro-Left.

But it is nice to see a paper openly decide to have both Right and Left opinions on the....opinion page. Given how the public appears to feel at the voting booth, this only makes sense. It also doesn't harm a newspaper in the slightest to present both sides of an opinion-based issue.

Funny how not only Streisand, but members of Congress wrote a protest letter to the LA TIMES about the heave-ho of Scheer. It's true. Check it out:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-dennis-kucinich/to-the-publisher-of-the-_b_11271.html

Can you imagine the hue and cry if, for example, Novak (yes, he calls himself a Democrat, but you know what I mean) got dumped, and a group of Republican senators and congresscritters wrote to protest?

Why we would never hear the end of "...another chilling example of how politics impinges on journalistic freedom..."

It all comes back to Orwell.

And I am deeply worried by anyone who is threatened by a newspaper that has a "column Left" and "column Right" approach to editorials. Sounds like such people don't want debate, but ideological purity.

Orwell, again.

"Eric Blair"

3:04 PM, December 07, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

Mr. Blair,

That is why I put the word replace in quotes--as Goldberg points out that he did not replace him but was hired along with others. Streisand's outburst about the LA Times reminds me of how some liberal friends of mine respond when I talk to them about the one sidedness of the MSM--they always yell--"What about that damned Fox News!" They are just angry that there is one station that dares allow the rest of us another point of view. Thanks for the link.

3:15 PM, December 07, 2005  
Blogger dadvocate said...

I can't add anything to what to Goldberg's reply. Glad he emphasized the left's idea of diversty, more of the same. I just don't see how the L.A. Times forgot that all personnel and editorial decisions must be cleared by Barb. She makes Clooney almost look humble and sane.

3:40 PM, December 07, 2005  
Blogger Helen said...

dadvocate,

That's a scary thought.

3:43 PM, December 07, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

I have to say that diversity of opinion is an overrated goal. I'm all for freedom of speech, but that's not quite the same thing as promoting diversity.

For example, when I ask my students to find the antiderivate of x squared, I give no credit for diversity of opinion. The correct answer is x cubed over three, plus a constant. Other answers are wrong. (Granted, if you forget the constant, it's not completely wrong.)

As for Jonah Golberg, I'm not even sure that he wants me to read his columns. The title of his December 2 column is "Eat Yuletide, You Atheistic Bastard!". Now, I had thought that Yule is a pagan term for the winter holidays. But since Goldberg refers to atheists like me as bastards, even if he means it as a "joke", I'm not very interested in his explanations at the moment.

Then again, I hadn't been reading the LA Times regularly before, and I probably still won't.

4:41 PM, December 07, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Greg:

You forgot to snort up some snuff, brush the remains from your laced cuffs, and have the servants pour another glass of port. I realize you intend to come off as a snobbish elitist, but really, it is quite overdone.

5:48 PM, December 07, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

elitists snort snuff? who knew?

ah, you're just jealous because you didn't know the antiderivate of x squared.

6:11 PM, December 07, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yup. That's exactly right. But you have to admit that Greggie has that whole "World of Commander McBragg" upper crust act down.

7:17 PM, December 07, 2005  
Blogger Jacques Cuze said...

Who the hell calls the integral an antiderivate? googling for +integral +antiderivate yields 181 cretins. Apparently your just stepping in front of your students is pretty mindblowing for them.

DrLaura, if you don't think that Jonah Goldberg is a step down from Robert Scheer in quality of ideas, than you don't think.

11:32 PM, December 07, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

If you google for antiderivative by itself, you get 69,000 hits, the first one being the MathWorld page for it: "see indefinite integral." It's a standard enough term.

I don't think that I am any more "mind-blowing" than anyone else who teaches calculus. I'm also not used to thinking of calculus as "upper crust". After all, AP calculus is a standard high-school course. I suppose that calculus was "upper crust" once upon a time, but not in 21st century America.

12:12 AM, December 08, 2005  
Blogger $CAV3NG3R said...

Okay I have to say something here. I generally refrain from commenting on partisan politics because most people refuse to see the forest for the trees in addition to the incessangt name-calling that attends what can only be called diatribes while refusing to deal with the issues.

Greg:

Two things you have to realise about having diversity of opinion on a news paper/mag as a goal. In this day of a deeply divided America, it's to their benefit profitability-wise that they incorporate differing views on issues. Secondly, you were the one that mentioned something about an echo-chamber in the comment thread about the movie Syriana. In a paper that provides differing opinions about issues those who would otherwise not buy it because it's the paper of the other side get to read views similar to theirs and maybe contemplate the issues from another angle.

Maybe it's because I didn't grow up here but I find it really amusing and sometimes disconcerting that most people don't want to discuss issues and resort to ad hominem attacks or downright insults to make their points in this shouting match that American politics seems to have become. I read Instapundit because he deals with issues almost all of the time. Same goes for Althouse. I don't always agree with their various points of view, but I like to think that an issue is only important to the extent that it requires a solution which in my opinion is the purpose of a discussion/argument.

I think your math analogy is incomplete because you do realize that within the particular system of math that you mention you are right but who is to say that another system might not be thought of and constructed in which your claim is false. Euclidean and non-euclidean geometry comes to mind.

The diversity of opinion goal is not to accomodate nonsensical reasoning but to be able to view things from differing angles, because you never know there might be something you're missing.

I would imagine that a scientific mind such as yours would be acutely aware of this, considering the amount of people that have said things like, "Everything that would be invented has already been invented" even before the television or the bipolar junction transistor or the computer. I supported your, "watch the movie before you judge it" thesis (you can always wait for a friend to have it on dvd for those who feel that clooney doesn't deserve a red cent of theirs) but this I do not, not that you need my opinion on anything.

10:18 AM, December 08, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

$CAV3NG3R: As I said, I am all for freedom of speech. I am also for open debate, but only when the right answers are unclear. There is a limit to the usefulness of diversity of opinion. If you expand diversity of opinion to include clearly incorrect conclusions — for example balancing Copernicus with the geocentric model of the universe — then it is no longer useful. Even completely wrong opinions are protected speech, as they should be, but "protected" is not the same thing as "useful". Neither the LA Times nor any newspaper should feel obliged to diversify good ideas with bad ideas.

Which brings me to Jonah Goldberg. Let's take his recent column title: "Eat Yuletide, You Atheistic Bastard!" Evidently the LA Times wants to balance manners with simple adolescent rudeness. (Which, as that kind of rudeness goes, is usually excused as "humor.") Well, the LA Times is free to do that, and I'm not going to protest it as Barbara Streisand did. On the other hand, I don't see why it is useful.

Also, a tangential point about the math: I am completely familiar with non-Euclidean geometry and it has nothing to do with diversity of opinion. You could call it diversity of topic. There is no more opposition between Euclidean and non-Euclidean geometry than between Phillips-head and flathead screwdrivers.

11:34 AM, December 08, 2005  
Anonymous Teresa said...

Greg... thought I should point out that columnists don't write their own headlines for their columns - there are headline writers at the paper who do that. The headline is then approved by the editor... could it be that the editor might want to make Goldberg's column unpalatable before anyone goes to read it? Nah - that would never happen... So, I don't think you can blame Goldberg for that one... now the rest of the column is his - feel free to rail away at it.

As for his reply to Ms. Streisand... he's right on with that. She thinks "diversity" means a whole bunch of liberal op-ed people. Not liberal vs conservative op-ed people. I always find that amusing.

11:57 AM, December 08, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

That particular headline is a direct quote from the column. Although as I said, Goldberg was passing it off as a joke.

I do not know whether Goldberg writes his own headlines. Ordinary journalists generally don't; opinion columnists are a different category.

12:05 PM, December 08, 2005  
Blogger $CAV3NG3R said...

In response to the math issue. Someone looks at an object/shape and declares, "it's a triangle". Another person looks at it from another angle (both are observing at this point) and says, "it's a spherical triangle" That's a diversity of opinion. Additional information changes the extant agreement they might have had on the shape of the object*. Now if the fellow who declared the shape a triangle refuses to consider and attempt to disprove/prove the other persons point of view then we have a problem. That's what I meant with my statement on geometry not that euclidean and non-euclidean were in direct opposition. So many other examples abound but you Sir already know this.

* trying to avoid saying "shape of the shape"

12:36 PM, December 08, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

$CAV3NG3R: It's a spherical triangle if its angles add to more than 180 degrees. In the Euclidean case, they add to exactly 180. If the angles aren't given, then you can't know.

Here is the sort of diversity of opinion that you are describing: Consider this fish. In your opinion, is it a salmon or a mackerel? I think that it's a red herring.

12:53 PM, December 08, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Antiderivative integrals notwithstanding, why would any of us give a rats rear end what Babs thinks about LAT personnel decisions (or any other topic)?

4:49 PM, December 08, 2005  
Blogger Greg Kuperberg said...

Beats me. To feel smug for being on the other side, I suppose.

4:54 PM, December 08, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

And "smug" is a word with which you have endless experience, Greggie.

12:29 AM, December 09, 2005  
Anonymous sandpiper said...

Barbra steisand may or may not be on crack but she is just plain cracked a real cracked urn

9:58 AM, December 09, 2005  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Linked over to Streisand's web site and thought I had reached Barbara Cartland's in error. That picture is definitely "Dame Barbra"

11:33 AM, December 18, 2005  
Anonymous David R. said...

So Barbara Streisand stopped her subscription to the LA Times. I bet there are a lot of tears over there for her. Why does anyone care what some of the spoiled Hollowood types think anyhow. Are they really a bunch to look up to. What really matters is what the general public thinks anyhow, for we are the majority. Many in Hollywood, though not all, are like spoiled little children who think they should have whatever they want and that whatever they say people should listen to. They are entertainers, or in the old days some would have been court jesters. They should do what they do best and entertain us. If they want to be politicians, then run for office and take your foot out of your mouth. But like they say opinions are like as_holes and everyone has one. It really is nice to see a paper openly decide to have both Right and Left opinions on the....opinion page. Given how the public appears to feel at the voting booth, this only makes sense. It also doesn't harm a newspaper in the slightest to present both sides of an opinion-based issue.

2:53 PM, October 10, 2006  
Blogger serket said...

Her name is spelled: Barbra.

quxxo: "DrLaura, if you don't think that Jonah Goldberg is a step down from Robert Scheer in quality of ideas, than you don't think." Sorry, but you have the wrong doctor.

Greg: "Consider this fish. In your opinion, is it a salmon or a mackerel? I think that it's a red herring." I think Christian when I see that. Quit being obstinate with your mathematical logic and gives us examples of political views which are definitely right and definitely wrong.

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2:43 AM, June 07, 2009  

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