Thursday, June 16, 2011

"It’s not how much money you have, or looks, or power, its PRESENCE.."

I read an article this morning (via Instapundit) entitled "18 Things Men Need To Know That Women Won’t Tell Them." The Your Tango expert article is written by Deanna Frazier, the author of Dating 101: The Second, Third, or Fourth Time Around. She states that "It’s not how much money you have, or looks, or power, its PRESENCE.."

Really? Then why is all the advice given about how to improve your looks, confidence (which on some level gives the illusion of power), and money, because without it, you can't hire the coaches, and buy the manicures and hand lotions you need to impress the women.

Let's take a look at her advice on how to improve your luck with the ladies. First up:
It truly doesn't matter how much money you make, whether or not you’re overweight, walk with a limp or are going bald. Many wonderful women would love to have you in their lives.

If this is true, why are there so many balding, overweight broke guys out there who can't get a date? Why are most women fighting over the "alpha males" while leaving the rest home playing video games if they really wanted the bald and broke? If these guys had the "presence," outlined in the article, would they get a date? Somehow, I doubt it.

"Presence" seems to be obtained by looking good with expensive haircuts, manicures and lotions. The right haircut will impress as "the look of money or prosperity comes from shiny, healthy well-trimmed ends and natural looking color" (#9). If women aren't impressed by money, then why is the author telling men to have expensive looking hair that "looks like money." I thought money didn't matter. I'm confused, are you?

And men aren't even supposed to look like men. They should not be wearing plaid or flannel shirts (#10) and if they mow the lawn, they shouldn't let anyone know it. Cover it with a manicure or hand lotion (#13 and #14).

If any male reader out there has gotten a date by walking up to a woman and saying "You look very elegant and sophisticated" (#18), while sporting hand lotion, a manicure, and a non-interrupting style while she talks (#3), let us know. Perhaps I'm missing something here.



Blogger Zorro said...

Helen...Your last paragraph: Epic!

4:10 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger HMT said...

The article is BS but I don't need to tell anyone here that. Remember the saying "80% of life is showing up"? Well that's pretty much the only thing you need to know about getting a date. It's a game of statistics.

1) Go where the fish are biting
2) Go where there are the kind of fish you want to catch.

you like dancing? go where there's dancing.

You want a christian partner? Hit up the church social.

You want someone who likes mountain biking? Find a MTB group.

You want to sit around, play video games and complain about everything? I can't help you. Not that it can't work, I know couples who do exactly that but I can't for the life of me figure out how they found each other. I'm guessing it's a long shot.

That advice is too simple, it's not worth a book.

Once you HAVE the date, vetting that the person is worth investing in a relationship... THAT is worth a book.

4:18 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Unknown said...

"Perhaps I'm missing something here."

It would be 'men need to improve, women are already good enough' attitude m'thinks.

Thankfully, you're missing it.

4:22 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Carol said...

I dunno, I went with a nerdy looking guy who was balding and broke, who had "presence" which consisted of being loud, noisy, and funny. But it came naturally to him and doubt he could have faked it.

I would have stayed with him but he had a wandering

4:23 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Will said...

Like I said over there - if women want to date women, it is perfectly OK these days. No need to expect men to turn themselves into women to get some play.

5:24 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger we're doomed said...

Presence=money! I think the article has some good points. But!! I think the BS label is very close to the truth. And of course, badboy=presence. How about. Boy and girl have a relationship and it makes both of them a better person when they are with the other. Maybe that's the way to go. For the record, I still believe in Santa Claus.

6:28 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Cham said...

I wouldn't go with a badboy attitude. There is nothing that is a bigger turn-off than a man bragging about what a baddy he is. Makes me want to run in the opposite direction. I figure if I stick around I'll end up dead or arrested.

8:28 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Zorro said...

Cham: Badboys don't brag. They're so full of themselves that they refuse to qualify themselves to anyone.

I have an uncle who is a bad boy from the 1950s (he could have doubled for Brando in The Wild One).

8:57 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger br549 said...

Every couple weeks or so I go out and meet a group of ten or so male and female friends from junior high and high school days. All are single, mainly divorced and know or remember each other's spouses. The personnel change slightly from time to time.

All of the males are in the over 50K but under 100K range. The females are generally under 50K. Earnings, I'm speaking of.

We have fun, dance, have a couple drinks. Even though we have all known each other for basically decades, the females seem want to know who has the deepest pockets. Trust me on that.

Makes my attitude one of wham, bam, thank you ma'am.

9:21 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger missred said...

i read the article and dismissed it until you posted it, helen.
presence is something.. a smile a bit of confidence, a twinkle in the eye
i am willing to overlook the physical crap and am actually attracted to bald men.. have been for years
in fact bald men, those that choose to go bald are much more confident than others
where do you come up with your definition of presence, helen?
bad boys, zorro mean nothing to me

10:40 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Kurt said...

HMT--your advice seems more reasonable to me. I always hate all the mixed signals of these so-called "advice" articles. And as you've all mostly pointed out above, "presence" is so broad as to be meaningless. To some it means wealth and to some it means a "bad boy" attitude. I suppose it is a dodge instead of saying simply "confidence" because many women love to complain about men who are confident, even though they often say that is what they are looking for.

11:27 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Trust said...

Never take a woman's advice about what women want. Forget what they say, what what they do, and more importantly who they do.

11:37 PM, June 16, 2011  
Blogger Southern Man said...

Many women have an impressive capacity for self-delusion and the overlap between what they say they want, what they think they want, and what they actually want is surprisingly small. You need read no further than the byline to know what category this article is in. As is often written on The Blog Formerly Known As Roissy, advice for women written by other women is often wrong* (because many women don't understand what they actually want from a man) but is an interesting view of what women think they want. The entire basis of PUA or game or whatever you want to call it is to understand what women actually want and then make them believe that you can provide it. If you can do this, you're in. If you can't, work on it until you can.

*Dr. Helen excepted, of course.

11:57 PM, June 16, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Someone got paid to write that crap? Can I have a job like that?

8:09 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I hate baby-soft hands on a man. Instinctively recoil from it. Mostly because it's just so viscerally feminine, and touch is an important sense in attraction; but partly because my mind immediately leaps into the gutter and I wonder why he spends so much time rubbing copious amounts of lotion on his hands.

8:27 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

Ah, presence. You need that one ephemeral thing that is virtually impossible to define. One of my son's friends always does something goofy when he enters and leaves a room so people will remember him. (Yes, it's an intentional act he plans.)

I think the author meant "presents." Women like lots of presents that indicate lots of money.

Last weekend, my daughter and I were driving down a country road near our house on a hot day. (We live on a country road.) I started chuckling and my daughter asked me why. I had seen an older guy standing on his porch with no shirt on while his wife was mowing the front yard. Maybe that's how he kept his hands clean enough to get her to marry him.

I doubt a non-interrupting style would work well. Too many women I know don't stop talking long enough for a non-interrupter to say anything.

8:37 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ha ha ha! "Presents".

8:38 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

You don't need presence, you need pizzazz. Lots of pizzazz. And some money.

8:39 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just think if an evil scientist released some kind of drug into the environment that made men lose every trace of a sex drive.

Then they would look at women and see ... what?

8:41 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Love is the illusion that one woman differs from another" H.L. Mencken


Make yourself attractive and then see who is interested in you. That's the easier way to do it. Don't chase.

I absolutely find men who put women up on pedestals idiotic. They're just people. And it gets even more idiotic when you think that the women highest up on the pedestal are the high-maintenance types of women: who are arguably selling sex AND an illusion to men, but who are arguably immoral and worthless beyond that one tactic (which is admittedly going to make them rich if they do it right). The rottenest women are highest up on the totem pole.

9:17 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Dannytheman said...

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I read the story yesterday afternoon, and felt the author basically had no to little clue. I have never had a manicure, wear what ever I want and I eat animals I shoot with a rifle. I sense the author of the story wouldn't get that image of a man.

Thank you Dr. Helen, for calling out her ultra feminist ideals!

10:08 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Sandeep said...

There is a difference between :

(i) all that women would like all men to come across as being ("nice", lovey-dovey etc.).

(ii) all that will cause women to go after a particular man.

Women who write columns like the one you quoted are trying to sell (i) under the label of (ii).

10:09 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger d smith kaich jones said...

I read this article aloud to my boyfriend yesterday - it was the end of the day and we needed a good laugh to start the evening.
The acceptable pickup lines were icing on the silly cake of the article.

10:13 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger valjean said...

Dr. Helen,

I'm pretty surprised your husband posted this ridiculous link yesterday. I was sucked in too -- but upon reading it found it beautifully absurd. My favorite bit was the exhortation to "be original!" ... followed by 17 other "tips" that amounted to "do what everyone else is doing" -- or what I recommend. Cute.

10:21 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Morgan said...

she actually had me for a little bit and i thought the article might be alright-- the attitude and neatness and grooming stuff to cover up the baldness or brokeness is a generally safe rule in pickup. but my hands are consistently ridiculed for being soft, and those pickup lines at the end are custom-tailored for older divorced women that have had enough of games (and even then are weak). you pull that 'elegant' line out with a normal (not divorced, no kids, no abusive ex) and you will get exactly what you deserve.

10:30 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Tucanae Services said...

This is really simple. The author is attempting to identify the signals of wealth without attempting to sound like a gold digger. So the book is just setting guys up to be marks for gold diggers. Seems rather plain.

Alternate title -- "A Bald Fool and His Money are Soon Parted."

10:33 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Porphyrogenitus said...

I thought Glenn posted that link for the lulz.

I couldn't stop laughing as I read it.

10:34 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Women like lots of presents that indicate lots of money."

No. No presents over 20 bucks before sex, excluding vacations and entertainment. Especially if she's substantially younger than you. Do it and she'll read it as you're insecure and you're sucking up for sex. Women *hate* suck ups.

And unless you're rich, in which case she knows the relative value of the gifts is actually very small, take it easy on big ticket items until one year has passed. After that, feel free. And if you are rich, feel obligated. If you can afford to be generous and aren't, she'll read it as you're either a cheapskate or uncaring. Both are big turn-offs.

10:38 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Howie said...

The article should be titled.

18 things that a woman will eventually use to dump you for a caveman.

Women want Jr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

Hyde needs to make his appearance in the late evening.

Jekyll bores her to death but she gets hungry and likes shiny things.

10:43 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Gospace said...

br549 said...
"Every couple weeks or so I go out and meet a group of ten or so male and female friends from junior high and high school days. All are single, mainly divorced and know or remember each other's spouses. The personnel change slightly from time to time."

Where I live now, I know a lot of people like that. The closest I live (that I'm aware of) to anyone in my HS class is 100 or so miles; the furthest, really about 12,500 miles. I live about 300 miles from my HS. Most that I keep track of that are married have been married once and still are. None are married to their HS sweethearts. I don't think sticking around ye olde hometowne is a really successful strategy. It limits the available dating pool. And after a few years in the real world, you are not who you were in high school.

I do agree with HMT who said
1) Go where the fish are biting
2) Go where there are the kind of fish you want to catch.

The other keys I've seen to success in marriage have been echoed by many. Wait until your mid 20's, have a job, and then wait a year or two before starting trying to have children. Use that year or two to get to know each other.

Oh, one other you may or may not agree with. Only win arguments with your wife on really important issues; and remember that not all that much is really important.

10:44 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Greg Toombs said...

From the article: "Learn to become charismatic."

Exactly how does one do that? I thought that was something you're born with,, not learned.

10:46 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Maddad said...

I noticed the article didn't say much about social networking. I've had great success on Twitter. It's very simple, just take a picture of your penis and Twitter away. Trust me, they'll never even notice your grass stained hands. They never noticed my wedding ring.

10:52 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Ern said...

Actually, looks have a lot to do with it. I don't think that I look like anything special. I've broken my nose once, and it shows. I have a large bald spot in back. My hairline has receded (and continues to recede), and the hair that I have on top is thin. I've kept myself in very good physical shape, but nobody would ever compare me to a thirty-five-year-old Robert Redford. But all that I have to do is put my picture up in a dating website and lots of women contact me - attractive, well-educated women with good jobs. Unless "presence" or "charisma" comes through in a still picture, it can't be that. It's just my appearance.

10:57 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Jay Baldwin said...

Sounds like advice on a sure-fire way to get a date...with a bottle of hand lotion... to me.

10:59 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger rupert said...

My dating days are a bit behind me, but I'll bet if I sported some hand lotion (on my head), cut my nails (for a change) and made funny faces (while she talked), I'm sure I'd have a date shortly. Possibly with the local police or ER :-)

11:00 AM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds like advice on a sure-fire way to get a date...with a bottle of hand lotion... to me.

Well she did mention using hand lotion.

11:04 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Pellissippi Lodge 230 said...

THANK YOU, Dr. Helen! I read that post on your husband's site yesterday and thought "This is total BS!" Thanks for confirming that a metro-sexual loses to a lumberjack any day of the week.

11:10 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Roux said...

It's really all about lowering your expectations. With lowered expectations comes less disappointment.

Another thing may be getting into a committed relationship a little younger. A fit 25 years old man is probably a little more appealing than a 35 year old with a beer gut. I'm just sayin'...

11:15 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger submandave said...

RE: a non-interrupting style while she talks -

I haven't spoken to my wife in two weeks - I hate to interrupt.

Q: Why do men fart more than women?
A: Most women can't keep their mouth shut long enough to build up the required pressure.

Thanks for coming, I'll be here all week.

11:20 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Tsigane said...

Dr. Helen, suggestion for a future article: "Why Do Women Give Such Lousy Dating Advice?". Several commenters have touched on good answers, IMO.

11:21 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Steph said...

Point 14: Make sure your hands are clean (Who wants to touch hands dyed green from mowing the lawn?) Get a manicure if you have never had one.

I'm sorry, what? Hands? Dyed green? Let's get the basics down before we start giving advice on anything else.
This is a lawnmower.
You push it.
Across a lawn.
You wear shoes. Good ones, with closed toes.
Sometimes, if you're smart, you wear protective eyewear.
No dye, no hands.

11:33 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Gospace said...

I reread my comment and realized it was more about marriage than dating. So, along with what HMT said:

Be yourself before asking. During the first date, she'll figure out who/what you are. And if you got in on a deception, the chances of a second date are nil. (This doesn't apply to "players", who don't care, or con men, who have perfected the art of deception.)

Be a nice guy, and do all those things the 50's etiquette book says- open her door, hold her chair, etc. If she doesn't like nice guys, and doesn't respond to a request for a 2nd date, it's her loss, not yours.

Set your sights realistically. I didn't date in HS. I was (mostly) a nerd. The only girls I asked out were cheerleader types. Not surprisingly, they all said no. This doesn't mean you cannot ask out a supermodel- just be prepared for rejection. If the chance arises to ask out of your league, go ahead, ask. The worst that can happen will be a "No." I've heard it a lot.

And don't give up. If you have ever worked in retail, or glanced at people-of-wal-mart, you'll soon realize that there is a woman for every man and a man for every woman. Whether of not they should be allowed to reproduce is a wholly separate question.

Oh, and advice for women. That guy you're dating? He's going to be that same guy after you're married. If he's cheating on you now, he won't stop. If he gets drunk every night, he'll continue doing so. Don't plan on changing him.

11:52 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger erictrimmer said...

Expensive looking haircut worked for Dick Tremayne

11:54 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Joe said...

For those who didn't read the article, let me translate it for you:

Men, what we women think you don't know is that women are even more shallow than you think.

Oh, and we really like gay men.

11:56 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Tsigane said...

You ask a woman what women want.
"Be a gentleman; buy her thoughtful gifts; be a good listener, etc." So while you're out shopping for a thoughtful gift, Mr. Bad Boy cruises up, she squeals with delight, jumps on the back of his Harley, and they're gone. Six months later she's back, pregnant, alone and missing some teeth from the times she needed to be put straight, and you're listening empathetically (i.e. in Beta-male fashion) as she tells you her tale of woe. You think she's going to see the error of her ways, but she's watching out the corner of her eye as she talks, hoping he'll be back to give her one more chance to prove she's woman enough for him.

My take: first, don't listen to what women say they want; watch what they do, what they respond to. Read articles like the above-mentioned only for entertainment purposes. Second, selectively take on alpha male characteristics, leaving out the violent/irresponsible/degenerate aspects. Learn from guys who are successful with women, even if their definition of success is different from yours (e.g. you want Mrs. Right, not multiple women to pump and dump).

11:57 AM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger CG said...

I don't know if it makes any guys here feel better, but I read the article -- especially the nice clothes bit, and thought...ewwww...metrosexual man. Icky.

Of course, I'm married and so not a target of the intended audience.

Funny is really important though. My husband wasn't rich when I married him, but he was and is just about the funniest guy I've ever met. (Literally, he's made me laugh until I've cried). Even when we were really poor I used to think, "Wow! He's so funny, I so totally scored!"

12:05 PM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, in the woman's defense, the "confident men are irresistible!" thing is true, although girlishly overstated.

It's impossible to have fun with a guy who's throwing off all kinds of anxious and insecure vibes. If you've already committed to spending the evening with a guy and he shows up like that, you've got to change his entire mental state or prepare to suffer hours of tension and awkwardness.

He has to be made to feel desirable and desired, confident and in control, which takes quite a bit of acting on a woman's part: non-verbal signals and verbal cues that communicate a nervous bashfulness, a breathless yet excited awareness of his physical proximity, etc.

It's exhausting. So much better when they bring their own confidence and the woman ends up the intimidated one.

12:12 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger The Ghost said...

I'm not a woman myself except after at least 10 shots, but I was also struck by how different that article was from other takes from women.

I think the author's thesis has merit, but it should be restated: "It’s not how much money you have, or looks, or power *per se*, it's PRESENCE.."

That is, money and looks and power are the most effective conveyors of presence.

Of course, her specific tips sound like the typical female advice dump where they list the things they like to think they're attracted to, or are attracted to on TV, but not the things they actually respond to.

12:39 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger jcmcn said...

Totally lost me with the hand lotion and manicure comment. So this woman is saying that she wants a man who has never used a hammer, saw, shovel, etc.? And no man who is competent with the above gets a manicure. You really want to be with such a complete absence of self-sufficiency?

12:54 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Stephen said...

I read this article and seemed to me the author's advice was the advice we have been hearing from so many "enlightened" women for years. That the best way for a man to get a woman is to be more like a woman.

No Thanks.

I will got a hair cut that requires more maintenance than washing and a quick combing. Hand lotion - not happening.

That's my presence.

12:55 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Martin said...

Moisturizing is important.

1:13 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Flapjack said...

You want presence... I'll give you presence.

When I get back from an eight mile run and peel off my soaking shirt and throw it on the floor in front of the washer. I then walk around shirtless and smelling like a musk ox for an hour cooling off.

She's never told me to pick up the shirt or cover up!

Now that's a presence.

1:16 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Kim said...

No presents (other than birthday and Christmas), period, until you're married. None. No Valentine's Day, Mother's Day or any of the other Hallmark Holidays.

ABSOLUTELY no "out-of-the-blue" presents. Any gifts should be of the "no asset" variety: flowers, meals, whatever. She wants assets, she's gotta offer you more than sex in return.

Don't buy into the De Beers marketing, either: she should get a small engagement ring, with the implicit (or explicit) promise that maybe, some day, when you've been together a long time, you'll buy her a bigger one, at which time she can decide whether she wants a bigger rock or an unforgettable trip to Paris.

Remember: a big rock for the engagement is an ego trip FOR HER (make her friends envious, show everyone that she's landed a wealthy guy, etc). It's a sucker bet -- especially if you break off the engagement and she gets to keep the 3-carat bauble.

Women are attracted to two things in a man: looks and power (money represents power, and in some cases, intellect does too). All the other crap (sense of humor, tenderness blah blah blah) is just marketing and packaging.

1:19 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Mimi said...

Hmm. I don't go for confidence in a man. I prefer a man who is slightly shy, reserved and insecure. Don't like bad boys, don't like 'alphas'.

I like a guy who I think will be loyal, caring towards me and appreciate my presence in his life.

In return, I'm happy to give him support, encouragement and praise... help him with the confidence may be lacking. I'll have his back and he'll have mine.

P.S. - It's not like I don't have the opportunity - I do get hit on by alpha-type guys (all ages), but they just don't interest me.

By the way - despite not liking 'alphas', I do appreciate a good-looking guy, and physical chemistry is very important to me. However, if I get the impression that they guy is aware of his attractiveness and struts it around, it's a total buzzkill. I love attractive guys who don't know that they are attractive.

'Gimme a beta male any day!' - more caring, more attentive sex, more loyalty.

P.S., Whether he is a more typically masculine male or a less macho type of male is not of that much importance to me - I've had chemistry with both kinds.

1:57 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger wtlf555 said...

I'm a big fan of your blog and analysis. I have to say that the author of the article is spot on. I'm a 48 year-old man who was married for almost 20 years and has been single for 6. Before marriage I did very little dating. After, I've become an accidental expert. I'm pretty far on the spectrum towards Aspergers. This made me VERY uncomfortable socially and also probably gave me the drive to single mindedly study the topic. I've read dozens of books on dating, relationships and sexuality, gone to sex ed classes, pick-up artist seminars, and talked for hours with men and women about romantic interactions. Not much came intuitively - I had to learn most everything. So here are my thoughts on the topic:
* "Presence" is merely excellent "branding". Yes a bad product can be well branded just like a dog of a guy can charming. The most surprising and frustrating thing I've learned in my 6 years of singleness is how bad women are at determining the quality of the "product" when it comes to men. Virtually "ALL" women fall for the guy with presence. With logic and with experience being a guy I can fairly easily see a bad guy with presence. Women seem to be totally blind to this. Smart, simple, shy, outgoing - it doesn't matter - the presence thing always works on women. These women wouldn’t go to a car lot and pick the fanciest car which plainly doesn’t have an engine! But they will with a guy! The presence thing plays on their need to feel important, desired, and alive so much that it overwhelms any logic they may have.
* Money and good looks make it easier for men to have or fake "presence" but don't mistake causation for correlation. I have the utmost respect for guys without the advantages who somehow have presence. God bless the debonair short, fat, bald guys!
* You’re wrong that a guy with good looks and money and other desirable traits will organically find women and romance. When I was first single I put myself out there and waited, and waited – nothing! I had the physical traits considered desirable, dressed impeccably, had money, always faithful, no drug or alcohol problems, and was fun to be around. But I had no presence and no women approached me. Despite all of the momentum towards equality guys still make most all of the approaches. It’s ironic but now I’m a “player” which allows me to meet lots of women who find the “player” part attractive in a bad-boy way but also distasteful. My question to them is where were they when I was the nice shy naïve guy in the corner? Come on women - you’re reaping the benefits of equality when it comes to jobs, politics and daily life. Step up and take some initiative and responsibility in the dating scene!
* "Presence" is the best asset for a man in terms of meeting and generating interest from the woman. Granted, for marriage or long term commitment money and other factors come into play but in meeting and establishing attraction presence is at the top. Virtually all romantic unions start in one of two ways. The guy wins over the lady with presence or the guy sets up a situation where he's with the woman for an extended period of time (months) and eventually she accedes to his desires. Guys using the second technique usually lack presence but have money and time. When I started dating I had LOTS of money, no presence, and no dates. After dating for 6 years I have NO money, lots of presence, and can get dates with desirable ladies surprisingly easily. A word of wisdom to the ladies - know which technique your guy is using. If it’s the first be wary of a liar and a cheat but be thankful for the passion and spontaneity. If it’s the second be wary of an insecure control freak but be thankful for the loyalty and the attention.
Good luck to all of you out in the wild world of romance!

1:58 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Mimi said...


Things that are a definite turn-off:


Shorter than me (no, does not have to be tall - just not super short).

Lack of intelligence, character, maturity, integrity, empathy.

What does not matter:

Money. As long as he supports himself, I don't care what he makes.

'Presence'. Don't give a shit about 'presence' - whatever the hell that is.

2:03 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Milwaukee said...

Did you all miss the 400 pound guy who had sat in a chair so long the fabric was fused to his skin? The paramedics had to cut a hole in the WALL to get him out. He urinated and defecated in place, and somebody brought him his meals. Who called the paramedics for him? His girlfriend. Get a dog first. If the dog doesn't like her, dump her.

Myself, if I need conversation I can go out for coffee. If some woman needs me in her life, she can find me. But she better make a good offer.

There are dating websites for millionaires. Good looking women on any dating website get offers. Ugly men increase their dating offers by having more money. So a lot of work is being done which isn't going to change things.

2:17 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger DADvocate said...

we really like gay men.


My ex won't have a hair stylist who isn't a gay man. She's driven as far as 250 miles to have a gay man do her hair. (Believe me, her hair doesn't look any better than anybody else's.)

2:24 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger ScorchedEarth said...

Presence is a vague term. I think it probably means confidence and I think most men aren't rolling in confidence when they are broke and the woman they like is doing much better.

The last woman I was in love with dumped me and said that I didn't have "panache". I really don't know what that means- maybe it means I don't speak French. I replied to her that we dated for months and my panache level was probably evident at an early stage.

Frankly- what "changed" in our relationship is it became more and more evident to her what my socio-economic level was. Especially when I told her I was saving and couldn't swing South America that year.

Note- I hope this doesn't sound rude but I've read a lot of posts about women being perfectly fine with ugly, bald, broke guys. Maybe- but attractive women with decent jobs are not- they want it all just like guys want it all.

2:50 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Tscottme said...

I think it's Roissy that makes the point the ridiculous article is an artifact of the chasm between women's fore-brain, which is the more rational segment, and the hind-brain or the emotional part, which is the gatekeeper of the nether regions.

When women like the author are using their fore-brain they project their qualities onto the men they think they should like. They claim to want a man that is really a woman in a man's body. Their behavior is really quite the opposite, and too often these women won't even notice they think they want one kind of man but date a very different man. In fact, these women will get quite angry if you suggest it's even possible they are attracted to the man the opposite of their description.

I think you see this also with some single moms raising boys. I think you see this with women teachers expecting boys to be like little girls, or they have a mental/behavior problem that must be cured.

3:50 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger GK said...

The article seems contradictory to me. One on hand it claims looks don't matter, then it suggests multiple ways to improve a man's looks.

It could be said -- and I have said it before -- that looking better can make a man FEEL better, and thus enhance the vibe he gives off to women. But don't be fooled -- looks do matter to women.

I actually wrote about this myself and broke down women's initial attraction to men in three ways: non-verbal communication (i.e. presence), verbal communication, and looks. My rough estimate is that looks matter 50 percent, non-verbal stuff 35 percent, and verbal communication 15 percent.

You can see it here:

3:58 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Zorro said...

"Presence" is an album by Led Zeppelin.

This article is crap, and it's about je ne sais quois.

4:06 PM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most everyone here seems to follow the same paradigm:

The men have to line up and do the Bavarian Shoe Dance, whoever does it the best "wins", and the women pick the men out based on their performance.

The "winning" man really gets the prize: He gets to support the picker for the rest of her life, whether her bitching becomes intolerable or not and regardless of what she looks like in 30 years.

The only modern concession is superficial: "Modern" women go to college in the soft sciences and then diddle around after they are married under the pretense that they are pulling half the financial weight in the marriage.


If you want sex AND companionship, both are readily available as a man. The Roissy-type game is just a codification of how things work in the real world.

And if you think that getting married stops women from screwing around, you have to nose around in the real world and find out if that is true.

10:04 PM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Should women be put up on a pedestal and be given everything, up to and including the man's life?

I'd really like to hear from Chivalrous Guys on why that is true.

10:16 PM, June 17, 2011  
Blogger Milwaukee said...

"I gave her my heart but she wanted my soul."

10:30 PM, June 17, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Most everyone here seems to follow the same paradigm:
The men have to line up and do the Bavarian Shoe Dance, whoever does it the best "wins".... The "winning" man really gets the prize: He gets to support the picker for the rest of her life."

The rest of her life? Whoa! Nobody's talking about marriage. It's an article on dating. There's a big difference between the two. A marriage is a lifetime commitment and the central concern of a person's life. A love affair isn't that. It's a relationship of pleasure and when it becomes unpleasurable, it's off. Lighten up.

1:09 PM, June 18, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

7:13 PM, June 18, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, JG. Only men. (Why are guys so obsessed with lesbians?) Yet you can't imagine how many times I've wished I did prefer the ladies. And if you've ever had the chance to closely observe one woman courting another, you know why. It's an exquisitely beautiful dance. Such elegance and grace. Perfect harmony, perfect rhythm, perfect timing – poetry in motion. And all because: perfect understanding. That's why female-female couples form closer bonds than male-female or male-male couples.

But for the record, I'd never give up men, as I adore them far too much. And I don't like women blaming them for every miscommunication in a relationship. Allowances must be made for the fact that they are not women, and that it isn't their fault they don’t understand us. When my friends go on about how unteachably inept communicators they are, I'm reminded of a guy I dated in college and how badly I handled my side of things then blamed him for it.

He was complaining to me about how I spent all my time hanging out with my girlfriends and only hit him up late-night for bootie calls. He had a point. So I explained to him I had emotional needs he just wasn’t fulfilling, and that's why I needed more female companionship than I ordinarily would while in a relationship.

He decided to litigate the point. That actually was a mistake, but an understandable one. He spoke at length, repeating himself many times. Finally I threw my hands up and shouted something like, "You may be man enough for me, but you'll NEVER be woman enough!!" and stormed out of his house, probably slamming the door.

What happened next was inevitable, of course. He was never going to be able to grasp the logic behind my words. He drew what was to him the most obvious conclusion: that I was bi and wanted to have a threesome with him and one of my muff-munching girlfriends. He could not have been more pleased. I could not have been more pissed. To his astonishment, I dumped him with great force and never spoke to him again. It was years before I realized the misunderstanding was my fault.

10:39 AM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Zorro said...

Don't knock lesbians. A man can learn a lot from a good lesbian.

11:02 AM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Joe said...

The more I think about it, the more I think the author of this article is right about a huge swath of women. Saying "presence" is just a politically correct way of saying "wealthy" or "sugar daddy". This is what irritates the likes of Roissy so much since it destroys his silly theories--the bulk of women who are actively looking for men (not already in a relationship or comfortable enough to let them happen when they will) are simply looking for someone else to pay their way in life and give them the things they want and believe they deserve. It's really that simple. Many, if not most, in this category are so desperate, they will fall for anyone who appears to have wealth.

This completely skewers the alpha-male fantasy and "the game." If a man wants to get laid, all he needs to do is 1) have no integrity, 2) have no taste and 3) pretend to be rich. It really is no more sophisticated than that.

(It's much simpler for women; just drop step 3.)

2:26 PM, June 19, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...


I think the Roissy-type theory is that women will marry beta males with money (and maybe even try to avoid sex after they no longer have to), but they will then fuck the alpha males that turn them on.

I don't think that's the complete truth about women, but it hits it a little bit.

Something else I can say (I guess memories from college and the guys around me): Lots and lots and lots of married women fuck around behind the husband's back. The husband pays and pays for her, and I just never understood that.

3:37 PM, June 19, 2011  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sorry, did I only say "lots and lots and lots"?

I guess I meant to say: "lots and lots and lots and lots".

3:38 PM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Milwaukee said...

I sincerely believe my ex-wife was truly disappointed when she found out that infidelity was not in my play book. Once I left her, she quickly found a sleep-over-boyfriend.

The vast majority of divorces are initiated by the wife. I would suspect, as in my case, I had to file because she wouldn't. Whe wanted to be the victim.

4:04 PM, June 19, 2011  
Blogger Peregrine John said...

Greg: Charisma absolutely can be learned. Moreover, it probably should be.

golddigger: I don't mind lesbians, but have little use for them romantically. Can't fathom some guys' fascination with them either.

4:17 PM, June 20, 2011  
Blogger K-Man said...

Deanna Frazier must have misspelled a word. She meant that women want men with presents, as in gifts for her, not "presence".

5:29 PM, June 21, 2011  

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